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post #31 of 55 Old 09-10-2017, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
If you decide to go with two row seating then it looks like you'll have problems with line of sight from the back row seeing the bottom of the screen. I would not force myself into a compromised projection geometry for the sake of a centred ceiling fan.
Good point. I did test it and you're right. but I was able to move the picture up a bit and fix it. I realize this is cutting it close on all angles... but... I do have wiggle room. I can get a shorter fan without a light kit or lower the projector up to another 6" before it starts to get in the way of even very tall people.

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The other factor is that fans are often a bit noisy and two fans doubly so.
I definitely agree with that. I really don't want two fans. I want one big fan that can move more air at a slower speed.

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In the olden days commercial theatres used off centre ceiling fans ( I know cause I operated one... ).
It's one of those things that would probably bug me for a little while and then I'd never think of it again. But I'd still prefer symmetry.

Attached is my latest drawing.
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post #32 of 55 Old 09-10-2017, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by STAIN0 View Post
Would that setup be contralable with a logitech harmony elite?
I clicked on the link and happened to notice this review: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...3FXEYSS32HF1H/

So I believe that would be a "yes" assuming that review is legit.
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post #33 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
Good point. I did test it and you're right. but I was able to move the picture up a bit and fix it. I realize this is cutting it close on all angles... but... I do have wiggle room. I can get a shorter fan without a light kit or lower the projector up to another 6" before it starts to get in the way of even very tall people.


I definitely agree with that. I really don't want two fans. I want one big fan that can move more air at a slower speed.


It's one of those things that would probably bug me for a little while and then I'd never think of it again. But I'd still prefer symmetry.

Attached is my latest drawing.
Noise falls off, more or less, according to the inverse square law (twice the distance = half the noise) and the projector is likely to be the noisiest thing in the room. I would want the projector to be as high as possible to be as far away from the audience as possible, especially if it is directly overhead.

You could probably find a very low profile fan that would still allow for higher projector placement but then fan efficiency falls off when too near the ceiling. A single and, certainly, dual smaller fans, even off centre would probably be more efficient than a central large but low profile fan.

I never gave it a 2nd thought after determining that the PJ had priority for centre line space, but dual fans would be replicate what older cinemas used look like, so there's that.

In the really olden days, before AC, ceiling fans were critical for their actual cooling effect, but in my AC equipped home they mainly just ensure a gentle air flow and even temperature.
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post #34 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STAIN0 View Post
Would that setup be controllable with a logitech harmony elite?
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Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
I clicked on the link and happened to notice this review: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-r...3FXEYSS32HF1H/

So I believe that would be a "yes" assuming that review is legit.
Yep...use 'em and do that all the time. However at times one must Call Harmony Support because the newer Remotes often must receive a Tweak directly from Harmony to use the correct command codes.

Mega,


As far as air flow is concerned, the real trick is having the room correctly designed.

It's surprising how basically clueless...or at least uncaring some HVAC Installers are. Given the choice, like many Contractors, they will opt for the easiest possible way to do the installation.

In a Theater, there should be at least 2 Ceiling "Supplies" located toward the front of the room (Screen-ward), preferably each 1/3rd in from the Side walls.

There should be not 1 but 2 smaller "Returns", each located on the Rear Wall, also each 1/3rd in from the Rear Corners. In the least, 1 large return "Centered" on the rear wall.

The object being to draw the cool air down from the Front and over/past the Seating areas.

All that would seem elemental, but you can bet'cha that left to their own decision making, the HVAC guys would place the "single" Return on the interior Side Wall, while placing the Supplies along the Exterior Side Wall.

It's / it'll be up to you to insert your "suggestion" to the HVAC Installers, and there is nothing wrong with them being fully aware of the room's usage and requirements. But you gotta catch them early, before they start to lay out the Plenums.

Another equally important consideration....make the Theater a stand-alone Zone. All you'd need is an additional smaller unit, but by doing so you could assure yourself of always having adequate ventilation without having to bump up / down the controls for a larger area.

I know your trying to justify a Fan...but in reality it is grossly out of place, and will compromise your Room's "Theater Oriented" design. Shucks...you already considering having the PJ at 7' off the Platform level, and while that may seem OK now, when your not actually "seeing it" in place, it will be intrusive.

These comments of mine are not just suggested opinions, but facts, experienced and proven through many, man instances..as well as the sad tales of having seen / dealt with poorer choices.
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post #35 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Agreed. An ALR screen is a very appropriate choice in a room that's poorly setup for projection.
And just as good or better than a White screen in the dark if even better Colors and Blacks are desired

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Agreed. A grey screen makes perfect sense when light-control isn't an option.
And just as good or better than a White screen in the dark even when light-control is an option.


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A grey painted screen with gain increased back up to 1.0 or higher will not be as uniform nor as perfectly artifact-free as a flat-white, but some people won't notice these imperfections..so it depends on the user.
That is a blanket assessment that is NOT supported in fact across all instances and applications.

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The black-level/contrast advantage of a grey screen compared to a flat white can be significant in a poorly light-controlled room with an aggressive enough (dark-colored) screen, but a light-grey ~1.0-1.2gain screen will only offer minimal black-level improvements in a poor room and little/no improvements in a good room.
What kinda crock is that...? Your agreeing that there is an improvement, only minimal, when in fact the difference is substantial enough in both instances to warrant due consideration if one wants better performance, at any level.

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This is agreed upon by practically every expert and knowledgeable projection enthusiast. Ask around, this forum actually has quite a few big-name professionals and experts who are friendly and willing to answer questions.
You don't have to make that suggestion, as I'm included in that designation. And I can speak with authority that many of the ascribed to individuals are deeply entrenched in old-school thinking, and would not even consider any Theater without correct light control or light suppression as even being worthy of note.

