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post #271 of 452 Old 10-03-2005, 09:18 AM
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So after much trolling I finally decided to make a go at the LFMM screen. I went with the 1:1:1 mixture (1/96th oxide omitted). 3 coats applied to a 8' diagonal, widescreen ratio mirror.

if you used 1:1:1 with nothing else added to the mix... the only thing you've done is to take UPW and give it a very small amount of transparency. without the silver metallics you'll do little to improve true blacks and deep rich colors. omitting the oxide as well... will not help improve your flesh tones, light browns, deep reds, maroons, etc.

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I used a 1/4 NAP brush to apply very thin coats of MM over the mirror. The first two coats were very thin (leaving a darkish tint from the mirror underneath) while the last coat was applied (slightly thicker) until I could see the blackish reflection of the mirror no more.

All has dried but my initial results are far from what I expected. In effect, the image looks no different than slightly off-white wall I was projecting to before. In the light, the MM is clearly whiter than the wall but as you can see in the picture there is almost no difference.

What did I do wrong? I see everyone raving about thier picture quality and I want to join in. Can someone please shed some light?

the first thing i noticed is you rolled the mix. i can't stress enough how important it is that in order to achieve the results people rave about... you will need a good quality sprayer followed by a quality paint job. rolling just will not get it done.

with rolling, you will get about 2 to 3 times more paint on the surface, creating an opaque topcoat and negating everything that the mirror can do for you. also, if you used the 24oz of distilled water that was required... the paint should have been so slippery and wet... that you roller would have slid across the mirror and been extremely hard to roll.

there is a new MMud mix on it's way... soon to be revealed... that has a lot more transparency than ever before. but, it's also MORE important that in order to achieve optimum results... it MUST be sprayed... due to the ingredients involved.
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post #272 of 452 Old 10-03-2005, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

if you used 1:1:1 with nothing else added to the mix... the only thing you've done is to take UPW and give it a very small amount of transparency. without the silver metallics you'll do little to improve true blacks and deep rich colors. omitting the oxide as well... will not help improve your flesh tones, light browns, deep reds, maroons, etc.

the first thing i noticed is you rolled the mix. i can't stress enough how important it is that in order to achieve the results people rave about... you will need a good quality sprayer followed by a quality paint job. rolling just will not get it done.

with rolling, you will get about 2 to 3 times more paint on the surface, creating an opaque topcoat and negating everything that the mirror can do for you. also, if you used the 24oz of distilled water that was required... the paint should have been so slippery and wet... that you roller would have slid across the mirror and been extremely hard to roll.

I've read the whole thread and from what Missisippi has said, he still rolls the paint and uses the 1:1:1 mixture. He's also commented that the 1/96th oxide is for use on LCD projectors and DLP correction is not needed. From what I understood, the silver metallic is omitted when painting on a mirror ( as they are both intended to do the same thing. I also forgot to mention I used Flowtrol instead of water.

I read the whole thread a few times... did I miss something?
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post #273 of 452 Old 10-03-2005, 11:55 AM
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hmmm. when i comes to LF screens... i've never heard of MMan using a roller. he strongly advocates spraying especially when i comes to a LF screen. he has however recommended to people you insist on rolling a non-LF screen or spraying a MM/SE (non-LF)... that it's just as easy to 'roll' the high gloss basecoat (but ONLY the basecoat)... and then spraying on MM topcoat.

yes, MMan still uses a 1:1:1 mixture as a starting base. he then adds to that... based upon the application. in my opinion the 1/96th oxide is not needed... unless... you add the 2oz. of silver metallic to the mix.

with respect to using floetrol instead of water... it's ok to add floetrol, but you likely didn't use 24 oz of floetrol. by itself, the base 1:1:1 mix, is very thick... almost vanilla pudding thick... that's why SO much distilled water is used to thin it out. 4 to 6 oz. of floetrol just won't do if you're looking to get 3 thin layers spread.

