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post #1 of 61 Old 09-18-2017, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Best Material

What would you think would be the best material from Carl's for a 20x27 bat cave with black walls and ceiling for an Epson 6040 projector? Wanting to do between a 150-175" screen with around an 18-22' throw. Thank you.
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post #2 of 61 Old 09-18-2017, 05:26 AM
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Flexi-White......no question about it.

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post #3 of 61 Old 09-18-2017, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. That is what I was thinking, but the sales guy kept trying to tell us that we wanted a gray screen to pop the blacks. I wanted the true expert advice.
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post #4 of 61 Old 09-18-2017, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by smilingangel View Post
Thank you. That is what I was thinking, but the sales guy kept trying to tell us that we wanted a gray screen to pop the blacks. I wanted the true expert advice.
Well.....he's right to an extent.

But your screen is gonna be a biggun'...so you don't want to attenuate any of the light you receive.

Besides....what with such a large image, the natural reduction of lumen-delivered light to the screen from a long throw distance will also deepen Blacks to an extent anyway...much the same as placing the PJ in Economy mode does. However in your case, with a bright PJ such as the 6040 w/Dynamic Iris, the pristine white surface will do excellently in a fully light controlled, darkened environment.

Down the road, if you want even more "Pop & Sizzle" at the given size, there are DIY oriented Paints that can ramp up the equation. But for now...go with a simple, more affordable solution because your viewing situation is basically ideal.

Note: Do try to keep your throw distance within 10% of the minimum distance required for your chosen Image size.

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post #5 of 61 Old 09-18-2017, 07:03 AM
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I completely agree. For most situations, grey screens are not necessary. Projectors are generally designed and pre-calibrated for projecting on white, and white will produce the best colors. There are situations where a grey screen might be needed, but the vast majority of the time, a white screen will be the way to go.
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post #6 of 61 Old 09-18-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by brandonmack View Post
I completely agree. For most situations, grey screens are not necessary. Projectors are generally designed and pre-calibrated for projecting on white, and white will produce the best colors. There are situations where a grey screen might be needed, but the vast majority of the time, a white screen will be the way to go.
Well I could not vouchsafe that to the extent of saying "the vast majority of time" because as of today, the "Vast majority" of end users do not / will not have ideally suited, dedicated Theaters, nor will they possess Projectors of the ilk of the top end Epson / JVC / Sony offerings.

A well chosen Projector coupled with the proper high contrast screen can deliver a more dynamic image than can a Matte White...no matter what PJ is used. (...however Grey Screens are not all equal...) I've shown that to be true when using a JVC x970r as well as a Sony 600es on such high contrast screens, in both ideally suited environments as well as in ambient light conditions . Both of those PJs can certainly and do show spectacular imagery in ideal situations, but unless those situations are ideal...and "the vast majority" of them are not...then they too can benefit from a leg-up.

It may need only be a very small assist, but if needed, even a small assist can spell the difference between complete satisfaction and poppin' a sour grape in one's mouth.
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post #7 of 61 Old 09-18-2017, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Well.....he's right to an extent.

But your screen is gonna be a biggun'...so you don't want to attenuate any of the light you receive.

Besides....what with such a large image, the natural reduction of lumen-delivered light to the screen from a long throw distance will also deepen Blacks to an extent anyway...much the same as placing the PJ in Economy mode does. However in your case, with a bright PJ such as the 6040 w/Dynamic Iris, the pristine white surface will do excellently in a fully light controlled, darkened environment.

Down the road, if you want even more "Pop & Sizzle" at the given size, there are DIY oriented Paints that can ramp up the equation. But for now...go with a simple, more affordable solution because your viewing situation is basically ideal.

Note: Do try to keep your throw distance within 10% of the minimum distance required for your chosen Image size.
I have tried to talk my husband into the paint but he doesn't think that he can't get the sheet rock finished perfect enough to throw a picture on. Plus it's in the basement and the bottom sheet is Densglass (fiberglass sheet rock) and it finishes out completely different that regular sheet rock.

