DIY Aluminum paint rolls well. . . but. . . - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 514 Old 09-09-2003, 01:57 PM
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ps. "sprays latex", and what we are after in a screen paint job are different animals. I have painted a few houses with latex and what's called a "paint pot" - feeds paint to gun under pressure. What I was shooting acceptably onto a house would NOT do for a screen. Simple truth is that a fine mist spray requires a VERY thin watery material. Latex is NOT thin. You read the directions and it says "do not overthin" and it scares people. YOU HAVE TO THIN THIN THIN. Forget the mfgr. They are making wall paint, not screen paint. They worry about film strength, washability, durability etc etc etc - not things we are going to concern ourselves with. I'd say a 1.5 mm tip (usually how GOOD guns define tip size, in mm not decimals) is the smallest you could live with - works good for me... but I THIN !

I'll try and work up a good post on paint guns and air supply etc. I'll also add my own predisposition here - air only. No high pressure guns, no Wagners. Not for the silvers you are going to want - if you don't want to use silver, just white latex - go for it. But if you plan a great silver "state of the art " (such as it is) DIY screen, forget the high pressure approach to painting.

I'll try and do a more comprehensive painting post later. Hope this helps.


Chris
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post #452 of 514 Old 09-09-2003, 02:05 PM
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Glacier, do you use HVLP? I like my gun and agree that it doesn't spray a large quantity of paint with the 1.5 tip. I am going to a 2.0 and don't expect a lot more and I am prepared to make many passes to get the finished product. In your post, you said use air only? I think the 50/40/10 mix with 4 drops of red and the flat pure white background should work fine with several coats of the Ddog formula....
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post #453 of 514 Old 09-09-2003, 02:36 PM
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Coatie ...I own just the screen you describe.... but I used semi-gloss for the base. It's beautiful, but I have yet to put LCD light to it. It took about 12 to 13 coats of base and topcoat, and some hand (NOT MACHINE) sanding in between but it's gorgeous as screens go. I have been playing with the Do-Able plastic sheets available on the west coast at HD. Lightly pebbled, perfect screen material. I have also been trying to get the silver less gray and more silver. I think the original Ddog paint with the white added in the final coat may be best if done without that much white (10%). Now I am thinking "suspending" the silver in the glaze by adding it last to the painting may be the best bet of all.

Yes I have a 1.5 tip on HVLP. Frankly I doubt latex (even thinned) would be easy to shoot in anything but gravity fed or pressure pot. I am lucky enough to own a low air consumption pro gun. it is SLOW, I admit (not unlike it's owner). But then less chance for error is how I see it. I'm doing my current experiments on a solid substrate (plastic) and the volume of material from this gun is perfect (much like shooting paint on a car). On fabric is was a little less so, but ok. Air supply is a BIG subject few understand. What is your gun rated at in CFM ? How big is your compressor ? How big is your tank? Get a bigger tip and you may have more trouble atomizing the silvers. Stay tuned ....I think the next gen of DIY screen formulas is around the corner.

Chris
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post #454 of 514 Old 09-09-2003, 03:03 PM
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Well -- I for one, say that if Ddog makes that mixture -- I'll buy one. I followed his directions for the first screen and it's awesome.

Ddog, what would you charge for a 97" diagonal screen??

Very excited about this new formula --

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post #455 of 514 Old 09-09-2003, 04:54 PM
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DDog, you mentioned you were working on a screen that was accoustically transparents. I'm interested in more info on this. Are you just using a different fabric? But overall this screen sounds very interesting, just need a little farther on my room to setup a test sample.

Josh

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post #456 of 514 Old 09-09-2003, 05:35 PM
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If you are looking for a reasonably priced spray gun go to Harbor Freight.

You'll need an air compressor though I think they carry one all-in-one HVLP unit.

I purchased a standard (high pressure gravity feed) gun for $19.99 and an HVLP gun for $37.99. I already had an air compressor. I haven't tried them out yet - I need an inline filter first.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=7901

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=43927

(not cheap)
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44677

For learning to spray I see them as a cheap/easy way to learn. I'm sure they would suck in the eyes of an experienced painter, but a Ferrari would make an awful first car. Once I play with them for a while I might realize the need to make a larger investment.
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post #457 of 514 Old 09-10-2003, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glacier991
Coatie ...I own just the screen you describe.... but I used semi-gloss for the base. It's beautiful, but I have yet to put LCD light to it. It took about 12 to 13 coats of base and topcoat, and some hand (NOT MACHINE) sanding in between but it's gorgeous as screens go. I have been playing with the Do-Able plastic sheets available on the west coast at HD. Lightly pebbled, perfect screen material. I have also been trying to get the silver less gray and more silver. I think the original Ddog paint with the white added in the final coat may be best if done without that much white (10%). Now I am thinking "suspending" the silver in the glaze by adding it last to the painting may be the best bet of all.

