Misty Evening + Silver "one-coat" solution - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are some of the pics from my recent labor to improve on the already very good Misty Evening paint (introduced by CMRA). FYI: I currently use a DIY 94" screen painted Misty Evening and it is a vast improvement over the older Dalite DaMat 1.1 screen (78").

My efforts have been to help further improve the blacks without hurting the whites - sorta like the ddog solution of earlier this year. And because I'm not a big painting guy, I wanted something that was doable by rolling instead of spraying. I tried a few variations of ddog, but the rolling is a severe limiting factor when attempting this solution (as other have pointed out in numerous threads).

The ddog improved the brightness enough that I was intrigued, but - in MY application - the blacks weren't significantly improved to be worth the effort. You can see some of those screenshots in Joe P's Ddog vs ME thread. However, after discussions with some other folks here, I decided to try an "overcoat" or topcoat of the ddog over the Misty Evening (instead of the Behr UPW).

Those results were also disappointing because of the rolling (again) but also in that they didn't seem to improve on much, but introduced a pretty limiting viewing cone. NEXT! Further discussions led a few of us to propose a "one-coat" solution using ME and the components of the ddog formula.

And here we are. I tried a few different formulations, but the earliest weren't sufficient to even take screenshots. Next (and currently) I tried to up the amount of glaze and clear flat base for an ultimate formulation of:
33% Faux glaze
32% clear flat base
20% Misty Evening
15% Silver metallic

I painted that over one of the earlier attempts (that gave not-too-different-results from plain ME). I felt this was worth the effort of posting screenshots and some in-depth analysis. I hope you agree.

Pic #1: Daylight shot of ME on left and One-coat formulation on the right.
LL

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post #2 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Moving on to actual movies, I've chosen several to illustrate the improvement in whites with no deterioration in black levels. Not exactly what I was shooting for, but wait till you see how the whites improve. And imprtantly, there is very little viewing cone introduced using this one-coat formula.

One IMPORTANT note: these shots are calibrated for the one-coat panel, not the ME. The difference in settings on my pj was minor, but still present. I took a few shots to see if I could show a difference, but the results were insignificant. So I preface these pics with this remark: the ME side (left) is down in white by about 2 levels for my TW100 (using the Avia disc). Not dramatically different, but different nonetheless. And the black level was not changed. Same with the color settings.

So pic 2: toward the beginning of Gladiator. You can see the difference in the blue sky which appear slightly darker - and not exclusively due to the lower white level. More details later in some white scenes.
LL

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post #3 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Another one from Gladiator showing skin tones.
LL

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post #4 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I am gladiator. Note the nearly invisible line and the lack of difference in blacks on either side. Whites improve.
LL

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post #5 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Take that! Another more white sky shot. Really where it's most evident is in sky and white shots. Can't wait to see a hockey game in HD.
LL

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post #6 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Enough of the Gladiator? How about one more. This is similar to one CMRA posted last night using his Olympic 2100 camera. I forgot to mention that I'm using a Fujifilm 2600 (2.0 Mp).

This is another with skintones, but more shadowy.
LL

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post #7 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Moving on to some animation: Toy Story 2 (one of my demo favorites that we showed to a bunch of friends last night).

First is a shot of the Pixar opening. Again shows the brightness difference in the blue field.
LL

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post #8 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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More Toy Story 2.

Brightness difference in an animated dusk sky. Again, notice that the blacks do not suffer while brightness improves.
LL

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post #9 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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One more showing the white difference. This is similar to another shot I posted in the Ddog vs. ME thread. That shot showed improved blacks while this one shows much improved whites. I'm trying to get both in one shot.

And the dream lives on...
LL

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post #10 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 10:35 AM
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Great job! Looks very promising.

How are you measuring out your paint that you can say "33%", "32%", etc? What would you say your margin of error is (1%, 2%, etc)?
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post #11 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 11:35 AM
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scoob5555:
I know screen shots are tough to really show the images but from what I can see, your formula is better (and dare I say significantly) than plain ME.

I found your images not only brighter but also the colors (especially the dusk sky) were warmer. What about sheen? Is it shiny with hot spots? Does it roll on easily? Do you use a foam roller?

What projector do you have?
Thanks.

John
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post #12 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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First off, my measurements are very rough and probably closer to +-5% since I'm really doing it by eye and making a batch at a time. When I need to change the formula, I generally mix in the tray and guestimate the actual percentages. I've gotten better at it (with all this practice), so these are probably close enough since it's mixing a gray with silver - not the white and silver where even 5% difference means a significantly difference result.

Also failed to mention that there is no sheen/shimmer/hot-spotting.

It rolls much easier, though you still have to watch out not to over-work it too long. I got few of the ddog roller problems using my foam roller, and it was much easier to correct when it happened.

