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post #1 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 12:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Deciding Between Paint or Screen Material

I am about to have a dedicated media room for the first time, and so I'm getting educated on projectors, screens, etc. It's a lot to take in, but since I'm not committed to anything yet, it's a good time to start deciding what I want to do.

The room will be 12' wide and 17' long. I am painting the walls and ceiling a dark grey (paint color is Onyx) and will have grey carpet. I'll probably start out using my TV and eventually upgrade to a 4K projector.

So here is what I think I want, but I am willing to entertain all sorts of options if my ideas are not sound:

Projector: Optoma UHD65

Screen: Approximately 140" diagonal 16:9 (based on projector's specs and my room)

Screen options:

Paint... thinking about Paint On Screen S1 Screen Plus

Or

Projector Screen Material... maybe Carl's UltraWhite Projector Screen Material

Or

Wimp out and buy a screen... Silver Ticket 4K

Some questions I can think of:

How difficult will it be to paint over the Onyx wall color, is it going to take multiple primer coats before I can add the paint-on-screen?

If I go with premade Projector Screen Material, can that be attached directly to the wall or would it need to be stretched over a frame? I'm not that handy with construction, so I really don't want to have to make a frame for it, and if I bought a frame, then I might as well buy a screen.

CIH or CIW? I've read several heated debates on this subject, and I know it's not directly related to DIY screens, but it kinda is if I'm designing my screen. I don't know if the projector I have picked out (which could change) has the proper zoom/lense shift to even do Constant Image Height (CIH). But even if it can, it seems like if I go for the biggest 16:9 screen I can, then I can temporarily mask it for 2.35 and have the best of both worlds.

Assuming I go CIW: Will I need to worry about masking for 2.35:1 aspect ratio? I don't know how good the contrast ratio is on projectors these days, but with a white screen I would expect that I might want to have some removable velvet (or other dark material) masks for the top and bottom of the screen so it can be a true 2.35:1 if I want. Is there some good DIY options for top/bottom screen masks? Even if I went CIH, same question for left/right masks.

Final questions are open-ended... Am I missing anything? Are any of my assumptions wrong? How would you configure a room like this on a modest budget?

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post #2 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 03:04 AM
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I'd skip the uhd65 because it has very low contrast despite its fairly high price.
The extra pixels are nice when you're watching a 4K bluray or full4K download, but in most other cases the resolution will be largely wasted. On the other hand, a projector with high contrast can make EVERYTHING look better, and high contrast will often make an image look more sharp and naturally vivid than extra pixels on a much lower-contrast display.
I'd recommend an affordable Sony like the 45hw or 55hw, a high-end Epson like the 5040, or a best of all worlds JVC if you can afford one (which I believe can be found closer to $3000-$3500 at the lowest).

I've heard that the standard SilverTicket white fixedframe screen is very smooth, so it will also work perfectly with 4K..If they're sold as separate models, there's little reason to pay more for the same performance unless one of them includes something extra.

I wouldn't suggest buying a "screen paint" when you can easily buy a regular paint that's equal or better for ~$15. I'd personally recommend you ask for;
-"a gallon of ColorPlace (regular, not Ultimate) Interior, Flat, Light-Base"
which is $10 at Wal-Mart, very natural and neutral-looking, bright, smooth, forgiving to use, and it can be painted directly over your dark-colored wall with only two or three coats (usually two).
You can also ask the paint worker to "please add 2ounces or 2Y of white KX pigment into the gallon of Light-Base", which simply helps it be its best.

Carl's sells a stiffer material called ProWhite which can be attached to a wall without a frame.

I'd recommend a good flat interior paint as the best option if possible..It's more neutral and invisible behind the image than Carl's ProGrey and about 1/20 the price of a SilverTicket.

Most full-colorpigmented/regular paint can cover any previous color in two or three rolled coats. If you prefer to prime, you should be in good shape after one or two coats of primer followed by one or two coats of your preferred paint.
I only need two coats of the ColorPlace Light-Base to cover the previously nearly black wall..no primer was used, and the white is bright enough to keep up with Carl's FlexiWhite.

I suggest aiming for the largest 16:9 screen that you can still fill with the projector and fit (keeping walls and speakers in mind). I definitely recommend making your own top+bottom masking for 2.35:1 movies, and consider adding side-masks too..like black curtain for the screen.
Black spandex can be used to mask black bars AND hide speakers at the same time while still letting their sound right through..you can even get spandex which hangs rather than stretches in all directions if you want.

I think 140" sounds like a good 16:9 screen-size that no current nice projector will have trouble fitting.
Your room sounds like a great dedicated video space with all the darkening treatment, and I'm glad to see you're thinking about all of this screen-size and masking stuff.
I'd like to add that masking made a huge difference to my hometheater despite costing very little. It was well worth it.

What kind of lights will this room use?
Adding dimmer switches (and dimmable lights if you haven't already..many LEDs are already dimmer capable) can easily be done with only a few minutes, a screwdriver and $20-$30 total. If you add some small light-blocking shields to the lights between them and the screen (particularly the lights most directly over your seats) you can easily watch with however much or little light as you want with surprisingly little washout of the image.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #3 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 07:07 AM
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Definitely go with the screen. In fact, that Silver Ticket screen is pretty awesome. I do also like Severtson screens. They are more expensive, but they are also fantastic quality.
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post #4 of 55 Old 09-05-2017, 07:44 AM
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Mega,

I'm going to address your situation in a less conservative manner, (...except maybe for the screen size...) as well as focus on your questions.

1st off, since you stated you would probably start out using a TV, and "upgrade" to a 4K Projector later, I would not suggest getting any lessor PJ beforehand.

As of this writing, the only really viable choice is a JVC DLA-RS420 (x570r). The Epson 5040 can't touch it...and any Sony "true" 4K is hopelessly more expensive. (...at present..) If the PJ purchase is to be defrayed until later, furgudnessake, don't fudge on image quality / feature set!

Let me address the Screen issue 1st, as that is the primary subject for this Forum.

Your "painted" screen (...again, the only real choice to make...) should not be a compromise owning to be "the least expensive way to go."
If you plan to get a spectacular 4K projector, and hope for "the best possible image", then you must plan around those inevitable goals. As such, DO NOT paint the Screen wall in you Room's wall color...leastwise not until you've painted your screen. Regardless of what has been said, the underlying color will affect the surface color. It will also attenuate reflected light, because unless the surface paint is completely opaque and reflects 100% of the light it receives, the projected light that is absorbed will be further attenuated all the more and rendered moot.

One only need to cover something "dark" with something "light" to see how much of an effect doing so has on the "lighter" paint, as compared to painting something "light" over a "light" base. Doing up a really spectacular painted screen means doing everything right...not just trying to do it as cheaply as possible. I think you already have an inkling that spending a bit more for something dedicated to creating a specialized end result can be / is worth considering.

In a dedicated Theater / Media Room, thought must be given as to any potential way to assure top notch performance from your eventual equipment choices and viewing option. And if you going to do things in stages, there should be less thought given to compromising quality / results solely to save a dime against a dollar.

That said, I suggest the following for your Screen aspirations.
  • Consider painting the entire Wall in whatever Screen paint solution you settle on, and go with a Boarder-less approach. *More on this below.
  • Prime the Screen Wall with a Bright White, "Sprayed on" Primer. Spraying is essential, as it assures the smoothest possible surface.
  • After Priming, meticulously check the Wall for any defects (Scratches, Pits, Bumps...) and repair them with a light coat of Compound.
  • Re-prime any repaired spots.
  • Paint the Screen Wall in a medium-hued Flat Neutral Gray formulated to have at least 1.2 Gain (...gain is critically important for a 140" screen)
  • The choice of the Screen paint is actually far more critical than going to Walmart to get the least expensive paint possible. It certainly does not need to be something as expensive as a POS product. But choosing a more advanced DIY Formula will be the best choice.
*A Boarder-less approach allows for the "widest possible 2.39:1 Image" and the "tallest possible 16:9 Image", eliminating Masking needs.