Yes I have a 1.5 tip on HVLP. Frankly I doubt latex (even thinned) would be easy to shoot in anything but gravity fed or pressure pot. I am lucky enough to own a low air consumption pro gun. it is SLOW, I admit (not unlike it's owner). But then less chance for error is how I see it. I'm doing my current experiments on a solid substrate (plastic) and the volume of material from this gun is perfect (much like shooting paint on a car). On fabric is was a little less so, but ok. Air supply is a BIG subject few understand. What is your gun rated at in CFM ? How big is your compressor ? How big is your tank? Get a bigger tip and you may have more trouble atomizing the silvers. Stay tuned ....I think the next gen of DIY screen formulas is around the corner.

Chris
I have a 20 gal/ 5hp compressor. The spray gun has a regulator on it that it says to set at 43 psi. I was impressed with the way it work and may need to make sure I thin and just spray several coats.

I may stay with the flat pure white background to reduce the chance for hotspots. My projector is LCD and I would rather start that way and see what happens. I will have 0 ambient light as I am in a dedicated room in the basement.
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post #458 of 514 Old 09-10-2003, 11:24 AM
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ddog,

My good friend is a very experienced painter. He does a lot of custom paint jobs on cars and Harleys. He says he would have no problem mixing and/or applying 'ddog 2' for me.

So, with that said, is it possible to to get the 'formula' for 'ddog 2'? If not, put me on your list as a customer ... I need this 3.0 gain screen!!!

Thanks,
Gman
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post #459 of 514 Old 09-10-2003, 11:57 AM
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ddog - when are you going to post pics of the new screens - I think we would all like to see the progress compared to the orig formula.

And - what is the official word on this new batch - are you selling it - letting people in on the ingrediants or what ? Some of us DO have the capability to paint with advanced techniques and would love a shot at improving on what we have - I for one would like to compare it to the changes I made to the original batch

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=299852

before I commit to painting my big screen.
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post #460 of 514 Old 09-12-2003, 01:19 PM
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OK, Ive followed this longer than long thread and was wondering what the exact formula is for the 1st Ddog formula. Since this thread is so long I think there have been a lot of variations on it...so....what is the Definitive formula for it? I plan on trying it out this weekend and I want to try to get it right the 1st time.:D

BTW Im using an HS10.

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post #461 of 514 Old 09-12-2003, 01:48 PM
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Good Luck. I made the same inquiry earlier this week and got no response.

From reading the thread:

It's a white base of varying sheen (flat, eggshell, semi-gloss, etc.) depending on the post.

Covered by an ephemeral mix of Silver + Glaze + (sometimes?) White (Sheen unknown) in ranging percentages, with a "few drops" of red to alter the color (though, personally I'd really adjust the projector electronically than alter the color of the screen).

I was hoping to make a "ddog" sample to hold up next to my Goo samples that I plan on comparing. If I can't get the formula nailed down then later I'm afraid I will have invariably "messed up the formula" if I end up with a negative opinion of it.

<Shrug>
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post #462 of 514 Old 09-12-2003, 01:50 PM
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I'll certainly yield to other (and better interpretations, but here's my take on it (altered slightly after I shot my 1st screen). Orig Formula. spray a base of Behr ultra white. Debate on semi gloss, eggshell or flat. Your call. if you are spraying this on blackout screen, you will need to lightly hand sand with 150 or 200 grit paper several times throughout this process to knock down "nibs". Top coat. Mix 45% glaze, 45% silver and 5-10% white ... add a few drops of blood red colorant to this mixture. Thin to spraying consistency, may require up to 1/3 or more water by volume. Spray repetitive coats in varing approaches (side to side, up and down, alternate diagonals, until you have a nice even finish. allow to dry slightly between repetitive coats. One final sanding, check if it needs a light finish coat (if so, do it) and voila. Your done. remember this is Ddog #1. Ver xxxx. The variant has the silver fogged into the wet glaze. I plan to try that this weekend, will report back.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Chris
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post #463 of 514 Old 09-12-2003, 02:03 PM
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Glacier - I wish you success with the fogging technique - I think you will like it. It is worth the work!!!
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post #464 of 514 Old 09-15-2003, 09:28 AM
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Just bumping this post up ... I hope DDOG gets back to us soon!

Also, an opinion question - do I make a DDOGv1 screen for now, or just use my wall until we hear back? Is using the wall that bad??

-Mike

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post #465 of 514 Old 09-15-2003, 09:42 AM
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Using a sheetrock wall with DDOG v1 is quite satisfying (in my opinion). But I'm also eager to upgrade once the chef says the soup is ready!

