Metallic Silver/ MississippiMud screen intructions - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 452 Old 03-14-2004, 04:06 PM
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MissippissiMan, a couple of questions for those of us spraying. On the MM layer using the HVLP with the 2.2 nozzle it still three coats like the roller method (I noticed about dewdrop had ~5 put one)? Also as the sprayer give a fairly smooth SM coat can the wet sanding be skipped?
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post #182 of 452 Old 03-14-2004, 07:02 PM
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Hello all-
Just a quick update on my continuing saga in getting this screen up and running. I went to Wayne, NJ today and met MississippiMan for a painting party. Conditions were optimal in the shop and he'd already started and gotten a few coats on a few acrylic mirror screens there. He is a serious night-owl and told me he hadn't really had any sleep - too busy painting the LF screens! His newly purchased compressor is huge enough to get the job done and he has a very nice Central Pneumatics HVLP gun with the 2.2mm nozzle.

Graciously he helped me put my wardrobe mirror up in his shop and handed me the gun to give it a whirl. Unfortunately, I'm a little height-challenged and I couldn't quite get as high as I needed in this setup. So he shoved me out of the way and did the whole thing himself! The NERVE.

Anyway, it was a short and sweet day since he had his 50,000 BTU fire-thrower there to help the drying process along. Overall, I'd say we (he) put on 2-3 good coats, evening as he went to keep it looking good. Another coat would have been ok, but I was satisfied since my pj when calibrated only throws 500 or fewer lumens. Now that I've got it up (temporarily) it looks just about perfect. A few very slightly thin spots that hotspot only in very white scenes if you really look hard. Luckily, I don't notice it when I'm sitting in my sweetspot, so it's a non-issue. But it does highlight how thin these coats are. Of course there is still some curing of the latex paint to be done, so I'll update when/if there are changes in image appearance.

There was good conversation and a beer between friends at the end of the day. I can't wait to see how the Canuck Shootout goes next month. And I'm SURE he will tell us, the good, the bad (?), and the ugly (if there is such a thing with hundreds of screens and projectors in one place).

I took some screenshots tonight, but can't upload till tomorrow. I can say in advance that the screen is a definite improvement over all others I've had. It's marginally better than the SM/MM screen I currently use, but the 'glow' is worth the price of admission. The clarity of images now is very much worth the effort I and others have put into this. Not one prone to hyperbole, I dare say Gray may be dead - long live Light Fusion!

Anyway, thanks again to MississippiMan for his help, his time, and his effort. And thanks for that beer, too. Stay tuned for SSs tomorrow.

Something profound

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post #183 of 452 Old 03-14-2004, 10:33 PM
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Hi MississippiMan or CMRA,
Can you share with me your camera settings I need to use to get the lovely pictures you guys post? I will be using a Canon S50 to take the shots.

Cheers,
Ed
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post #184 of 452 Old 03-15-2004, 06:00 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by dewdrop
Hi MississippiMan or CMRA,
Can you share with me your camera settings I need to use to get the lovely pictures you guys post? I will be using a Canon S50 to take the shots.

Cheers,
Ed

Ed, go here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...56#post3187156
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post #185 of 452 Old 03-15-2004, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by chuckvb
MissippissiMan, a couple of questions for those of us spraying. On the MM layer using the HVLP with the 2.2 nozzle it still three coats like the roller method (I noticed about dewdrop had ~5 put one)? Also as the sprayer give a fairly smooth SM coat can the wet sanding be skipped?

3 coats minimum, with a 4th "Finish" coat. Eyeballing the surface to ascertain if too much "Grey" (mirror sheen) is showing through is the best deciding factor. The thinner the coats applied, the more coats will be required to reach the right coverage factor.

Wet sanding is required if:

You put up a coat that squirts globs of paint.
You apply too much paint in one area.
You put too much paint on your second or third coat.
You get a "Drip" or Orange peel effect that doesn't blend when dry.

Wet sanding is advisable between the third and "Finish Coat" if:

You want a Glass Smooth finish. Over several coats, although the finish is supremly even, it will have a "Dusty effect" that will offset gain a tiny bit. Smooth is better, but that's mostly my preference speaking.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #186 of 452 Old 03-18-2004, 12:26 PM
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I think I have made a mess of the SM layer of my screen. I have applied 4 coates of SM with a 3/8 nap roller. I have been wet sanding to keep it smooth. My problem is it has tracks of different shades. I have included an attachment to better explain. I don't have anymore SM, and I would like to move on to the top coat MM mix. If i leave the SM the way it is now will I see these tracks when its done? Will I still benefit from the SM layer even though I have obviously done it poorly? Any suggestions for when I do the MM layers so I can avoid this? I plan to use 1/4" nap rollers which I understand will help me apply it easier. Is this going to be more challenging then the SM to apply?