As such, they pretty much all dismiss Ambient Light Screens for being detrimental to Image Quality...and much of that is due to the offerings of the Screen Mfg, most of which all provide screens with all those nasty aspects you keep harping about. In DIY, I and others have made a conspicuous effort to create ALR screens that reduce or eliminate those nasties, while giving superior performance quality over that of basic Grey screens and /or Mfg ALR screens...and it's obvious enough to all that your steadfastly working against that premise.

Perhaps that's because you cannot come up with anything better...something that would be original thinking? It certainly seems to be a valid reason to be considered because frankly there doesn't appear to be any other reason for all the biased and misleading commentary you post.

Save simply disagreeing with me on any / every point.


Quote:
I would not suggest someone simply "make do" with a DIY grey screen like a bandaid for a dedicated theater which could easily use smart light-control to achieve peak black-level/contrast performance with a white screen.
But you do always dismiss the need for a "advanced" DIY Grey screen to assist in providing the best possible results...in a dedicated room.

And your use of terms like "Bandaid" are the typical hyperbole you employ to emphasize your points, even though they are incorrectly used.

A White Screen can only and ever provide exactly whatever the Projector can deliver...especially in total light control, while even a light grey, 1.0 gain surface will in fact help deepen Blacks and improve color rendition.

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But, if light-control remains a problem, then a grey screen can help make off-axis lights and reflections less of an issue.
Well gee wiz.....somehow you must have missed all the times that has been stated....because you've stated so often, including above, how basically ineffectual a Grey screen is.

You also must have missed how significant the difference can be in Light Controlled situations, or you would not venture to state: "a dedicated theater which could easily use smart light-control to achieve peak black-level/contrast performance with a white screen."

Projectors differ in performance, and if you go further to state that a Projector with lessor contrast and weaker Blacks (...and less saturated colors...) can look just as splendid in total darkness as can a Projector with exceptional levels of the aforementioned, then you delegate your comments to being nonsense.

If even a light Grey "basic" surface can advantageously affect those parameters even a little, then your WRONG....and it can...and does...so you are.

All this spouting off about a White Screen being all that is needed in every instance where the room is ideally set up is just "Old School" thinking and labels the "spout'er" as being myopic in both viewpoint and vision.

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Luckily, many 1.0+gain grey screen mixes want a bright white surface to start with, so it's not difficult to experience both if you want.
Yes...if one wants to condemn the User to having to go back and redo his Screen because he discovers after the fact that the Grey surface was what he needed / wanted all along.

That mindset has been an on going aspect of your advice ever since you started up on this Forum. I on the other hand urge the DIY'er to aspire to the best possible solution they can...out of the gate. Only if & when they state they either have no interest, ability, or desire to do so do I fall back into suggesting something more mundane and of lower performance.

........or I let you have your way with them. Birds of a Feather, and such.

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post #36 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 12:56 PM
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Spoiler!

It looks like you misunderstood a lot of what I said.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #37 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Yep...use 'em and do that all the time. However at times one must Call Harmony Support because the newer Remotes often must receive a Tweak directly from Harmony to use the correct command codes.
If i wanted 3 lights over the stage, and another 4 over the seating that could operate independent of each other, would i need 2 switches?
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post #38 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
On one hand, since I'm putting a lot of energy into making sure the lighting of my room is ideal, white would be an "obvious" choice. But MississippiMan, you have made many excellent points about why grey might still be better even in a "perfectly" list room such as:
- someone wants the light on
- people opening the door
- helping the borderless screen disappear
Careful attention to the room's lighting can often result in a better theater compared to poorer light-control with a grey screen trying to compensate.

Leaving the lights on, a white screen can still show the deepest blacks and vibrant colors in a well controlled room. Look at the wonderful dark details in that jacket.


A door being open in a white-screened theater does not need to be a problem. Great color and contrast can easily remain in a well planned room.



The opposite is also something to keep in mind. In a poorer setup room, even a grey screen such as this will washout badly enough to make black appear grey instead. Notice how the entire grey screen-wall and the area past the image's borders are fairly noticeable with the theater's lights on instead of being invisible as claimed?


Don't expect a screen (including a light-fighting screen) to perform miracles. Working toward aiming lights you might use during showings toward the seats and keeping them off the screen can allow a pretty crazy amount of light in a dedicated room without nearly as much washout.
A grey screen can help against off-axis lights and reflections, but a well planned theater doesn't need to have problems from reflections nor lights hitting the screen in the first place.
Whatever style of screen you choose, good light-control can improve the image.

High, overhead/downfiring cans with narrow spot bulbs positioned over the seats are a good option. Small shields between the light fixtures and the screen can also be huge helpers.
Wall-washing/facing lights and omnidirectional sconces are best left off (or very low) during movies because their light spreads everywhere, including onto the screen/wall...and as you saw in Mississippi's grey screen example, despite a grey screen and a really nice projector and a dark-colored room, poorly controlled/aimed lighting is still able to washout black into grey and make color less vibrant.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #39 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Mega,

As far as air flow is concerned, the real trick is having the room correctly designed...
I really appreciate all the details on how to make the most out of the room with good HVAC design.


I think the best I can hope for (without driving up the cost quite a bit) is more and correctly placed returns.


A dedicated zone is probably a little much for my budget/need. I also much prefer to feel some air moving which does wonders even when the room is not an ideal temp.