With the Room's Walls / Ceilings painted in such a Dark Gray shade, and with a dark Gray Carpet, light reflections back onto the Screen wall will be almost non-existent. When your watching content in near or total darkness, the unused Wall area will appear "Black" and cannot in anyway affect the "on screen" contrast.


Even if you'd prefer to have the Wall surrounding the Screen be dark Grey, wait until you have painted the Screen, then carefully Cut-In the edges with the Wall Paint. Don't worry about the logistics in doing so....you'll get the instructions you need right here.


If the latter is done, and you feel an absolute need / desire for Masking, you'll only need Black Velvet Pull Down Roller Shade Masking with C.I.W. going for you, and the JVC's Powered Vertical Lens shift. However, chose the right Screen paint and you'll still see virtually no difference between the used and unused portion of the Screen....in the dark / near dark. Only when the lights are up would you need Masking, and then only for your own personal cosmetic preference...not for performance reasons.


OK...let's wander away from the Screen alone:



Viewing position:


You did not mention how you plan to be seating people. At 17' your right on the edge of 2-Row potential with a 140" screen, with a first Row viewing distance of 120" (screen width is 122") and a 2nd Row viewing distance of 180" (on a Riser of 10" height)


Projector position.


Lens to Screen....15'5'
Nothing less will work for a 140" wide screen


Room Ceiling Height?


Another unspoken but critical aspect governing how your Screen and Projector (...and seating...)will be positioned


Speakers?

At least as it concerns your Screen's design and image location, the choice of Speakers and their positioning is also critical, and needs must be a determining factor in the Front Sound Stage / Screen decisions.


I can help advise you in this department....and if your going to have a screen that will crowd the Side walls so that there is less than 12" from each side of the Screen to the wall, you'll need to make good/wise choices.



Lighting:

Ftoast hit upon another important subject here. The choice of Lighting, it's positioning, and how it is controlled will be a very critical aspect of the room's design.


I suggest 4" Eyeball or Position-able "SPOT" (Halogen...not LED) Place no Lighting within 6' forward of the screen...in fact really, the first row of Spots should be directly over and on a line with the 1st Row of Seating.


The choice of a Dimmer...also important. I always specify the Lutron MIR-600THW-GR, a Remote Controllable Dimmer that costs under $40.00, and can easily handle 8 lights.


Lights? Can't do much better than these. You even get the Halogen Spot Lamps included.





Other questions for you:
  • At what stage of Construction is the Room? Existing? Partially done? Framed?
  • If Existing, is there Attic access, or in the least, a Room above with Carpeted Floors?
  • Is there a Sub Floor?
  • Equipment Location?
  • Windows & Door Locations? It would really be helpful to see even a sketch of the Floor Plan. Photos?...that'd be great!


My best advice is to consider every possible aspect and contingency. That might seem to be a lot, but it's not so much really, especially if you can count on and follow the advice you'll be getting....from whichever direction it comes.


......as long as it's good advice, of course!

Not like the following....
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonmack View Post
Definitely go with the screen. In fact, that Silver Ticket screen is pretty awesome. I do also like Severtson screens. They are more expensive, but they are also fantastic quality.
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post #5 of 55 Old 09-06-2017, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone for your replies. Getting many varied opinions is great and I appreciate them all.

MississippiMan,

Thank you so much for taking the time to give such a thorough response. You have convinced me to go borderless, especially since that is the least permanent solution if I don't like it, but it sounds like I already have a lot going for me to do borderless.

The main reason I was planning to start off with the entire room dark was simply because I was going to start of with a TV in there and thought a light wall behind it would be silly. But I'm sure I can come up with something dark that wouldn't mess up the pristine wall until I get a projector.

One question I have regarding paint: What is the school of thought when it comes to white vs. grey? From the reading I've done so far I thought white was best for the darker rooms and grey was better if you had a room with more ambient light or lighter walls. So am I wrong or is there another reason you suggest grey?

So here are some responses to your questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
At what stage of Construction is the Room?
I am having a semi-custom home built and ground has not been broken yet, so there is plenty of time to make decisions. I chose the grey color for the room this week but I still have 2 more design center meetings before that is even considered "final". We estimate a move-in date in January 2018.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
If Existing, is there Attic access, or in the least, a Room above with Carpeted Floors?
Is there a Sub Floor?
Equipment Location?
Here is the floor plan but we have modified it a bit: https://www.rialtotexas.com/tx/san-a...eek/the-sandra

I'll be doing the downstairs media room option. But we modified the utility room so the entry to the media room will be in the corner of the side with the TV and the platform for 2nd row seating on the side closest to the garage.

I have attached a more detailed version from the blueprint and I photoshopped the door to closer to the correct location and ironically I just noticed they already had the platform on the garage side so the furniture placement on the web floorplan is wrong. LOL

This company will be doing all my low voltage wiring: https://www.bsgtexas.com/

I have requested them to wire and plate for 7.1.4. I currently have a 7.1 receiver and will someday upgrade to probably 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 (11 channels is probably out of my price range). So I may never use all 11 channels at once but I wanted the flexibility and the fact I can use 7.1 now.

Also I've requested conduit for the projector already.

Viewing position:
Phase 1 will be a normal 3-person couch below the riser. I may or may not choose to add a 2nd row but I probably will. The default platform they have in the blueprint is 6". Should I ask them to make it 10"?

Ceiling height:
9' 1 1/8"

Speakers:
Fronts are floor standing Klipsch KG 5.5s, so yeah, I gotta make room for them. I currently phantom the center so I don't have one. I never felt the need with those horns pointing at me.

For surrounds I forget the model, but they are not going to be in-wall they will be mounted or maybe on some custom shelves. For safety they'll be about 7' high.

I also have a pretty large HSU VTF-3 MK3 sub that I will place in a corner most likely. I'll probably do a crawl test to place it, but subs usually like corners.

Lighting:
I'm having them wire for 4 wall sconces and I'll probably pick those up on my own as nothing the design center had was remotely close to what I want.

I also want a ceiling fan in there (probably with no light kit or a very low profile one), but not sure how limited that will make the projector placement, but I could go with the projector on the back wall rather than ceiling mounted. Not sure about that yet but I do need to plan that out.

My preference with lighting is: I like to watch movies in total darkness. So I haven't been worrying too much about dimming capabilities. But I have never had a room painted dark before so not sure how much or little lighting I'll need. But I like your ideas with Halogen spots with a remote dimmer. I know I want indirect lights so they don't ruin your night vision.

Projector:
I have to sell my current home before I know how soon I'll have a projector budget, but I totally agree with waiting until I can get the right one rather than buying something I'm going to want to upgrade soon after. A dream I've had for a long time is passive 3D, but after some research I decided that was going to be way too expensive to consider, so that is when I decided I at least wanted 4K especially with a screen big enough to appreciate that resolution. But I was surprised to see how far behind 4K is on projectors compared to TVs especially since the use case seems even better than a small screen. Active 3D seems to be fading away too as it seems the newest 4K DLP chips do not support it. So I'm not going to let 3D stand in the way of getting a good projector. But I said all that to say my projector research has just begun and I am VERY open to suggestions and there will likely be more choices before I am ready to buy... but I will limit myself on price.

Once again thank you so much for taking the time to help out! I'm really excited.
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post #6 of 55 Old 09-07-2017, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
MississippiMan,

Thank you so much for taking the time to give such a thorough response. You have convinced me to go borderless, especially since that is the least permanent solution if I don't like it, but it sounds like I already have a lot going for me to do borderless.
Glad to be able to help! Designing Theaters is what I do, albeit in a somewhat different vein that most.