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post #466 of 514 Old 09-15-2003, 09:10 PM
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If I decide on ddog mix 1, do I want to attach the fabric to the frame first, then paint? If so, how do I fully protect the velvet(een) on the border? I dont think I can attach that once the screen is on, but I also don't know how to properly stretch the screen for painting...

Who has done a screen that can help me out?!? :)

-Mike

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post #467 of 514 Old 09-15-2003, 09:37 PM
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The procedure goes like this. You first build the frame to stretch the fabric on. 1x2 or 1x3 pine is fine. Depending on size you may need middle spreader bars to help with the strength - you are going to really stretch this fabric! I stretched my blackout cloth by hand incrementally in 2 stages. First I splined it - hoping this would be the end of this process. It was not taut enough, so I restretched it proceeding one side to the next side and so on, and as I went I stapled it. VERY tight now. THEN, I did the painting of this screen (see other posts on this process). THEN, I built the surrounding frame and put the screen and the frame together to hang. Simple (or complicated) as that. I'll upload a pic of the finished project.

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post #468 of 514 Old 09-15-2003, 10:09 PM
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Difficult to tell much from this.. the screen is in the frame and on the wall... awaiting first light from the Sony HS-20 (someday soon I hope).. it dwarfs the 32 inch TV.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508...cn3739-med.jpg

The speakers on the sides are Bose and the center channel is above. The sound system sounds awfully good for what all is in it ,, low end price wise (6.1 with 800 watts driving it in the receiver and back channel amp and powered sub) but dang, I dare ya to tell by the sound!

Chris
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post #469 of 514 Old 09-16-2003, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
You first build the frame to stretch the fabric on. 1x2 or 1x3 pine is fine.
...
THEN, I built the surrounding frame and put the screen and the frame together to hang.
Chris, thanks for the notes, but what is the 'surrounding frame' made of, and how does it differ from the 1x3s? Wouldn't I just use that 1x3 frame as the final one, wrapped in velvet?

-Mike

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post #470 of 514 Old 09-16-2003, 11:26 AM
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The 1x3 frame will be under the screen material if you stretch it over and staple to the backside (think of it sort of like covering a plate with plastic wrap) which is the standard method, then you need another surrounding frame for your velvet.

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post #471 of 514 Old 09-16-2003, 12:41 PM
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Ohhhh, i thought I would be taking the 1x3s and stretching the screen behind them (to the back).

-Mike

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post #472 of 514 Old 09-16-2003, 01:50 PM
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Wrapping it over the wood will give you more leverage and tension, should help out with wrinkles and such as well.

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post #473 of 514 Old 09-16-2003, 06:28 PM
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Wildhunter is right. I made my frame out of MDF molding, and attached 1x3 pine behind it, creating a "lip". I mitered it to the right size, assembled it and the screen, wrapped on 1x3's fits nicely in it, like a picture in a frame. I attached 1x2's vertically, and then took a 1x4 and ripped it in half on a 45 degree bevel. One of the 2 resulting pieces gets screwed onto the wall, the other to the backs of the vertical 1x2's, a very easy and strong way to hang this. It's NOT light.
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post #474 of 514 Old 09-17-2003, 04:50 PM
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Why is glade needed in these screen concoctions?

--Edit -- Haha ^ look above "glade" - That's a good typo! I wonder if I should give that a try in the mix - who knows it might be the cure for cancer.

I read the label on the Behr Glade today at Home Depot. According to the lablel purpose of the glaze is to slow down the drying process of the paint. It keeps the surface "open" so that you can do all those faux finishes to the paint that the next person that buys your house wished you'd never tried (sponging, etc.)

Why would this be needed when painting a screen?

If you want to thin the paint you can use water.

The only things I can think of is that 1) (if the glaze is thicker than water) you want to thin the paint to the point of translucency, but don't want it to have the runny consistency of water. or 2) the glaze has a flat sheen when it dries so it's like adding a flattening agent to the mix.

????

I picked up some silver and opel frost while I was there to play around with.
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post #475 of 514 Old 09-17-2003, 06:59 PM
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In the original formula is was designed, best as I can tell, to provide a translucent base to the silver. In the newer version it is a translucent substrate into which silver is fogged, blending wet on wet.

Chris
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post #476 of 514 Old 09-18-2003, 02:49 PM
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Here it is to all of you DDOG mix lovers

Are you all blind - the man tries to SELL you stuff - look around - in every tread you will find his friendly advise to use DDOG screen.

It started out as a good thing - and I thank you DDOG for it - for sharing your ideas and experience. But that is what FORUM is for - you SHARE with people you finds and ideas - not SELL them.

