A better grey screen - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 918 Old 04-25-2006, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

Stay tuned. Lightning is about to strike twice.

Wasn't CMRA's claim the subject of my posts? Still waiting for Johnla to post on topic though (I mean if you want to). You know, for a thread about a better gray screen, I would have thought there'd be more interest in discussing it.
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post #722 of 918 Old 04-25-2006, 09:03 PM
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By the way, I wonder what happened to the shootouts, MM"s and then the chicago shoutout (Patricks)
and the feedback and attendance from the virginia gathering. These are reasons I pop in this forum now and again. Looking to the Results from efforts and claims pending.
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post #723 of 918 Old 04-25-2006, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

You know, for a thread about a better gray screen, I would have thought there'd be more interest in discussing it.

Not when you have the same people who ruin these threads time after time and all of them say they are innocent, its everyone else's fault.
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post #724 of 918 Old 04-25-2006, 10:11 PM
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Alan, Nice to see you .
Right you are.
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post #725 of 918 Old 04-26-2006, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Not when you have the same people who ruin these threads time after time and all of them say they are innocent, its everyone else's fault.

Alan,
Please be more specific. Your comments are left open to speculation by those who want to deny responsibility, and leaves those who want to see offenders specifically addressed and held responsible left wanting.

1Time came on with an obviously offhanded "Jimbra" insult, (Post 702) steadfastedly has denied the obvious, and then tried to then twist it into his being innocent and others being off topic. Now as you can see, and even though I'm sure you meant otherwise, Recar apparently construes your remarks as being in agreement with 1Time.

I'd like to see the issue be made very clear, and without any chance that it be used to the benefit of such behaviour.

Since not a single one of the 4 posts (703-708-714-719) I put up since 1Time's ditty were either abusive or ruinous, and you responded to 1Time with a quote of his, I chose to believe your comments were directed specifically at 1Time's behaviour. I asked him to clarify, he ignored the requests. Everyone can plainly see that, but some clarification by you can go a long way toward nipping such things in the bud.

Thank you.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #726 of 918 Old 04-26-2006, 04:01 AM
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Glad to see nothing has changed around here.

I think the point Alan was trying to make is that you are all acting like children.
SOme kids are know it alls and bossy, some are whiney, some are always trying to sell you their lunch. All in all it makes this forum a chore to read, and takes all the spirit out of tinkering with paints and materials. Hence the reason for my departure. Until Alan cleans this forum up, it wont be worth the bandwidth its wasting.

IMO this forums needs some TIME OFF like the HT gaming forum got.

Too bad really.

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post #727 of 918 Old 04-26-2006, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

Glad to see nothing has changed around here.

Too bad really.

Actually, it has changed quite a bit as of late. And for the better. But still some of the same determined distracters continue to bait and be abusive. Some do it with Smilies inserted. Others more obstrusively.

Though it all runs an undercurrent of resentment over the fact that a few people do get a lot of attention for their efforts. Many are the posts by those same few people who complain about stagnation, or how peoples' time is being wasted on the focusing on a particular application. Yet if they start a thread, they too want it to become widely read, and left alone by dissenters of their own opinions.

It's all about how people respond to the posting of others that really makes the difference. If someone comes onto a thread throwing down Gauntlets, what is to be expected? To that effect, it's obvious who the people are who look forward to creating confrontation, even through "one liners".

I'm able to converse at any time without any degree of animosity, apparent or veiled, but after having been the specific target of a few individuals for so long, I'm also not in the mood to let their own transgressions slide by. The vast majority of others feel likewise, and for the most part, such disenchantment is being addressed directly to the Mods for appropriate action. My own posted responses have been measured and will continue to be so. Childish behavior comes from those who do in fact want to spoil things for others, not from those who strive to keep things pleasant and constructive. Lumping everyone together only shields the actions of those who are responsible for all the disruption and antagonism.

So let's all get back to being constructive DIY'ers. CMRA will post up his content in his own time, the immediate urgings to do so and comparisons to Jimbra notwithstanding. Only those interested need frequent this thread to catch the info when presented, or if impatient, delve into the content within for their own approximation of the relevancy that lies within.

Since I will not write another specific post on this subject, I'll edit in a response to BigLyle's comment below, then move on to discussing "A Better Grey Screen".

You know I was speaking in generalities, and that it is the opinions and beliefs of others and how they both feel, and by virtue of what they have posted that I referred to, not my own beliefs. I "get it" alright, and what I get is exactly this. A few others, as well as you, always twist everything to your own purposes. None of this is about "me", but it serves your purpose to make it appear so.

