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Easy FolkArt ALR Paintmix

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#1 · (Edited)
Here are some photos of a 98" FolkArt Gunmetal Grey screen.

It looks pretty good in a non-ideal room with a lot of reflective and light-colored surfaces.



It works alright with a few lights on.



It can also perform decently during the day.



This used:
$14 worth of matte poly
$10 worth of FolkArt GunmetalGrey metallic
A little water
These were mixed in a 1:1:1 ratio (about 10oz FolkArt metallic, 10oz matte poly and 10oz water)
A $40-$50 paint sprayer (Wagner Opti-Stain)

It was sprayed onto a ~$10 sheet of ThriftyWhite supported around the back by wood-gluing a few 1x3 poplar boards and made into a very straightforward ZeroEdge style "black" screen.

A screen this dark-colored doesn't always need a ton of projector horsepower hitting it to show a decent image.
I'm using a ~400lm portable (REAL full-color lumen...not exaggerated manufacturer specs). That's less than 14ftL hitting that screen.
However, a brighter projector can help any screen punch through more light and help the image avoid looking dim compared to bright surroundings.



Here are a few comparisons:
That "lighter-colored" sample at bottom/left is CarlsALR...this mix is significantly darker-colored.
For reference, CarlsALR is a similar shade as the CineGrey3D and 5D, the Stewart FirehawkG4, the premade BlackFlame/BFX1 ALR paint and the 8:1GreyTabby DIY mix.
This paint should be more on-par with the DarkEnergyAbyss and StewartPhantomHALR (if anyone is willing to pass on a screen sample of DEA or HALR they are no longer using, feel free to PM me with details)

The samples are (left to right) CarlsALR, Pro-Grey and Pro-White.
The ~150lumen projector is shooting a 6ft-wide image onto a ~0.9gain panel which means about 7ftL is all there is to help the screen fight the lights and lamp.


FolkArt metallic has some EXCELLENT properties:
It's available practically everywhere; Joanne's, Walmart, Amazon..even outside of the USA.
It works amazingly well sprayed, even with my cheapo ($40-$50) Wagner Opti-Stain sprayer, going on smooth and fast with much less visible sagging than other paints and less pitting/bubbling than others.
Because a lot of its pure-state gain seems to be acheived via gloss rather than a lot of metallic/mica, it works best when mixed with a matte-clear (like untinted deep-base) or matte-poly (water-based) which can matte away some of the excessive gloss without concealing the metallic/mica as much as regular paint tends to.

A 1:1 mix of FolkArt metallic "GunmetalGrey" and water-based matte Polyurethane (thinned with about 25%-33% water) works great.
Best of all, despite being one of the darkest-colored mixes I've seen AND hitting around 0.9gain on-axis, it is also VERY clean and smooth-looking.
 

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#2 · (Edited)
Some more details:
aaaand a video showing the Wagner Opti-Stain assembly, mixing, spraying, drying and cleaning..complete with several screw-ups that still led to a nice panel because the mix is so forgiving to spray.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Some pictures and comparisons:

70" television near a 98" Gunmetal+poly screen..using a ~400lumen projector

Is that backdrop a flat grey ? Any flat whites for comparison of that claimed 0.9-1.0 gain figure ? It is impressively dark in room light and bright in comparison to the backdrop, but no white ?
Yes the backdrop is flat-grey (around N7.5 or 0.5gain).

HOW DARE YOU and...and other stuff.
Good point, that was a bit lacking.

First, a lights-on, far off-axis shot to show the sample locations..ProGrey on the left, 1:1FA-gunmetal+poly in the middle, ProWhite on the right and the same ~N7.5 backdrop.



Lights are off for all other on/off-axis shots.
0degrees on-axis: Almost as bright as the 1.0-1.1(claimed)ProWhite.



10degrees off-axis:
Here it's dimmed to roughly match the ProGrey sample's brightness.



15degrees off-axis:
Already starting to dim below the ProGrey.



30degrees off-axis:
By now it has fallen below the ~0.5gain neutral grey backdrop.



45degrees off-axis:



But fear not. Even though gain is obviously falling pretty fast on account of the mix's aggressive nature toward ambient light, that doesn't mean it can't take a bright and colorful image at the front..



..AND also show nearly equally bright and colorful screenshot from far off-axis.

Just wanted to show that ALR off-axis shots without a flat/matte comparison in the shot aren't really showing much at all.


The FA-gunmetal+poly sample is sitting on the box in front of a larger 2:1DeepOnyx panel. Farther to the right is CarlsALR and then ProGrey and finally ProWhite at the farthest right.
 

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#4 ·
Is that backdrop a flat grey ? Any flat whites for comparison of that claimed 0.9-1.0 gain figure ? It is impressively dark in room light and bright in comparison to the backdrop, but no white ?
 
#5 · (Edited)
#8 ·
Yes the backdrop is flat-grey (around N7.5 or 0.5gain).

HOW DARE YOU and...and other stuff.
Good point, that was a bit lacking.
Thanks for adding the white. Don't feel picked on, I complained to MM and AZ when they neglected white comparisons too. BTW, do you have a pony fetish ?:p

That last pic is grainy but it appears to be in room light ?

I've asked about the difference in off-axis viewers and side dimming before, but I am still confused about ALR paints in this respect. You place the small sample at 0 degrees to the projector lens and then take pictures from where viewers might be off to the sides. Is this the same result as if the sample was placed off to the side and the viewer is at 0 degrees ? I know you have taken some pictures with the projector just filling the panel, but it seems like there is such high FL at that point that side dimming is not really noticeable. Using just the small sample from Carl's against my 122" white screen, the effect of sample placement was hard to judge.