Quote:
The main reason I was planning to start off with the entire room dark was simply because I was going to start of with a TV in there and thought a light wall behind it would be silly. But I'm sure I can come up with something dark that wouldn't mess up the pristine wall until I get a projector.
Absolutely you can....and it can / should be the exact color & paint your going to eventually use for you Screen.

But please...don't hang the TV on a Wall Mount. To put Holes in the eventual Screen wall (Mounting Holes...110 outlet...HDMI Cable...) would be entirely self defeating.

If you own a TV already...one large enough to be worthy of watching in a room that size, then hopefully it has a Stand, and you could set it on a Table. Of course you still have to have a 110 outlet and HDMI run to that wall location...just have them placed as low as Code will allow.
(Horizontally, just above Baseboard height is good. Paint all Plates the same color as the Wall they are on.)

Don't own a TV for that room? Well Sheesh! There are several sub-$800 projectors that will make a mockery of any 65"er with at least a stunning 110" 1080p screen for the meanwhile. (...afterwards, you can "hand me down" to the Kids...or use it for a Outdoor Party PJ...)

Your a Texan! Go big...or eat grass!

Quote:
One question I have regarding paint: What is the school of thought when it comes to white vs. grey? From the reading I've done so far I thought white was best for the darker rooms and grey was better if you had a room with more ambient light or lighter walls. So am I wrong or is there another reason you suggest grey?
Here's the skinny.....,
Yes...under ideal Room Color / Lighting conditions and when using a Projector that has mega- "Native" contrast and ultra deep Blacks, a white will suffice nicely enough. Smooth white surfaces tend to "disappear" as far as being seen as a "screen".

Not so much if anything above is left to wanting...especially the PJ's own specifications.

I've been advocating the use of Grey surfaces since 2003-4, for & under ALL circumstances, but with almost all having positive gain characteristics because of the use of Metallic and Polyurethane additives.

In the beginning, the primary reasoning was twofold...to increase off-the-screen brightness ( my Screens were all BIG...) and to boost the perceived on-screen contrast by greatly improving the depth of the projected Blacks while not crushing detail or turning Whites into a dull mess. Also, such higher gain Greys did wonderful things to color depth and saturation. These Screen were almost all of them in either dedicated Theaters or Media Rooms.

However it became apparent quickly that an additional benefit was greatly improved ambient light resistance, because when one of those screens...by me or other Forum members...did go into a Family room setting, it was obvious that image quality remained exceptional under modest to medium ambient light.

From that point on, already knowing that the "Dark room" needs had been met, the emphasis went toward developing true Ambient Light Screen applications. The rest of the story is Forum history....and need not be repeated.

Even with today's PJs...4K or otherwise...both Native Contrast and Blacks can "almost" always use some help. I say almost because if you choose a top end JVC 4K with 160,000:1 Native Contrast and over 1.8 M:1 Dynamic Contrast, ....yep, dark room performance will be stunning....with just a plain ol smooth Matte White Screen.

However.........if you turn on any lights, or the room itself works against those deep Blacks because of reflection, then that is where the use of a higher gain Grey can be / is wholly advantageous. Such a Paint certainly won't detract from image quality under those less-than-ideal conditions, it can only ever help.

And no matter what else is said, my 39 years doing this sorta thing has shown that contrary to what people say they "won't" do...they always have reason to turn the lights on...sometime or another. So it helps to have help when that happens.

Your room's current design illustrates that need, if only because your placing a Door right up to the left side of the screen. I can hear the plea now: "Close that Door!"
(...make sure the door open inward toward the Screen and that will help...)

Quote:
So here are some responses to your questions:
Give 'em up!

Quote:
I am having a semi-custom home built and ground has not been broken yet, so there is plenty of time to make decisions. I chose the grey color for the room this week but I still have 2 more design center meetings before that is even considered "final". We estimate a move-in date in January 2018.
That's cool...glad to know your not pressed to make hasty decisions. You have a opportunity to get virtually everything done exactly as it should be...and how you want it to be, so your eventual satisfaction index should be sky high.

Quote:
Here is the floor plan but we have modified it a bit: https://www.rialtotexas.com/tx/san-a...eek/the-sandra

I'll be doing the downstairs media room option. But we modified the utility room so the entry to the media room will be in the corner of the side with the TV and the platform for 2nd row seating on the side closest to the garage.

I have attached a more detailed version from the blueprint and I photoshopped the door to closer to the correct location and ironically I just noticed they already had the platform on the garage side so the furniture placement on the web floorplan is wrong. LOL
Yeah...noted...and lamented. Iffin' it were me...I'd reverse the orientation of the Utility Room, pushing the appliances toward the Kitchen, and enter the Theater from under the Stairs, stepping up to the Platform Level. Consider this...the under-stairs space becomes a Theater Ante area, perhaps with a Mini-Bar / Concession.

Better still, leave the Door in place, but flip the room so that the Screen Wall is common with the Garage. You'd still step-up, but at no time when people are entering or leaving the Room will that interfere with the Mood or Image quality. Also...having the main Front Sound Stage opposite a Bedroom Wall is never a great idea.
Especially the Master Bedroom. This is a Room that will never be anything else but a Theater, so the thought and design must reflect that, lest at some future date of Resale, someone asks, :Why?" or worse, "I don't like that arrangement". (ie: a Wife)

Quote:
This company will be doing all my low voltage wiring: https://www.bsgtexas.com/

I have requested them to wire and plate for 7.1.4. I currently have a 7.1 receiver and will someday upgrade to probably 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 (11 channels is probably out of my price range). So I may never use all 11 channels at once but I wanted the flexibility and the fact I can use 7.1 now.
Proper Wiring placement will be critical, and if you are to go with Cabinet Surrounds, the choice of same will be of paramount importance
.
Quote:
Also I've requested conduit for the projector already.
That's fine, but the additional Cost of such would be better spent pre-installing a Future-Proof Fiber Optic 4K Certified HDMI, one that supports over 58 gigs....fully 3x the current standard for SUHD-4K

Quote:
Viewing position:
Phase 1 will be a normal 3-person couch below the riser. I may or may not choose to add a 2nd row but I probably will. The default platform they have in the blueprint is 6". Should I ask them to make it 10"?
Yes.....no question about that. Your eventual screen size will demand a angle of view from a Rear Row that will clear the Heads of those up front when they are not reclined.

Quote:
Ceiling height:
9' 1 1/8"
That can / will work, but you'll have virtually no leeway to design the room any other way than how I'm suggesting. 10' would be better...both design-wise and also "sonic-ally".

Quote:
Speakers:
Fronts are floor standing Klipsch KG 5.5s, so yeah, I gotta make room for them. I currently phantom the center so I don't have one. I never felt the need with those horns pointing at me.
Well........if you've never had the advantage of object based directional output at Center, along with the very real impact that comes from dedicated Center Channel content.....you really can't judge the "need" you've been denying yourself.

Don't hate me. And that's another good reason for a 10' Ceiling....room to place a Klispch In-Wall Center Channel in a Canter-leveled mount above the Screen, directed downward to the listening position.

Quote:
For surrounds I forget the model, but they are not going to be in-wall they will be mounted or maybe on some custom shelves. For safety they'll be about 7' high.
These are good'ns that are Low Profile, and also be used as Atmos Ceiling Drivers.

Quote:
I also have a pretty large HSU VTF-3 MK3 sub that I will place in a corner most likely. I'll probably do a crawl test to place it, but subs usually like corners.
Multiple choice of location means multiple Wiring, unless you opt for a "good" wireless sub Transmitter / Receiver package. Believe it or not, the Klispch WA-2 unit is junk. This'n is a great choice...and costs almost 2/3rds less.

Quote:
Lighting:
I'm having them wire for 4 wall sconces and I'll probably pick those up on my own as nothing the design center had was remotely close to what I want.
Put no Sconces further forward than almost adjacent to the sides of the Front Row seating. 2 at that location and 2 in each corner of the Rear wall.