BTW, much of the discord that has been blissfully absent is directly tied to your having been absent. Go figure. Then contemplate the reasons why.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #728 of 918 Old 04-26-2006, 05:59 AM
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"Though it all runs an undercurrent of resentment over the fact that a few people do get a lot of attention for their efforts."

This sums up your arrogance in one sentance Maurice.

This forum is suppose to be about DIY screens, not the people who make them. Untill you realize that, you will never get it.
I guess we all need to feel wanted somewhere.

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post #729 of 918 Old 04-26-2006, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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May I have my thread back now?

Moving right along, I have photo documentation of my newest efforts. I'll speak with Alan or David first before posting, as I don't want screenshot or bandwith issues to contend with.
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post #730 of 918 Old 04-26-2006, 04:39 PM
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I'd sure like to see your screenshots. If you need them hosted, let me know and I'll do it.
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post #731 of 918 Old 04-27-2006, 06:01 AM
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1st time poster, what DIY screen formula would I use for the Panny 900


thanks
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post #732 of 918 Old 04-27-2006, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfixa View Post

1st time poster, what DIY screen formula would I use for the Panny 900


thanks

Hi, mrfixa,

Always great to welcome a new member!

Three schools exist on the subject. However subtile and not-so-subtile differences make the choice dependent on someone's viewing habits, viewing conditions, expectations, and budget. I'll not venture to suggest any "pure" surfaces such as Parkland, Black Out Cloth(BOC) , Formica and such, for there are Threads dedicated to those items. IMO, everyone can benefit from, and offer more when "coated" so for now, to me at least, they stand only to serve as the "Canvas" for what can become a work of art.

For Dark Room Viewing w/a 900 when no Contrast enhancement is desired:

A Reference white medium. UPW (simplest) or White MMud ( less simple...Mo Bedder.)

For Dark Room Viewing w/a 900 when Contrast enhancement IS desired:

UPW with Lamp Black added (simplest) or RS-MaxxMud ( less simple...MUCH Mo Bedder.)

Ambient Light? Preference demands I suggest Black Flame Lite w/Black Gold Top Coat. But "Good" results can come easier with a slightly muted Silver mix. That brings up the topic of this thread.

At this point, it's best to have you either focus on this thread's offerings, or go to the Thread Index, and choose any Thread that contains mention of the applications listed herein. As your peruse though a few, you'll pick up quickly on the differing opinions on what is "best" for a few as opposed to what is "acceptable" to many.

My suggestion? Pick the DIY application that is what you consider represents the best potential for your PJ and viewing lifestyle, DIY ability, and budget, then make it no more than 120" diagonal (...the panny's reasonable limits...) .

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #733 of 918 Old 04-27-2006, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55 View Post

I'd sure like to see your screenshots. If you need them hosted, let me know and I'll do it.

Thanks, that may just be the ticket. There are some screenies available from December 2003 prior to the formula post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post3051872

on this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post2999142

The actual formulation hasn't changed. What has is the application. At the time I only had rolling equipment. Now, of course, I have a HVLP latex spraying setup. (and my secret screen/pj setup which has yet to be revealed).

The next efforts involve going extreme. This is done by spraying the topcoat directly on top of a silver metallic substraight. In addition, another test panel involves replacing the silver metallic with rustoleum 7715. This assumes I can get the latex to adhere to the oil base 7715.

Two caveats going silver. Hot/warm spotting can be an issue. Unlike gray, such as ME, silver tends to magnify SDE and artifacts whereas ME mitigates the like. More later.
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post #734 of 918 Old 04-27-2006, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Hi, mrfixa,

My suggestion? Pick the DIY application that is what you consider represents the best potential for your PJ and viewing lifestyle, DIY ability, and budget, then make it no more than 120" diagonal (...the panny's reasonable limits...) .

Hi,
Thanks MM, for all your time devoted to AVS.
1) As for the Panny's limitations would that be 120" diagonal 16.9, I assume?
I ask because some of us are considering 2.35 screens which at similar diagonals is actually smaller in area. (A 120" 2.35, eg, is about 5189 sq inches, and a 120" 16.9 is about 6139 sq inches. )
2) If it's reasonable for my Panny, I'd like at least a 128" diag 2.35 (50.1 inches by 117.8). At that height I'd get about a 102" diagonal when displaying 16.9 material. I have my projector as far back as it will go, and practicing on a bare wall, it seems to work fine, or at least it's within the PJ's range. If I crank it all the way, I can get 136" diagonal 2.35/ 108" diag 16.9, but that might be really pushing it?
3) With painted dark walls, if I'm planning to watch at night, mostly, but wouldnt mind a screen that was watchable say, an hour or so before dark, what would you think of a simple mix of:
3 parts SS silverscreen, and
1 part WOP White Opal Pearlescent
(NJ Bill T suggested this mix in the thread, Next Option If SS is too dark).
And would I need to add a little Poly or silver or . . . ? Or would I be better off trying one of the mixes you mentioned in your last post?
I'd be rolling on MDF.

