Originally Posted by Ftoast
Spraying formation is the same I've seen from literally everyone so far besides Crystal Ken B (folks online and even car painters all seem to use a similar format).
Poly; what! I can take advice. ..it just takes a while for me to find somewhere useful to employ it.
Awww....now really. Car Painters aside, I was advocating and illustrating the Duster Method since 2005, way long before anyone else even bothered with advocating anything remotely like it. (...although I did get initiated to adding water...via a Canadian Car Painter on Vancouver Island though.....
) And only then once advanced DIY mixes became as thin as they are. Before that, a 1.6 mm Needle was the smallest that could be effectively used. (ie: The Original Wagner Control Spray - circa 2005)
People around the World have been reading AVS's DIY Screens both before that time and ever since and gleaned their ideas from what they have read / learned. That's just too patently obvious to ignore or discount. So a little specific credit where it is due would be appreciated.
However I cannot say I've seen anyone advocate a 2 Coat process with any mix that was truly thin enough to ever hope to pass through a 0.8 mm Needle. Basically...it's impossible. You had better check your facts...don't depend upon a Seller's description. I say that without fear of contradiction because I speak with / have spoken with the Chief Tech at Wagner / Earlex many times, and it's a totally irrefutable fact that NO Wagner product now in existence possesses a Needle Tip less than 1.8 mm. No question about that can be considered. That's the way it is.
The sheer fact and incident that you were able to apply what you considered an acceptably thick covering in just 2 coats bespeaks the use of at minimum a 1.8 mm tip. Basically....you were led astray by a On-Line Vendor who misquoted or Typo'd an incorrect figure.
I only suggested using this mix WITH the water so far, although it might need to skip water entirely for rolling onto a vertical wall (assuming that even works in the first place with decent results).
With a 1:1 ratio of paint to Poly........I would not suggest that it will, unless a Roller Cover with a ultra smooth nap is used (3/16th) and the application is applied very wet and with minimum "working". Even then the tendency toward Retro-Reflection will jump way up. One other very telling thing to bear in mind is how you do not see anyone suggesting you can get a streak-free finish with Poly using a Roller. The 50% Poly Content still is "too rich" to allow for that, and besides, the rolling of any such mix risks the "Flattened" alignment of the Metallic content at the surface. No....spraying is the only assured method to obtain a truly Flat sheen.
I wish the metallics were all easier to get in larger amounts and around the world.
I'm personally trying to stick to metallics that I can easily find in physical stores which are located all around the US (faster than online for me and easier for others to follow along than small-store local items). So I've been somewhat limited to FolkArt, RalphLauren, and Rustoleum.
Because of the worldwide online availability, I eventually intend to goof around with AAA-fine as well.
I fully understand...but alas few outlets ever keep more than 4-5 bottles in stock. The Internet is about the only source where one get get what quantity one needs, but as you well know, many are loath to go to that trouble. So at times they must hit every available location within their given local. That's how it has rolled since the beginning.....
As far as the AAA-Fine, it's new formula makes it much more like a Mica product...but it's aluminum still creates more issues than advantages if it is used in the amounts you've been trying with Mica -based products. And in reality...it's neither inexpensive nor all that widely available unless one also shops it on the Web.
I've been pretty excited about using the FolkArt specifically because it has provided the smoothest spraying experience (less rough than Rustoleum and less coughy/saggy than RalphLauren/Disney) possibly because of its slightly higher level of gloss compared to those two and faster dry-time. Between that and the poly (or hopefully DeepBase once I've done some testing) the mix is able to lay really smooth and avoid sagging/running even in adverse conditions (cold/wet) and even despite several major screw-ups during the painting process itself (patchy thick/thin areas and having starts and stops and basically everything going wrong).
So I think it's not only cool for the sake of being a particularly dark and aggressive mix with a nicely smooth/round gain-curve, but it's ALSO a really friendly mix to introduce people to spraying because of its fairly ridiculous level of forgiveness.
Ftoast, I can tell ya sumpthin'....it is the very situation your potentially facing with the RL-Disney paints...and before that the Martha Stewart variety that led to the use of the RustOleum. And while nothing in life or Paint Distribution is guaranteed, RustOleum stands a far greater chance of being around for a far longer period.
And offering further clarification, the RustOleum SM is only "rough" when it is not thinned enough and applied in the most optimal manner. I and others have no such results when using a properly thinned mix with a true 1.0 mm Tip.
