My 1.5-2.0 gain - simple, no mixing, DIY Screen - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 160 Old 03-23-2005, 11:51 AM
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Howdy all, been lurkin for a while and trying all the latest diy screens since I bought my sanyo Z3. Figured it was time to get in to the mix :-) and add my 2 cents worth.

I have the wop base and ccpm top coat on right now and it shows some promise with gain and contrast but, I dont like the creamy shift in the picture. Was wonderin if a more translucent white top coat would work better, maybe a 70/30 mix ccpm to upw or deep base? Not sure if the two would mix well but it could be worth a shot.

JD
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post #92 of 160 Old 03-23-2005, 01:14 PM
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gmcjimd, perhaps a mix of ccpm and upw would work, don't know.

Here's another possible mix, 3:1, MMud + ccpm = Hmm...
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post #93 of 160 Old 03-23-2005, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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My camera sucks something fierce $79 special. Anways I think you can get the idea of the amount of gain if we assume the UPW to be a 1.0 gain.

Please note that the green tint in the first two photos is from the camera. I tried a different setting to get rid of the blue and I got green wooohoo! :mad: Also the drop off is not nearly as bad as depicted in the first two. The third shot more accurately depicts the drop off, hardly noticable. The colors definiatly POP and the contrast is much better in reality as well. I guess I should get a decent camera and post a better representation but this is all I have for now. I know it is tough to draw ant conclusion with these photos.

http://www.missiondetroit.org/images/313WHITE5.JPG
http://www.missiondetroit.org/images/313WHITE6.JPG
http://www.missiondetroit.org/images/313WHITE7.JPG

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post #94 of 160 Old 03-23-2005, 06:11 PM
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What exactly are we looking at? The sheet in the middle is the sample and the rest is UPW?

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post #95 of 160 Old 03-23-2005, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jjcritch
What exactly are we looking at? The sheet in the middle is the sample and the rest is UPW?
No - that's his WOP screen with a white/UPW sample in the middle. Looks pretty nice, if you ask me.

Mike
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post #96 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 02:37 AM
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The images show a very perceptible Hot spot. The drop of in light is certainly noticeable starting at 18" or more from the edge of the screen.

A compromise that leaves you with such plainly exhibited light issues is no real viable option at all, especially if it took 25 coats to get there.

One factor that is a good one? The Hot spot is very large, showing that overall light reflection is fairly even for a enhanced screen.

In defense of your efforts however, I'm sure the manifestation would be less during content playback..., but it's while doing such testing with Patterns or Blue screens that such things clearly stand out. and if they do show up then, you can bet that they will affect the image at times when the content can highlight such.

All is relative to what you are looking for and willing to accept.

The posted results do show better results than most all before have done using Clears & Glazes.

One thing to consider is that with such a issue, that a very slight curve to the screen might eliminate the side light drop off.. Nothing in the "Torus" range, mind you, but a few degrees might help a lot.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #97 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan
The images show a very perceptible Hot spot. The drop of in light is certainly noticeable starting at 18" or more from the edge of the screen.
Yo - MMan,

Missoin313 says the major league hotspotting (or warm spotting) is exacerbated by his camera. You'd want to keep that in mind.

* * * * *

One thing's for sure: My wife and I watched Original Sin on the "furry" (matte) side of our BO cloth screen last night - and I'd sure as heck rather see some warmspotting than the greyish flesh tones I'm getting right now. Angelina and Antonio made a plausible run for the world title in naked Twister in there - but you'd have to have a taste for necrophilia to enjoy it on my current screen.

(Note to self: Until screen problem solved, non-dead actors required to stay clothed at all times.)

(Admitted: plain ol' MMud would do better than what I've got at the moment.)

Mike
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post #98 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikesusangray
Yo - MMan,

Missoin313 says the major league hotspotting (or warm spotting) is exacerbated by his camera. You'd want to keep that in mind.