thanks so much, ray
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post #735 of 918 Old 04-27-2006, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

The next efforts involve going extreme. This is done by spraying the topcoat directly on top of a silver metallic substraight. In addition, another test panel involves replacing the silver metallic with rustoleum 7715. This assumes I can get the latex to adhere to the oil base 7715.

Two caveats going silver. Hot/warm spotting can be an issue. Unlike gray, such as ME, silver tends to magnify SDE and artifacts whereas ME mitigates the like. More later.

No problem getting latex to adhere to the oil based aluminum. I have tried many variations of different latex paints over oil based aluminum paints. No problems at all with an HVLP or roller. You will warm spot with silver and you will magnify SDE and artifacts. But nothing pops off like a high gain silver!! Add a little flat white and satin clear to reduce SDE and increase cone. That's what I currently have up on my screen. No topcoat. It lowers the ambient viewing power and dulls out the colours.

Meow.
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post #736 of 918 Old 04-27-2006, 10:18 PM
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Hello All, I have a Z1 and I am looking for a screen. Is this the best diy solution for the Z1 in a light controlled room? ME or the Silver formula? Or is there something better now?

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post #737 of 918 Old 04-28-2006, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayboy View Post

Hi,

(NJ Bill T suggested this mix in the thread, Next Option If SS is too dark).
And would I need to add a little Poly or silver or . . . ? Or would I be better off trying one of the mixes you mentioned in your last post?
I'd be rolling on MDF.

thanks so much, ray

Ray,

When one starts to compare several Mixes and asks for a judgement to be given, either the provider of such knowledge must remain neutral, or come down on the side of what "he" thinks is best.

FWIW, any solution that starts with Silver Screen starts at a disadvantage. The crux of SS threads is to try to use a basic & cheap paint, and then mitigate it's fallacies. If straight out performance is desired, one does not tie one's feet together before a foot race, hoping to find a knife lying on the track after they start hopping along.

CMRA's Silver is very high gain. Some attenuation of the reflectivity is absolutely necessary for it to be applicable with any PJ over 800 Lumens. Resolution issues have been effectively reduced with the reduction of apparent SDE, but as far as rolling, one would have to effect a perfect laydown of paint, with el'zilcho roller marks, or you WILL see them like they were intentionally added.

If modest Ambient light performance, and great color rendition is desired..., along with an increase in perceived Contrast WITHOUT employing the 'crush oriented' BLE features of the Panny, then you should consider one of the other mixes previously mentioned.

Wanna experiment? Just as benven has just suggested, the addition of a muting agent such a Flat (Matte) Clear Poly can tame the issues of CMRA's application, or you can apply it directly on top by itself or mixed with your "Base', but still you must realize that any re-application of ANYTHING over such a surface as "Pure Silver" must go down perfectly or it's all for naught.

So rolling is out for any true "pure Silver" whose "pure" surface is to be the surface that you watch. Cover that Silver with a Top Coat of something, and your accommodating far more variables in PJ and room situations. But your also deviating from the "purity' of the application as well.

My final answer? If you can wait a little, spend the time necessary to review as many applications as possible. To avoid re-directing threads off topic by asking for comparisons between the featured project and other mixes, send the advocates of various applications PMs for specific advice, or opinions. Most will be both fair in their evaluation of what they advocate as opposed to what your inquire about.

That includes me as well. I can suggest at least 5 different applications for the Panny, and each has it's strong points and caveats. For some of those, only some additional expense and effort is required. Other demand spraying. Others roll right on. But all of them do not start out on a premise that you have a problem/s to solve to get them to work well.

As far as this application, it is a work under review by the Author. He's spraying his new Prototypes (...or has them done by now...) With a sprayed surface, perhaps some of the biggest issues might be mitigated or erased altogether. No matter what, you can count on CMRA to "Tell it like it is" so once again, I suggest waiting, reading, and evaluating all your sources, including this thread, and absorb as much input for as long as you can, then adapt what you've learned to you own desires and needs.