Thank you very much for the help, I really want to make this work, I wish I was better at this sorta thing
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post #187 of 452 Old 03-18-2004, 12:27 PM
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Sorry I forgot the attachment of my SM coat
LL
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post #188 of 452 Old 03-18-2004, 11:32 PM
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Hi Bruce,
IMHO, I don't think it matters a great deal.

Cheers,
Ed
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post #189 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 07:45 AM
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I had completed a final coat of SM and it looked pretty good so I moved on to the MM.

I am using a 1/4" nap roller and have applied 2 coats of MM using the dry roller method. I have applied it unevenly again and have track marks. I am wondering if someone can take a look at this pick and let me know the best way to go about correcting it. Would painting horizontal help this?

I applied my coats yesturday and they ended up pink when dried. hopfully I it doesn't affect my reds to much.

The first pick captures a large portion of the screen to show the overall view (the two horizontal bands across the picture are a shadow). I am adding a second which is closer up to hopefully show what's really happening.

Thanks for any suggestions.
LL
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post #190 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 07:46 AM
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2nd file closer up to the problem
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post #191 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 09:31 AM
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Bruce can

Thanks again for your input. You have certainly been invaluable in this process. I don't think your ragging at all, I have obviously screwed this thing up and your just trying to help me salvage something.

I did apply a thinned coat of SM last night, which my wife did purchase. I think you nailed the band problem.. its got to be my heavier stripes of SM showing through. I was positive my MM coats were even and thin so it must be my SM. I went vertical with the MM last night as I regained some confidence with my last coat of SM when I switched to a brush extension rod. This enabled me to apply an even coat of paint. It just felt a lot easier going on. I wish I would have started with it. .

I just finished applying a 3rd coat of MM painting horizontal. It didn't go on as nice as when I used the rod and the bands are still there, however I did notice a strong improvement. I think this is coming from simply covering more of my dark SM. I am hoping that by applying enough even coats I will lose the SM stripe's. I realize I will probably lose the positive effects of the silver but at least I won't get pooped on by my wife for the lines running through the movie . We watched a bit last night after coat number 2 of MM and it looked great but you could see my bands whenever it was a bright shot.

She definitely didn't like that

Thanks again
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post #192 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 09:42 AM
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I'm sure this has been covered somewhere but I didn't see the details in MM's instructions earlier in the post.

When wet sanding or dry sanding, what grit paper do you use. Do you use a standard sanding block? Do most people us 3M products and what size sheets? Or, are you using a random orbital type sander? Do you sand in straight or circular motions? Also, if I decide to break out the $$$$ and purchase the spray equipment, when applying each coat to my wall, do I go back and forth, starting at the top of the screen and working down, keeping the gun perpendicular to the screen? Thanks in advance, Randy

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post #193 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 09:56 AM
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Randy,
You need to buy a wet-sanding sponge from HD. Buy a Medium/Fine sponge large enough for your hand. Get a bucket of cool clean water, dip the sponge in and squeeze a few times to incorporate the water. Then take it out of the water and squeeze your hand into a fist, eliminating as much water as you can from the sponge - but only ONCE. Now move to the screen and use even broad strokes on the surface. You'll have to squeeze out paint several times, reloading with water as you go. You're going for a smooth even surface here, not trying to remove paint.

You'll have to allow to dry for an hour or two before you paint your next coat.

Something profound

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post #194 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 10:00 AM
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BM-
It looks like you're proceeding nicely. Too bad the banding is so visible, but rest-assured that the SM will help your finished product, assuming 3-4 light coats is adequate to cover the bands. The MMud is very transluscent, so the SM will reflect light back toward you.

I'm up to about 4 coats (3 sprayed, 1 rolled) on my SD/MM mirror and I still may need another coat because the floetrol-thinned MMud is extremely transluscent. You only need to worry about getting the coats even - the transluscent paint will take care of the rest.

Something profound

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post #195 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 11:01 AM
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Bruce Can

I did apply the last coat of SM yesturday vertically, the big change for me which I felt helped my technique was to use the extension rod.