at this point, i'd suggest you hang on for a day or two... because MM will be revealing his new MMud varient. you'll likely need to sand your current screen, and you won't get the LF effect anymore, but the new mix by itself (without LF) stands as a truely fine one-step screen solution.
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post #274 of 452 Old 10-05-2005, 10:40 PM
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Mississippi,
First I want to thank you for taking the time to do this. I need to be able to remove my screen periodically so I would like to try your process on a blackout cloth screen. Should I approach this the same way as painting a wall? Is sanding the blackout cloth doable? Since the cloth has a texture to it already how can i Get that perfect smooth effect? Any help would be appreciated
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post #275 of 452 Old 10-05-2005, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by clskinsfan View Post

Mississippi,
First I want to thank you for taking the time to do this. I need to be able to remove my screen periodically so I would like to try your process on a blackout cloth screen. Should I approach this the same way as painting a wall? Is sanding the blackout cloth doable? Since the cloth has a texture to it already how can i Get that perfect smooth effect? Any help would be appreciated

Glad I'm still up to respond. (I think? Yawn.....*)

Use the smooth side to receive the paint.

Spray if at all possible. That way, 'perfect smooth' is infinitely easier to acheive.

Sanding painted BO Cloth is almost impossible unless it is backed by a hard surface. Rolling on the same is almost as hard, and should also be done with backing.

before we go further, state you desired size, PJ option, and application preference.

Input. I NEED INPUT! (No# 5 is Alive!)

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post #276 of 452 Old 10-06-2005, 09:00 AM
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I am going with 100" 16/9 diagonal screen. I have my pj picks down to either an Optoma H77 or Screenplay 7205. The PJ is going to pretty much break my budget which is why i want to DIY the screen. PJ will be ceiling mounted from 14 feet. the system will be used for movies dvd's and hd football on sundays. Once again thanks for taking the time.
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post #277 of 452 Old 10-06-2005, 01:55 PM
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forgot to tell you i will have total light control on the room
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post #278 of 452 Old 10-07-2005, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clskinsfan View Post

forgot to tell you i will have total light control on the room

Well, that makes it pretty easy.

First off, lose all idea of using Red Oxide in any variation of MMud as it is "Old News" and was originally intended to offeset Blue Push in LCD PJs that exhibited such to the point that correcting for it in the Color Menu only served to worsen other aspects of the image.

The Optima will seem more "dim" than the Screenplay, but to many, the "O" has better color rendition.

Also, the "O"s image is softer, and less defined. That does not meen "fuzzy" or indistinct, just "softer" at the edges of any distinct line.

At 100", though, both PJs should give you complete satisfaction, with the Optima holding sway as far as Contrast.

A 100" diagonal screen will be 49" x 87" BO Cloth comes in sizes large than than. I suggest that you purchase some 1" x 2" stips and screw through the BO cloth about 3" outside the perimeter of the desired screen area directly on the surface of something Flat so as to give yourself someing solid to roll against.

Garage wall?

Attach the top piece first, then the Botton with a slight stretch, then the sides.

Now, apply a light Coat of UPW Gloss onto the cloth. Do a second coat is neecessary, but do so LIGHTLY and using a low nap roller that has been expressed of excess paint by rolling it several times on the tray or a seprate board. This will help prevent roller marks, things that are hard to get rid of in the best of circunstances, but almost impossible to do on flexible cloth, even when it's stretched tightly.

Now you should use the newest MMud mix. RS-MMMax.

You'll find the ingrediants at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...66#post6295266

But leave out the Minwax, or reduce it's usage to 1/4 to 3/4 water.

The latter is a "guess" because I'm still ging to insist you do everything in your power to spray the cloth.

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post #279 of 452 Old 10-07-2005, 11:46 AM
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thanks for the help. I hope to have this done by the end of the month. going to order my PJ this weekend. I will post with results.
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post #280 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 09:03 AM
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Hopefully I can quickly get an answer to this question from Mississippi Man as I'm painting my screen tonight.