* * * * *

'scuse me, but that's nonsense. If the Hot spot isn't there, it won't be seen.
Even with a $97.00 digicam. Actually, the reverse is true. His camera was & is sufficent to pick up on the subtle difference. It's doing a better job that he realizes.

His Screen has obviously got "almost" too much direct reflection going for it, and so being, it reflects the center of the Bulb's light field intensity propotionally greater than the perimeter. This is manifest with all PJs, but the nature of how the screen deals with the light received is what determines how bad, if any, the effect will be. Please remember I wrote that with an actual image from real content, it probably won't be noticable at all.

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post #99 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan
'scuse me, but that's nonsense. If the Hot spot isn't there, it won't be seen.
Even with a $97.00 digicam. Actually, the reverse is true. His camera was & is sufficent to pick up on the subtle difference. It's doing a better job that he realizes.

His Screen has obviously got "almost" too much direct reflection going for it, and so being, it reflects the center of the Bulb's light field intensity propotionally greater than the perimeter. This is manifest with all PJs, but the nature of how the screen deals with the light received is what determines how bad, if any, the effect will be. Please remember I wrote that with an actual image from real content, it probably won't be noticable at all.

I will not try and deceive you there is some slight drop off 12-14 inches from the edge of the screen, but not nearly as bad as depicted in the photos. I beleive that it has alot to do with the heavy texture of the screen. and how the light is not reflecting back eavenly to a point the source of the camera. I think my results will be much better on a smoother screen. Which is coming soon. 16:9 parkland with the 313White. 48x85. The CCPM really does a great job of spreading the light across the screen, the texture really defeats this.

Like you said, and I stated at the beginning of this experiment it all comes down to compromise, and how much you're willing to make. I am not willing to make much, however there are some compromizes from my original goals. The question I am asking my self are: Is the slight drop off, and slight tint enought to overshadow the improvements in gain, color, and contrast? I am not sure, but as far as DIY goes I have tried about all the mixes and methods they all have compromises. For me this gets me more in the areas I really want.

In the end its all fun! I enjoy these experements eventhough it gets frustrating when it doesn't get the expected results. When I get the new screen up, I will see if my buddy will come over and take some real good photos of my super low budget mostly DIY HT.


J. Rager

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post #100 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 07:15 AM
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mission313, I'd like to suggest adding a coat of CCPM between your base coat and your reflective coat. It may help distribute the light across the screen. I too would think a smoother surface may make the difference you are looking for. Thanks for all your efforts!
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post #101 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 11:08 AM
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On my samples of the 313White, there is some hotspotting. However, I figured it was just due to my higher lumen pj and no one else was appreciating it. I wonder if more coats of CCPM or even adding some Deep Base to the CCPM would knock it down without untoward effects.

I have seen some Frosted Glass spray at HD and have tried it on a piece of tile. It does a great job taking down the gloss but once again we are stuck with a spray can.

MMan, can you empty one of these rattle cans into a gravity sprayer and use it this way?

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post #102 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 01:00 PM
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mission313, actually I think your rough-textured screen would do the exact opposite of what you're saying -- diffuse the light a lot more, producing a wider cone, and REDUCING the amount of warmspotting (falloff at the edges). I suspect a smoother surface will show even more warmspotting.

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post #103 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 04:50 PM
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Try the barest amount of additional UPW. You just want to cut down on the intensity, not the reflective ability.

I'm posting now having just gotten home from Surgery for removal of a Basal Cell cyst. Still numbed out so able to concentrate. Starting to tingle though. Big chunk of cheek went south. Won't be posting again until Sat.

Stay out of the Sun.

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post #104 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MississippiMan
I'm posting now having just gotten home from Surgery for removal of a Basal Cell cyst. Still numbed out so able to concentrate. Starting to tingle though. Big chunk of cheek went south. Won't be posting again until Sat.

Stay out of the Sun.
Ouch! Have some family history with that stuff, though I don't seem to have a tendency myself. I just hope it wasn't the blinding glare of all those Light Fusion screens that did it too you, chief. Take care of yourself - and I'm glad to hear they caught it before things got out of hand.