I don't have a screen to compare to, I just got my Z2 the other day, it arrived sooner then I expected and human nature took over and I rushed a little. I have some samples I intent to compare to. How do people attach sample matterial squares to their screen with out recking it?

Scoob:
I am at 4 coats now and I can still see the SM, however the bands are practicly gone . I don't understand how people are able to cover their SM layer in only 2 1/2 coats of MM, maybe I'm trying to cover it to much.

To anyone who added red oxide to their MM: Can you see a slight shade of pink after drying? It may just be mine as I did have a bit of an incedent with HD where they shoved used spatchala in my mix .

I will post some picks when this is all over so you can see how my pink screen looks.
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post #196 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 11:16 AM
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I have read all of the threads on the forum for making screens.I am getting ready to tackle the LF with the MississippiMud. I presently use an ME screen with a Sony vlp-HS3 projector. Couple of last minute questions: Is it 1 or 2 quarts of Opal perlescence in the MississippiMud mixture? I have seen it as both in the various threads. Also, Do you mix the Floetrol in to the mixture in the can or when you put it in the sprayer? So much great information that it is hard to keep it straight.
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post #197 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 11:29 AM
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speaking of information, if anyone wants me to, I could keep the latest mixtures posted on a website, to keep everyone straight.
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post #198 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 02:40 PM
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all of mm's mixes are here on the first few pages, the only problem people seem to be having is keeping the ratios the same when they try to not end up having such a large batch of mud, what is wrong with your M E screen mstmorse, it was all the rage a while ago, then revised m e then sm then sm with mm on top then using a mirror with mm on top, they are all are evolving experiments.Sir quack your best bet would be to get some local advice from professionals regarding sanding and painting techniques if you were not able to follow mm man's directions by reading them here. Truly while some people here are using medium coarse sanding sponges to wet sand and you are wondering about orbital sanders there must have been something lost in translation here , sometimes it is a lot easier to learn visually , now with all the info here i disagree a little about some of the instructions but i have been trying to help people just to follow the instructions that were given to them originally, and not try to change them or modify, I for one don't see why people are worrying about wet sanding, it is a process for very smooth surfaces i mean smooth, like furniture, or vehicles or lacquers when you need a mirror finish , using a latex house paint with a 3/8 Knapp roller on a vertical surface defeats every wet sanding process you just did there is no way you will get a glass smooth finish no matter who you are. go and look closely at some of those pics if you can see sanding marks eight feet away it is not like glass, i think the whole process of these formulas looking better has been mainly by better technique. If you are spraying i can see the energy to sand and then wet sand your smoothly sprayed finish, now a hvlp sprayer was not intended for thick latex paints either, but the modified ones that use a conventional compressor with turned up pressure and larger tips will work pretty well. I thought the formula was as simple as it could get if you are having to post a site separately for the formula there will be a lot of missed technique which i believe is what is lacking more than being able to memorize four different ingredients . if you need the formula just go to the first few pages and read again then write down the formula that will be the easiest thing you do on your new screen building process, personally i hope there are some new formulas coming out i am almost done the latest ones and i won't have any thing to do, one last note if people have been listening to cmra and mm talking they are going to be trying a mirrored film they are developing go to this site they are a theatre and movie product company they have screen material , mirror film rolls, high quality vinyl acrylic flat paint ,rear projection screen material ,front even transparent screen ,they also have flameretarder for screens if you are worried about the flammability of your screen have fun
Bruce http://www.rosco.com/main.html

Bruce
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post #199 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 03:29 PM
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I do know the different paints required, just questioning the ratio. In one place it says equal parts: 1 quart of the opal,1 quart behr ultra pure white, and 1 quart deep base. In another it says 2 quarts of the opal perlescence to 1 quart of each of the others. Just want to get it right. I have read so much praise about the MM LF that I wanted to try and see it for myself. I am continually upgrading things.
Also, Should I add thalo black also to the mix, along with the red oxide. The projector says 800:1 contrast ratio and 1200 ANSI Lumen?
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post #200 of 452 Old 03-19-2004, 04:33 PM
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mstmorse-
The original formula was 1:1:1 but someone suggested that a 2:1:1 was better, so it evolved to that being the standard. My SM/MM wall screen is made with 1:1:1 and it works very well. My SD/MM mirror is done with 2:1:1 and the verdict is still pending on that while I wait for it to dry/cure for a few days.

I did not add any pigment to my MMud, but I would have added straight lamp black if anything to help with contrast. I wouldn't add any thalo green as it might have unintended consequences. If your color fidelity is fine (by Avia or DVE), don't add anything unless it's lamp black. The red is only a suggestion and is unproven for now. I'd wait until the verdict comes in on the new Pink Goo.