The question I have concerns the black level of my PJ, it's a Benq PB6200. The black level is already to high in my opinion and I'm hoping that the SM won't increase the black level, ie: make it whiter. I'm hoping that only the bright colors will make it to the SM layer and be enhanced and not the horrible blacks this PJ has?

Any speedy answer would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance.
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post #281 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstate View Post

Hopefully I can quickly get an answer to this question from Mississippi Man as I'm painting my screen tonight.

The question I have concerns the black level of my PJ, it's a Benq PB6200. The black level is already to high in my opinion and I'm hoping that the SM won't increase the black level, ie: make it whiter. I'm hoping that only the bright colors will make it to the SM layer and be enhanced and not the horrible blacks this PJ has?

dreamstate,

unfortunately MM is working a home theater show and will not be able to answer your question until tonight...

so i will answer it for him...

i've tested using the acer PD525 and it is VERY similiar to your benq6200... so yes i'm familiar with what you are dealing with... although i think you might be a little bit confused on the SM layer and what it is intended to do. essentially you have 'poor' black levels and you need for them to be a 'truer black' and not a 'shadowy grey'... i.e. no sense of detail.

if you are using a silver metallic basecoat... then it's job is two fold...
first it will give the entire color spectrum a slight amount of 'gain'.
and the second (which is what you are concerned about) is that it will make darker colors richer... and enhance your blacks... giving you 'truer blacks'.

having said that. the mississippi mudd mix has 'grown up' a little bit and the MM/SM you speak of is no longer the 'recommended' mix by myself or MM. please take a look at the RS-MMMaxx mix that i helped to develop and use that mix in it's place. you will get all-around better results both in full light control as well as added benefit in ambient light.

PM me if you have any questions where to get started. you likely already have most of the ingredients.
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post #282 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 01:09 PM
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Searched for the RSMMMax recipe and found no posts or links on the sticky. Can you point me in the right direction?
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post #283 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 01:37 PM
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In Post #278 above MM talks about a new link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...66#post6295266

Its in there.
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post #284 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstate View Post

Searched for the RSMMMax recipe and found no posts or links on the sticky. Can you point me in the right direction?

take a look at this post...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...266#post6295266

and then follow these instructions and you'll have the lastest Mud Mix...

The RS-MMMaxx is a revised, updated, and enhanced MMud Mix... and therefore uses many of the same ingredients.

Here's the EXACT mix you'll need and it makes about 3 1/4 quarts of paint.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1qt Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Exterior (HD)
12 oz. Behr Deep Base Flat Exterior (HD)
3 (8oz) bottles - Delta Ceramcoat Metallic Silver #02603 (Michaels)
1 (8oz) bottle - Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601 (Michaels)
16 oz. Minwax Polycrylic Satin Finish (HD)
16 oz. Distilled Water
------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes, there are a couple of minor changes... but they are for the better.

mix/and i mean shake for at least 2 to 3 minutes before spraying. using a 1.5mm nozzle spray this mix onto a 1/8'' sheet of plexi mirror in a 'frost prep' and then 2 coats of paint.

the 'frost prep' is an extremely fast and very light surface coat to prepare the plexi mirror for accepting a full coat. it should look like a very light frost on a window. then step back... and let it dry for about 10/15 minutes.

next do a standard but light spray 'covering' across the entire sheet. now step and take a look at it. fill in only the soft spots with a quick light feathering. and then let this coat dry for about 45min/hour.

next do standard covering across the entire sheet. step back again... there shouldn't be any soft spots now... but if there are... then again feather spray only the soft spots.

let it dry for at least a day before hanging up. it'll take a week or so before it's fully cured.

-------

if you are not using a light fusion screen and want use a gloss basecoat to maximize your gain, then follow the same steps as above.