Get well soon,

Mike

P.S. Not to mention the lovely light of those wax fusion screens you've cooking. Just read your thread. Looks nice and is rather inspiring! (And I'm going to be exprimenting with a sort of Mirror313 today. Also have my camera now, so shots will be forthcoming.)
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post #105 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by garyfritz
mission313, actually I think your rough-textured screen would do the exact opposite of what you're saying -- diffuse the light a lot more, producing a wider cone, and REDUCING the amount of warmspotting (falloff at the edges). I suspect a smoother surface will show even more warmspotting.

Gary
I agree. This is generally true.
Have you tried putting more than one coat of the CCPM on to see if it knocks down more of the hotspotting mission313?

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post #106 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 01:17 PM
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I have not noticed any hot spotting on my wop+ccpm but i did spray both coats with an hvlp gun. One thing i do notice sometimes in bright solid colors is the pattern in the wop. It sprayed pretty even but if you have ever sprayed metal flake you know what a bear it can be to spray it with out a pattern forming.

Went out to the garage and mixed some upw in some ccpm and sprayed it over sm yesterday and found it takes very little pigment to lose transparency in the top coat. Will have to experiment some more to find the right mix.
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post #107 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gmcjimd
I have not noticed any hot spotting on my wop+ccpm but i did spray both coats with an hvlp gun. One thing i do notice sometimes in bright solid colors is the pattern in the wop. It sprayed pretty even but if you have ever sprayed metal flake you know what a bear it can be to spray it with out a pattern forming.

Went out to the garage and mixed some upw in some ccpm and sprayed it over sm yesterday and found it takes very little pigment to lose transparency in the top coat. Will have to experiment some more to find the right mix.
So spraying helps the hotspotting.
Adding deep base with less UPW should keep the transparency. But according to MMan you have to heat up the paint to 80 degrees F and thin it some to have it spray right. I just wish I had a sprayer.

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post #108 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok here is a new four panel sample with the following on it. I am starting from scratch with a new solid screen. 1/4" White tile board on a 2x3 frame it is relatively light, I will post an infographic on it later. I think it cost a total of $18 to make a 16:9 97" screen. (Note: I did not include the cost of the velcro which I am using the fuzzy side as my border or paint cause I have not decided what I m going to use yet.

Satring from left to right this is what is on this sample. The sample base is the white tileboard left over after I cut it down to the correct ratio.

1. Light Grey with CCPM topcoat
2. 313WHITE with CCPM topcoat (pretty smooth application)
3. 313GREY (new formula I will explain later)
4. good ole' UPW

ALSO - the bars in between are the raw tileboard with a ccpm top coat. I wish I had another piece to test with interesting.

I am thinking with a sprayed or smooth application and two to three light top coats of CCPM that the 313WHITE may be closer to 2.5 to 3.0 gain. It is really bright. With a high contrast projector I think it would be top notch for a cheap DIY high gain screen.

http://www.missiondetroit.org/images/TESTALL.JPG

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post #109 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikesusangray
BTW, I was just tooling through eBay US when I ran into two links for what looks like almost the exact same HVLP system I got in Switzlerland a couple weeks back,
Hey Mike I just bought one of those systems, could you give me a heads up on what to expect and some tips like certian techniques and how much you have to thin the paint if at all?

Thanks in advance.


peace
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post #110 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok here are som pics of an actual movie to give a better Idea of how it looks.

After all tha work I am truely leaning towards just using the tileboard with the CCPM top coat. It is very interesting its properties. I wonder if it is because of the very high gloss finish with the ccpm top coat. very interesting. to me it looks to have a slight gain, but it adds a freakin amazing amount of contrast between the whites and blacks I can actually see the shadow detail. With a low contrast projector this seems to be ideal. Now if I had a high contrast projector I would go with the 313WHITE. I will be using this in my upstairs theater with my old CRT Projector. It pops like there is no tomorrow. the colors are just wow.