Quote:
I know your trying to justify a Fan...but in reality it is grossly out of place, and will compromise your Room's "Theater Oriented" design. Shucks...you already considering having the PJ at 7' off the Platform level, and while that may seem OK now, when your not actually "seeing it" in place, it will be intrusive.

These comments of mine are not just suggested opinions, but facts, experienced and proven through many, man instances..as well as the sad tales of having seen / dealt with poorer choices.
I want to know every possible issue you can see with my design... it's helping me make it better. But there are some design decisions that I will probably make that contradict "best practice". This is either because I see it as a budgetary issue or because I (perhaps stubbornly) have my own preferences. Anyway, if you see me moving forward with things you recommended against, please don't be offended but please do point out every possible issue with it.

Here is my current list of things I plan to do against your advice (LOL):

A/V gear below the screen:
pros:
- I like to see what audio mode my receiver is in.
- infrared remotes work without additional work.
- easy and intuitive to access gear.

cons:
- distracting reflections.
- distracting lights on gear.

Ceiling Fans(s):
pros:
- I like air moving.
- cheaper than AC zones or other airflow options.
- lights are helpful when not using the screen (like looking for a movie etc.)

cons:
- possibly noisy.
- limits projector placement.

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post #40 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Don't expect a screen (including a light-fighting screen) to perform miracles. Working toward aiming lights you might use during showings toward the seats and keeping them off the screen can allow a pretty crazy amount of light in a dedicated room without nearly as much washout.
A grey screen can help against off-axis lights and reflections, but a well planned theater doesn't need to have problems from reflections nor lights hitting the screen in the first place.
Whatever style of screen you choose, good light-control can improve the image.
So I expect there to be two main "light modes" when the screen is on. Movie theatre mode in which all lights are off and door shut so it really doesn't matter at that point what type of lights they are because they are all off.

The second mode I'll call "casual mode". That would be if the viewer(s) are multitasking and therefore not fully engaged. So in this mode the absolute best possible image quality is not required or expected. That is not to say I will not be putting effort into minimizing all the possibly lighting issues I can, but it means I will not be expecting performance and a bright room at the same time.

Quote:
High, overhead/downfiring cans with narrow spot bulbs positioned over the seats are a good option. Small shields between the light fixtures and the screen can also be huge helpers.
Wall-washing/facing lights and omnidirectional sconces are best left off (or very low) during movies because their light spreads everywhere, including onto the screen/wall.
Those are great tips. I did already update my plans to move the wall sconces farther back in the room and flipped the room so the opening door is also at the back. I plan to have the sconces be remotely dimmable too. At this time I don't have any plans for overhead lights, but I'll probably get ceiling fans with lights, but those will not be used during movies. I also already have a dimmable lamp that will be by the couch.

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post #41 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 05:37 PM
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If it makes you feel any better, the overhead lighting in those first two pictures...that's a fan light. It's less ideal than can-lights, but the old omni-directional lights were replaced with ~$3 narrower spot-lamp LEDs and the section of glass bells facing the screen are opaque, just enough of a block so the light gets blocked/shadowed over the screen but cast around the floor, seats and rear half of the room.

A lot of sports, TV and more casual content tends to use fewer dark scenes, so the effects of light washout can often be a lot less noticeable. Better light control will still look nicer here too, but not as much difference as it can make with darker content like many movies.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #42 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 07:32 PM
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Ftoast, you speaking without even knowing what your looking at.

The images I posted in high ambient light had 4 Halogen Spots running at full output in the room...and THAT is why the screen wall showed some degree of orange reflection. That was a brightly lit room. There was no attempt made to direct the spots away from the screen.

Nor did I ever say that the intent was to show how the lighter Grey wall itself was resistant to the high ambient light to the point it was going to be black under the severe conditions shown. I choose lighter Grey applications when I'm featuring PJs such as the JVC o Epson 5040....because I can. If my intention was to not show what your referring to, I would not have posted that image...unlike your pictures that just can only show anything of worth for an reason...you don't really have a "bright light" of consequence on. Your just grabbing at something to try to belittle what you cannot...that the Image on that wall..with the Full On overheads looks exponentially better than any White screen could ever muster under the same conditions.

Let's stop to consider this small truth...how many member's Theaters are there that sport really good, higher end Projectors that use your Color Space nonsense? Hmmmm?

You have always made it your specialty to twist things to your liking..to misquote...or to ignore a pointed comment or published fact that runs contrary to whatever I post and to what you want others to believe. And in this case, you ignore the obvious image quality under poor lighting conditions and instead make an inane observation that is not only obvious as to what is happening, but you try to twist it to show how poorly chosen it supposedly is.

You come off as a desperate individual desperately looking to validate your simplistic point of view...and do so at my expense, and in that attempt, you make virtually everything else you have to offer be just as inconsequential and worthless.

That overhead light is not as bright as your image makes it appear. That light only appears bright because it is a the brightest thing being captured by the Camera. If it WAS really bright, it would blow out that camera's meter. And the amount of room lighting in your room is seriously lower than the example I showed. You've attempted to take your pictures under more idea conditions because you must. And they still look dull. I took my ambient light shot under a worst case scenario...with an insane amount of light present. And they look so much better.

And of course, upon retroreflect, you decided to state how you made a particular point to NOT wash the Screen with an light from the fixture. Now I wonder why you could not dare to show that screen in anything remotely close to a worse case? Well, I really don't wonder.

Your being both intentionally deceptive and misleading. Nothing new there...but it needs to stop. I find it very unfortunate that some of the people on the Forum that are tired of seeing what you post, and how you conduct yourself in regards to my own postings, do not lambast you as badly in public and they do in the PMs I receive. Perhaps that will be changing. If and when it does, you will the one who brings it about.