I tried to take a picture of my white field lamp uniformity issue last night with a mostly white freeze frame of a commercial on TV. The camera pushed blue that wasn't there and exaggerates the brightness difference for some reason, but it does show the sort of outside edge dimming I would expect from an ALR screen's outside edges when viewed at 0 degrees. Am I correct ?
 

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#6 ·
Does anyone happen to remember if there's an Accutel measurement (or any other measurements) for Flexi-Grey/Pro-Grey?
Part of this mix's gain estimate is based on it being a decent ways brighter on-axis than ProGrey which claims to be a 0.8gain material I believe, but I'm wondering if ProGrey might be a little lower than that.
 
#7 ·
The Amazon page claims 0.8 but one of the reviewers claims 0.7 after direct comparison to multiple other samples. He doesn't claim to have measured with instrumentation, though, which means it is relative to other samples' mfg CLAIMS.
 
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#12 · (Edited)
I'm having trouble imagining how you'd make the curve bow round/eliptical instead of turning harsh and triagular.

Besides the hotspot being off-center, that looks like a good example. Plus actual hotspotting/warmspotting moves around depending where you're viewing from anyway, so it could easily end up a bit off-center in reality.

Also I stole your picture..
 

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#14 · (Edited)
I would venture you have to get / learn better control over whatever camera / phone your using. Your "ambient Light" content images are full of noise and every shot (excepting the two dark room shots in the 3rd post, and the no content, ambient light-off axis shots in post 5) is underexposed, not overexposed. As such they really do not serve to show much else. The dark room shots....you gotta work on those too. (...with more varied, real world content...please) Photography of your examples has always been a weak point. And while you have been quick to analyze and sometimes criticize other much clearer and illustrative efforts as being overexposed or "slightly" misleading, you gotta get your own house in order if your really going to make a concussion effort to show what your efforts are really accomplishing.

(The above critique was offered / intended to help....not belittle)

Good job on the spraying / straining instructions. Something vaguely familiar about them though...can't put my finger on it.....

And using a Matte Poly? Genius !

One thing to point out....the mix as listed involves mixing a small amount (20 oz w/o water - 30 oz w/water) and that is not enough for any but the smallest screens. It also means the 1st attempt must be nailed....perfectly, or the 2nd is not going to compensate for errors or miscues. And and success will depend upon a lot of good fortune.

It also involves sourcing / buying enough small 2 oz Bottles of a particular paint, which can be difficult no matter who carries it.

If one knows to go back and check a variety of Threads & Posts during the Pre- "Micheal's Silver Metallic" era,(2005-2008) the advanced mixes that used metallic paint from Delta Silver and White Pearl started out with the 2 oz sizes. Later 12 oz Bottles were available...for a time. Popularity made both sizes become scarce in Michaels - Hobby Lobby - .....almost anywhere they were sold. Even the Folk Art Sterling Silver (FASS) variety, when desperation called for substitution, became scare if just one end user came in. BAM. Inventory depleted.

Of course very few were painting 86" diagonal screens, so there is that to consider. 4-5 bottles is a far cry from 20-25.

So many went to the Internet. Blick's was one source....a few others were found. But gosh....soon they would get whacked too.

Folk Art has never offered the suggested paint in larger sizes. As such it was not a viable consideration. And....when the 12 oz'er of Delta Silver & Pearl became 1st scarcer then non-existent (Stores dropping Delta)

In my own experience (not opinion) it's is not conducive to assured success among the Masses to suggest that such paints be applied in 2 coats. Nor is the ability of a Spray Gun to lay down heavier coats indicative of the desirability of using one. Nothing can be said against trying to make things easier....but any such attempt takes more R&D than just a small sample. And any such spraying technique as suggested must be scaled up, and my experience shows that trying to get someone to maintain a straight, level line at any consistently accurate distance from the wall over any width greater than 7', (...and manage an accurate drop distance too...) and not lay down too much here and/or too little there.....at 1' - 1.5' per second...................* ......well it isn't going to be successful enough often enough to warrant advocating it as being "easy".

There is more than a few specific reasons a thinner mix applied quicker over several coats is best. Spraying like is mentioned above equates more to getting a heavier coating more akin to rolling. Of course the stated mix above does have a "added water" option, one that when employed suddenly starts to emulate other well know mixes in the lower viscosity realm. That however means that using the correct type sprayer (true small orifice HVLP) and applying it more precisely becomes both desirable and imperative.

There are Electric HVLP guns with finer spray capability than the mentioned Wagner...and they are priced within $10-20.00 on either side. So really, creating a mix / application that calls for the use of a less-than ideal spraying rig / method seems very counter productive.
A Trio of Correct Choices:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F8HI0S8?th=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003VKFDEO/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZBP60/

The mix shows enough promise...it should...it's really not anything new and other nearly identical DIY applications have already worked fine, albeit some showed the same Straight on viewing considerations as listed....yet others much less so. What's Old is New. A truly well known idiom in DIY Screen making. And some did involve using Folk Art exclusively. Mostly just to be different...and not be seen as copycats. I remember that those mixes didn't fare well for long, especially when higher content levels were involved / needed to get results that actually made a difference. Good or bad. In all fairness, one cannot get involved with using metallic's without looking for / stumbling onto paints (& ideas) that have already been used. Of course, as the Author notes, the current batch of FASS seems to be different from the more "grainy" older version. But the use of a dark Gray base w/ Poly added to attenuate the overly aggressive reflect'ivity of the FASS....now that might be construed as being new, since very few ever managed to get acceptable results when using FASS as just an addition to a base paint alone.

In closing....DIY'er must accept at least a certain "buy in price point" when attempting to make a surface that will perform better and more effective than a Matte White or Flat Neutral Gray. Absolutely we all want more for less. But giving out "Reality Checks" must be part and parcel to giving out correct and good advice as well.