Overall, it's almost as easy as ME to apply, though application takes a bit longer to mix and apply. Based on my experience thus far, this one looks the best without adding a huge amount of effort to the basic ME.

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post #13 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 05:38 PM
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What's the basecoat beneath this formula?

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post #14 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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This time around it was one of the previous overcoat attempts: approx 40% ME, 30% SM, 15% Clear flat base, 15% faux glaze

I will attempt to paint the other panel straight ME and then reproduce my one-coat formula on top. Kinda hard to call it a one-coat solution if there are 2 coats, but you get the idea.

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post #15 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 06:17 PM
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I hate to be the one to stomp on your balloon, but I plainly see Screen Door in all your 'lightened' photos. Both increasing reflectability AND having a screen shade lighter than the LCD pixel grids invites trouble (SDE) when PJs have the resolution and sharpness characteristics they posses these days. I'm sure however that the mix would perform wonderfully with any decent DLP unit, or LCDs with Micro Lens Display.

Good. Very Good. But not quite up to dethroning ME for Best All Around."

My turn soon!

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post #16 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 06:21 PM
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I love it...that blue tint is gone and somehow you've improved the contrast as well as the clarity. looks like a real winner!

You must be the change you wish to see in the world.

- Mahatma Gandhi
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post #17 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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MM-
You give my camera way too much credit. I noticed what you call the screendoor in several of my (close to 100) shots - but in reality it was a weird moire effect that somehow was caught in the interaction between the screen and my camera. I pitched many of the shots because of this. I will testify that the SDE is nearly invisible in the real-world viewing environment - and is no different from the ME.

Look at OC-ts6 and tell me there's SDE. Not there - simply a strange camera effect. Probably because it's only 2.0 Mp, but who knows...

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post #18 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 11:48 PM
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Once again, at first blush, I was taken back. However, I really can't determine how much your mix enhances ME from your screen shots. For illustration, please compare these 'same scene' screen shots. My ME just doesn't look like your ME. Could there be that much difference between cameras?
Your screen shot first:
LL
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post #19 of 853 Old 11-02-2003, 11:57 PM
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Ok, here's my screen shot. Scoob, what can you make of this? How close are your screen shots to what you see on your screen? Your shots make ME look like dirty dingy grey? Please compare side by side and respond.
LL
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post #20 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 12:04 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by scoob5555
MM-
You give my camera way too much credit. I noticed what you call the screendoor in several of my (close to 100) shots - but in reality it was a weird moire effect that somehow was caught in the interaction between the screen and my camera. I will testify that the SDE is nearly invisible in the real-world viewing environment - and is no different from the ME.]



Moire is caused by the interaction of the cameras resolution limitations, and THE EXISITANCE of Horizontal and/or Vertical lines. Ifin' dey aint dere, de Morie woodnst bee nyther. But read on....there is still hope.

QUOTE]Originally posted by scoob5555
Look at OC-ts6 and tell me there's SDE. Not there - simply a strange camera effect. Probably because it's only 2.0 Mp, but who knows...
[/quote]

Specifically, the Fuji 2600 is NOT a true 2.0 Megpixel camera, (..technology that's almost 4 yrs old) but one that uses a special CCD that interpolates the actual pixels captured to increase sharpness. Over sharpen any image and some degree of moire what you get. You can reduce this effect by reducing your camera's resolution to 1/2, or even down to 640x480 to get down out of the Interpolation parameters. But really, to maintain the credibility of your SSs, you MUST go out and borrow a better Digital Camera.

So........., I'll grant you that much leeway, because the reality is that your mix does indeed improve on ME's performance. But why not try a almost pure Silver Metallic Glaze (4/5ths SMG - 1/5th Ultra pure white -Flat) then 2 thin topcoats of a reverse mixture? Keep the formula simple enough and gain both the benifits of SMG and UPW-F Using ME as a base is pointless. The rest of your mix (Glaze and Silver ) negates ANY effect ME might offer.

If you want to wait, I'll have no fewer than 3 screens done before this Wenesday along those lines. Other wise, "Keep on Rollin', Keep on Rollin', Roll with the Changes."

PS. Simplify matters by purchasing Silver Metallic Glaze pre mixed in the 'Depot's Faux paint section. Cut that mixture from there.

Where a side shot showing the degree of viewing angle available. I've seen no one match my results as of yet, and no one hase noted any discrepencies of any type in my SSs excepting the DLPs tendency to be less sharp at delivering an image. I've found that strange. Even with CMRA's understandable reluctance to dilute his own discovery's fame, I'd think the rest of you all would plainly see the difference. No Blueing, true colors and skin tones, and 170 degree veiwing cone.