Quote:
I also want a ceiling fan in there (probably with no light kit or a very low profile one), but not sure how limited that will make the projector placement, but I could go with the projector on the back wall rather than ceiling mounted. Not sure about that yet but I do need to plan that out.
Ghaaaaa!!!
Brother...you will absolutely need a 10' Ceiling. And NO light Kit.
A Wall mounted PJ above a Platform is a poor choice...and it will lessen your Projector's performance.

Having said that...building a 24" wide by 20" deep "Through the Garage Wall & Flush " Projector Enclosure, one that loads from the Front is an option if indeed you can restrict your ambient light enough to optimize the PJ's output / Screens reflective-ness.

Quote:
My preference with lighting is: I like to watch movies in total darkness. So I haven't been worrying too much about dimming capabilities. But I have never had a room painted dark before so not sure how much or little lighting I'll need. But I like your ideas with Halogen spots with a remote dimmer. I know I want indirect lights so they don't ruin your night vision.
Directional Spots that aimed at the upper 1/3rd of the Walls, or Wall Wash lenses that create the same effect are "best choices"....and having the Lights and Sconces on separate $35.00 Remote IR Dimmers means you might actually get some decent use out of 'em.

Quote:
Projector:
I have to sell my current home before I know how soon I'll have a projector budget, but I totally agree with waiting until I can get the right one rather than buying something I'm going to want to upgrade soon after. A dream I've had for a long time is passive 3D, but after some research I decided that was going to be way too expensive to consider, so that is when I decided I at least wanted 4K especially with a screen big enough to appreciate that resolution. But I was surprised to see how far behind 4K is on projectors compared to TVs especially since the use case seems even better than a small screen. Active 3D seems to be fading away too as it seems the newest 4K DLP chips do not support it. So I'm not going to let 3D stand in the way of getting a good projector. But I said all that to say my projector research has just begun and I am VERY open to suggestions and there will likely be more choices before I am ready to buy... but I will limit myself on price.
The above is a subject that is my specialty. Now unless you really think your in the running for a true 4K machine, and are willing to part with $10k+ "minimum", you best'est choice is a JVC EShift PJ. They all support 3D as well...and it is spectacular 3D too! I know.....my last several installations have all been JVC EShift'ers

You can never tell what kinda price you might swing into on one. The current JVC Model year is going on discount as I type, with the Flagship DLA- x970r going for under $6000.00! And the x570r for under $3K! Now mind you, those are Distributor prices...but if you can find a Dealer willing to help, you might just get what you really want a lot sooner than you expected! Stranger things have happened.

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Once again thank you so much for taking the time to help out! I'm really excited.
I fully understand! Even after many dozens of such experiences, I too always get excited at the prospect of someone getting more than they ever considered possible...for less than they imagined.
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Screen paint article:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/paint_perfect_screen_$100.htm

I have a very similar media room in our vacation home. I insisted on a very smooth finish to the drywall and used a painted wall screen similar to the article (using the satin paint). It works very well but it is critical to use the correct roller to minimize visible imperfections in the paint. Another advantage of using a painted wall is that slight vertical keystoning is undetectable when there is no vertical borderlines around the screen, and as mentioned you have complete freedom for choosing different aspect ratios, zoom positions, and even different projector positions without worrying about the screen (which can always be added later).

our room is 12'7" x 21' x 9' ceilings. We have a ceiling fan but I made sure that it was mounted off centre at a point where it won't interfere with the projector. The W1070 PJ is ceiling mounted about 13ft back from the screen wall and gives about a 140in diagonal image with the lens on its wide angle position, for maximum lumens.

Regarding 3D and the UHD65: For not a lot of money you can always add another projector and mount it above, under, behind or beside, just for 3D, since there's no 4K 3D releases anyways, AFAIK, and, for exampe, the Epson faux K PJs default to 1080p in 3D.
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Some more nice things about using a Flat, Interior Light-Base paint as the screen..it's also the perfect, bright underlying surface for spraying a fancier mix upon if you decide you prefer that instead of the white.

Do be aware however, a grey paint with added gain to reach 1.0+ (through metallic, pearl, poly) will not actually be able to raise your projector's contrast nor deepen its blacks/colors...instead the fancier mix simply tries to help the projector look its best by fighting off-axis sources of screen-washout such as lights/windows/surface reflections. The lighter-colored grey this screen is, the weaker its fighting effectiveness is..that's why it looks so light-colored, because it's easily lit-up by lights/windows/reflections.
Don't expect a light-grey gain-boosted fancier mix to fight a significant amount of light compared to a plain white screen, nor will it significantly deepen blacks or contrast in a darkened and blacked-out/non-reflective room like yours will mostly be.
Don't expect a light-grey gain-boosted mix to fight lights or rejections coming from near the projector or the seats/viewers.
A fancier mix will also dim slightly, unlike a bright flat white paint, when viewed off-axis and a little toward the sides/edges of the screen itself.
A grey with added gain will also highlight small surface-flaws and imperfections while a flat white actually hides them (a big part of why a good white paint disappears so perfectly behind the projected image).

I'm definitely not saying white is always the best choice, but for a dark-colored dedicated theater it's often the best-looking AND a perfect starting surface if you decide to spray a grey mix later.


Although a flat, interior Light-Base won't really require extra smoothing, you WILL want to make sure that wall is carefully smoothed, primed, painted and smoothed again anyway just in case you decide to spray a grey with gain...you'll want a very smooth surface for that.


Also, while not using any masking can work alright in a darkened room with an exceptionally high-contrast projector, masking tightly around the image helps keep it looking impressively nice even while there's some light in the room, and helps make it look like a projector has higher contrast than it actually does.
Adjustable top/bottom/sides masking will let you keep a completely customizable edgless screen while making it appear higher-contrast and more professional.
Lightweight, darkened materials (foam, cardboard, thin wood..often in combination) can be used with magnets to great effect if you desire it to be completely invisible. The suggestion of side-curtains and a pull-down shade is also a totally workable solution.


Not only would an affordable projector be more fun than a little (by compare) TV in that room to start with..but you could also use it as your primary 3D movie player by getting something with terrific 3D clarity and motion like the Benq ht2050, or something that plays 3D particularly bright like the Epson 2040...either of which can usually be found between $600-$750, and their replacement lamps are less costly than JVCs which can also make them ideal for more casual TV and sports use.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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Mega, my apologies for what seems to have become a standard practice, junking up a Thread I have posted varied advice on, with unnecessary and contradictory replies, even when a specific direction has been settled upon. Blame some of it on me because obviously, my posting seems to draw out such individual responses, especially if no response or questions are directed "elsewhere". Your thread and your project deserves pointed and purposefully direct advice, and I hope we can continue on in that vein.

I suppose we'll have to just wait and see.

Ftoast knows full well why he posts what he does after I post responses that are specifically requested of me....he knows I cannot let such things go. That's my fault in this. What's sad is that he seems to make no note of how doing so is not just distracting....it's inconsiderate to you, the OP.

So again, for my part in all the above...my apologies.

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Mega,My best advice is to consider every possible aspect and contingency.
I guess I can certainly agree with that :P It does depend entirely on your needs, and the situation. I would generally recommend an actual screen, and I do really like the ST screens, but there are definitely situations where such does not make sense. What's best for your situation definitely depends on a lot of factors, including price, size, seating situation, lighting, viewing distance, layout, the look you want, and way too many others to list.

When it comes down to it, what is best for your situation is usually whatever looks, feels, and sounds best to you.
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Mega, my apologies for what seems to have become a standard practice, junking up a Thread I have posted varied advice on, with unnecessary and contradictory replies,
Spoiler!

