A better grey screen - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 918 Old 09-18-2003, 06:23 PM
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Can't tell you which side is better. They are just different.
Which means I guess I won't try it.

You can't tell black levels looking at screen shots on an lcd computer monitor.

My only concern would be black levels and screen door.
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post #92 of 918 Old 09-18-2003, 06:29 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by BreakStuff
Screen Door was definately minimized, however screendoor wasn't never too much of a problem on the matte white IMHO.. I will calibrate the grey side to AVIA and take some more shots.. My dvd collection can be found here


Can you try some Gladiator screenshots when you calibrate to the grey side?
thanks
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post #93 of 918 Old 09-18-2003, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Breakstuff,

Very nice. How did you achieve 1:1 pixel mapping? PowerStrip? An updated driver for your ATI 9000?
Now for the goods. Currently I have My Panny S55 playing DVDs on my Z1. It's prog scan component.
For Gladiator try these settings on your Z1. ( Service menu setttings set at default, by the way)

Cont=49
Bright=28
Color=40
Tint=32
Red=31
Green=28
Blue=36
Sharp=8
Gamma=14
off
on

Z1 set at 480p
Panny in cinema 2 mode

They also work favorably for Men in Black II.

Please remember my DVD source is a stand alone DVD player. Will these settings work favorably with HTPC via RGB? Give 'em a try.
My experience favors stand alone players for film based transfers and HTPC for video transfers like Monsters Inc. and Toy Story.

Also, your screen shots look especially fine. My efforts tend to produce stills that are too contrasty and unsuitable for comparitive purposes. Would you elaborate on your camera and settings so that others may also post their results. TIA
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post #94 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 02:12 AM
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I don't know whether it is my monitor or something else, but for me Ultra-white screen looks as a clear winner in all but one screenshot (the one with screendoor).
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post #95 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Stasulos
I don't know whether it is my monitor or something else, but for me Ultra-white screen looks as a clear winner in all but one screenshot (the one with screendoor).

What did you expect? He has his projector set up for that. When he adjusts for the grey the white screen will look the lessor. Any surface change demands adjusting for it. The Z1, in particular, produces a rather marginal image out of the box but downright gorgeous when optimized. You wouldn't believe to image it produced last night with HBO-HDTV. Utterly smoked ANY plasma or RPTV I've seen.
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post #96 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 09:35 AM
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Well I painted my 6' wide screen with the Misty Evening yesterday and my initial run in was good but after coming back here and seeing the above comparo I quickly questioned myself.
Honestly my opinion is of little use to you guys because I have not had my projector long enough to be experimenting with screens yet but I'll give it to you anyways.

I have had my DIY screen for several years and it has was coated with several coats of primer and them several coats of Behr Ultra white in Eggshell just like the guy above has.
The screen has been out of commision for around a year because my last XGA LCD unit failed and I could not afford another at the time, it needed some touch up anyways so it was an easy decision to paint it with the experimental color.

I put around 6-8 hours on the X1 and the Behr Ultra white eggshell and I have around 3-4 hours on the Misty Evening. I painted the Misty Evening directly over the eggshell white because the white serves as a fine primer.

The first DVD I popped in after the paint dried was Gladiator since this film has a plethora of dark yet beautiful scenes...it seemed richer and more detailed and this was with using the projectors "Theater" preset.

This happened before I saw the above comparo...after going back and watching some other various material including some Direct TV I then felt
like I wanted the Ultra White punch back BUT I kept on watching and made a few minor adjustments and kept a careful eye on the colors and whites and they seemed extrememly natural and quite punchy.
The only way I can be sure is to paint half of my screen in the Ultra Pure white again.
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post #97 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 09:58 AM
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Looking at that first pic with just the screen colors, that Misty Evening is quite dark, darker than the Valspar gray I used. Re-calibration is a must. From the Misty screen shots, things look a little too blue. My 200u does not offer me the option to adjust individual RGB color controls using the component inputs so I'd be unable to back off on the blue color.