Something profound

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post #201 of 452 Old 03-21-2004, 02:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by mstmorse
I do know the different paints required, just questioning the ratio. In one place it says equal parts: 1 quart of the opal,1 quart behr ultra pure white, and 1 quart deep base. In another it says 2 quarts of the opal perlescence to 1 quart of each of the others. Just want to get it right. I have read so much praise about the MM LF that I wanted to try and see it for myself. I am continually upgrading things.
Also, Should I add thalo black also to the mix, along with the red oxide. The projector says 800:1 contrast ratio and 1200 ANSI Lumen?


The switch to 2:1:1 was made as an alternative to increasing the UPW-F to achieve a full gallon mix. The Pearlescence (when muted) is a desirable quality, and if any additional mix component is to be added, it would seem the logical choice. BUT, it could also result in an increase in refeltivity that could be behind a perchant for Scoobs' LF screen to hot spot. For sure, a lessening of the pearlescent quality would temper down that aspect. One should recall that the intial intention was for a muted, not increased reflectivity...greater than without, but not so great as if used "straight up".

Red Oxide IS a proven quality, but as mentioned above, IS ONLY requires for LCD PJs.
(a tip: When using the 1:1:1 ratio, have the HD paint Man catch the Red Oxide droplet on the corner of a piece of paper and then let what pigment will drop off the paper when tilted fall into the paint. Some will remain, but the lessening of Red Oxide will result in a slightly less pink mix.

Light Fusion (mirror) SuperDeluxe (plexi painted both sides) and SM/MM (multi coated wall) all work to enhance contrast WITHOUT the addition of Lamp Black. Lamp Black should be used ONLY when you plan to use a PJ with MORE than 1200 Lumens. Then, add it slowly for the basic mix amplifies all pigments added to it. Rather, I'd increase the number of coats (4-5) until "Hot spotting" (Halo-ing) disappears. (see above) 800:1 isn't a terrible CR value, and is exactly the type of spec that LF/SD/MM was designed to complement without the resulting "dulling" of the image that can result in the use of a "High Contrast" color such as "Grey". I'm planning tests using a 2200 lumen 20-HD in the very near future and those results should determine if much of any LB need to enter into the equation.

Trying a mix based on 1 part Pearlescent, 1 part Deep Base, and 2 parts Ultra Pure White should also work toward reducing the tendency to hot spot....but in the long run, getting the proper thickness of the MMud Mix overlaying the mirror is real challenge, and is easy enough to alter if needed. Adding ANY additional pigment of LB will result in a "Done Deal"; your mix would then be "Grey" and it won't ever be anything else but "Grey". Unless of corse, you cut it with another gallon of proper MMud Mix, which is something I had to do once when I added too much Red Oxide (1/24 Oz) Yeow! That was really PINK! Scary Pink.

"Gooey" Pink!


Pink Goo. Funny how Ken suddenly came up with that development a couple months after SM/MM mix was published. (...or at least opted to divulge his -secret-) Really no pissing contest intended here, but is seems a little strange that some would look to Ken's results for justification when it IS a "Johnny Come Lately" development.

Anyway, the use of Red is widespread in "High End" screen mfg circles so I do not nor have I ever laid claim to thinking of it as an original idea. I'm just wise enough to include it where needed, that's all.

Humble, aint I?

For now.....................................


To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #202 of 452 Old 03-21-2004, 08:56 AM
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Having completed my SD/MM mirror LFS, I can say without a doubt I'm very happy to have not added any pigments to my MMud. My colors through the DVI connection on my Epson TW100 are spot on - I mean perfect. Adding pigments other than lamp black would have skewed the colors in some way. What a shame that would be.

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post #203 of 452 Old 03-21-2004, 04:14 PM
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Indeed I am getting ready to post some new pics and observations on my now-completed SD/MM LFS. A preview: it rocks pretty good and the 4th coat appears to have done the trick. Rolling this coat went ok, but it's very apparent when you roll inconsistently or miss a spot! Since my MMud is already thinned with floetrol, correcting that issue was very simple and painless.

It remains to be seen whether or not the mirror is actually better than the SM/MM wall screen, but it is impressive. Check out my full review on the mis-named CRMA thread.

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post #204 of 452 Old 03-24-2004, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Let's see.