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post #21 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 12:10 AM
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Scoob555,

See? CMRA fearlessly comes forward to the lines of battle. and his gun (statement) has a heavy load of validity. BIG difference in image brightness, and you can bet it IS because of the camera. If not, ya'll better chuck that mix.

Ooops. There IS that darn 'ol blueing in the brighter image though, CMRA, but as I've said before, it's really not noticable unless you really look past the brightness of the image, or in worst case secnairios of White on White detail.

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post #22 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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CMRA-
I think the difference may be the camera mainly, but also the pj. Haven't seen direct comparisons between the Z1 and the TW100 (using the same camera, etc) but I dare say that camera makes most of the difference.

In the future I'll try to lower the resolution of the pics instead of shrinking the high res pics to fit on this site. I've never directly compared the pics to the actual, but I've always had the impression (after using for about 2 years) that the images are nice but stark somehow. Colors are not especially vivid, but unusually washed out. I'm just used to the look of the pics.

Again, these images were not to deride ME in anyway. I only wanted to show the potential enhancements of my formulation over the basic ME. I think the changes are good and worthwhile - especially considering the minimal effort over and above the standard ME application.

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post #23 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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MM-
I can wait for awhile. I'm redoing this formulation on top of a standard ME base this week, but I'd like to try one panel of your mix to compare those. As I mentioned, I'd still like to improve the blacks more.

I will try some shots at lower res to see if I can get rid of the moire effects (never had the issue previously as far as I remember).

For the viewing cone, the shift is very gradual and not especially upseting. In our room, it's not an issue unless your walking to your seat or standing next to the screen. In all seating positions, there is no shift.

Look forward to seeingsome good shots from your new screens. Use a tripod!

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post #24 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 07:43 AM
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Scoob, I think you're onto something, keep up the good work! I am REALLY glad you are posting split screens, as I think that should provide a much more objective means for comparison than trying to derive an opinion from full screenshots.

Eric.

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post #25 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 11:13 AM
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MississippiMan,
Can you refresh our memories of what your formula is? I'm sure it's back in these threads somewhere but a repost would be helpful. I also agree that ME seems a bit too blue.

Also, as I juste posted in another thread. The HDs in Connecticut no longer carry Metallic SIlver. I imagine other HDs will follow suit. Is there an alternative? Lowes carriers a metallic silver paint in their faux section but I don't know if it is similar to the Behr product.

John
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post #26 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 11:33 AM
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The mix is variable based on PJ's luminosity. type, and any ambient lighting considerations.

Could wind up anything from a 'greyish' off white, to light grey, to such a dark grey you'd think it wouldn't work.

Just relate the requested facts and I'll respond accordingly.

..but, the Base is always 4/5th SMG, and 1/5th Ultra Pure White -Flat.

Any Silver Metallic Glaze will do, it doesn't have to be Beir. Ditto with the UPW -F Everyone is just used to the convienence of shopping at HD. But hit any Sherwin Williams and I betch they'll have it!

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post #27 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 01:18 PM
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MM,

Sorry to barge in - but your offer intrigued me. I just dived into a home theatre concept in my basement refinishing project. Bought a used PJ. It's a Sharp XG-E1200U. Just now plotting the screen and I am very sure I will try a DIY one. I am pretty sold on ME right now (from this and other threads) on a fiber board surface, but I am recognizing that my old PJ is no Z1 and I will be dealing with a little less light and contrast definition. That said, I'd sure like to hear an opinion that may maximize what I have. ANy thoughts?

I'll open this to anyone with a good opinion. Don't mind trying a few (probably will try ME as well).

Vas

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post #28 of 853 Old 11-03-2003, 02:03 PM
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MM-
I have a Sharp DT200 Theago DLP projector. It has 600 lumens and a contrast ratio of 1200:1.

John

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post #29 of 853 Old 11-04-2003, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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On a whim, last night I painted one of my panels with an equal parts mix of 25% of glaze, clear flat base, ME, and SM. It was reminiscent of ddog - it rolled poorly.

Tonight I viewed it against my ME screen and, amazingly, there was almost no discernable difference between the two! The color of the test panel was similar to the ddog colr - and quite different from ME. But the differences were negligible.

Just goes to show how good Misty Evening really is all by itself.

Tonight I was able to paint my ME panel with my formula (more accurate % mix this time). Give it a day or two to cure and I'll compare again. Stay tuned.

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post #30 of 853 Old 11-04-2003, 07:07 PM
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What made you come up with that mixture? Too bad you didn't try my suggestion. You could have tried both the base, then the Base / Overcoat together. All you did was to polute / dilute ME with an unevenly balanced mixture of vairiables.

If you do ever use a much stronger mix of MSG, (don't use glaze mixed in seperatly!) be sure to lightly wet sand the finish.

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