I'd love to see some re-calibrated shots. So far, I still prefer my Valspar screen color as that blue tint is not there.

Thanks for all your effort Breakstuff!


Peace Out~

Sometimes you reach what's real by making believe.
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post #98 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input. I have been so curious how DLP projectors faired with Misty Evening. Does the paint help mask the SDE with DLP the way it does with LCD? Are the blacks enhanced? Do you see any more shadow detail in the dark regions? Can you now project a bigger image? Does it do anything for the so called 'rainbows'? TIA
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post #99 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 01:55 PM
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I am going to be posting some screenshots with my X1 on the Misty Evening screen, I dont feel like painting part of the screen white again plus I dont want to buy any paint unless I decided to paint over the Misty Evening.
How about if I go out and buy a piece of shiny poster board to tape to the screen? Any other ideas to make a decent comparison?
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post #100 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 01:56 PM
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Took some shots at your settings CMRA and I must say that there has to be a dramatic difference between your setup and mine.On my setup the image was blue and bright and just plain annoying, I am certain your image is much more prettier and doesn't resemble my image..




I hate to say it but I am much more pleased with the matte white side than the Misty Evening. My screening wall used to be a paint color called "Behr Sparrow", and that Sparrow grey closely resembles the Misty Evening. I pretty much knew what to expect.. I'm sure the Misty would improve with calibration,but would still lack the bright,punchy colors that I prefer... but again, everyones setup is different so results may vary..

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post #101 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 01:58 PM
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My Misty Evening was mixed with Lamp Black and Thalo Green and 5, 1 repectively. Are your guy's mix the same as mine?
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post #102 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 02:00 PM
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I agree that the Misty Evening in the picture a few posts up is a little on the dark side, mine was the same way when i first painted it on my screen. I thought that this couldn't be right. After a couple of days though it lightened up and now appears a light gray with the slightest hint of blue.

I have not watched anything on it now since last Saturday night. I just got a new dvd player so i am going to put it through its paces this weekend
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post #103 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 02:02 PM
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Oh and I almost forgot , I used Glidden exterior Satin which is more glossy then interior eggshell but less glossy than interior Satin.
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post #104 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by James W. Johnson

How about if I go out and buy a piece of shiny poster board to tape to the screen? Any other ideas to make a decent comparison?

Shiny = "hot spots". Since your'e going through the trouble, pick up a sheet of white matte fiber board also known as Do-Able at your local Home Depot. It's cheap, easy to work with, does not hot spot, and makes a great white screen. You'll find it next to the pegboards.
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post #105 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Just for comparison I'm going to sample 'Gladiator' on my HTPC. I'll share my findings.
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post #106 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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THIS EXPLAINS ALOT.

Having an HTPC equipped with an ATI 9000 and Power Player DVDxp with those settings did indeed provide a rather deplorable viewing experience. However, I did work with it awhile and got a much better image. But it was never quite satisfactory.
Next I tried WinDVD 4.0 with a Zoomplayer overlay for color control. Much better. In fact I was able to get the image very close to the Panny S55's. In both cases I had to cut the sharpness to 'zero' or the SDE became objectionable. I'm glad I underwent this exercise because I was never able to adjust my HTPC to this level of satisfaction before on film based material.
I conclude, after you get your projector, after you match your screen, you still have to overcome the associated equipment hurdle. The three simply are inseperable.
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post #107 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 06:15 PM
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Well CMRA, When you were away playing with your HTPC, I thought I would try something new for a change..Today I visited my local HD store and purchased some more paint, I bought some aluminum paint,glaze coating, and mixed it with some leftover Behr Ultra Pure White (40/40/20 Just like that other thread specify's )... Applied it on a peice of Lexan cause thats all I had and wasn't ready to paint my walls silver yet.. Hung up the lexan on my screen and took some more pictures..This is what I got...