I said a bright, flat, white paint is a great screen/surface in a dedicated room and that it makes a great underlying surface to paint a fancier mix upon.
I talked about some benefits of masking as well as making masks that won't interrupt the freedom of a fully painted wall.
I mentioned a couple good inexpensive projector options that could be used instead of a TV and still remain very useful after purchasing a high-end projector.

I'm pretty sure we're both agreement about these things, so I'm not sure why you'd call it "junking up" a thread.
If nothing else, different ideas and preferences aren't inherently negative.
People are free to pick and choose what things they like best and mix/match what they personally want.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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If you own a TV already...one large enough to be worthy of watching in a room that size, then hopefully it has a Stand, and you could set it on a Table. Of course you still have to have a 110 outlet and HDMI run to that wall location...just have them placed as low as Code will allow.
(Horizontally, just above Baseboard height is good. Paint all Plates the same color as the Wall they are on.)
You got my brain going again with this quote. Do I really care about what is going on that close to the floor? According to my calculations, even if I projected at 12.5' wide (which is the entire width of the wall) a 16:9 aspect ratio picture would only be 7 feet tall in a 9 foot room meaning I'd have a couple of feet extra. BTW, 7' x 12.5' screen would be a 172" diagonal. HAHA that might be fun. But prolly too much.

My current TV that I will start with is a Mitsubishi WD-73740 73-Inch DLP and it is on a stand so no worries messing up the wall.

The stand my current TV is on perfectly holds all my AV gear, so I was thinking about keeping it even after I move the TV out or buying something very similar (wide and low). It's 17.5" tall, so should easily be below the picture if I stick with 140" diagonal. But it's still taller than typical wall outlets, so what is the reason for putting them so low?

Regarding the door location and utility room... I also realized my floor standing speakers will be pretty wide meaning they'll be in the way of the door too. So I have just submitted a request for them to flip the whole room. But... I didn't want the 10" step right on the other side of the door so I'm asking them to make it so you can walk around it on that side of the room. Maybe 2.5' or whatever the architect thinks is right.

I also asked them to move the sconces.

Thank you for those suggestions!!

Quote:
Well........if you've never had the advantage of object based directional output at Center, along with the very real impact that comes from dedicated Center Channel content.....you really can't judge the "need" you've been denying yourself.
I don't want to get into an audio debate, but I have purchased and returned two different center channel speakers. It is quite possible I haven't found the right one yet, but in both cases I felt that my center channel diminished... not volume-wise but quality. Those KG 5.5's put the horn right at ear level and a good stereo image places the virtual sound source right in the middle of my TV which is impossible otherwise on my current setup. I know with a fabric screen a center can be directly behind, but I don't have any plans for that even with the projector. I've had guests over tell me the dialog in movies is so clear it sounds like people are in my living room talking. I don't disagree, I love the way my fronts sound. The only thing I miss is the ability to tweak the volume of that channel independently which is a shame because that should be technically possible even with a phantom center but my receiver doesn't give me the option if no speaker is connected. But anyway, I'm not opposed to giving the center speaker another go in my new room, but the last two rooms I've had my setup in, the center speaker (to my ears) was unnecessary and actually made things worse (i.e. directional sound from above or below the screen and less natural human voice quality).

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These are good'ns that are Low Profile, and also be used as Atmos Ceiling Drivers.
Those are not unlike the ones I have now... I looked them up... this is what I have: Klipsch RS-25.

Quote:
This'n is a great choice...and costs almost 2/3rds less.
Regarding sub placement, I am sure it will end up close enough to a wall I can just run around the baseboard with the wire, so I'm not worried about wireless... but it's nice to know it's possible. Thanks for the link!!

Quote:
Ghaaaaa!!!
Brother...you will absolutely need a 10' Ceiling. And NO light Kit.
A Wall mounted PJ above a Platform is a poor choice...and it will lessen your Projector's performance.
You've got me worried now. I don't think 10' ceiling is an option (or if it is it will be an expensive one). But I do want a fan and a projector. Hmmmmmm. What about mounting the fan (or the projector) off center? Would the projector have enough horizontal keystone adjustment to correct, and if so would that harm image quality?

I think I'll table the "what model projector?" discussion for now... mainly because I have until January or later and there may even be different choices out by then and also it's slightly off topic here. I may want a thread in another topic for that. For now I need to focus on the stuff my builder needs to know... even though I'm 5+ months out from move-in there are quite a few deadlines regarding plans and design that are very soon. I also need to reach out to BSG to let them know I flipped the media room and to lower the front wall plates.
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Not only would an affordable projector be more fun than a little (by compare) TV in that room to start with..but you could also use it as your primary 3D movie player by getting something with terrific 3D clarity and motion like the Benq ht2050, or something that plays 3D particularly bright like the Epson 2040...either of which can usually be found between $600-$750, and their replacement lamps are less costly than JVCs which can also make them ideal for more casual TV and sports use.
It would have never occurred to me to end up with two projectors in the same room. At first that seems so audacious, but now that you put it that way, it could actually save you money if you save wear and tear on your good one on content that doesn't warrant the full experience. Or even having a passive 3D setup using a pair of inexpensive projectors and a separate nicer projector for 2D. Definitely food for thought.

I'm trying to keep my hard core projector shopping for later, I only mentioned a particular model in the beginning of the thread to set the stage for pricepoint and quality I was looking for, but that one has been shot down by everyone... HAHA so definitely not getting that particular model.

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Mega, my apologies for what seems to have become a standard practice, junking up a Thread I have posted varied advice on, with unnecessary and contradictory replies...
No worries. Regarding the varying opinions and contradictions, none of that bothers me at all. I know when it comes to A/V everyone has an opinion and everyone is right. And I actually mean that literally to a degree because it's all opinions so what looks/sounds great to one person may be vastly different than another. It's also nearly impossible to experience exactly what someone else is talking about since they likely live in a different part of the world so we can't just see/hear each others' setups to definitively know if what they like we like.

So I welcome all opinions and I'm used to sifting through a lot of different schools of thought before I make a decision. I want to say thanks to everyone replying to the thread even if I have not specifically addressed your posts.

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You've got me worried now. I don't think 10' ceiling is an option (or if it is it will be an expensive one). But I do want a fan and a projector. Hmmmmmm. What about mounting the fan (or the projector) off center? Would the projector have enough horizontal keystone adjustment to correct, and if so would that harm image quality?

I think I'll table the "what model projector?" discussion for now... mainly because I have until January or later and there may even be different choices out by then and also it's slightly off topic here. I may want a thread in another topic for that. For now I need to focus on the stuff my builder needs to know... even though I'm 5+ months out from move-in there are quite a few deadlines regarding plans and design that are very soon. I also need to reach out to BSG to let them know I flipped the media room and to lower the front wall plates.
I plan on adding a raised 2nd row of seating and AFAICT, 9ft ceilings shouldn't be a problem.

I did some checking and my W1070 is mounted at 12ft from the wall screen, and is centred on the wall and our ceiling fan is beside it. You want the PJ centred because you do not want to use any digital keystoning. However, all you have to do is mount the fan beside or behind where your PJ will be and then it cannot interfere with it. Since the PJ is centred, there's about 6 ft from it to the side walls and a 30in fan could be mounted at 3ft from the wall and still have lots of clearance. However if you imagine your PJ is mounted 15ft from the projection screen and you intend to have a 10ft wide image then just draw some lines from where the projector will be to each edge of the screen and you'll end up with a triangle that will define the expanding cone of light from your PJ, and you just have to ensure that the ceiling fan blades are outside that triangle.
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Originally Posted by [KYA]Mega View Post
You've got me worried now. I don't think 10' ceiling is an option (or if it is it will be an expensive one). But I do want a fan and a projector. Hmmmmmm. What about mounting the fan (or the projector) off center? Would the projector have enough horizontal keystone adjustment to correct, and if so would that harm image quality?
A higher ceiling is better if you're able to manage it comfortably, but your plans already appear pretty tall so you'll be in better shape than most even at 9ft-9.5ft.