The OP has stated he wants to go with a painted wall...and a Grey that will preserve gain, so that is your Que to post your drivel and try to dissuade him.

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post #43 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 08:40 PM
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I want to know every possible issue you can see with my design... it's helping me make it better. But there are some design decisions that I will probably make that contradict "best practice". This is either because I see it as a budgetary issue or because I (perhaps stubbornly) have my own preferences. Anyway, if you see me moving forward with things you recommended against, please don't be offended but please do point out every possible issue with it.
[/quote]

Ok...I won't be...and I will, and we'll see what shakes out.

Be advised I know how to stay on budget....so that is not to be a concern. I just cannot twist your arm beyond the breaking point. Nor would I if your determined to go a articular direction.

Quote:
Here is my current list of things I plan to do against your advice (LOL):

A/V gear below the screen:
pros:
- I like to see what audio mode my receiver is in.
- infrared remotes work without additional work.
- easy and intuitive to access gear.

cons:
- distracting reflections.
- distracting lights on gear.
Basically all of those "Pros"...that is all a Old School throwback. The points about the remotes I can agree with..to an extent. But a little money spent on the right IR/RF/IP remotes can make that a moot issue.
Why...you could have Doors on the A/V Cabinet. At least then, if you find the lights distracting...or a Guess states as much (...and they will...) you can close the doors and still operate the system.
(...and don't you know about GUI? You'd be able to see everything you need to "On Screen".)

All the same, the real issue is that such a "under the Screen" decision (...one really predicated on the TV that will be used 1st.) will be set in stone once you put everything in place...and however it tuns out for you it will be a "It is what it IS" thing. So if that is your intent to run contrary to what is deemed correct (ie:best) and your reasoning suits your own preferences, then really...no need to discuss it further. (..but I'm not committing to that... )

Quote:
Ceiling Fans(s):
pros:
- I like air moving.
- cheaper than AC zones or other airflow options.
- lights are helpful when not using the screen (like looking for a movie etc.)
No disagreements there except for the use of Lights on the Fan/s
4" Halogen Spots over the Seating are inexpensive and the correct way to light your theater. You do not need any assist from Globe or Tulip Lamps on Fans, objects that can / will only affect Image performance if on, and if they are not to be on because of that potential...then why even consider them? Is it to avoid spending $20-$30 a fixture for 4 Spots that themselves can be dimmed to be completely serviceable even when the Movie is on? It shouldn't be because you can get Hugger Fans without Light Kits for less than ones that come with them.

Nope...I stand firm in my determination that lighted Fans are wrong. They can only be a source of eventual regret. The only way they could ever be "right" would be that they were already there, and you couldn't change them. But that is not the case here.....

Quote:
cons:
- possibly noisy.
- limits projector placement.
You can get Fans that are quiet..and Hugger styles without Light Kits are not going to be that intrusive. (..I said that already )
Fail to address either or both and absolutely..you'll be "Con'ing" yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
So I expect there to be two main "light modes" when the screen is on. Movie theater mode in which all lights are off and door shut so it really doesn't matter at that point what type of lights they are because they are all off.
I'll buy into that to a point, if those light fixtures are not themselves intrusive. (...and AGAIN ! ...must be an echo...)

Quote:
The second mode I'll call "casual mode". That would be if the viewer(s) are multitasking and therefore not fully engaged. So in this mode the absolute best possible image quality is not required or expected.
Awww...do the Projector, the screen, room colors and the lighting choices as I suggest and Image quality will be far better than you dream it could be in "casual mode" Why not expect more, rather than less?

Quote:
That is not to say I will not be putting effort into minimizing all the possibly lighting issues I can, but it means I will not be expecting performance and a bright room at the same time.
Therein lies the same issue I have with Ftoast's posts / reasoning. No one either suggests nor expects your room to be blazin' bright at anytime. Nor does anyone consider that you'll be washing the screen wall with light. But if everything is done correctly, the seating areas can be bright enough to read by, eat by, or "look for something you dropped by"...and still look excellent. Perfect? No. Excellent? Yes.

Quote:
Those are great tips. I did already update my plans to move the wall sconces farther back in the room and flipped the room so the opening door is also at the back. I plan to have the sconces be remotely dimmable too. At this time I don't have any plans for overhead lights, but I'll probably get ceiling fans with lights, but those will not be used during movies. I also already have a dimmable lamp that will be by the couch.

MAKE PLANS TO GET THE DIMMABLE 4" CAN SPOTS
!!!
(They are inexpensive....very effective...ergonomically suited to the task. They will also add an impression of sensible design and a touch of class)

NIX THE LIGHTED FAN IDEA !!!
(The odds you'll find both ideally suited Fans w/ideally suited Lights are....Dim.)

Dude...getting Lighted Fans when you have a much better choice before you just isn't sensible. In fact it's kinda crazy since this is New Construction.

Now...your turn to not take offense.
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post #44 of 55 Old 09-11-2017, 11:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

MAKE PLANS TO GET THE DIMMABLE 4" CAN SPOTS
!!!
(They are inexpensive....very effective...ergonomically suited to the task. They will also add an impression of sensible design and a touch of class)

NIX THE LIGHTED FAN IDEA !!!
(The odds you'll find both ideally suited Fans w/ideally suited Lights are....Dim.)