The projector calculator is showing 15'-17' minimum throw for the 150"-175", so you are saying stay as close to the minimum as possible for the best view? I really appreciate this info.
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post #8 of 61 Old 09-19-2017, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Acoustic

One more question. Would the acoustic screen (7% and 9%) material throw a good image for my situation? My husband can't decide whether he wants to mount on the wall, or build out and put the center mid of the screen. Thanks.
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post #9 of 61 Old 09-19-2017, 09:55 AM
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AcousticTransparent wouldn't be as bright as the regular FlexiWhite, which could be a problem at those large sizes if you want a brighter image.
You can order a pack of Carl's samples for around $5 to get an idea how much dimmer the acoustic material is...it might be about as bright as part of your wall which you could shoot a large image on to get a feel for how you like that brightness. You might like it, but don't expect it to be as bright as plain FlexiWhite.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #10 of 61 Old 09-19-2017, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, I do not know how I missed that Carl's had sample packs. I've got one on the way with the acoustic added on. Well worth it, thank you again.
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post #11 of 61 Old 09-19-2017, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingangel View Post
Thank you, I do not know how I missed that Carl's had sample packs. I've got one on the way with the acoustic added on. Well worth it, thank you again.
Sorry you could not be told straight out it would be a waste of time. The AT material will not have the gain you need at 150" let alone 175".

Worse, the sample you'll receive is not large enough to make any really effective judgement anyway, even if my advice isn't enough. The samples are more for making 'visual" determinations as far as surface appearances. But once you purchase it (..and it's no small sized amount or expense...) your stuck, because it's not returnable once used, and you'd have to put it up to even get a idea of how it performs, And no returns from the get-go if it's custom cut by Carl's for you.

Fall back to Flexi-White, and concentrate on effective speaker placement. This is not something to leave to chance or supposition. The Flexi-White is a sure thing.
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post #12 of 61 Old 09-19-2017, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Sorry you could not be told straight out it would be a waste of time. The AT material will not have the gain you need at 150" let alone 175".

Worse, the sample you'll receive is not large enough to make any really effective judgement anyway, even if my advice isn't enough. The samples are more for making 'visual" determinations as far as surface appearances. But once you purchase it (..and it's no small sized amount or expense...) your stuck, because it's not returnable once used, and you'd have to put it up to even get a idea of how it performs, And no returns from the get-go if it's custom cut by Carl's for you.

Fall back to Flexi-White, and concentrate on effective speaker placement. This is not something to leave to chance or supposition. The Flexi-White is a sure thing.
Okay, would it be an issue having the center at about 24-26" off the ground? DH is convinced this is too low and they should be at ear level, I am convinced I'll be reclined full back and my ears will be at 24".
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post #13 of 61 Old 09-19-2017, 09:15 PM
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Okay, would it be an issue having the center at about 24-26" off the ground? DH is convinced this is too low and they should be at ear level, I am convinced I'll be reclined full back and my ears will be at 24".
With most "Enclosure-style" center channels, positioning either directly below or above is the norm. Above, angled slightly down in to the seating area is the best, and really the only effective method if there are two rows of Seating.

Below...angled slightly upward....with one Row, but you should belive than a very many still do such with 2 Rows...usually though because they have no choice.

That last thingee is the primary reason AT Screens are considered .

The object being to create a sonic image of center channel content coming from the center area of the image...a critical aspect of dialogue content. That is still completely doable with a under-the-screen positioning, and still a practical solution IF there is one row of seating.

Many enclosed Center Channel Speakers have angled faces or cabinets because it patently obvious that:

  • Fewer people have two rows of seats than have one row.
  • If a Speaker is to be mounted low, it must be at least slightly pitched upward.


Of course, anytime the Center can be placed above the Screen and angled downward, that would be ideal. But logistically, that's a difficult thing to accomplish if the Center Channel enclosure is sizable. In-Wall Center Channels are another solution, but they too should have position-able Drivers / Tweeters, or be mounted si that their Face is in a "Canted" position.


Would you have detrimental sound with a Center placed at 26" off the floor? I really don't think so if it services only 1 Row of seating.
Would it be ideal? No...but certainly not a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.