Post note:
Several YouTube and Ebay Screen Mixes use formulas close to the one within, except few have tried it so "darkly". But there are some...and the same advantages & issues that plague their results are manifest in here. Plenty of Metallic-induced enhancement....poor ALR ability except within a narrow viewing cone...and often restricted PJ placement considerations when the painted surface really had significant ALR ability due to strong Retro-or Angular reflect'ivity.
Yeah, I need to remember to use the low ISO and hold steady for cleaner shots instead of using the auto-ISO...or start carrying a second/better camera. The low ISO is smoother/less-grainy but blurs really easily if I'm standing on sailer legs.

Spraying formation is the same I've seen from literally everyone so far besides Crystal Ken B (folks online and even car painters all seem to use a similar format).
Poly; what! I can take advice. ..it just takes a while for me to find somewhere useful to employ it. ;)

I only suggested using this mix WITH the water so far, although it might need to skip water entirely for rolling onto a vertical wall (assuming that even works in the first place with decent results).

I wish the metallics were all easier to get in larger amounts and around the world.
I'm personally trying to stick to metallics that I can easily find in physical stores which are located all around the US (faster than online for me and easier for others to follow along than small-store local items). So I've been somewhat limited to FolkArt, RalphLauren, and Rustoleum.

Because of the worldwide online availability, I eventually intend to goof around with AAA-fine as well.

I've been pretty excited about using the FolkArt specifically because it has provided the smoothest spraying experience (less rough than Rustoleum and less coughy/saggy than RalphLauren/Disney) possibly because of its slightly higher level of gloss compared to those two and faster dry-time. Between that and the poly (or hopefully DeepBase once I've done some testing) the mix is able to lay really smooth and avoid sagging/running even in adverse conditions (cold/wet) and even despite several major screw-ups during the painting process itself (patchy thick/thin areas and having starts and stops and basically everything going wrong).
So I think it's not only cool for the sake of being a particularly dark and aggressive mix with a nicely smooth/round gain-curve, but it's ALSO a really friendly mix to introduce people to spraying because of its fairly ridiculous level of forgiveness.

If you find yourself with a little free time, grab a tube or two of the FolkArt metallic GunmetalGrey and mix it 1:1:1-1.5:1.5:1 with the matte-polycrylic I'm sure you've already got on-hand and water (that's a half'n'half mix of FA-gunmetal and poly and a 25%-33% thinning with water), and give it a spray onto whatever panel you think a 6oz-10oz amount of paintmix can appropriately cover. It's kind of "freeing" having something be so forgiving and inexpensive yet dark-colored and brightly imaged.
It'd also be really cool to hear from you whether or not this level of viscosity is appropriate for your gun of choice..although I'd expect it should work for either since your BFX1 was shown to work fine out of the OptiStain.

The OptiStain is listed as having an 0.8mm tip online I believe.
I personally like it because it's only $40-$50, commonly available in physical stores (some local hardware stores as well as Walmart), quiet, lightweight, creates very little over-spray or mess, no amputation warning like the atomizer guns warn, and it's pretty easy to clean. I don't have anything against other guns, this just happens to be the one I know and like.
 
#13 · (Edited)
...just sayin'

I would venture you have to get / learn better control over whatever camera / phone your using. Your "ambient Light" content images are full of noise and every shot (excepting the two dark room shots in the 3rd post, and the no content, ambient light-off axis shots in post 5) is underexposed, not overexposed. As such they really do not serve to show much else. It doesn't seem your "ambient light" shots are very much more than low ambient light. Why is that? The dark room shots....you gotta work on those too. (...with more varied, real world content...please) Photography of your examples has always been a weak point. And while you have been quick to analyze and sometimes criticize other much clearer and illustrative efforts as being overexposed or "slightly" misleading, you gotta get your own house in order if your really going to make a conscious effort to show what your efforts are really accomplishing.

(The above critique was offered / intended to help....not belittle)

Good job on the spraying / straining instructions. Something vaguely familiar about them though...can't put my finger on it.....

And using a Matte Poly? Genius !

One thing to point out....the mix as listed involves mixing a small amount (20 oz w/o water - 30 oz w/water) and that is not enough for any but the smallest screens. It also means the 1st sprayed coat attempt must be nailed....perfectly, or the 2nd is not going to compensate for errors or miscues. And any success will depend upon a lot of good fortune.

It also involves sourcing / buying enough small 2 oz Bottles of a particular paint, which can be difficult no matter who carries it.

If one knows to go back and check a variety of Threads & Posts during the Pre- "Micheal's Silver Metallic" era,(2005-2008) the advanced mixes that used metallic paint from Delta Silver and White Pearl started out with the 2 oz sizes. Later 12 oz Bottles were available...for a time. Popularity made both sizes become scarce in Michaels - Hobby Lobby - .....almost anywhere they were sold. Even the Folk Art Sterling Silver (FASS) variety, when desperation called for substitution, became scare if just one end user came in. BAM. Inventory depleted.

Of course very few were painting 86" diagonal screens, so there is that to consider. 4-5 bottles is a far cry from 20-25.

So many went to the Internet. Blick's was one source....a few others were found. But gosh....soon they would get whacked too.

Folk Art has never offered the suggested paint in larger sizes. As such it was not a viable consideration. And....when the 12 oz'er of Delta Silver & Pearl became 1st scarcer then non-existent (Stores dropping Delta)

In my own experience (not opinion) it's is not conducive to assured success among the Masses to suggest that such paints be applied in 2 coats. Nor is the ability of a Spray Gun to lay down heavier coats indicative of the desirability of using one. Nothing can be said against trying to make things easier....but any such attempt takes more R&D than just a small sample. And any such spraying technique as suggested must be scaled up, and my experience shows that trying to get someone to maintain a straight, level line at any consistently accurate distance from the wall over any width greater than 7', (...and manage an accurate drop distance too...) and not lay down too much here and/or too little there.....at 1' - 1.5' per second...................* ......well it isn't going to be successful enough often enough to warrant advocating it as being "easy".