Dude...getting Lighted Fans when you have a much better choice before you just isn't sensible. In fact it's kinda crazy since this is New Construction.
You're wearin me down but my fan light idea isn't dead yet. LOL My thinking about lighted fans is: There are times you want very bright lights in the room... and I'm not talking about when the projector would even be turned on necessarily. Let's say I'm connecting my latest device and I want a lot of light near the front of the room... It might be nice to have the option to turn on a couple of bright omnidirectional lights. But I would never turn them on when the projector is on unless it was truly and intermission / pause the movie kind of moment. I'm basing that off exactly what I have now which is a ceiling fan with a very bright halogen bulb in it that is never on when I'm watching TV but is on when not using the TV (granted it's a living room so it has more purposes) but that halogen is on for sure when I'm hooking up the latest Xbox or whatever.

But I could have my cake and eat it too... I could ALSO do the dimmable can lights. The builder offers 4 recessed can lights, but they charge $550 for them. Crazy. And of course the ones they offer would be very bright and not dimmable. So that is why I immediately decided against overhead lighting in that room. I also am a fan of indirect light, so I was against the idea of any lights where you can actually see the bulb.

Can you possible link to an example of the product you are thinking of? I can probably (hopefully) get them to wire for more lighting cheaper than the full-on can light option.

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Spoiler!
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
That was a brightly lit room. There was no attempt made to direct the spots away from the screen.
Spoiler!

The overhead lights washing the screen in a dedicated theater is an example of less than ideal light-control. The grey screen doesn't handle the poor light-control very well.
If the grey screen still requires careful light-control, it doesn't seem to be offering a significant advantage over a white screen which also requires good light-control.

Either way, good light (and reflection) management should be a high priority when possible.
We seem to be in agreement about this.

I too believe a low-profile fan without a light fixture (or with the fan light plan mentioned by KYAMega) and an arrangement of can-lights should give the best performance. Small eyelid style shields around the fixtures (is there a technical name for these?) can really help reign-in any stray light that may otherwise sneak out at a wide enough angle to hit the screen.
Using small shields to cast shadow over the screen can allow some leeway for more diffused bulbs..but positioning can lights high enough and directly over the seats (with the bulb and fixture being deep enough so the bulbs over the front seats aren't visible to people sitting in the back) can also be used to provide a good amount of light without irritating bright spots in your peripherals.
Likewise, using a larger number of dimmer cans can give a more indirect-lighting feel (gentler light from a more spread source) while keeping the precise light-control of the cans.

Also wondering, have you had any luck bouncing your remote signal off a light-colored wall to change settings?
I've had some gear that works great bouncing off the screen just fine, but other electronics which needed me to point the remote back at them.
If you've never tried this (because previously why would you) give it a shot with the pieces you plan to use with the projector eventually..You might find an item or two that you don't mind hiding toward the back which still work fine away from the front because of a bright screen and a strong remote.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
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Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
You're wearin me down but my fan light idea isn't dead yet. LOL My thinking about lighted fans is: There are times you want very bright lights in the room... and I'm not talking about when the projector would even be turned on necessarily. Let's say I'm connecting my latest device and I want a lot of light near the front of the room... It might be nice to have the option to turn on a couple of bright omnidirectional lights. But I would never turn them on when the projector is on unless it was truly and intermission / pause the movie kind of moment. I'm basing that off exactly what I have now which is a ceiling fan with a very bright halogen bulb in it that is never on when I'm watching TV but is on when not using the TV (granted it's a living room so it has more purposes) but that halogen is on for sure when I'm hooking up the latest Xbox or whatever.
If you look again at the level of illumination I have in the room when I took my image, you'll have to agree that it is "very bright".

And being dimmable, the Cans can be set to any level all the way down to almost non-existent to Off.

So really now...why the instance in having a overhead light fixture on a Fan, something that is inappropriate for the room's purpose.

Quote:
But I could have my cake and eat it too... I could ALSO do the dimmable can lights. The builder offers 4 recessed can lights, but they charge $550 for them. Crazy. And of course the ones they offer would be very bright and not dimmable. So that is why I immediately decided against overhead lighting in that room. I also am a fan of indirect light, so I was against the idea of any lights where you can actually see the bulb.
Eat too much cake and you'll get a stomach ache. Spend money better spent elsewhere on a fixture that has no practical use, or is redundant, and you might just get an ulcer.

........or give me one.

Quote:
Can you possible link to an example of the product you are thinking of? I can probably (hopefully) get them to wire for more lighting cheaper than the full-on can light option.
Gosh...that's exactly what I'd do. Except I'd do it myself. All the Electrician has to do is pull the Romex and leave it in the Ceiling an a pre-ordained area, and afterward you cut in the holes, attach 2 wires and a ground, mount the Lights (...they are a "After Construction" design...) and that's it.

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No worries. I have thick skin and an even thicker head.
Tru dat!

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The overhead lights washing the screen in a dedicated theater is an example of less than ideal light-control. The grey screen doesn't handle the poor light-control very well.
If the grey screen still requires careful light-control, it doesn't seem to be offering a significant advantage over a white screen which also requires good light-control.
Another case in point about how you choose to ignore what has been posted, or in the very least, can't absorb and understand it. My posts all mentioned that the Lights are "Position-able", but that I chose not to do so until the Seating arrives. And by not doing so, intentionally show just how well "THE IMAGE" could look under those adverse conditions. Got it? Probably not.

You'd rather focus on the wall area not receiving the image, because that is where you think you can find fault,,,and you certainly would NOT DARE put your Matte White screen under the same duress.


Quote:
Small eyelid style shields around the fixtures (is there a technical name for these?*) can really help reign-in any stray light that may otherwise sneak out at a wide enough angle to hit the screen.
Using small shields to cast shadow over the screen can allow some leeway for more diffused bulbs..but positioning can lights high enough and directly over the seats (with the bulb and fixture being deep enough so the bulbs over the front seats aren't visible to people sitting in the back) can also be used to provide a good amount of light without irritating bright spots in your peripherals.
*I used to think you just can't remember back too far...or worst of all, you choose not to.......or worse...you repeat the things I previously suggest just so you can seem to have made a good suggestion and attribute it to yourself.