Now with all that said, myself... I would do everything I could to place the Center above the Screen and angled downward. I'd prefer to recess it almost completely, or barring that, as deeply as possible. Been there...done that...both instances.


If you determine that you can / want to mount it higher...I can supply photos of similar installations. Lower? Well that's an easier do if it's placed on a stand...and they do make stands expressly for that purpose.

But......I still hold to the proposition that trying to go "AT" will detract from the potential image quality....enough to matter. But lets qualify that...if you view content in complete darkness, with a .8 gain AT surface....you can get by.

I'm just not much into "gettin by".


PS. Who's DH?

(Da Hub?)

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post #14 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 04:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
W
If you determine that you can / want to mount it higher...I can supply photos of similar installations. Lower? Well that's an easier do if it's placed on a stand...and they do make stands expressly for that purpose.

PS. Who's DH?

(Da Hub?)
Yes, Da Hubby, Dear Husband, any other D word depending upon the situation - lol. Yes, I would love to see photos of the above the screen installation. We had planned on two rows, with us spending most of the time on the back row. Until I sat in a double row, reclined and realized that the front of the chair in front of me was distracting. At the moment, the plan is a row of 4 with some bean bags tossed around. We have the Klipsch 450 Center Channel (if that helps any.)
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There's nothing wrong with using a single row and some beanbag chairs if that's what you like best, but if your ceiling height isn't a problem, you might find that a slightly higher than average riser/platform for a back row lets you enjoy two rows with the front only being about as distracting as a low table or ottoman.
I'm not sure if that's an option for you, but it could be something to think about if you still like the idea of two rows of seats.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #16 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingangel View Post
Yes, Da Hubby, Dear Husband, any other D word depending upon the situation - lol. Yes, I would love to see photos of the above the screen installation. We had planned on two rows, with us spending most of the time on the back row. Until I sat in a double row, reclined and realized that the front of the chair in front of me was distracting. At the moment, the plan is a row of 4 with some bean bags tossed around. We have the Klipsch 450 Center Channel (if that helps any.)
It helps me to know, but at 14.5" deep it does make for a more difficult placement, but worth trying because that is a very nice Center Channel.

In the last installation where I fully recessed a large Center Channel (Polk Audio CS10) it was placed into / through a Screen Wall built to cover an existing Window. AT material was not considered viable because the extremely close seating would have made any weave or perforation quite noticeable, and with the PJ being a 4K JVC, that would have been just......."DH" (damn horrible)

The installation shown below had a Center Channel speaker with 1/2 the depth of the Klipsch, but also nowhere near the available "build-out" room you have. My opinion? It would be worth considering building a Wall just to be able to flush mount the Klipsch "above" the screen, thereby appeasing the DH's sensibilities, and also allowing you to consider at least 2 Rows (w/appropriately high enough riser )







In considering all aspects of a Theater's design, the "I wish I would'a..." syndrome can be a very good source of future disgruntlement. Money will be spent, and the wise decision always reaps the longest term benefit.

Consider this...if you have two rows, and don't like seeing a Chair in front of you...furgudness sake...sit up front! You have enough space, ya know. And...you'll be no worse off than if you were restricted to just one row anyway. But...without two rows, for the money spent, you'll have considerably less seating, and the folks sitting at the sides will have a lessor experience.

So....choose wisely.
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post #17 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 06:09 AM - Thread Starter
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We just measured the other day and we have 8'8" ceiling height in the room. The pictures help tremendously. A faux wall wouldn't be a problem to build, DH was already thinking along those lines or building a stage to set the center on. We've built the whole house ourselves, so one more wall isn't that big of a deal.

I've always considered wanting to sit further back because of light sensitivity being a migraine trigger for me. It may not be that much of an issue in a very dark environment. A riser hasn't be ruled out yet either. I honestly think we have more decisions to make in this one room than we've had in the entire house build. The projector is ordered and should be here within a few days or early next week. I think shooting it onto the naked wall and checking size and seat location might help me visualize things better. I just want the best viewing/listening experience than we can get with our set up.
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post #18 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 06:25 AM
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Where in AR do you live?