Even if you do get a projector with several feet of horizontal lens-shift and mount the fan offset toward the other side, that'll really limit your projector options AND force whichevery PJ you get to beam through a somewhat less ideal part of its lens which can soften the image's focus and add chromatic aberration (a slight color-split affecting each pixel a little like a misaligned panel).

A fairly low-profile fan should only force you to mount the projector about 0.5ft-1ft away from the ceiling which you'd likely want to do anyway for good ventilation (more breathing room for the PJ). Even with a thick projector hanging 1ft away from the ceiling over a 10inch-12inch riser, that'll still give a pretty healthy 6ft-6.5ft of clearance...PLUS with the projector mounted near the back of the room (above or behind the seats) it won't really be in a place where anyone can stand under it unless they climb on/behind the rear seats.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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  • Consider 2 small 36" Hugger Fans located off center and on a Line with the division between Rows.
  • BYW...with that Walk-In Closet, you can now easily do a Flush Mount PJ Enclosure. Super neat and Oh So "cultured".
  • If your planing for 4K, you are very limited to your PJ choice due to screen size / necessary Placement. Sorry...that's the way it is....ya gotta get used to that and plan your room according "Now"...not get surprised later.
  • I'll tell ya sumpthin'...anyone who would question JVC's 3D rendering quality over a BenQ or Epson needs to be Tar & Feathered. Hangins' too good fur 'em.
  • It's your Room, but I see some planning that is decidedly not in keeping with Theater Room dictates. While there are no "absolutes", there are some things that can spoil things.
  • Perhaps 1 in 50 would consider equipment placement under a Screen, and I see your choosing predicated on there being a TV involved. A stand under such a sizable screen will be a distraction...a eyesore illuminated by the Screens output. The lights would be distracting and counter productive to immersion...especially in the Dark.
  • As party to your thinking to offset the Platform, you gotta realize that the 10" Platform will of necessity have at least a 5" cut-in Step or Pedestal Step. People cannot "Hop Up" onto a 10" Platform. Install a Step Light and no one will fall down going out or Trip coming in. A 10" high Platform will still need a step/s so factor them in with a good design.


In response to earlier dismissals regarding light Grey "Fancy" paints, here is a light Grey w/Metallic / Poly content, doing what No Matte White could ever aspire to.


^^^Twin Sliding Barn Doors are coming! ^^^






This is exactly how lit up the Room was in the last Image.....far more that you'll ever consider having.



9 Theater Chairs are due to go in next week.


BTW...that's a 4K EShift JVC x570r a'hangin' there...for a smidgin' less than $3K

  • If the Photo below of the "Theater Room" provided in your Builder's link is any judge, I wouldn't count on the Architech to make "Platform" decisions for you.


Excepting the Entry Door being decently located, there is not a lot "right" about that design. Glossy Trim, White Wall Plates , off-set seating, inappropriate Lighting....the example (...and the room choice...) smacks of being "an after-thought"...not a effective, and ergonomic design. Most Architects and Interior Designers / Decorators do not have any real practical knowledge of what constitutes a good Home Theater...You can do better...I assure you.

And while people and opinions differ, some people have enough varied experience to intuitively know what will work best in any / all given situations...while others will just have opinions and/or personal preferences. On the Forum, you get 'em both....and as to if that will be to your advantage or your Doom is gonna be up to you.

Research...but decide early, and then run...run...run awaaaaaaay....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg A basic Theater Room Layout.jpg (38.6 KB, 273 views)
File Type: jpg A RoomThrough Door.jpg (430.0 KB, 566 views)
File Type: jpg A Trio of examples.jpg (733.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Sceenie in ge Dark.jpg (290.8 KB, 562 views)
File Type: jpg Sceenie in AL1.jpg (413.9 KB, 649 views)
File Type: jpg A Room w-Platform-Couch.jpg (406.1 KB, 557 views)
File Type: jpg AlonMedia.jpg (60.7 KB, 274 views)

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post #18 of 55 Old 09-08-2017, 09:54 AM
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[In response to earlier dismissals regarding light Grey "Fancy" paints, here is a light Grey w/Metallic / Poly content, doing what No Matte White could ever aspire to.



BTW...that's a 4K EShift JVC x570r a'hangin' there...for a smidgin' less than $3K.
Here is a $10gallon of ColorPlace Flat Light-Base, easily doing very well despite both the overhead lighting and the open door. It's also providing unbeatable uniformity, natural brightness, and the ability to beautifully disappear behind the image.





With a good projector and a good room, a nice white screen is hard to beat.

EDIT: obviously the projector's scan-lines and weird temperature fluctuation are a result of the projector not loving my camera..they aren't visible in person and have nothing to do with any screen.
I'm also not sure why the forum keeps flipping certain pictures, but apparently I'm not the only one having occasional trouble with that.
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File Type: jpg White in light.jpg (1.18 MB, 255 views)
File Type: jpg Off-axis white in light and door.jpg (1.33 MB, 253 views)

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #19 of 55 Old 09-08-2017, 08:10 PM
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Your living in a dream world...somewhere far, far under the rainbow.

I've never seen you post a single decent screen shot...ever...so really, let's not blame the camera.

Besides, if the image is paused, there should not be scan lines. (...of course if you using a very cheap PJ... )And if you are not pausing when using a entry level pocket camera or a low end Phone shooter, once again I'd have to say you don't know what you doing and / or your screen just doesn't put out credible images. On the other hand, I've taken hundreds of Screen Shots of moving content, (and paused) and with cameras ranging from my old Toshiba 2.2 mp to my current 14 mp Galaxy Edge and I never had / or have any of the issues you do. My oldest screen shots dating back to 2002 make a mockery of your current efforts. Not bragging...just stating the obvious.

Even without the scan lines, those images of yours are dull, totally without dynamics....terrible blacks.....so basically the only proof that what you say is good performance comes from your fingers...and I'm sorry to tell you this but that has never been enough for anyone who deigns to make claims such as you did above.

If you really wanted to prove a point...or even could, you'd never get it accomplished with the images you post.

It's ludicrous for you to post such images and even begin to say that what your shooting / shooting at can begin to remotely compare to my offerings. Still, that's what you do, and it's patently silly.

You've had 3+ YEARS to up your game, so not doing so pretty much sums things up.

You obviously can't.
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post #20 of 55 Old 09-08-2017, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
...if you imagine your PJ is mounted 15ft from the projection screen and you intend to have a 10ft wide image then just draw some lines from where the projector will be to each edge of the screen and you'll end up with a triangle that will define the expanding cone of light from your PJ, and you just have to ensure that the ceiling fan blades are outside that triangle.
I made a version of the room with 1ftx1ft squares so I can visualize my stuff in it. I added my floor standing speakers, a 10ft wide screen, and a projector 14ft back. I can see there would be room for a fan (or two) to the sides. Aesthetically (and practically for air circulation) I would still prefer the fan in the middle though. I'll have to make a side view to visualize how short the fan would need to be and/or how low the projector would need to be.

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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
A fairly low-profile fan should only force you to mount the projector about 0.5ft-1ft away from the ceiling which you'd likely want to do anyway for good ventilation (more breathing room for the PJ). Even with a thick projector hanging 1ft away from the ceiling over a 10inch-12inch riser, that'll still give a pretty healthy 6ft-6.5ft of clearance...PLUS with the projector mounted near the back of the room (above or behind the seats) it won't really be in a place where anyone can stand under it unless they climb on/behind the rear seats.
I'm still debating with myself about where to put the projector. More on that below.

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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
  • Consider 2 small 36" Hugger Fans located off center and on a Line with the division between Rows.
  • BYW...with that Walk-In Closet, you can now easily do a Flush Mount PJ Enclosure. Super neat and Oh So "cultured".
I'd prefer 1 centered fan, and the closet idea would definitely allow for that. I guess the tradeoffs are: minimum distance to create the size image I want is idea for brightness, but mounting in the back would be more aesthetically pleasing and solve the fan issue.