I am certain it is the latter.

Post 4 of this Thread:

Quote:
Lighting:


I suggest 4" Eyeball or Position-able "SPOT" (Halogen...not LED) Place no Lighting within 6' forward of the screen...in fact really, the first row of Spots should be directly over and on a line with the 1st Row of Seating.
(....beat you to the punch there....)

The choice of a Dimmer...also important. I always specify the Lutron MIR-600THW-GR, a Remote Controllable Dimmer that costs under $40.00, and can easily handle 8 lights.


Lights? Can't do much better than these. You even get the Halogen Spot Lamps included.
*** Mega, the link to the Light Fixtures is the highlighted these above. Just click on it. Same goes for the Dimmer Switch above.

As for Ftoast's "revelation" about *"Eyelid" covers (...another term I've used repeatedly on many threads to describe Wall Wash Lenses..), again it was already addressed in post 6....


Below is the post (no#6) along with your accompanying quote:

Quote:
My preference with lighting is: I like to watch movies in total darkness. So I haven't been worrying too much about dimming capabilities. But I have never had a room painted dark before so not sure how much or little lighting I'll need. But I like your ideas with Halogen spots with a remote dimmer. I know I want indirect lights so they don't ruin your night vision.

Directional Spots that aimed at the upper 1/3rd of the Walls, or *Wall Wash lenses that create the same effect* are "best choices"....and having the Lights and Sconces on separate $35.00 Remote IR Dimmers means you might actually get some decent use out of 'em.


That is what I meant when I referred to "junking up a thread" in post no# 9. The act of intentionally leaving out specific information and prior made comments in his responses that would effectively show he's not giving everything already posted due consideration.
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post #47 of 55 Old 09-12-2017, 08:33 AM
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Spoiler!

You sound upset when we disagree AND upset when we agree.

I don't agree with your suggestion of aiming overhead cans (eyelids or not) so they wash the walls..that spreads light everywhere instead of putting it where it's needed while keeping away from the screen. It's also much less effective to light a dark-colored room using wall diffusion than a normal light-colored/white becausevthe surfaces are specifically painted to absorb ~90%+ of the light, so wall-washing lighting isn't very efficient in a dark-colored theater.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
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I don't agree with your suggestion of aiming overhead cans (eyelids or not) so they wash the walls..that spreads light everywhere instead of putting it where it's needed while keeping away from the screen. It's also much less effective to light a dark-colored room using wall diffusion than a normal light-colored/white because the surfaces are specifically painted to absorb ~90%+ of the light, so wall-washing lighting isn't very efficient in a dark-colored theater.
Now that's really funny, because you cannot seem to understand (...or cannot have a clue..) that when one Wall Washes or Spot Lights a Darker colored Wall with light, one is not trying to light the Room...or "Spread light everywhere"...they are using the Wall to absorb "a lot of" the light, while also managing to provide a restricted umbra of light around that given area. The end result often being a pleasing amount of illumination that is in no way detrimental.

That is what Sconces should do...and do very well if the right type are used. and no one sensible ever criticizes the color of the wall a Sconce casts it light onto. Yet provide a degree of "localized" light in the room they do. A Wall Wash Can Light is no different. That is if one understands it's purpose and intent.

The entire premise being that overall, there is more light provided where it is needed, and less where it is not.

It's called effective use of the entire room...the walls, ceilings, floors, furniture, draperies....and the light sources / dimmers, to create atmosphere when desired, and dark room immersion when not.

The spots I have installed will all be properly directed onto / behind the seating. The mention of "Wall Washing" was done in the context of describing an option.

You seem completely entrenched in "absolutes". You feel the Walls must be capable of 90% light absorption, and the Screen must be 100% White unity gain, or the entire Room is wrong.

This comes from having only very limited experience in real life, and depending instead on what you read....because honestly, most all of what you write is simple parroting. Borrowed information gleaned from others.

Which wouldn't be so terribly bad if you could use such information constructively, instead of in a myopic, biased, and confrontational manner. You have little imagination, and no real grasp of problem solving that goes beyond a very restrictive viewpoint. You should try having to create effective Theater environments for a living, repeatedly...all the time..with people you actually have to deal with personally, face to face...and be completely responsible for the outcome, and you just might wind up seeing things a little bit deeper, and with more complexity. You might even start thinking your really accomplishing something.

Therein lies the difference between one suggesting to others a halfway measure, or providing simple, unimaginative choices...or committing yourself and your reputation to a specific suggestion and/or course of action that takes every aspect to it's maximum length.

That's exactly how I approach everyone I try to help..and many if not most all who ask for my help understand that because I "pretty much" know exactly what is best for any given described situation. I can cover every aspect of a Theater's design....from the Room build "studs-out" to the Furniture & Equipment Choices...and while I may not always get them to do everything 100% my way in every case, I get most to do things 95% my way...far enough along that route to know the end results will be everything and more than hoped for...from the start...not sometime later on down the road.

I live or die on this Forum by the results gleaned from my advice...and after 15 years I ain't died yet.

In the room I've shown in my images here, I had a excellent Projector to work with. I had a Client who completely bought into the idea of a frame-less Screen wall for all the right reasons. They took my advice and painted every surface "except" the Screen wall in a dark, non reflective color....including the Trim. They allowed me the choice of lighting....and where to locate them, and agreed to the removal of the centrally located Fan w/Light.
(...oh Mega, Mega, Mega....)