-------

this mix can also be used a simple one step painting mix. use a basecoat, any basecoat, that's lightly sanded, smooth, and is an exceptable basecoat for latex to adhere to. then spray 3 to 4 coats with a drying time of an hour between each coat. let it dry for a day or two and your done. it'll get even better as the paint cures.

this mix will increase your ambient light viewing pleasure. it has no viewing cone to speak of and the sm, mirror, and urethane all help to achieve the positives.
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post #285 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

Here's the EXACT mix you'll need and it makes about 3 1/4 quarts of paint.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1qt Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Exterior (HD)
12 oz. Behr Deep Base Flat Exterior (HD)
3 (8oz) bottles - Delta Ceramcoat Metallic Silver #02603 (Michaels)
1 (8oz) bottle - Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601 (Michaels)
16 oz. Minwax Polycrylic Satin Finish (HD)
16 oz. Distilled Water
------------------------------------------------------------------------

pb_maxx,

Are you sure about the 3 bottles of Metallic Silver? I believe MM said that 4 bottle should be used. In his example, he used 3 but regretted it at the end and said it should have been done with 4 bottles instead. 32oz total, not 24oz.
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post #286 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHunt View Post

Are you sure about the 3 bottles of Metallic Silver? I believe MM said that 4 bottle should be used. In his example, he used 3 but regretted it at the end and said it should have been done with 4 bottles instead. 32oz total, not 24oz.

remember this is revised mix. mm was also using a little more than 1 1/4 quarts of UPW... whereas i'm only using 1 quart of UPW... so yes, i have accounted for the extra 8oz of SM that MM mentions.

i've revised the mix so it's easier for folks to buy and mix... and so that it will easily fit into an empty gallon container. not to mention... it'll cost about $25 less as well.
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post #287 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm playing hooky from the Show fer a short spell 'cause my Son is filling in.

Yes indeedy, had I it to do over, there would be 4 bottles of SM added.

And pb_Maxx, there is something to be said about using the new SM as a Basecoat for those who cannot acquire a mirror.

It is far easier a paint to work with, and I feel it just might not exhibit the "roller mark" tendency that the Behr did if indeed a Roller is being used. As for spraying, it promieses to be a Dream. Also, what with the lighter hue, and the more "radiant" silver gleam, I also feel that coverage with MMud will be a snap, rolled or sprayed. (...but please, all ya all spray, won'tcha?)

Otherwise, the RS-MaxxMmudd formula applied over a Gloss white should get anybody's Ya Ya 's out, especially with the 4 Bottles of SM.

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post #288 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

remember this is revised mix. mm was also using a little more than 1 1/4 quarts of UPW... whereas i'm only using 1 quart of UPW... so yes, i have accounted for the extra 8oz of SM that MM mentions.

i've revised the mix so it's easier for folks to buy and mix... and so that it will easily fit into an empty gallon container. not to mention... it'll cost about $25 less as well.


Well, it does remain to be seen if the change-up to not having a quart of the original MMud added is truely benefical. That I'm afraid will only be proven by a direct comparison.

It does make it simpler and more cost effective though, and I'm not one to stand against any of that fer sure.

Besides, pb_Maxx has a good feel for what's workable and what is not, and ny own direction I've taken w/LF at his suggestion certainly panned out nicely. So all I ncan say to that is "Give it a Go!"

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post #289 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 02:28 PM
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mm,

there you go again!?! shootin' me down.

with respect to a SM basecoat. we did discuss this a little on the other forum and you're right... and while we are looking for more positives. spray using the new SM as a basecoat. then give it a spray with a healthy coat of gloss polycrylic. let that dry. and then spray in the same fashion as you would a LF screen. the end result should knock your socks off.

also, i was explaining the 24oz of SM to 1 quart of UPW... would be very close in ratio to you having used 32oz of SM to 1 1/4 quarts of UPW that you used.
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post #290 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 02:40 PM
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I've never heard of Michaels here in Canada. Anyone in Canada know where to get the supplies listed?
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post #291 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 02:52 PM
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There are many Michaels in Calgary. Its a big Arts and Crafts Store. Look it up in the internet. Here is a list of the addresses in Calgary...