Quote:
If your planing for 4K, you are very limited to your PJ choice due to screen size / necessary Placement. Sorry...that's the way it is....ya gotta get used to that and plan your room according "Now"...not get surprised later.
I realize that now. I just assumed that 4K would be all the rage on PJs considering image size is probably the best justification for all those pixels. But... now that I'm learning more about the world of projectors, I see that the tech just isn't there yet (for the price I'm willing to pay) and I totally agree that contrast ratio and many other specs are a important spec than pixel count. I wonder if 5 months will be enough time for any of that to change?

Quote:
Perhaps 1 in 50 would consider equipment placement under a Screen, and I see your choosing predicated on there being a TV involved. A stand under such a sizable screen will be a distraction...a eyesore illuminated by the Screens output. The lights would be distracting and counter productive to immersion...especially in the Dark.
I have reasons (besides reuse of furniture) for wanting stuff at the front. I am sure all of these are solvable, but I had not considered having anything up in front to be such an issue. But here are some reasons:
  • I don't have to solve the remote control issue.
  • I have a couple of gaming consoles with sensors that need to be up front (Kinect for example).
  • I may someday add a center channel and need something to put it on.
  • Wiring. Everything is simpler up front.

If I do this and then regret it, I would think I could lesson the problem with some non-reflective material to cover it.

Quote:
If the Photo below of the "Theater Room" provided in your Builder's link is any judge, I wouldn't count on the Architech to make "Platform" decisions for you.



Excepting the Entry Door being decently located, there is not a lot "right" about that design. Glossy Trim, White Wall Plates , off-set seating, inappropriate Lighting....the example (...and the room choice...) smacks of being "an after-thought"...not a effective, and ergonomic design. Most Architects and Interior Designers / Decorators do not have any real practical knowledge of what constitutes a good Home Theater...You can do better...I assure you.
HAHAHA so true.
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post #21 of 55 Old 09-09-2017, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Your living in a dream world...somewhere far, far under the rainbow.

I've never seen you post a single decent screen shot...ever...so really, let's not blame the camera.

Besides, if the image is paused, there should not be scan lines. (...of course if you using a very cheap PJ... )And if you are not pausing when using a entry level pocket camera or a low end Phone shooter, once again I'd have to say you don't know what you doing and / or your screen just doesn't put out credible images. On the other hand, I've taken hundreds of Screen Shots of moving content, (and paused) and with cameras ranging from my old Toshiba 2.2 mp to my current 14 mp Galaxy Edge and I never had / or have any of the issues you do. My oldest screen shots dating back to 2002 make a mockery of your current efforts. Not bragging...just stating the obvious.

Even without the scan lines, those images of yours are dull, totally without dynamics....terrible blacks.....so basically the only proof that what you say is good performance comes from your fingers...and I'm sorry to tell you this but that has never been enough for anyone who deigns to make claims such as you did above.

If you really wanted to prove a point...or even could, you'd never get it accomplished with the images you post.

It's ludicrous for you to post such images and even begin to say that what your shooting / shooting at can begin to remotely compare to my offerings. Still, that's what you do, and it's patently silly.

You've had 3+ YEARS to up your game, so not doing so pretty much sums things up.

You obviously can't.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
I'll try switching to a projector that likes being photographed more.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #22 of 55 Old 09-09-2017, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I'm sorry you feel that way.
I'll try switching to a projector that likes being photographed more.
Changing up Projectors hasn't made any difference in the past. (scan lines notwithstanding...) The Camera cannot turn a Sow's Ear into a Silk Purse. It can put a bit of "Lipstick on the Pig"....but even then, it cannot do much to improve the thing's overall complexion.

You "should" try the Photo tips I provided you at least 2 years back, done in the attempt to see if that might make your efforts look remotely like you say they do in person. I was trying to help...not hinder.

The facts are these:

The screen must have an abundance of "equal" illumination. You like to tout about how advanced metallic screens have edge dimming (...when no one else ever sees such....) and you state how some of your paints have gain levels slightly in excess of 1.0.

Well beyond the eye's capabilities, a camera's tendency is to show a overly bright central area if one exists, especially an inexpensive (poor) one. Instead, if the screen is not providing enough saturated light / color, the image will be dim...dull. Even in the dark...where it should at least hold an advantage. Things get decidedly worse if you try to take shots of a non-contrast enhancing surface in ambient light. Even a Matte Grey surface under ambient fails to impress in any direct comparison to a properly enhanced Metallic mix.

My screen shots look as they do because the screen is producing excellent uniformity and extremely dynamic colorization. Also, Blacks and Grey-scale are being deepened / highlighted respectfully. Everything about the properly formulated metallic Mixes lends itself to providing those attributes.

Your insistence that a common Matte White,(...or Matte Grey) viewed under any circumstance and with any Projector, can even equal a advanced Metallic mix is what condemns your photographic efforts and comments to being what that are.

Poorly done / presented, and misguided.

And the root of all that evil? Your insistence that it all be based around taking the least expensive route.

I've always known that a great Projector will look great on a smooth white surface...under ideally suited conditions. That's so much a given to anyone, it's almost a case of sending "Coals to Newcastle" for you to bother stating so. But even so, that is not to say that there is no room for improvement....and the results I've seen / shown so many times in the past by doing 140" to 180"+ screens getting hit by top end PJs such as the JVC x970r or the Sony VPL-VW600ES has proven that Colors and Blacks, along with Brightness can be augmented to a higher level of quality.

Even more telling is how the people with such Projectors opt to use such mixes. Kinda hard to refute that....but gosh, you go right ahead and do exactly that...you don't even acknowledge when those individuals post their results / observations...you just fall back on the old line: "You can get the same results with a $10 can of Matte White Colorspace from WalMart."

And you offer up that sort of thing after the fact and unsolicited. Basically just as a response to prior advice and decisions already made.

Here's the final say....if a poster says he simply cannot afford an advanced mix, or doesn't want to or cannot spray...I don't dog him about it or push against his choice. But you, when someone asks about using an advanced solution, you almost always inset your opinion about how unnecessary...even inappropriate it is to bother using an advanced mix as opposed to using a cheaper, basic Matte "whatever".

That's just not so...and will remain not so...even when PJ's get to all having 3000+ Lumen - 500K:1 Native Contrast - true 4K Resolution, and cost <$1000.00

If you'd only qualify your remarks with, "You can get satisfactory results under the right conditions using a basic Matte color, if you cannot afford or cannot attempt an advanced mix." ........then your commentary would hold value and relevance.

But by sayin' "You don't need to use an advanced Mix. A basic Matte White or Grey will do just as good.....even in ambient light."

That's where all the difference between dispensing good and bad advice lies.

Absolutely people need to know about all the choices available. They just also need to know the real and pertinent facts....not read comments that run contrary to common sense and known results...just for the sake of their being contrary to advice already. dispensed.

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post #23 of 55 Old 09-09-2017, 07:11 AM
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Spoiler!

Hopefully these won't be as distracting with scanlines etc..





I'll definitely recommend a nicely light-controlled room when using a white screen/paint, but that's not hard nor expensive. Most hometheater light-control is pretty common-sense stuff.

Plus, you'll want a smooth, flat, white surface to paint a fancier mix upon, right?
Unless you plan to put a fancy mix directly over a dark-colored wall, you might as well use a particularly nice flat white as the under-coat...it costing only $10/gallon is simply icing on the cake.
And because you'll be painting it white as an under-coating anyway, why not spend a little time projecting onto the white to see how you feel?
If you don't like it, cool, it's just the base coat before the mix goes on.
If you DO like it, great, then your screen-painting is already done.
Win/win. There's literally zero risk.
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File Type: jpg White WM on-axis lights on.jpg (615.7 KB, 281 views)
File Type: jpg White BW off-axis lights on.jpg (688.5 KB, 281 views)

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #24 of 55 Old 09-09-2017, 02:06 PM
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Better...but still dull, without any dynamic range or color saturation. Blacks that are blacker because the light is attenuated are essentially crushed Blacks...and without any dynamic range in the contrast, detail is also crushed to non-existence.