I chose the shade of Screen Paint used for the Screen not to please your sensibilities or expectations, but for the needs of the Client. I knew the shade used was not going to be as effective as my darker iterations would be in strong Ambient light, but exactly what was best to assure a pristine, clear 4K image with superb colors and deep blacks...while still perform decently in modest ambient light. Along the way...at every step I educated the Clients in both usage and expectations, so they would know exactly what their strong and weak points are.

As for you, all you could try to do was point out the shortcomings of my choices...how things weren't as effective as it could be...even though my shown examples never purported the Screen to be a High Performance AL screen...just one ideally suited for the purpose at hand. All the foofarah afterwards was your doing, by your trying to justify using a Matte White over a Metallic Gray..yet never showing an example that would tax a Matte White as compared to what I ventured to show.

Now it's swung over to Lighting..a subject you obviously know little to less about as far as designing something beyond replacing the bulbs in a overhead light. It's kinda like asking me how a Nuclear Reactor works. You can be certain I know exactly how it works...I learned all about such, between my schooling and having read much and more about it, and I can relate much of it with a discerning accuracy. But you sure the hell wouldn't want to take my advice on how to design or operate one. I'd need the real, actual experience I obviously do not have.

It's not upset'tedness I feel about what you post..and what you decide to leave out or ignore....more really a case / combination of disgust and sadness that so much of my time is wasted, and the quality quotient of this thread (..and other threads...) gets trashed.

But perhaps worst of all is that it seems you just don't care.
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post #49 of 55 Old 09-12-2017, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
If you look again at the level of illumination I have in the room when I took my image, you'll have to agree that it is "very bright".

And being dimmable, the Cans can be set to any level all the way down to almost non-existent to Off.

So really now...why the instance in having a overhead light fixture on a Fan, something that is inappropriate for the room's purpose.

...All the Electrician has to do is pull the Romex and leave it in the Ceiling an a pre-ordained area, and afterward you cut in the holes, attach 2 wires and a ground, mount the Lights (...they are a "After Construction" design...) and that's it.
I put in a price request today to prewire 4 overhead cans. Hopefully they won't gouge for that since I'm already paying for 4 sconce prewires that should make it easy.

Quote:
Post 4 of this Thread:

*** Mega, the link to the Light Fixtures is the highlighted these above. Just click on it. Same goes for the Dimmer Switch above.
My apologies for missing that link the first time I read your post. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
Directional Spots that aimed at the upper 1/3rd of the Walls, or *Wall Wash lenses that create the same effect* are "best choices"....and having the Lights and Sconces on separate $35.00 Remote IR Dimmers means you might actually get some decent use out of 'em.

...The spots I have installed will all be properly directed onto / behind the seating. The mention of "Wall Washing" was done in the context of describing an option.
So thinking about lighting more...

If I do the sconces AND the can lights... I don't think I want all 8 of those lights aimed at the walls. The sconces will be indirect lights that shine onto the walls. So the cans would be downward aimed at the seating positions (I think). I wonder if they could be deep enough in the cans and directional enough to not cause hotspots in your peripherals and would function kind of like a reading light on an airplane. If they were independently controllable that would be awesome too so maybe my wife could have a light around her and I could have mine off. She is way more likely to want a little light to see what she is holding/doing. I'm more likely to be 100% immersed in whatever we are watching. Am I on the right track here?

Do you have recommendations for the sconces?

Quote:
In the room I've shown in my images here, I had a excellent Projector to work with. I had a Client who completely bought into the idea of a frame-less Screen wall for all the right reasons. They took my advice and painted every surface "except" the Screen wall in a dark, non reflective color....including the Trim. They allowed me the choice of lighting....and where to locate them, and agreed to the removal of the centrally located Fan w/Light.
(...oh Mega, Mega, Mega....)
HAHAHAHA!!

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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Now that's really funny, because you cannot seem to understand (...or cannot have a clue..) that when one Wall Washes or Spot Lights a Darker colored Wall with light, one is not trying to light the Room...or "Spread light everywhere"...they are using the Wall to absorb "a lot of" the light, while also managing to provide a restricted umbra of light around that given area. The end result often being a pleasing amount of illumination that is in no way detrimental.
Spoiler!

An umbra of light hitting a wall will travel in all directions as it reflects off the wall. Because of this it can be a neat effect between movies, but it can adversely affect the screen/image by the time you turn them bright enough to significantly brighten the seating areas.
I wouldn't recommend wall-washing lighting during a movie if there are more precise options available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
So thinking about lighting more...

If I do the sconces AND the can lights... I don't think I want all 8 of those lights aimed at the walls. The sconces will be indirect lights that shine onto the walls. So the cans would be downward aimed at the seating positions (I think). I wonder if they could be deep enough in the cans and directional enough to not cause hotspots in your peripherals and would function kind of like a reading light on an airplane. If they were independently controllable that would be awesome too so maybe my wife could have a light around her and I could have mine off. She is way more likely to want a little light to see what she is holding/doing. I'm more likely to be 100% immersed in whatever we are watching. Am I on the right track here?
I wouldn't inherently vote against wall-washing with overheads (on a separate switch), but if a room is on a somewhat limited overhead-lighting arrangement I'd prioritize at least the first 2-4 overheads as directional lighting for the seats. If there are additional overheads wall-washing could be a nice effect, but sconces could also be used for a similar job like mentioned.