5588 Signal Hill Centre SW
(403) 246-3336

3160 27th St NE
(403) 250-9833

8180 11th St SE, Bay 400
(403) 640-1633

130 Country Village Rd NE, Ste 315
(403) 567-1600

130, 350R Shawville Blvd SE
(403) 256-3528
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post #292 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 04:41 PM
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Thanks so much for the info.

Is this mix supposed to be covering a mirror? I'm hoping it's not.
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post #293 of 452 Old 10-13-2005, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamstate View Post

Thanks so much for the info.

Is this mix supposed to be covering a mirror? I'm hoping it's not.

the mix was designed to be covering a mirror. however, if you take a look at this specific thread... you see that MM and I discussed other options for this mix... options other than LF... that will yield some very good results as well.
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post #294 of 452 Old 10-14-2005, 08:50 AM
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Ok so, after looking through the thread I'm a little confused about exact measurements. I don't really need gain, a "little" would be nice. I have total light control. Ambient light rejection is a bonus as well as black level improvement.

I was pretty much set to apply the HD silver metallic and white/pearlescent top coats. The wall without primer is sanded and waiting.

Here's my situation.
I cannot spray, period. It sux, but that's it. I'll be rolling on painted/sanded drywall.

So cost not beng a problem, what is the specific ingredient list and instruction recommendation for a roll on screen? Basecoat of silver or whatever included as well.

Thanks so much guy's.
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post #295 of 452 Old 10-14-2005, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hang on and I or pb_Maxx will walk you through a "roller-able" application that will dubya pleasure.

I gotta get back into the Show until 7pm

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post #296 of 452 Old 10-14-2005, 09:38 AM
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dreamstate,

the qualities in MM's mix are slightly different mostly because MM's production needs are different from ours. He needs to be able to take a 'base mix' which he makes in large quantities and alter/taylor it to the specific application he's working on.

here's the mix just so that there is no confusion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1qt Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Exterior (HD)
12 oz. Behr Deep Base Flat Exterior (HD)
3 (8oz) bottles - Delta Ceramcoat Metallic Silver #02603 (Michaels)
1 (8oz) bottle - Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601 (Michaels)
16 oz. Minwax Polycrylic Satin Finish (HD)
16 oz. Distilled Water (12oz. if you are rolling it)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- public service anouncement ---
now, for anyone who's doing this mix, DO NOT subsitute Behr's Silver Metallic for the Delta SM. if you are doing a non-LF screen... no other ingredient is more important to the mix than the Delta SM. without it, then don't even bother.

sorry, now back to you dreamstate,
since you already have the Behr Silver Metallic... you can either return it... or put it to good use.

here's what i would do. take the Behr SM and roll a SM basecoat...and let that dry.
then using a semi-smooth roller, roll 2 'wet' coats of RS-MMMaxx on top. (do not semi-dry roll this mix).
if you roll with your board laying flat on the ground... then there's no need to sand as the mix is very wet and will dry without orange-peel if you just let it be.
wait about an hour in between each coat.

that's the beauty of this mix. no specialized roller instructions.

just paint and enjoy.
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post #297 of 452 Old 10-16-2005, 09:28 PM
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This thread needs to be closed.
There is too much conflicting and confusing info in here.

Make a new one with all the updated info.

If someone like me is trying to folow the first few instructional posts of this thread they will have a nightmare on their hands.
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post #298 of 452 Old 10-17-2005, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I disagree.

All Threads that remain active for a long time will develop into something different than they originally started out as.

Much of the initial info is still pertinent. The instructional guidance still relevant and correct.

Those who just read something on a DIY Forum, and then start an involved project without first enquiring as to receiving clarification or a re-issue of updated information from the Thread's Author take upon themselves the risks of such actions, and therein possibility of failure.