To make a long story short, I'm gonna keep my wall Behr Ultra Pure white,I'm quite happy with it..I'm gonna take that aluminum paint I mixed and paint the wheel covers on my car,and then I'm gonna sit back and enjoy my HT along with my shiny wheelcovers!

This is what I once mentioned about someone considering the HTPC route..I think the same applies to alot of people here trying to find success with different color/material combinations for a DIY screen..

"Sure HTPC(DIY Screens) has it advantages.. but its a long and frustrating road to achieve what may or may not be a better picture quality to the average user.. I choose the HTPC(DIY Screen) route because I love to tinker and get the most out what I have.. Is the effort involved worth the results?.. to me, yes.. to other average users?, probably not..

Kinda reminds me of the days I used to spend overclocking computers..

I could increase bus speed, voltages, install RAID setups, cooling, tweaking video cards and the end result would be a 2% gain here,4% gain there, another 1% gain somewhere else.. Was it all worth it?.. prolly not, I don't O/C pc's anymore cause I don't need the hassle involved... All in all, it wouldn't be a significant difference, but there would be an improvement..

Same is true with HTPC (and DIY screens)..

If the image looks good now, then let it be.."

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post #108 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe you have made a wonderful and beneficial contribution to the members of this forum. I for one am pleased with your results. After your postings I'm inclined to rehang my white matte screen if only to see how it fairs with my new HTPC adjustments.
In my further testing I did notice a certain graininess to DVDs played through my HDTV setup that was not noticible with the Panny. Perhaps this is a limitation of a software decoder. It was quite good otherwise with my new adjustments.
I am still curious how you got those screen shots. My always come out more contrasty than what appears on my screen. Perhaps you can share this knowledge too?
For the time being, Misty Evening works for me the way Behr Ultra white works for you. And, that, I believe is exactly the way it should be. There are no perfect solutions and there must always be room for individual preferences.
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post #109 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 08:48 PM
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Thanks for the good words CMRA,

Its the people like you that appreciate the effort that makes it worthwhile..

As for the screenshots, nothing fancy just a Olympus D-490Z digital camera @ the lowest setting, tripod mounted and re-sized w/ Photoshop.. plain and simple..

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post #110 of 918 Old 09-19-2003, 09:06 PM
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Heres an interesting set of pics..

Shot #1 is the white/misty screen at my settings..

Shot #2 is the same with CMRA's settings..



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post #111 of 918 Old 09-20-2003, 07:24 AM
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Breakstuff, those are incredibly good pictures, how did you do it?

And let me thank you as well, I appreciate the pics alot..i'll probably
end up going back to Behr Ultra White as well. Your white screen certainly looks excellent, I too would leave it white. BTW is your Behr Ultra White a flat or eggshell or?
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post #112 of 918 Old 09-20-2003, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I have had a chance to rework 'Gladiator' through my HTPC. This image is close to my Panny S55.
Setup: HTPC, ATI Radeon 9000 Pro, WinDVD 4.0, Zoomplayer Color Overlay, 'Misty Evening' screen.

Z1 settings:

Cont=50
Brite=23
Red=28
Green=28
Blue=31
Sharp=0
Gamma=13

Zoomplayer Overlay settings:

Brite=737.5
Cont=12104.1
Gamma=321.3
Hue=76.92
Saturation=13405.6

The Zoomplayer overlay really helps alot. It is freely available via an internet download. It's still not the pristine image I get with my Panny on film based DVDs but is close enough color wise.
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post #113 of 918 Old 09-20-2003, 08:30 PM
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Painting a screen will save me some money to spend on a better DVD player. I went to Home Depot today (Central Florida) and the do not have the paint card (#NC 50) on display. They can (as well as any Home Depot) mix the paint from the product ID. The ID for Misty Evening from the Glidden website is 30BG 64/036. Make sure you specify the finish you want, CMRA recommends flat.

I am going to be painting the 6x7' area between built in book shelves and them "frame" it out with balck paint after the projector is in the correct place.

Man I can't wait.