There is more than a few specific reasons a thinner mix applied quicker over several coats is best. Spraying like is mentioned above equates more to getting a heavier coating more akin to rolling. Of course the stated mix above does have a "added water" option, one that when employed suddenly starts to emulate other well know mixes in the lower viscosity realm. That however means that using the correct type sprayer (true small orifice HVLP) and applying it more precisely becomes both desirable and imperative.

There are Electric HVLP guns with finer spray capability than the mentioned Wagner...and they are priced within $10-20.00 on either side. So really, creating a mix / application that calls for the use of a less-than ideal spraying rig / method seems very counter productive.
A Trio of Correct Choices:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F8HI0S8?th=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003VKFDEO/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZBP60/

The mix shows enough promise...it should...it's really not anything new and other nearly identical DIY applications have already worked fine, albeit some showed the same Straight on viewing considerations as listed....yet others much less so. What's Old is New. A truly well known idiom in DIY Screen making. And some did involve using Folk Art exclusively. Mostly just to be different...and not be seen as copycats. I remember that those mixes didn't fare well for long, especially when higher content levels were involved / needed to get results that actually made a difference. Good or bad. In all fairness, one cannot get involved with using metallic's without looking for / stumbling onto paints (& ideas) that have already been used. Of course, as the Author notes, the current batch of FASS seems to be different from the more "grainy" older version. But the use of a dark Gray base w/ Poly added to attenuate the overly aggressive reflect'ivity of the FASS....now that might be construed as being new, since very few ever managed to get acceptable results when using FASS as just an addition to a base paint alone.

In closing....DIY'er must accept at least a certain "buy in price point" when attempting to make a surface that will perform better and more effective than a Matte White or Flat Neutral Gray. Absolutely we all want more for less. But giving out "Reality Checks" must be part and parcel to giving out correct and good advice as well.

Post note:
Several YouTube and Ebay Screen Mixes use formulas close to the one within, except few have tried it so "darkly". But there are some...and the same advantages & issues that plague their results are manifest in here. Plenty of Metallic-induced enhancement....poor ALR ability except within a narrow viewing cone...and often restricted PJ placement considerations when the painted surface really had significant ALR ability due to strong Retro-or Angular reflect'ivity.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Tried to organize the first posts a little better and completed most of the experimenting I planned on doing. Hopefully things are a little neater now..though I'm totally open to critiques for making it easier to get through.

It's looking like FolkArt metallic makes a better sprayed mix than just about any other metallic but a poorer rolled mix than just about any other metallic..so I can highly recommend spraying this but caution against rolling unless you're doing it for kicks instead of use.

I'm VERY happy with how well the same 1:1 metallic and poly (thinned with about 30%water) mixes work using the SterlingSilver or Pearl metallics either alone or mixed with the Gunmetal..The lighter metallic colors have slightly higher concentrations of metallic/mica which leads to slightly higher gain AND they can be used to lighten the surface-color to create less aggressive screens that look amazingly clean and uniform while still fighting a decent amount of ambient light.
I have also noticed the Pearl and Sterling FA metallics seem to use less pigment which leaves the mixes a little more translucent..which could present a problem if applied over a very dark surface.

Further dilluting the metallic with even higher amounts of matte water-based poly drops gain suprisingly less than I'd expect, but the lack of color-coverage gets in the way of allowing the user the cover larger areas with fewer tubes of FolkArt.
 
#18 ·
Tried to organize the first posts a little better and completed most of the experimenting I planned on doing. Hopefully things are a little neater now..though I'm totally open to critiques for making it easier to get through.
Well, shucks. It does seem more organized now, but I can't remember what it looked like before, so ...

I do think the larger panel shot in the first post is an excellent addition. That crowd shot was obviously chosen to show off the darks with the lamp so close by, but I'd like to see a shot with a mix of lighter colors. Like these from Aeon Flux





The last one especially should be a good test of keeping true the variations and details in both whites and blacks side by side.

Also, your video doesn't make it clear what measurements of what components you are using. Did you already have poly in the cup and then added water to it, and then the FA Gunmetal or was that a darker FA ? And the spitting the gun did was not apparent in the end result ?
 
#19 · (Edited)
That IS a nice screenshot for showing both shadow and highlight details at once..consider it stolen.


I was about to add in the mix used in the video until I rememered it was one of the SequinBlack tests which I consider to all be failures for all but the brightest projectors on the most modest-sized screens (we're talking 70" screens for Epson 2040 and Benq 2050 extreme low gain)..Granted, for that small niche they'd have an image that's bright on a screen as black as their Blueray player.

I believe the order in the video was; poly, then water, then FA SequinBlack..I want to say that was the 3:1:2 mix of metallic : poly : water which has a somewhat glossy sheen from too little poly being used.

Nope, the panel still turned out smooth and uniform with an image on it after the second coat...which was interrupted by the panel curling so hard it ripped itself loose from the tape because it was too cold that night. Had to grab more tape and then restart the second coat. It was pretty ridiculous.
The gun started spitting because I used too little paint which had the gun sucking air (when kept slightly tilted in the cup's straw direction you can use as little as 1oz of mix in that gun for a little panel, but tilting away from the straw or using less will cause it to start sucking air and sputtering).

That bigger panel (using the 1:1:1 mix of Gunmetal : Poly : water) was also sprayed during a colder night and I sprayed the first coat WAY too slow so it started sagging down the slippery front-side of the thrifty-white until I attacked it with the blow-dryer for a little while. I made sure to spray the second coat at a thinner ~1ft/sec and 10"-12"distance and blow-dried it for a minute or two and then ran out of paint right away while trying to start a third coat.
I was using only 0.55ounces of mix per square-foot of panel at the time so the overly thick first coat and some later goofing around took too much paint for there to be a third coat..so I called it "done" and it still turned out great.
 