Interesting stuff. I have to make a descision tonight so I can get painted and ready for the plethera of inlaws that will be invading my home sunday....lol.

http://www.missiondetroit.org/images/TEST2.JPG
http://www.missiondetroit.org/images/TEST3.JPG
http://www.missiondetroit.org/images/TEST4.JPG

FYI: the 313GREY is the following formula

Base: Light Grey
Reflective: 2:1 (2 WOP) (1 SM) and Floetrol additive.
Top: CCPM

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post #111 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIMJEDI
Hey Mike I just bought one of those systems, could you give me a heads up on what to expect and some tips like certian techniques and how much you have to thin the paint if at all?
Congrats on the buy!

OK - there have to be about a million people in this forum who could give better advice than I can, but here are a few things I've noticed. (And noticed, may I add, by consistently doing it wrong!)

- You don't need too thin much, if at all. I can spray silver metallic, WOP and anything else in my current arsenal without any thinning at all.

- However, the thicker paints take longer to start spraying. A couple times I've been standing there, aiming at something and squeezing the trigger and nothing has been happening. Just when I turn the spray gun around to see what's wrong ... thar she blows ... (The only thing more difficult to get off my hands than dried silver metallic is the blue food coloring I used to make Easter eggs with my kids yesterday ... )

- If you do thin, even minimally, be ready for the stuff to come out A LOT faster. It makes a difference! Actually, I probably *would* be getting better results by thinning, and I think I will when I actually start spraying on BO cloth. By I made my biggest messes so far by spraying thinned paint too close and to hard and too slow.

- Further: don't go (1) too close (ie., with the nozzle too close to your work), (2) too hard (ie., full blast - the thing has a power regulator and I seem to get better results at about half power) or (3) too slow (ie. keep the thing moving at an even distance to your work; don't dwadle in hopes of getting a thicker coat). Also, (4) don't double coat while your paint is still wet. It looks great for about 1 minute. And then it starts to sag. And then it starts to run.

- If you're working on flexible material, try to keep it flat. BEst of all, spray onto a solid surface. I've enlosed a couple picture I took of a sheet of mirror foil I sprayed with WOP. It was a lovely piece:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501...93DSC00009.jpg

For some reason I can't remember anymore, I didn't use double sided tape to hold downthe bottom when I sprayed it - and I ended up with this:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501...93DSC00132.jpg

Note the uneven spray pattern! Dimpled on top, very thick lower down, smooth and undersprayed at the bottom. And too much WOP all over. I also sprayed a normal mirror square, which came out looking much better:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501...93DSC00133.jpg

- Be prepared: I've spent about three times as long cleaning my rig as spraying with it. It cleans easily enough; it just takes some time. What works for me is to pour my paint back into my paint container, then clean out as much as possible with a rubber spatula, then rinse the container and the sprayer with warm water. Then I fill the container with hot water and spray about half a container of hot water into the metal sink (until the water sprays completely clear). Important: Make sure you spray from an empty container to get all the water out of the lines, otherwise you risk spraying water on your work next time round. Finally, I unscrew everything, rinse again and schlep back to the apinting area.

- What I don't know: I expect that it would be OK to leave the paint in the gun between successive coats and just clean the knozzle a bit. I think. I haven't had the courage to try yet. The thought of ending up with a solid clot of paint in my machine has scared me off so far ...

- Did I mention that the thing is LOUD? The neighbors won't appreciate your using this thing at 3am.

- Oh yeah: practice, practice, practice. Did I mention that you should practice, too? Figuring out a sprayer is a great time to do a little R&D on your world-beating paint mix and squirt at anything that your wife isn't expecting to see in the living room any time soon.

Have fun!

Mike
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post #112 of 160 Old 03-25-2005, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikesusangray
Have fun!

Mike
Sweet! Thanks man appreciate it. :cool: I'll have a full 2weeks of practice before I will be able to purchase a projector so hopefully I'll be affluent enough when I decide on the final formula, or two, or three.....:D


peace
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post #113 of 160 Old 03-26-2005, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jjcritch
On my samples of the 313White, there is some hotspotting. However, I figured it was just due to my higher lumen pj and no one else was appreciating it. I wonder if more coats of CCPM or even adding some Deep Base to the CCPM would knock it down without untoward effects.