There is a exponential difference between your White, and my Light Grey Metallic / Poly mix. I whatever amount of light.

All images taken in motion....no "Pause".







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post #25 of 55 Old 09-09-2017, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Better...but still dull, without any dynamic range or color saturation. Blacks that are blacker because the light is attenuated are essentially crushed Blacks...and without any dynamic range in the contrast, detail is also crushed to non-existence.

There is a exponential difference between your White, and my Light Grey Metallic / Poly mix. I whatever amount of light.
I don't agree with your negative opinion, but that's okay.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #26 of 55 Old 09-10-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I don't agree with your negative opinion, but that's okay.
The only person whose opinion / thoughts matter in the long run in this discourse is Mega. I hope we will hear / see him chime in.

But one might not blame him for not taking a particular stance / side publicly.

And that's okay too.

But I'll venture these points:

  • If a projected image on a surface can start out having improved(deeper) blacks as well as more vibrant colors, due to the composition of the surface used, surely it only stands to reason it's performance in / under less than ideal circumstances will be improved over that of a projected image that lacks those added attributes. Surely so.


  • It's a completely valid and accepted premise that a Grey surface has more ambient light resistance than a white surface.


  • If the Grey surface does not attenuate reflected light below the foot lambert level a Matte White is capable of providing, then the improvements that such a Grey surface provides in Blacks and Color rendition must...out of hand...be a decided improvement over a Matte White. There is that "IF" in there, but that "IF" has been shown to be a given in most all advanced DIY Screen formula cases.

  • Cost and effort is something that should be considered a preeminent consideration. That said...if it is within the capabilities and budget of the DIY'er, it should be considered a essentially necessary course of action...not discounted outright or shoved aside for the sake of "cheaper or easier" solutions that can "make do".

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post #27 of 55 Old 09-10-2017, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
If a projected image on a surface can start out having improved(deeper) blacks as well as more vibrant colors, due to the composition of the surface used, surely it only stands to reasonit's performance in / under less than ideal circumstances will be improved over that of a projected image that lacks those added attributes.
Agreed. An ALR screen is a very appropriate choice in a room that's poorly setup for projection.

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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
It's a completely valid and accepted premise that a Grey surface has more ambient light resistance than a white surface.
Agreed. A grey screen makes perfect sense when light-control isn't an option.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
If the Grey surface does not attenuate reflected light below the foot lambert level a Matte White is capable of providing, then the improvements that such a Grey surface provides in Blacks and Color rendition must...out of hand...be a decided improvement over a Matte White. There is that "IF" in there, but that "IF" has been shown to be a given in most all advanced DIY Screen formula cases.
A grey painted screen with gain increased back up to 1.0 or higher will not be as uniform nor as perfectly artifact-free as a flat-white, but some people won't notice these imperfections..so it depends on the user.

The black-level/contrast advantage of a grey screen compared to a flat white can be significant in a poorly light-controlled room with an aggressive enough (dark-colored) screen, but a light-grey ~1.0-1.2gain screen will only offer minimal black-level improvements in a poor room and little/no improvements in a good room.
This is agreed upon by practically every expert and knowledgeable projection enthusiast. Ask around, this forum actually has quite a few big-name professionals and experts who are friendly and willing to answer questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Cost and effort is something that should be considered a preeminent consideration. That said...if it is within the capabilities and budget of the DIY'er, it should be considered a essentially necessary course of action...not discounted outright or shoved aside for the sake of "cheaper or easier" solutions that can "make do".
I would not suggest someone simply "make do" with a DIY grey screen like a bandaid for a dedicated theater which could easily use smart light-control to achieve peak black-level/contrast performance with a white screen.

But, if light-control remains a problem, then a grey screen can help make off-axis lights and reflections less of an issue.

Luckily, many 1.0+gain grey screen mixes want a bright white surface to start with, so it's not difficult to experience both if you want.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #28 of 55 Old 09-10-2017, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
The only person whose opinion / thoughts matter in the long run in this discourse is Mega. I hope we will hear / see him chime in.
I really appreciate all the debate on paint color. Regardless of opinions and expertise levels, it's forcing me to learn more and more about it, and I still have a lot to learn. On one hand, since I'm putting a lot of energy into making sure the lighting of my room is ideal, white would be an "obvious" choice. But MississippiMan, you have made many excellent points about why grey might still be better even in a "perfectly" list room such as:
- someone wants the light on
- people opening the door
- helping the borderless screen disappear

So I'm leaning towards grey with enough gain to not lose anything I'd get from white. But I still have several months to make that decision final.

Now... slight topic change mainly because this decision needs to be made quickly:

The ceiling fan issue.

I started visualizing my room top down... so I drew it with a pair of 36" fans to the sides (wife talked me out of a single off-center fan because of the odd symmetry and I agree).

The 36" fans I had based my model on even had light kits. They had a flush-mount option that makes the entire fan 14.7" tall.

Fan: http://www.hunterfan.com/Ceiling-Fan...elNumber=59302
Specs: http://www.hunterfan.com/Printable-S...elNumber=59302

Then I realized the most useful view of my room regarding fans, etc., would be from the side. So I started working on that, and to my surprise, the fan did not seem to be an issue at all. The projected image clears the fan easy even if it was centered. I started looking at other fans and there are a lot of good options that would be at or below 15" and it would be cutting it close but looking at my image an 18" fan would barely work. If you can't tell I would still much prefer a large 54" fan in the center.

But... I'm a novice... I'm probably missing something, so can you guys look at my sketches and see if I messed up anything?

Each square on both the top and side view are 1 foot. I obviously made the right number of squares on both versions to match the room. I dropped the projector a little over 1 foot to give about 7 feet of clearance above the 10" platform. The projector is 14' from the wall. I started the bottom of the projected image 2 feet off the floor which is good for the seating height (I think). The wall image is 10' wide and 5'6" tall.

I haven't finished the side view yet, but as soon as I got the fan and projector on there I wanted to show you.

Top view: The red are the wall sconces for lights, the purple are the fans, and I think everything else is self explanatory. I'll prolly never have 7.1.4 but that's how they are gonna wire it... and I'll prolly have 7.1 at first and then 5.1.4 which is why I am having them wire 11 speaker channels.
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post #29 of 55 Old 09-10-2017, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
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Now... slight topic change mainly because this decision needs to be made quickly:

The ceiling fan issue...

.
Having my fan off-centre doesn't seem to impair it's main task of gently moving the air in the room. Nor has anyone remarked on it.

If you decide to go with two row seating then it looks like you'll have problems with line of sight from the back row seeing the bottom of the screen. I would not force myself into a compromised projection geometry for the sake of a centred ceiling fan.

The other factor is that fans are often a bit noisy and two fans doubly so.

In the olden days commercial theatres used off centre ceiling fans ( I know cause I operated one... ).

Last edited by DunMunro; 09-10-2017 at 10:33 PM.
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post #30 of 55 Old 09-10-2017, 11:22 PM
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Mega,


I suggest 4" Eyeball or Position-able "SPOT" (Halogen...not LED) Place no Lighting within 6' forward of the screen...in fact really, the first row of Spots should be directly over and on a line with the 1st Row of Seating.


The choice of a Dimmer...also important. I always specify the Lutron MIR-600THW-GR, a Remote Controllable Dimmer that costs under $40.00, and can easily handle 8 lights.


Lights? Can't do much better than these. You even get the Halogen Spot Lamps included.

Would that setup be contralable with a logitech harmony elite?
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