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#20 ·
That IS a nice screenshot for showing both shadow and highlight details at once..consider it stolen.
Happy to help !

That sunlight is just murder. I suspect in anything less extreme the screen does not lose the details in the folds of her white outfit or the details of the various textures in her black tactical outfit ? I realize it is kind of amazing to even have an image in that kind of lighting, but come on ...

I thought the FA in the video looked awful dark, but your Gunmetal screen is pretty dark, too, so I wasn't sure. Based on your gain estimates for combinations of various FAs, I think I'd look to mix some Pearl and Gunmetal to keep gain above 1.0 while remaining relatively dark. I am kind of enthralled with the idea of surprising guests with how dark a screen can be and still be nice and bright in use. And if it still isn't bright enough for 2.40:1 use at 11' wide, there is still the reverse side to do with just Pearl-Poly on a white base, right ?

I actually read the entire S-I-L-V-E-R thread last night and it looked promising for high-gain until I found out the Behr Faux Glaze is off the market and nobody ever confirmed a substitute. Your use of the matte poly seems like it does the same as the faux glaze did, but MM told someone in that thread that poly or even a different glaze was not a good substitute.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Muhuahahaha
A somewhat ridiculous experiment turned out to be a complete success in ways I didn't dare hope for.

Coming soon; black with around 1.0gain.

EDIT:
Well, poo. It looks like the only way this will work is with a pretty high amount of SequinBlack which kind of ruins the fun.
The experiment that worked was replacing the poly with RalphLauren or Disney/Glidden metallic (un-tinted) which seems to leave the GunMetal the same color but sadly lightens the SequinBlack noticeably.
I guess it's alright as the higher gain at these levels of darkness should really require a long throw-ratio and be pretty limiting to the viewing-cone anyway..still wanted to see it work though.
On the bright side, switching out the poly for the untinted metallic DOES let anyone looking to make a lighter-colored mix (SterlingSilver and/or PearlWhite or a light mix of Pearl and Gunmetal and Sterling) have some crazy high gain along with it.

The RL/Disney metallic dries slower than the poly and the FA metallic, so the RL/Disney is a bit less forgiving for spraying, but it still isn't bad as long as your space is warm and you make sure the last two or three coats all go on really thin/fast/light...and attacking the wet coats with a blow-dryer helps too.
 
#24 ·
I still prefer how the gunmetal works.
The black mix loses some of the forgiving nature of the Gunmetal+Poly mix AND the black naturally dims more as you move toward the sides. It's more a proof of concept than something I'd suggest for most folks whereas the GunMetal is something I'd definitely suggest for anyone who needs a very aggressive mix that they can spray onto a smooth surface.

Are you actually going to give the gunmetal a try?
Do you have a smooth surface (or wall) picked out and some water-based matte polyurethane and a blow-dryer...and a sprayer than works well for very thin paint?
Sorry about the question flood. I'm just excited to see someone else who might take a crack at this too.
If you were just joking...whoops. :D
 
#28 · (Edited)
I'm most of the way done with a 98" Gunmetal FolkArt screen and liking how it looks so far despite needing at least five coats of paint because four very light coats were needed to try and cover the first super runny coating. That first paint you put on bare ThriftyWhite tries to slide right off, lol.

Sadly the little runs/drips actually ended up with some texture at their ends so I may decide to give this whole thing a super light sanding and then a couple more quick coats.
Luckily the 24oz of thinned paint seems more than enough for this 30ft-square screen.

 

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#29 ·
Would spraying an unthinned coat of primer first be better than trying the mix directly on the thrifty, or would that throw away the smoothness of the final surface ? Maybe just a light sanding of the thrifty instead of primer would be enough to give the thinned mix something to bite ?
 
#30 · (Edited)
Paint or primer after a bit of sanding should be smooth enough I think, but just roughing up the malamine might work too.
I didn't really think I'd NEED either since my previous panel worked fine..though it might've been too cold while I was spraying this one.

I added pictures to the previous post.

EDIT:
There's also a decent chance that this malamine panel was dirty and a little greasy while I sprayed it..I totally forgot to clean it before painting. D:
 
#32 ·
I've done numerous TWH applications with water-thinned mixes with no issues. Of course I was using the correct sized Needle (smaller droplets dry faster / shrink and flatten more, and resist blending into a "run" ) and proper Dusting technique, along with a forced air Heater &/or Fan.

There is no replacement or alternative to doing things in a proven and disciplined manner when working with something that borders on being a unusual application, and working with such liquefied paints certainly applies.
 
#34 ·
Prepping a melamine surface enough to actually give it "tooth" will mean scratching it, and that is certainly not want you want to do.

It should be wiped clean using a alcohol-based spray (Windex Pro) to remove any Grease or Film. Or simply wiped clean using soap and water. But that is all.

Now ideally one could Duster-apply a special Primer such as Glidden Gripper.....about 3 coats minimum. Of course that takes a bit of the easy spontaneity out of the equation.

No....what needs to be done is this:

1st Coat is a exceedingly light Duster. with sparsely applied droplets that are let dry completely before proceeding.
2nd Coat goes on identically the same.
3rd Coat Ditto

Those three spotty coats then act like the needed "Teeth", turning the overly slippery surface into something with more traction.