Two 9' x 5' LF screens w/pink MMud mix

Testing will be done with SE 50-HD 1100 lumens @1700:1 CR

AND a SE 20-HD 2200 Lumens @900:1 CR

I can only hope my batteries and memory cards can stand the strain.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #205 of 452 Old 03-24-2004, 06:37 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by MississippiMan
Let's see.

I can only hope my batteries and memory cards can stand the strain.

I know those Union boys lightened your wallet as of late, but a Man of your position NEEDS more memory. Let it glow, let it glow, let it glow!
Always remember, members with too little memory only achieve 'running mate' status. More juice couldn't hurt either,
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post #206 of 452 Old 03-24-2004, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by CMRA
I know those Union boys lightened your wallet as of late, but a Man of your position NEEDS more memory. Let it glow, let it glow, let it glow!
Always remember, members with too little memory only achieve 'running mate' status. More juice couldn't hurt either,

Good Golly!

I have two sets of 4 -AA Rechargables @ 1800mh and two 128 Meg Cards

And I STILL use 'em up when taking 3 shots at a time (Exp. Bracketing) @ 2400x1800 res. I can only get about 70 shots per card at that resolution, and when you engage the processor in the camera and ask it to do all that "cumputin', it soaks up battery life like a Mississippian guzzles free beer.

.....and that's a lot of Beer!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #207 of 452 Old 03-24-2004, 09:18 AM
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Precisely.
That's 140/3 or 46 images. Minus 20% for 'oh no' and you are down to 37.
At 30 plus miles each way, that's cutting it real thin. You need more storage or less resolution. ANd for gosh sakes, get a tripod and steady that camera. Your'e not an amature anymore!
PS: Fill the frame too. Show 'em at AVS you got the "right stuff". 2nd place is Dog country.
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post #208 of 452 Old 03-24-2004, 10:48 AM
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MM-

Does your digicam take CompactFlash cards?
I have a few spares I could send your way for the big event.
And extra sets of rechargeable AA's too.
I'll even send my tripod if you don't have one handy.

-Clarence
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post #209 of 452 Old 03-24-2004, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by marcorsyscom
MM-

Does your digicam take CompactFlash cards?
I have a few spares I could send your way for the big event.
And extra sets of rechargeable AA's too.
I'll even send my tripod if you don't have one handy.

-Clarence

A generous Offer. Batteries Not Included, ...........it's still a Generous Offer. Tripod will be there already, so TBNT. I'll even get by with 240 Megs of storage, for the Shoot-out only lasts so long, and what do I care about sum stinkin' Da-light screen, or some Goo-ey Pink mess.


1. Remember my Camera is a Toshiba M81 4.2 MP Circa 2001 As of present, with a recent Firmware upgrade, 128 meg Smart Media is as big as I can go.

2. I can go down to 1600 x 1200, and do so if I'm taking Close ups and Macros. The lower res reduces the amount of light required to get an even exposure, thus Bracketed Photos are grouped even more closely as far as exposure times. But even though I use a lot of space, and even though I toss more shots than keep by a 3:1 margine, when a 2400x1800 shot hits the mark with my camera, I revel in the end result. Ask CMRA if my little $299.00 on Ubid Wonder doesn't surprise?

3. Hey, I "disclamed" any resposibility in advance about my recent shots at the show. Me was all I had, and with precious little time to do it in as well. Try stopping the image at such a show, and herding people from crossing your path. Tripod indeed. Haarrrrruuuumppppp!

4 As for Full Framin' my shots, I still smart from comments when I did so. Seems CMRA can do it with compunction, but if I do it, it's, "Can't you show more of the screen and surrounding areas?" & "We have no reference to go by", as if my/our statements of screen size were subject to conjecture.
Once again, Harrrrrruuuuuuummmmmmmmppppppp !!!!!!

But tonight I will do so. To a Fault.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #210 of 452 Old 03-27-2004, 06:52 PM
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And so it begins...

Last weekend after reading the instructions here, I picked up a sheet of 1/2" melamine particle board to make the screen out of.

Got the SM paint as well as everything necessary to make the topcoat. Just waiting for the 1st coat of the grey primer to dry so I can wetsand and begin the process. Hopefully I'll have something to test by tommorow evening .

Eventual goal when finished is to have 16:9 screen, with 2" blackout around the sides, and a stained wood edging attached to frame the screen and cover the rough edges.

This screen will be suspended from the ceiling - it's fairly heavy, but the ceiling is concrete (condo), and I should be able to support it with three concrete anchors.

Further edits as the project progresses

N.
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