I have seen some Frosted Glass spray at HD and have tried it on a piece of tile. It does a great job taking down the gloss but once again we are stuck with a spray can.

MMan, can you empty one of these rattle cans into a gravity sprayer and use it this way?
It's been done.

Shake the can forever.

Turn the Can upside down and depress the nozzel until all the propellent is gone.

Open the can as you determine is best.

Pour out the contents into a jar with a lid. You must keep the Drying agents intact

Disclaimer:

MississippiMan is no way encourages or reccomends the intentional puncturing of any pressurized Can. There is no true reccomended or best way to effect such action without some degree of risk to the person committing such an act. Do so at your own risk.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #114 of 160 Old 04-06-2005, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mission313

After all tha work I am truely leaning towards just using the tileboard with the CCPM top coat. It is very interesting its properties. I wonder if it is because of the very high gloss finish with the ccpm top coat. very interesting. to me it looks to have a slight gain, but it adds a freakin amazing amount of contrast between the whites and blacks I can actually see the shadow detail. With a low contrast projector this seems to be ideal.
Has anyone else tried this: tileboard + CCPM ?

mission313,

Do you have a link or a part number for the tileboard you used from Lowes?

Also, do you have a link or can you please confirm the name and part number: Valspar DE Translucent Iridescent Glaze Pearl no. 90627. I haven't been able to find it at Lowes or on-line.

Thanks
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post #115 of 160 Old 04-07-2005, 02:36 AM
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Mission313,

Could you post your final thoughts regarding the Valspar pearlescent mix versus WOP for a CRT projector?

I have an HD nearby (somewhat) and don't have a Lowes available. If the Valspar is recommended significantly then I'll look into getting online or something, otherwise WOP is easier to find.

Many thanks in advance for any comments!

-PGPfan
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post #116 of 160 Old 04-07-2005, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1Time
Has anyone else tried this: tileboard + CCPM ?

mission313,

Do you have a link or a part number for the tileboard you used from Lowes?

Also, do you have a link or can you please confirm the name and part number: Valspar DE Translucent Iridescent Glaze Pearl no. 90627. I haven't been able to find it at Lowes or on-line.

Thanks
I am currently using the Home Depot 1/4" Melamine tile board it looks just like an dry eraser board. It has a slight offwhite hued towards grey appearance. With the CCPM top coat it has probably a very slight gain over 1.0. This being because to get the paint to stick to it you have to take the sheen down as I had adhesion issues the first go around. I plan to upgrade this screen to the 313GREY after I get my projector calibrated. I found that some of my appeared blooming and color issues were related to the LCD alignment in my projector.

I will take a picture of the VPG stuff I bought later.


JR

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post #117 of 160 Old 04-07-2005, 01:15 PM
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I have tried my matte coating over the aluminum mylar Mike showed. Without any pigment and sprayed till you can no longer see the reflections of the tubes, you get a very high gain screen. The problem is that any gain over 2 needs to be curved. I am thinking of a Torus with this application.

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post #118 of 160 Old 04-07-2005, 01:43 PM
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Do you think the matte would adhere to the mylar well enough that it could handle the flexing involved when you build the torus? Would be a drag to build the box, spray the mylar, and then have all the matte flake off when you tried to mount the mylar!

What matte are you using? HVLP sprayer?
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post #119 of 160 Old 04-07-2005, 04:40 PM
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Gary,
I don't know about the CCPM, but my coating is flexible. It is a high performance leather coating. I am not sure about adhesion without a base coat. The samples I have already sprayed seemed to be ok. I will spray some more samples and see if there is any adhesion problems. I could probably add one or two percent MEK to help give it a bite, but that may not be necessary.

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post #120 of 160 Old 04-07-2005, 07:58 PM
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LEATHER coating!? I assume you didn't get that at HD!! Bet MMan never tried that... :D
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