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post #19 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm in the SW corner, about 35 miles east of Texarkana, and about 50 miles north of Bossier City, LA.
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post #20 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 08:37 AM
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Darn...I was hoping you might be closer to Memphis. I thought you might benefit from some on-site help / advice.

I'd probably only make it to Hot Springs before I'd have to stop & soak myself.
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post #21 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 02:52 PM
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Using a 6040 on a 150" AT screen can get curious results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
Sorry you could not be told straight out it would be a waste of time. The AT material will not have the gain you need at 150"....

Fall back to Flexi-White, and concentrate on effective speaker placement. This is not something to leave to chance or supposition. The Flexi-White is a sure thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post
...in you case, image clarity rules...especially at 150".
Instead...consider the actual facts surrounding the use of W/B Spandex with the 6040 in your particular situation.
  • 16' Throw
  • 150" 2.39:1 Screen (58" x 139")
  • .7 gain Spandex Screen ( ...and I believe it to be slightly higher than that....)

Combining those figures equals a full 23 ft Lambert of reflected brightness. And Good Lordy Gordy!

Even if you get someone stating the Spandex screen was / is just .6 /.5 gain, you'll still be way inside any acceptable parameter of desirable screen brightness in a dedicated Theater Room, and also doing just fine thank you in low ambient light..

As someone who has actually used Spandex with 5030s & 5040s at 140"-150", I know exactly wherein I'm speaking from.
.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #22 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smilingangel View Post
We just measured the other day and we have 8'8" ceiling height in the room. The pictures help tremendously. A faux wall wouldn't be a problem to build, DH was already thinking along those lines or building a stage to set the center on. We've built the whole house ourselves, so one more wall isn't that big of a deal.

I've always considered wanting to sit further back because of light sensitivity being a migraine trigger for me. It may not be that much of an issue in a very dark environment. A riser hasn't be ruled out yet either. I honestly think we have more decisions to make in this one room than we've had in the entire house build. The projector is ordered and should be here within a few days or early next week. I think shooting it onto the naked wall and checking size and seat location might help me visualize things better. I just want the best viewing/listening experience than we can get with our set up.
Your tall ceiling and building experience should work out really nicely if you decide to use a riser and second row.


Ignoring the measurements above being different for your situation, the riser puts the front seats much lower in your vision..and your extra 8inches of ceiling height means you could easily go 8inches higher than average (an 18inch riser, for example) which could make the front seats feel like they're only 1ft-1.5ft off the floor when sitting in the back row. If you reclined, you'd barely see them over your knees/feet.

Of course a less extreme riser can still make a nice difference, especially if your earlier 2row experience didn't use a riser at all.
The room's length and height sounds like it could work wonderfully with two rows of seats.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #23 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 06:04 PM
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Ftoast is trying to use two distinctly different situations, and the advice given to each to dispute the validity of both.

Typical, but misleading. In this case I was referring to Carl's AT material. A proven under-performer with noticeable texture.

Spandex never entered into discussion because if a solid screen could be utilized, so much more so the better.

Now if a Spandex AT screen was to be considered, the Thread Starter would still be better served by following a distinct and directed reccomendation than being sent off on a trail of guesswork.

The DH wouldn't stand for it.

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post #24 of 61 Old 09-20-2017, 06:37 PM
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Spoiler!

They're similar screen-size, same projector and both are large rooms with long seating-distance.
Both could be brighter with a non-AT screen and both could hide speakers by using an AT screen if desired.

Mississippi's comments about one case being so dim that it's a waste of time while the other was more than bright enough to go even larger if desired with a lower gain material..those claims have an interesting duality.

If AcousticTransparency is something you happen to feel strongly about, it's just as much NOT a waste of time for you as it is for the similar situation.
I do agree that a brighter material can be a safer choice at these sizes.