But now it all looks to me as marketing campaign "... here everyone - DDOG mix #1" and here $$$ "... DDOG screen #2" but it's secret now (although I may sell a couple here and there) - you may as well quit your job and start your own screen company.

I've tried several versions of DDOG #1 on drywall, gatorfoam, foamboard, parkland, blackout cloth: rolling, spraing, spraing by the pros in auto paint shop with very expensive equipment, including camera with filtrated air and controlled climate etc. we've tried several combinations and still - it would not even come close to any of the 12 samples of DaLite I have, or to any of the Stewart samples (DDOG beats Firehawk? - NO WAY) I'm not even stating to talk about any comparisson to Silverstar - DDOG mix simply sucks.

Trust me - I honestly tried this to work out good, and I blamed myself and people who dedicated their time to help me with it for a month. For what???

I will try to post my results in pictures later on - my digital camera is out.

And I do not wonder anymore - "why "Tryg"- the screenwise - still has not evaluated DDOG screen: nothing to evaluate - but he did noted the qualities of Rustoleum 7715 Silver Metallic - which by the way works great if you spray it (not from the can ---- oil based version of it sells in HomeDepot by quart). By the way Rustoleum 7715 does not have a huge flake - same or smaller than Behr but it does hotspot, which is totally disappears after you cover it with same Rustoleum Clear Frosted Glass or Higher end Rustoleum Clear Matte (I think American Vision series) protective and not yellowing.
Even without clear matte Rustoleum is VERY close to the 2'x2' Silverstar sample I have - by gain, color vividness, whites and contrast, and it is actually better in ambient light than SilverStar.

I understand - many of you guys did not try anything else for DIY and you think this tread is soo big - it must be true - well I did try and DDOG was saying in earlier posts -"Go out people and try and experiment with paints and mixes ..." - until he felt the urge for $$$ - now it's more like "... hey - DDOG mix is the best" posted by himself in every screen relaed tread - o'course FORUM IS A GOOD TOOL FOR ADVERTISING - slam away!!!!

Nothing personal - just my $2 in a money pot.

Mike
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post #477 of 514 Old 09-18-2003, 03:07 PM
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What was the viewing cone like on that Rustoleum Silver?

I put a (very small) spot on my wall and if I move to the side it looks like a dark gray dot - from the front it is extremely bright.

From that small sample I guessed that it would have horrible off-axis performance.

As for your other comments I think he (ddog) means well.

He lost my attention early into the thread though. There were too many general statements with very little tech to back them up.

Actually it happened right here:
Quote:
Originally posted by ddog

The second step gives you thoughs Inky Blacks you like so much and all that 3D depth you just got to have.
Ddog!!
It struck me funny - reminding me of an 80's Trapper Keeper commercial or something.

No offense ddog - really - you have to admit that sounds like it came straight off of dialog in a Saturday morning commercial for toothpaste.
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post #478 of 514 Old 09-18-2003, 03:37 PM
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have samples of commercial screens as well, my wife and I are as non-biased as you can get. The ddog mix screen works pretty well for me. Well enough for us to save the $$$ and stick with it for the time being. BTW, it's a matter of not having the cash. I can afford just about whatever screen I'd like.

As for offering a for sale version, we'll have to wait and see. You're going off very pre-mature considering ddog's still experimenting and hasn't offered anything for sale yet.

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post #479 of 514 Old 09-18-2003, 04:25 PM
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If this forum turns into some kind of "anti-Ddog" thing I'm gonna be ticked.

I don't even know the guy, but he offered his help. And now if the formula that he's come up with is too complicated to spray ourselves..., maybe the man doens't have five hundred hours to hold our hands to teach us. Sell it Ddog. It's better than "Goo", WAY better.

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post #480 of 514 Old 09-18-2003, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Przybylski
It's better than "Goo", WAY better.
Is this statement based on experience? I would like (and have the ability) to make an objective comparison, but I need someone to say - here is the ddog formula. I need a baseline formula.

Also - Remember - You have to spray "ddog" formula. You can roll Goo.

Agreed though - my post was not meant to be an anti-ddog post. I was merely poking some fun at his earlier description, and noting that it sort of tainted my reception of the "tech" presented from there on out.

Frankly, messing around with this stuff is a lot of fun, but I don't kid myself into believing that we can outperform a commercial screen by spreading house paint on blackout cloth. I also heard that back in the 50's some guy built a '57 Chevy that would get 65 miles per gallon using a modified carburetor with water injection. :) The oil companies bought him out.

(jokingly ...)
Hey, maybe that's why we haven't heard from Ddog. Stewart, Dalite, and Vutec paid to shut him up. :p
PerryH is offline  
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