After those 3 coats, continue to lightly Dust until complete coverage is accomplished. Rush things by applying paint too thickly and your ripe for issues. Do it right as outlined and there will be NO issues....at all. :cool:

One still needs to Dust...and one absolutely should not get overconfident and rush the time interval between coatings. As stated in Ftoast's previous post, going so far as to try to create as ideal a spraying situation helps tremendously. One need not have a room's heat level at "Earl Schieb Infrared Baking" levels....68-70 degrees will work. 75 degrees all the more so. 80 degrees +? Now your cookin'! :p

Trying to paint in high humidity / low temperatures has always been a no-no, even for any painting with normal paints....even when using Rollers. Using a "clean" Pole or Box Fan placed above the Floor and set to medium speed & pointed directly toward the surface from approx 8' is all that is needed if the room temp is 68+ degrees and proper Dusting technique is employed.

* Upping the Room's temperature by using the Central Heat between Coats is what I do when possible.
(Winter-time Garage Painters have problems doing so....so without bothering to use a space heater, not much can be done /suggested to help)

* The Ideal Way:

  • Start by closing Registers in other rooms to increase air output in the room being used
  • Run the HVAC until a desired room Temp is reached (80 degrees is optimal)
  • Turn Heat Off and WAIT for the HVAC Fan to stop blowing air
  • Spray
  • Turn On whatever Fan you have. Make sure it is Clean (no Dust build-up on the Blades or Grill)
  • After 5 minutes, turn on the Heat again
  • After 15-20 minutes the Screen will be dry....turn off the Heat and resume spraying
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using the method outlined above, and at a room temperature of 80 degrees +, it is possible to apply 8 ultra thin Duster Coats in just over 2.5 hours. Slightly cooler spaces...3 hours. Is it any wonder that I go to the trouble to tent-out a room when spraying a screen, eh? Taking as many of the environmental conditions out of play makes one's creative life much more easier. One very special added benefit of using a heater / HVAC....it dries out the air.

Basically...you can follow these directions and be absolutely assured of success...each and every single time.
......................................................................or not. And suffer the potential consequences.

These directions apply to all Duster Spraying on all surfaces....they just happen to also be the ONLY way to get consistently perfect results using TWH.

But suppose'n ya gotta spray in a Garage...with no heat....no Fan....during Fall Monsoon season.

Ultra light Dusters and no-rush sufficient dry times are your only recourse. And under such conditions, at least borrow a couple Space heaters.

Sheesh. :rolleyes:
 
#35 ·

Using the method outlined above, and at a room temperature of 80 degrees +, it is possible to apply 8 ultra thin Duster Coats in just over 2.5 hours. Slightly cooler spaces...3 hours. Is it any wonder that I go to the trouble to tent-out a room when spraying a screen, eh? Taking as many of the environmental conditions out of play makes one's creative life much more easier. One very special added benefit of using a heater / HVAC....it dries out the air.
I know I was amazed at how warm my kitchen got when I tented it in plastic to protect the cabinets when doing drywall patch work on the ceiling. And that was just using LED can lights. When working in the garage I use a halogen work light which is practically a space heater all by itself. So people who don't want to go out and buy a "space heater" just for this purpose in the garage should ask themselves how many work lights and cheap plastic tenting can they emplace to create a much better spraying environment. Good advice on cleaning the dust from the fan blades. I just wish the manufacturers made it easier to get at them instead of putting two dozen screws to get the finger guards off.
 
#36 ·
Good points from both if you. I'll certainly try whatever I can if I end up with space to spray indoors again.

Here's the finished borderless screen BTW:



It works pretty well despite using a 150lumen projector at 1.35:1 throw-ratio.
 

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#39 ·
Good points from both if you. I'll certainly try whatever I can if I end up with space to spray indoors again.

Here's the finished borderless screen BTW:



It works pretty well despite using a 150lumen projector at 1.35:1 throw-ratio.
That looks good in person ?? It seems like the projector is horribly out of focus to me. The rest of the room is in focus, but the screen images just blurry brown and blurry black. Your pics of the previous small scrap screen didn't have that problem, so I assume it is an out of focus projector, yes ? If that is "Fury" is looks hopelessly muddled for a daytime shot.
 
#37 ·
Yes, it seems to...but none of the images you show tend to illustrate what the actual surface looks like, or the degree, if any....of metallic presence.

I think it would be somewhat mandatory to compose your images showing the position of the projector itself. That should represent no problem

Also a couple of Macros of the painted surface with & without an image present.

There is a "please" included....of course! :)
 
#38 · (Edited)
That second attachment above your post does show the projector's position..it's a small projector, you might've missed it. ;)

Good idea about the texture, that's something you don't see compared too often nowadays.

This picture does NOT accurately show the color-difference between these samples, JUST the texture/grain difference.


For those who don't know:
-Carl's Silver material has enough visual texture that many people find the sample off-putting,
-Carl's ProGrey/ProWhite has a physical texture that can be troublesome for painting on but is generally considered a non-issue for regular use,
-Carls FlexiGrey/FlexiWhite is a very smooth material that's considered good for both painting AND basically invisible as a stand-alone screen.

As a subjective comparison:
the 1:1FA-Gunmetal : Poly in-person is just a touch more visible than the ProGrey/ProWhite to me, while the 1:1FA-Sterling : Poly is about as invisible as the FlexiGrey/FlexiWhite.

Hope that helps.
 

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#44 · (Edited)
It's looking like a 4:1mix of Pearl:Gunmetal is about the same as Sterling..maybe just a little darker-colored than Sterling.

A 2:1mix of Pearl:Gunmetal or a 1:1:1mix of Pearl:Sterling:Gunmetal seems to hit a nice point centered visually between Gunmetal and Sterling alone...landing close to the shade of CarlsALR or a little darker.

Keeping in mind that Sterling alone is already darker-colored than Carl's ProGrey/FlexiGrey and so is almost any mix of a little Gunmetal with a lot of Pearl...practically ANY mix of these FolkArt paints besides Pearl alone will result in a screen that's darker-colored than ProGrey/FlexiGrey AND higher gain (typically a little over 1.0gain).