Do that, and YOU can claim most of the credit for what you accomplish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post

Hello All, I have a Z1 and I am looking for a screen. Is this the best diy solution for the Z1 in a light controlled room? ME or the Silver formula? Or is there something better now?


BoomerBrian,

Good to hear from you again. The Z1 is the PJ CMRA cut his collective Eye Teeth on. It's not too bright a PJ, and it does have a few issues that pertain to resolution and color, but those can be accomodated, as evidenced by CMRA's previous exellent Screenies on ME- Super Deluxe (SM/Clear Plexi/MMud)-and Light Fusion.

I'd suggest RS-MaxxMudd LL. PM PB-Maxx or go to the RS-MaxxMudd Questions thread for additional help or info, and PM CMRA for his advice as well.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #738 of 918 Old 04-28-2006, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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These are your basic choices.

Just starting out? Cutting your teeth (so to speak)?

It does not get any easier than Parkland Plastics or Do-able. Basic flat PVC matte white. This is a great starting point for these reasons.

*easy as a trip to HD, Lowe's, etc.
* no muss no fuss, hang and go.
*reusable. both provide a good working surface for painting down the road.
*cheap. you can't beat $15-20 each for a ready to use 4'x8' solution.
*great to experiment on and get to know the limitations of your PJ.
*establishes a standard many here are familiar with who in turn can help you fine tune your screen efforts.

best wishes. fancy comes later.
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[quote=CMRA] It does not get any easier than Parkland Plastics or Do-able. .
.....*reusable. both provide a good working surface for painting down the road....
*great to experiment on and get to know the limitations of your PJ.

[/QUOTE

CMRA,
Yes, Do-able is a great way to get started. That's what I'm using now. It's relatively light, EZ to affix to the wall (4 mirror brackets worked fine), and gives you a fine screen. It's whetted my appetite for a larger screen than the 97 in. wide sheet that I presently have (apparently it's manufactured as large as 10' wide. If I cant find one, though, I'll paint a sheet of regular MDF.)

Question: When you say Do-able is paintable, do you mean the MDF side or the laminated side?
I searched several threads but didnt find the answer. "Common sense" (duh!) would suggest you paint the MDF side but I wonder if the laminate offers a superior base for whatever reason(s).
In my case, I have a Panasonic 900 in a room with white walls (that I'm more than willing to paint). If I can get a better image painting the Do-able (whatever side), I'm eager to have at it. Any suggestions for a particular paint mix? I believe I'll PM Mississippi Man with the same question, as he suggested.
thanks, Ray
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post #740 of 918 Old 04-28-2006, 01:42 PM
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Thanks for the replys MM and CMRA.

MM - How is it going? I didn't know if you would remember me. I sold my Lumenlab DIY PJ and purchased an entry level Z1. I am very pleased with it for $500. However it does have some limitations. It is good to see that you are back at it again. I had read that you had some bad health for a while.

CMRA - I was intrigued by this thread because the testing was done with a Z1 and it seemed the mixture was designed specifically for the limitations of the Z1. I already have the tools needed to spray a screen and have played around with light fusion in the past with the help of MM and pb_maxx. I just didn't think my PJ had enough lumens to justify buying the large mirror required. One thing that really annoys me about the Z1 is the Screen Door Effect and black levels. With that being said in your opinion is the "cmra silver screen formula" the best DIY solution for the Z1?

Thanks,
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post #741 of 918 Old 04-28-2006, 01:55 PM
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Boomer,

The mix being described herein will accentuate SDE. Any Silver-heavy mix will.

IMO, you still need the "Fusion" princible to offset the gridlines and when /if you also use a slightly darker surface, that too will help mask the SDE as well, but now there are ways to overcome the attenuation any "grey" would offer up to the Z1, and rather increase the brightness without a " JD Hunt" inspired surface.

There are now some other alternatives not available to you 4 months ago.

PM me so as to keep this thread On Topic. That is to say, CMRA's new screen project. It will still be there for you to check out.

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post #742 of 918 Old 04-28-2006, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerBrian View Post

Thanks for the replys MM and CMRA.

CMRA - I was intrigued by this thread because the testing was done with a Z1 and it seemed the mixture was designed specifically for the limitations of the Z1. I already have the tools needed to spray a screen and have played around with light fusion in the past with the help of MM and pb_maxx. I just didn't think my PJ had enough lumens to justify buying the large mirror required. One thing that really annoys me about the Z1 is the Screen Door Effect and black levels. With that being said in your opinion is the "cmra silver screen formula" the best DIY solution for the Z1?