The main trick with the deep overhead cans is to have the fixture deep enough (or use a small shield if depth is a problem) to block line-of-sight between the front-seat overheads and the rear-seat viewers. The cans over the rear seats can be positioned juuuust far enough back that none of the viewers will see a bright lightbulb unless they're looking up (or up and back for the front seats). But the cans over the front seats will naturally be far enough forward that people in the back row could potentially be bothered by the light-source in the top edge of their peripheral vision if the lights are on bright enough.
That's mostly just nitpicking, but there's little harm in avoiding potential problems.
The room's high ceilings and having the lights positioned so high in the first place will already help a lot too.

I believe a deep enough (and dark-colored/non-reflective) fixture or an adequate shield can also allow a more diffused lightbulb without it spreading too much light where it isn't wanted.

There isn't really a limit on how many individually controlled lights a room can use. In addition to having it wired for individual control, you might want to check out some of the wirelessly controlled smart-bulb options to see if something there is more to your liking for parts of your lighting.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #51 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 07:35 AM
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Mega,

The proposed Lighting diagram below is a suggested layout, one that addresses most of you needs...and concerns.

The forward Sconces are far enough toward the Screen to not interfere with your desired placement of the Side Surrounds, but far enough back that when on and dimmed they should not impact the screen overly much. Rear Sconces can provide more than adequate "from the rear" illumination for the Rear Row, again, even when dimmed.

The overhead directional Eyeball Spots are angled forward and down over the shoulders of the Front Row viewers, preventing glare in the eyes of those seated in the Rear Row, and Wall Wash Cans provide enough additional illumination on the periphery plus create a pleasing cosmetic effect. Also, as noted on the diagram, the right Side Wall Wash serves to illuminate the Platform Step area.

All lights must be of the Halogen variety because LEDs are not dimmable.

If you decide on using a "light-less" Fan, use a "Flush Casing Hugger" style and locate it as close to directly overhead of the Front Row seating as possible without the Blades intersecting the forward Spot Cans. This must be done to prevent the whirling Fan from being silhouetted by the Screen's reflection and becoming a distraction.

Of course. as stated, the lighting placement in diagram is a "suggestive idea" for your consideration...as are the seating locations and Platform design.

But it all does seem to work for what you have in mind, so..........,

Attached Images
File Type: jpg A Basic Lighting Diagram Idea.jpg (153.8 KB, 44 views)
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Last edited by MississippiMan; 09-14-2017 at 02:33 AM.
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post #52 of 55 Old 09-13-2017, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
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MississippiMan, That is AWESOME! Thank you so much for taking the time to put that together.

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post #53 of 55 Old 09-14-2017, 02:35 AM
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MississippiMan, That is AWESOME! Thank you so much for taking the time to put that together.
You very welcome! Glad you liked it.

I'm always glad to make the effort.

However, it seems I forgot to add a step on the far left side of the Platform. That is strongly suggested otherwise someone will take a stumble.

That being the case, I have now added that in above.
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post #54 of 55 Old 09-15-2017, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I've finished my top view and side view of my visualizations... trying to see how everything fits and where lights shine etc. It's all coming together really nicely.

Please take a look and let me know if:

A) I interpreted your designs correctly (especially the way the can lights aim).

B) If you see any issues.

The door is on the other side because I had forgotten that our floor plan was mirrored from the default plan because they needed our driveway to be on the left.

Key:

Each square is 1x1 ft and matches the dimensions of the room as best as I could estimate and the gear and furniture are also to scale.

Red = lights / screen (screen will be paint but I wanted to be able to see it's size)
Blue = projector image
Green = eye-line of back row
Black = speakers / projector
Brown = platform / steps
Grey = 7' couch
Purple = ceiling fan (at least I took off the light)





Thanks again MississippiMan... the majority of this is based on your ideas and suggestions!!
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[KYA]Mega is offline  
post #55 of 55 Old 09-16-2017, 07:50 AM
DIY Granddad (w/help)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
I've finished my top view and side view of my visualizations... trying to see how everything fits and where lights shine etc. It's all coming together really nicely.

Please take a look and let me know if:

A) I interpreted your designs correctly (especially the way the can lights aim).
Almost exactly, except the front Eyeball Cans are specifically and almost primarily designated to the Front Row seating.
The Rear Sconces and the Wall Wash Cans serve to provide illumination for the general area of the rear seating.
And upon reviewing, I'd suggest the Rear Sconces be positioned 1/3rd the Room's width / distance in from each corner (...with 1/3rd spacing between..) not just because it will look better, but also because it will illuminate the Rear Row seating more effectively. That will also allow you to move the R & L Center Rears further inward..something that would be sonic-ally correct in as much as they are "Center Rears".

Quote:
B) If you see any issues.
Who? Me? Never.

Quote:
The door is on the other side because I had forgotten that our floor plan was mirrored from the default plan because they needed our driveway to be on the left.
Wow. Now we gotta start all over.

[quote='[KYA]Mega;54806280']
Purple = ceiling fan (at least I took off the light)






Hmmmm...and here I though some small Plane had taken a nose dive into your Ceiling.

Do try to find / Use a Hugger style. One that has no Drop Pole / Ceiling Collar. You'll want / need all the leeway such a mounting will afford.

The one directly below is a good example:



^^^Click on the second one above to see how much and where to purchase

Any Ceiling Fan that is "Wall Controllable" will cost almost double. Don't bother.





Quote:
Thanks again MississippiMan... the majority of this is based on your ideas and suggestions!!
Well thank you......now let's see how / what we can do to increase that percentage.

"They said it couldn't be done. Well, we sure showed 'em otherwise!"
HAS Advanced Audio and Imaging Solutions...Audio Transducers & Projection Screen Coatings
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