If your local Michael's/Joanne's or Walmart only has a couple of each FolkArt metallic, grabbing two of each (Pearl/Sterling/Gunmetal) and mixing the ~12oz of metallic with 12oz of water-based matte poly and 11oz-12oz water will let you cover a 48square-foot surface (around 125"-130") with a positive-gain screen that's slightly darker-colored than BlackFlameX1 or CarlsALR.
If you prefer a lighter-colored and less aggressive screen you can simply trade away some Gunmetal in exchange for more Pearl and/or Sterling.

With about $25 of paint which dries fast and smooth for extra-easy spraying of fast/light coats or dusters.
Plus the mixes are very forgiving of using too much or too little poly, so tedious super-careful measuring isn't a big worry either. :D


I plan to try painting onto a roll of plastic, next. My 98" panel screen is a pain to move around, and I'd prefer a light-weight screen that I can just roll onto a poster-tube and toss in a corner.
 
#45 ·
If your local Michael's/Joanne's or Walmart only has a couple of each FolkArt metallic, grabbing two of each (Pearl/Sterling/Gunmetal) and mixing the ~12oz of metallic with 12oz of water-based matte poly and 11oz-12oz water will let you cover a 48square-foot surface (around 125"-130") with a positive-gain screen that's slightly darker-colored than BlackFlameX1 or CarlsALR.
If you prefer a lighter-colored and less aggressive screen you can simply trade away some Gunmetal in exchange for more Pearl and/or Sterling.
Michael's was close to dinner so I picked up two bottles each of Gunmetal and Pearl tonight. They didn't have a matte Poly, so I will have to go to Lowe's or HD and get some Rustoleum Matte Poly as well as framing materials for the 5x3 test panel I plan to play with. I will stretch the "black denim" I bought over the frame and spray that like a painter's canvas. I am curious how that will work as a substrate. I don't expect to have the problem with runs you did on TW melamine or as you might spraying a plastic you can roll up. If I like it, that 5x3 panel might end up in my bedroom someday. I only intend to make 12oz of Gunmetal and a separate 12oz of Pearl White and test each separately.

I came across some of your comments on the Carl's ALR thread from early in the year about how orientation changed the viewing cone on the ALR material. Have you ever noticed any difference orientation makes on these painted panels ? It would be weird if spraying a vertical fan across the surface you get a different lay of mica than a horizontal fan painting with vertical passes.

I also read all the talk about angle of projection vs viewer, etc. and admit I had not though about it. My W1070 is still sitting on my couch next to me while I work on my new room. So it is only about 10" lower than my eye level tilting down to hit the bottom of the screen 6" LOWER than that. Yet I've not noticed trapezoid that exceeds my 2" velvet border. At any rate, the projection angle and angle to my eyes is nothing like what it will be when properly ceiling mounted with the screen 6" below lens. In my pictures of Carl's samples, the camera was only about 12" above the lens and close to on-axis horizontally. What all this means, I have no idea, but your warning about angles is just another reason to build a panel large enough for me to really see anything. In fact, the 5' length will let me rotate it and sit within my Vutec frame covering 1/3rd of the width of my white screen at a time, so I'll see what it looks like to left and right of center as well as on-axis.
 
#46 · (Edited)
The orientation/rotation effect on gain-slope of CarlsALR is somewhat subtle (I found it immediately visible upon comparison but the company itself didn't realize it..so it's there but not night'n'day), and a rolled metallic screen does show an even smaller though still present change from orientation as far as I've seen, but I haven't noticed a visible change from rotating a sprayed sample.
I would say "no" to that causing a noticeable difference by my findings so far, but I DO find a horizontal spraying pattern to be a little easier personally.

I'm sure you've already heard me warn about this, but I'm quite certain the denim/material's natural texture from its round threads will significantly lower the paint's gain..not that you can't or shouldn't try it for a test, I'm just warning of what I've noticed seems to happen.

Once your projector is ceiling-mounted and your pictures are taken from around seating distance and seated head-height I do think the brightness/gain from all your samples should improve quite a lot. Right now most of their gain is aimed toward the ceiling or above the seats instead of your seated head-height.
 
#47 ·
I'm sure you've already heard me warn about this, but I'm quite certain the denim/material's natural texture from its round threads will significantly lower the paint's gain..not that you can't or shouldn't try it for a test, I'm just warning of what I've noticed seems to happen.
Well, I'll paint a scrap of cardboard as well to see the difference. If you remember, I was disappointed in the denim because it is thin. As in, thinner than a bedsheet, thinner than any dress shirt I ever owned much less any denim shirt. It has about as much texture as a 400 thread count bedsheet and less texture than the smooth side of Carl's BOC. I wasn't disappointed in its texture but in its potential fragility when I was expecting something heavy like jeans material that would have needed several rolled layers of unthinned primer to smooth it prior to painting with these thin mixtures.

What do you think of cutting a slot all the way around the edge of a wooden frame to use with screen spline to hold material in ? I think if I tilt the blade on my table saw just a tad to get a wider bottom using two passes 1/2" deep it will function the same as screen tight without the need to attach screen tight on the back side. It just seems so much more forgiving than staples.
 
#48 ·
Dreamer,

You seem determine to try to paint onto the Denim Cloth. I will be more succinct:

Bad Idea. Poor Test with Poor results. A waste of Time & Money.

It's a case where I'd not mind being proven wrong, but I myself wouldn't bother knowing there are other far better substrates to use.

BTW...Carls Flexi-White is the Cloth substrate to use......
 
#49 ·
I really like the sound of cutting your own screen-tite spline slot into the frame.
I'm worried it'll start out rough and need some sanding in order to avoid making a rip/run in the material being splined into it, and it sounds kind of tricky to sand into a small gap like that.
But, if you can make it work it should be really clean and low-profile..and save some money too.