Samples help eliminate guesswork.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #25 of 61 Old 09-21-2017, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there any acoustic screen out there (that won't break the bank under $500 for my size) that would be acceptable under our situation. I'm still not sold on 2 full rows yet, as we usually don't have more than 2-3 people over at a time. Mainly it will be DH, myself and 2 little dogs watching. I don't want the screen to big the weak link in our system though. When we demo'ed the projector he tried to sell us on a $5000 screen and there is just no way.
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post #26 of 61 Old 09-21-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by smilingangel View Post
Is there any acoustic screen out there (that won't break the bank under $500 for my size) that would be acceptable under our situation. I'm still not sold on 2 full rows yet, as we usually don't have more than 2-3 people over at a time. Mainly it will be DH, myself and 2 little dogs watching. I don't want the screen to big the weak link in our system though. When we demo'ed the projector he tried to sell us on a $5000 screen and there is just no way.
There are 3 AT materials from Carl's carlofet.com now, their sheerweave which has been around for a while and their newer 7%nano and 9%perf which you mentioned earlier which I believe all come in a ways under $500 at ~175".
There's also Seymour XD and UF screen material which costs between $200-$300 at 175" through Seymour's online shop (I didn't realize the Seymour DIY natural was so affordable).
And there's matte milliskin spandex (typically found at spandexworld online) which will cost even less while looking cleaner up close (less artifacted but also less crisply focused) but also likely dimmer.

I recommend getting samples of all six and attaching them to lay flat and side-by-side (likely three as a top row and three as a bottom row) onto a black foamboard panel (one of those 30"x20" art/craft boards...black will help make sure the panel doesn't add brightness). This will let you center them all together and project a white field onto them to directly compare brightness AND check (using both a white field and some regular content) if any of them have holes/perforations that can be seen from your seating-distance along with any other visible artifacts.
The Seymour and sheerweave should be impressive, but the perfed FlexiWhite is a pretty new product..sounds like a nicely small perf though.

You can also try some simple sounds tests with the samples between you and your speakers at some different distances from the speakers. Not at all scientific, but might let you know if something is immediately bad enough to leave out..especially if your system doesn't have an auto EQ feature of some kind.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #27 of 61 Old 09-21-2017, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I recommend getting samples of all six and attaching them to lay flat and side-by-side (likely three as a top row and three as a bottom row) onto a black foamboard panel (one of those 30"x20" art/craft boards...black will help make sure the panel doesn't add brightness). This will let you center them all together and project a white field onto them to directly compare brightness AND check (using both a white field and some regular content) if any of them have holes/perforations that can be seen from your seating-distance along with any other visible artifacts.
The Seymour and sheerweave should be impressive, but the perfed FlexiWhite is a pretty new product..sounds like a nicely small perf though.
That is a good idea. I received the Carl's samples in today. DH right off the bat did not like the look of the AT ones at all. I did order the Seymour samples today through Jon. Hope to have them in right around the time the projector gets here (Tuesday). Right now I am looking at spandex world to get a sample ordered from there.
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post #28 of 61 Old 09-21-2017, 03:37 PM
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That is a good idea. I received the Carl's samples in today. DH right off the bat did not like the look of the AT ones at all. I did order the Seymour samples today through Jon. Hope to have them in right around the time the projector gets here (Tuesday). Right now I am looking at spandex world to get a sample ordered from there.
If he mentioned anything specific, what did he not like about the Carl's samples without trying a projector on them?
Do they look weird all the way from the screen area to your seats or was there something else?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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post #29 of 61 Old 09-22-2017, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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If he mentioned anything specific, what did he not like about the Carl's samples without trying a projector on them?
Do they look weird all the way from the screen area to your seats or was there something else?
He thought the holes looked too big and that he just could not fathom how it wouldn't "pixelate" the image. We are going to try them, because he just really can't get past needing to put the center behind the screen. I am hopeful that the Seymour XD will be a much "tighter" weave.
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post #30 of 61 Old 09-22-2017, 05:04 AM
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An understandable concern. Hopefully you both find them all to look good from the seats with the projector hitting them, and then you simply have to pick the one you like best between performance and price.

Spandex should have the least visible holes/weave, but it'll be helpful if the Seymour options look both smooth and noticeably brighter. Of course if you don't notice much of a brightness improvement between Seymour and spandex, the spandex is easily the most affordable.
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Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415
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