For example, so very often, posts appear from all over about the "Red Oxide" addition to MMud. Several dozen replies have addressed the fact that it was a "Early LCD oriented" additive, and that for over 18 months, has been dropped as a recommended part of ANY equation. But the majority of posts were "Asking" if it was valid, not saying, "I read about -such & such- and went out and bought everything and had it mixed. Was I correct?" Sadly, a few exceptions to that rule have occurred. (...think...."PINK" )

You seem to think that to just start another thread and re-issue detailed instructions is something that just happens. Nope. That only applies to requests like yours. Those come easy. Some might have such time to do so. I often do not. Nor do I ask others to do so, but at times, some industrious Soul does exactly that because he sees a need and steps up to the Plate for a swing. (Bless 'em!) All it requires for such as you is to post up a plea for help or clarification on any point not clear, and do the rest of the "looking" yourself. "DIY" is exactly that. You are just fortunate enough that others did the initial brainstorming and prototypical samples or full size representations for you.

Otherwise, you just might not have anything to consider worthy of attempting, and most certainly, nothing to complain about as to being too much to digest.

This is not to be considered a "beratement" of your posted opinion, but just as mentioned above, a "clarification" of what is to be expected of both a DIY application's creator, and those who aspire to duplicate the method in question and hopefully, achieve the desired results.

You'll be hard pressed to find a single person on this Forum that will say they were refused additional help from MMan after posting a civil missive, or sending a PM or Email requesting such. That's all it takes. Really.

This thread doesn't disappear because I "Bump it", but because so many find it doing "AVS Searches" using Keywords pertaining to it and then post. And that occurs because a lot of people want to "paint a screen" that they have read works very well. Yet I and others always point out that this application (SM/MM) is not so very easy, that there are other alternatives, and that the instructions contained within should be followed "to a Tee", not adulterated or changed.

Those who do not take the advice above and fail to "ask first" before trying any complicated or involved DIY application must always bear the brunt of any disappointment. "DIY" means DIY, but it doesn't mean FIOFY (Figure it out for yourself.) That is why Threads such as this one exist, and should not be closed EVER as long as those seeking such guidance continue to look/ask for it.

Now then, what specifically do you need help with?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"


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post #299 of 452 Old 10-17-2005, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

dreamstate,

the qualities in MM's mix are slightly different mostly because MM's production needs are different from ours. He needs to be able to take a 'base mix' which he makes in large quantities and alter/taylor it to the specific application he's working on.

here's the mix just so that there is no confusion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1qt Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Exterior (HD)
12 oz. Behr Deep Base Flat Exterior (HD)
3 (8oz) bottles - Delta Ceramcoat Metallic Silver #02603 (Michaels)
1 (8oz) bottle - Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601 (Michaels)
16 oz. Minwax Polycrylic Satin Finish (HD)
16 oz. Distilled Water (12oz. if you are rolling it)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

--- public service anouncement ---
now, for anyone who's doing this mix, DO NOT subsitute Behr's Silver Metallic for the Delta SM. if you are doing a non-LF screen... no other ingredient is more important to the mix than the Delta SM. without it, then don't even bother.

sorry, now back to you dreamstate,
since you already have the Behr Silver Metallic... you can either return it... or put it to good use.

here's what i would do. take the Behr SM and roll a SM basecoat...and let that dry.
then using a semi-smooth roller, roll 2 'wet' coats of RS-MMMaxx on top. (do not semi-dry roll this mix).
if you roll with your board laying flat on the ground... then there's no need to sand as the mix is very wet and will dry without orange-peel if you just let it be.
wait about an hour in between each coat.

that's the beauty of this mix. no specialized roller instructions.

just paint and enjoy.

This is true, i replace with other paint, since i can get that paint on my country and it didn´t work well....

I´m waiting for Maxx to send the paint (if he still hold it )
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post #300 of 452 Old 10-17-2005, 07:57 AM
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"If someone like me is trying to folow the first few instructional posts of this thread they will have a nightmare on their hands."

I used to very thread to get the info I needed to make my screen. READ, take notes, ask questions and READ some more.
Coming here with an attitude, hoping others will do all of your leg work for you wont make you many friends, and I mean that without any offence.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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