Jim
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post #114 of 918 Old 09-20-2003, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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...to the forum. I've done alot of testing with Misty Evening over the past few weeks. I can't describe in words how pleased I am with the results. However, you have to work with it. Don't expect to run your pj with factory default settings and get great results. Even a well calibrated pj, that is one set up for another surface, won't do the job either. BUT, once you get your pj optimized, your are in for a real treat. Best wishes.
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post #115 of 918 Old 09-21-2003, 12:31 AM
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I know CMRA found the particular blue/gray shade of "Misty Evening" good for minimizing SDE.

Given I have been experimenting with a 107" wide image, and using my basement HT wall for that (moving from my DaLite Matte 1 gain 96" wide screen) I thought I'd try a neutral gray for my BenQ 8700 DLP. Screen door is not an issue for me, but contrast or black level is, despite the rated 1800:1 or so its been actually in the Secrets of Home Theater review. It's rated lumens is 1000 though it was actually rated at 597 in the review - like most other HD2s when calibrated the actual lumen count drops.

So, at HD today I had some Behr "Sterling" (780E-3) mixed using Ultra white flat enamel. I'd estimate the mixture as about 10-12% gray, I figured I could more easily darken the shade if I had to. By the way there's a shade darker choice called "Silver Screen" that I was tempted to use just based on the name, but I'd guess it's closer to maybe 14% gray.

The results are very good, so far, although I have yet to put on the second coat and roller marks were just visible after three hours of drying (I'm going to have to bone up a bit on my roller technique, and perhaps flat enamel does not spread as well as some other types of paint).

I don't see a meaningful loss in brightness or dingy appearance at all to white/brights. Just as important, blacks are incrementally improved, colors are nicely saturated, and what was really surprizing to me was the improvement in the shadow detail and picture depth, or "3D" if you will. I can't make out any color tilt with the neutral gray - the BenQ is really accurate in its color balance. My brightness settings on the pj are up a couple of notches from their previously very low (and too low with some black crushing at times) settings to compensate for the gray and I think this actually helps out by getting out of the black crushing range in the electronics.

I was kind of skeptical about the whole gray screen thing, but this has me convinced. Now it's on to learning more about good roller technique for that second coat in the morning.

Thanks to all for the posts and info.
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post #116 of 918 Old 09-21-2003, 09:15 AM
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I painted my screen Behr Ultra white again yesterday and watched
'Solaris', I immediately felt like I was missing something....Am I already missing the Misty Evening screen? I saw 'Anger Management' the previous night on the Misty Evening screen and throughout the film the colors and
whites were bold and beautiful, I never felt like they were subdued at all and the blacks were excellent!
I did not paint half of my screen like I had planned because I was concerned that I would have trouble getting it uniform again if I did this. Today I am going to paint a piece of cardboard in the Misty Evening and tape it to the white screen...hopfully its enough to demermine which screen I prefer.
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post #117 of 918 Old 09-21-2003, 10:05 AM
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I would love to take some comparison pics but I cannot get any decent pics out of my Sony 3.0 Megapixel camera...can comebody tell me how to take screenshot pics? Its entirely possible that my camera is just not good enough for the task.
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post #118 of 918 Old 09-21-2003, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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...I rehung my white matte screen. Yes, when I adjusted my PJ it looked very good. But, I too, noticed something missing. The blacks were not as deep for starters. Sometimes the colors (Moulin Rouge) were just too saturated- over the top if you will. Also on brite scenes ( Snow in Ice Age ) the whites became overpowering to the point of washing out the scene. I suspect it was reflected light falling back on to the screen. Of course, the SDE became more noticible.
Yeah, the grey so far remains my screen champion.
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post #119 of 918 Old 09-22-2003, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks as though screenshots must be resized to 640x640 or less to post. I'm working on it. My earlier attempt was denied. Please stand by.
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post #120 of 918 Old 09-22-2003, 09:06 AM
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James,

For screenshots:

Tripod is a must
No flash
Camera set to automatic exposure usually works.

Chris Whitworth
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