You cannot expect the use of Deep Base to substitute for the Thinning and Translucent properties of Poly. The latter not having been given enough mention or credit in how it works to improve diffused reflection. I daresay that without it your attempts would have failed to be worth publishing. Going back many years, the original 1:1:1 mix of MMud (1 Part UPW - 1 Part Deep Base - 1 Part Behr White Pearl ) was a very thick, heavy mix. It would roll out just fine....but spraying with even a 2.2 mm Needle was an exercise in going verrrrry
slowly. Proper applied, it was held up against the Stewart StudioTek 100 and a bit later the 130, and found to be wholly comparable (...and crazy less expensive...) But Spraying slowly with consistency was not something the NOOB could easily do right off the bat
The addition of another :1 Part Water to the MMud mix made it truly spray-able, (...bless that Canuck's advice...) nbut it was the substitution of 75% of the Water with a Satin Poly ( and 6 oz Behr Silver Metallic...) that ushered in RS-MaxxMudd, and the realization that yeah....ambient light resistance with no loss of gain was a real possibility.
(BTW... Deep Base is no Thinner or contains no less Titanium White than a UPW....it simply comes with less in the Can so more Tint can be added. I had the same misunderstanding for sometime, and once a fellow AVS / Painter set me straight, the need to use Deep Base became a thing of the past....until recently with the ultra Dark Gray Base I've used in lue of BF Colorant)
If you find yourself with a little free time, grab a tube or two of the FolkArt metallic GunmetalGrey and mix it 1:1:1-1.5:1.5:1 with the matte-polycrylic I'm sure you've already got on-hand and water (that's a half'n'half mix of FA-gunmetal and poly and a 25%-33% thinning with water), and give it a spray onto whatever panel you think a 6oz-10oz amount of paint mix can appropriately cover. It's kind of "freeing" having something be so forgiving and inexpensive yet dark-colored and brightly imaged.
While I appreciate the suggestion, and can understand you own enthusiasm, my doing so would amount to regressing at best, and also be a exercise in trying something I already know will not deliver the degree of performance I demand...and want to refer to others.
I'm sure you've seen both the "Full Wall Screens" I've posted Threads about, both of which are in the least every bit as dark or darker than the Gun Metal Gray, and are comprised of a custom Color Mix (...which I published...) using Glidden Diamond Base 3 (essentially a Deep Base).....Matte Poly, and BFX1I
They both of them neither exhibit the degree of off-axis dimming or limited viewing cone seen in your lit-room, non image examples above. And I noted that the images where you showed the three contrasting samples in ambient light at different viewing angles did not include any projected examples. Had you done so, the results seen as the angle of viewing was increased would have shown the center example to be tremendously attenuated in comparison.
And....I still insist it's not going to be "less expensive" if utilized in the amounts a 1:1:1 mix will require for any screen above 86" diagonal, and almost prohibitively so for 120"ers+ And what about getting all the paint out of all those little bottles? Sheesh...that was always a issue raised by Members. I'd hate to see that revisited.
It'd also be really cool to hear from you whether or not this level of viscosity is appropriate for your gun of choice..although I'd expect it should work for either since your BFX1 was shown to work fine out of the OptiStain.
It will work with your Gun. No chance at all with any gun that sports a finer Needle / Nozzle assembly.
The OptiStain is listed as having an 0.8mm tip online I believe.
I personally like it because it's only $40-$50, commonly available in physical stores (some local hardware stores as well as Walmart), quiet, lightweight, creates very little over-spray or mess, no amputation warning like the atomizer guns warn, and it's pretty easy to clean. I don't have anything against other guns, this just happens to be the one I know and like.
Well I think all the above concerning Tip Size has been settled. You can check yourself though...and easily enough by calling the Chief Tech for Wagner / Earlex @ 888-783-2612
Tell 'em Maurice sent'cha. We go back a'ways.
In the end, you can at least be advised that the Opti-Stain (...or the Standard Control Spray ) can indeed spay out the mix you have with acceptable results....but you will have even better results if you at least increase the number of coats to 4-5 by increasing your speed by a minimum of 2x. You will also be doing others a service by suggesting such, and therein helping them avoid the runs, drips, and sags that they will get once they start spraying screens of normal sizes.