I admit that I forgot what you mentioned earlier about the cloth. I doubt it'll end up making enough difference, but it's not like you're doing it with wide bright smiles only for a crushing let-down. It's a test..a longshot, but it's not going to break your wallet nor spirit so there's little harm.
Plus it gives you something to possibly test the built-in slot idea, so that's cool regardless of whether the material/surface works out or not.
 
#50 ·
Ftoast, sorry for the late. I´m outside North America, passed 31 days to FA gunmetal arrives in my home and sorry for my english.

It´s very hard "impossible" to find Water-Poly in my country. i had to use flat deep base for tests, in this test is used a very small mdf piece with 2 mix:
Left (1 part FA Gunmetal; 1 part Flat-Matte Base; 1 part Water)
Right (1 part FA Gunmetal; 1 part Flat-Matte Base; 1 part Water and a small quantity matte white)

Note1: Room is dark, 20% of time i will use with this ambient light (PIC1) and 80% night time, no light.

(PIC1 - Projector Off / low ambient light)


(PIC2 - Projector On / low ambient light / sample white image)


(PIC3 - Projector On / low ambient light / sample image)


(PIC4 - Projector On / low ambient light / sample image (Black level is f*k amazing comparing with poor White Screen :D))


(PIC5 - Projector On / Full ambient light / sample image (Can´t see nothing, poor projector :()

Note2: My primary objective is increase black level more than ALR use, my projector has low contrast.
(using this easy folk art mix this objective is 100% done, the black levels are absolutely fantastic)

Questions:
1. Is there a way (mix) to mantain this black and optimize the white?
2. Comparing with Ftoast pictures i can´t see anything here with ambient light, not even 1% lol:D. The problem with ambient light is my projector, mdf, mix?

Specs:
-Optoma HD65 DLP Projector
-117" White matte screen
-Throw distance ~13ft (ceiling mount)

Thanks for the help :)
 
#53 · (Edited)
Thanks for the pictures and writing back. I'm glad you're still here even though the paints are harder to get where you are.

Two or three different things are probably hurting things right now.

Is there a safe way for you to hang or lean the sample closer to the center of the white screen?
All dark-colored paint mixes will dim the image toward the edges of the screen enough to show a big difference compared to a white screen (mississippi will deny it, but the few times he's shown his own mixes against a white screen you can see his mixes dimming toward the side positions). Although moving to the top or bottom of the screen isn't as dark as moving to the far left/right sides, it'll still be darker than the middle area should be.
Normally the difference between the center and the sides isn't big enough to see with your bare eyes once it's a full screen without the white screen being there to show how different they are. That's why you don't usually hear people complaining about their ALR screens being dimmer at the sides/edges, they won't notice unless they compare the sides/edges against a white screen or white sample.

Did you paint onto a white-colored MDF panel or bare wood or a darker-colored panel?
Because this mix is so translucent, painting onto a white surface is almost always better and brighter than painting it onto a dark-colored surface.
If your sample's surface was dark-colored, I'd try spraying the un-used back of it with white paint (make sure it's smooth first) and THEN spray the mix onto the white sample using several very thin coats.

I just recently found out that even Walmart is selling matte water-based poly. It doesn't say anything about being water-based on the can, BUT you'll see that it says "soap and water clean-up" instead of requiring paint-thinner to clean. The untinted deep-base will work alright, but matte-poly dries smoother and a little nicer.
If you're able to find Matte-Finish poly at any stores, it's very likely water-based (I haven't yet seen a matte-finish oil-based poly), so take a quick look at the can to see if it also says "soap and water clean-up. ...if you'd like to try this with poly.

Adding some FolkArt metallic Pearl and/or metallic SterlingSilver is better than adding a little flat/matte-white to the mix. Either one will lighten the color of the mix a little (or a lot if you add a lot), but the matte-white will also dim the gain.
If you've got a local water-based metallic that you'd like to try adding, that would also be better than adding matte-white or any other flat/matte paint.


Sorry about all that. Mostly I want to know if your sample was white or dark-brown before you painted it, and see if you'd be able to safely hang or balance the sample closer to the screen's center for a picture or two.
Seeing the sample closer to the center (as flat against the screen as you can make it and viewed from about the same spot as these pictures you've posted already) will help me know if your sample ended up dimmer than mine or if it's dimming more noticably toward the edges than mine have been.
 
#51 ·
The existing screen? Not intended for ambient light...at all.
The Mix? Well it should be able to improve Blacks....it's doing so by attenuating all light that hits the Sample's surface. All light, including the light you want to preserve at a higher level.

That is the trick... actually Improve Blacks without crushing Whites and Colors....which is unfortunately what is seen happening. Not only that but shadow detail would be non existent on a full sized screen. Of course one issue is the sample sizing....unless you offered up a number of shots with the Samples positioned in varied locations, there is actually not a lot to go on.

Water based Clear or Satin Floor Floor Finish is what most find to use in the EU.

But the Gunmetal......IMHO it's not even close to what you want. The only way to salvage the paint you have would be to add at least 15% more White Base (not Deep Base) and get some Pearl Metallic (20%) in there. Do not add anymore Silver lest it further darken your Mix.

If you cannot locate what you need, just ask and perhaps someone on here might get some to you.
 
#52 ·
Thanks MississippiMan, fast reply :)

I did more tests, the throw distance and maybe the lumens make big difference here. Reduced the throw to 8ft the white is now ~80% better and the black level still there... and the ALR now works fine (now i see Harley in daylight :D:D)

Maybe my current setup "projector" is not good for ALR, is a old (1600lumens 4000:1 projector) and ~13ft throw projection don´t help too much.

Anyway thanks for the help, and yes i will do the tests did you passed (White Base and Pearl Metallic), like i said my intention is increase the black level and this FA mix did a very good job.

Let's moving forwards ;)
 
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