Thanks,
BoomerBrian

That's a hearty Yes and No. But, if eleminating SDE weighs in more, no.
You just can't have it both ways.
What you absolutely have to do with the Z1 is coax as much contrast out of it as possible. Boosting the contrast and gamma way UP and lowering the brightness accordingly should be your first move.
Down the road, after you upgrade to a higher res/minimum SDE Pj, silver becomes a better option. CRTers have known that for decades.
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post #743 of 918 Old 05-03-2006, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Hi, mrfixa,

Always great to welcome a new member!

Three schools exist on the subject. However subtile and not-so-subtile differences make the choice dependent on someone's viewing habits, viewing conditions, expectations, and budget. I'll not venture to suggest any "pure" surfaces such as Parkland, Black Out Cloth(BOC) , Formica and such, for there are Threads dedicated to those items. IMO, everyone can benefit from, and offer more when "coated" so for now, to me at least, they stand only to serve as the "Canvas" for what can become a work of art.

For Dark Room Viewing w/a 900 when no Contrast enhancement is desired:

A Reference white medium. UPW (simplest) or White MMud ( less simple...Mo Bedder.)

For Dark Room Viewing w/a 900 when Contrast enhancement IS desired:

UPW with Lamp Black added (simplest) or RS-MaxxMud ( less simple...MUCH Mo Bedder.)

Ambient Light? Preference demands I suggest Black Flame Lite w/Black Gold Top Coat. But "Good" results can come easier with a slightly muted Silver mix. That brings up the topic of this thread.

At this point, it's best to have you either focus on this thread's offerings, or go to the Thread Index, and choose any Thread that contains mention of the applications listed herein. As your peruse though a few, you'll pick up quickly on the differing opinions on what is "best" for a few as opposed to what is "acceptable" to many.

My suggestion? Pick the DIY application that is what you consider represents the best potential for your PJ and viewing lifestyle, DIY ability, and budget, then make it no more than 120" diagonal (...the panny's reasonable limits...) .

MM,
Thanks for taking my "call", I plan to have some ambient light in the viewing area, so would the blackflame be my target. If so, can I paint onto wall as my substrait. What would be my step by step procedure? Thanks.
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post #744 of 918 Old 05-03-2006, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Somebody here has never worked with silver. The 'better' silver screen doesn't just happen. You simply don't get 'lucky' on this one. You keep at it til the more perfect solution 'surfaces'. Pun intended.
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post #745 of 918 Old 05-04-2006, 08:19 AM
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looks interesting...

...as long as you tell me your 'lightning' in a bottle didn't come from that mississippi mudd jug. unless of course the 'lightning' hit you when you were punch drunk from drinking it's contents. hey, it worked for jimmy hendrix right?!
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post #746 of 918 Old 05-04-2006, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

looks interesting...

...as long as you tell me your 'lightning' in a bottle didn't come from that mississippi mudd jug. !

Done. Besides, MM absconded with the 'real' mudd back in February. Now some rich doctor has that hangin' on his wall.
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post #747 of 918 Old 05-04-2006, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

looks interesting...

...as long as you tell me your 'lightning' in a bottle didn't come from that mississippi mudd jug. unless of course the 'lightning' hit you when you were punch drunk from drinking it's contents. hey, it worked for jimmy hendrix right?!


It worked TOO good. He died.


Mr. Fixa,
Look for a PM this PM

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #748 of 918 Old 05-04-2006, 09:24 AM
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... and we will too if we don't quit 'inhaling' this stuff!

... of course in my case, i'm not sure what gonna get me first... the kidney's failing from the mountain dew or the 'fumes' from mixin' this stuff.
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post #749 of 918 Old 05-06-2006, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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What would you say about a silver screen that had 'zero' viewing cone, that is to say, uniform brightness on axis and off anywhere in the room?

What would you say about a silver screen that had 'zero' color shift? ( no bluing for example)

What would you say about a silver screen that enhanced the lower black levels while retaining the detail in said?

What would you say about a silver screen that exhibited NO warm or hot spotting whatsoever?

What would you say about a silver screen that exhibited no more SDE than a matte white screen?

What would you say about a silver screen that was equally at home with an LCD, DLP, or CRT pj?

What would you say about a silver screen that had more 'punch' than a 'light fusion'?

What would you say? "Can't be done". "Never happen". In your dreams". "Yeah, right".

Any takers? Wanna witness?
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post #750 of 918 Old 05-06-2006, 10:35 AM
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OK. I will bite. Spill the beans.

"220. 221. Whatever it takes."
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