My 1.5-2.0 gain - simple, no mixing, DIY Screen - AVS Forum
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DIY Screen Section > My 1.5-2.0 gain - simple, no mixing, DIY Screen
mission313's Avatar mission313 11:10 AM 03-12-2005
I have tried about 20 different mixes and combinations there of. What I have found is that pretty much everything has a trade off, even this current screen that I am going to talk about here has a trade off. The bottom line is that it is almost impossible to have your cake and eat it to with a diy screen. If you read and study TRYG's work as a primer (much respect for his hard work), I think you will find that this is a true statement. I realized without extensive development and or the proper tools and or suppliers a good 2.0 or higher screen that does not have major compromises is just too difficult.

In developing this next screen, my goals were:

- 1.5 to 2.0 gain
- Cheap under 50 bucks
- Keep It Simple (easy to do)
- Readily Available materials. (US)
- NO hotspotting (I can't stand hotspotting)
- Minimal Color shift
- Minimal Sparklies
- Will work well with both CRT and Digital projectors



Using those goals you can minimize a large number of the different combinations not based on white with the color shift. And most of the higher gain paints are going to have issues with hotspotting.

So where do I start.

I had recently gone back to Ultra Pure White Flat after many failed attempts. So I decided since this was what gave me the best overall performance I would use this as my base coat, and would start with it.

Next I went in to my workshop and started going through all the paints I had from previous attempts. At first I thought about trying another mix, and I realized that no matter what you do anytime you ad UPW to a mix it will cover the reflective elements and make the additive pretty much ineffective. The problem is I wanted to base the screen on UPW because I wanted to keep the colors in check.

I pondered for a few days and did a few tests to see what the results were. First thing I did was scrap any Idea of mixing the paints.

So that leaves me with on the option layering different paints to achieve my goals.

The next issue was well if I layer paints how could I keep the UPW as base without tinting it too much.

I ended up wanting to use translucent paints on top of my UPW base. So what do I have in the basement that meets that criterion? Well of course good ole WOP. However I have done probably 7 or 8 different wop mixes, and they almost all had sparklies. This may be an issue.

After doing a test sample, I decided to go for it. So I took my base UPW screen and painted a medium to heavy coat of WOP on top of it. I took great care to get it close to perfectly even after I applied the cote I went back over it lightly with out adding anymore paint to even it out and get it nice and textured.

I let this dry for 4 hours and turned on PV885pro CRT projector. Holy hotspot and sparkly craziness!

I thought that this was a showstopper, which I figured it would be. I just had never tried pure wop before. I did notice that the sparklies were only really prevalent in the hot spot and were very consistent. I studied the screen for a while to try and get an Idea of the color shift that the WOP caused. The wop really had some minimal color shift towards the blue, but the colors were much more vibrant and the whites almost blinding. So I decided I wanted to do a clear topcoat just to see what would happen I tested three. 2 of which I already had and the third I picked up at HD.

Here are the three combos I tried on samples (BASE COAT - MID COAT - TOPCOAT

1. UPW - WOP - Behr Light Base Flat
2. UPW - WOP - Flat Clear Gesso matte
3. UPW - WOP - Behr ultra Crystal Clear water based matte (I picked this one up)

The first combo was to dull and did not give enough gain and made the colors look dull to me. I discarded.

The Second combo was similar to the first it just seemed to take too much of the punch out. It is pretty thick stuff so maybe that was the issue. Nonetheless I discarded

The third gave me some unexpected results, I was expecting it to have the same effect but it didn’t. It dried really smooth and most of the texture from the wop application was gone. When I held it up to the light I did not notice and individually sparklies, but I did notice that it had some weird properties in that it had the same look as the white on a road sigh just not as consistent. It did not hot spot at all and when held up to a UPW sample with no topcoats it had the same coloration but only brighter, at a 3 ft distance the sparkly undercoating was gone. I decided this was going to be the one.

I applied a healthy coat to my already painted UPW-WOP screen again taking great care and going back over it to even out the coat.

So the test of truth……

I let it dry overnight and hurried down the next morning to test it out. Flipped on the projector to let it warm up and ate breakfast.

About 15 mins later I went down ant started going through my AVIA test patterns. I was dumbfounded at the progress. The colors were natural the contrast was improved. I made a few adjustments to get the projector calibrated to the screen. I had to adjust the contrast as the darker areas of the picture were now to dark compared to the whites. I also lowered my brightness a hair. I also had to turn the blue down just a hair as I noticed a slight blue push very slight. The colors were much more vivid but not overpowering. I was geeked. I have an old radiant screen that has a gain of about 2.0 it was definitely as bright but because it was based on white it had much better coloration. The picture over all appeared shaper as the bleed that I got with just a UPW was now gone. I checked the viewing cone and there really didn’t seem to be one till maybe the last few degrees adjacent, almost 90 degrees. I even can now watch sports with the lights on full.

I am very happy with this so far, 3 days and 5 movies later I really haven’t been able to notice anything negative points to this screen.

After 1-½ years of experimenting I think I finally found the compromise I was looking for. I just can’t believe how simple of a solution it was, after all those complicated mixes, mirrors, and multiple coated mixes. I think I have come close as I can get to my goals with a DIY project.

I am getting a digital projector this week so I will let you know how that goes. Proxima LX1 1078x720 native 300:1 contrast 800 lumens and a Nextvision N6 for HD tuning.

My list of materials:

I started with a 77x54 BOC screen (any screen will work)

1 – Quart of Behr Ultra Pure White Flat wall Paint $6
1 – Quart Behr Premium Plus White Opal Pearlesence No. 751 $19
1 – Quart Behr Premium Plus Crystal-Clear Water Based Polyurethane Clear Matte No. 780 $15

Total cost of paint = $40

Simple Instructions – Apply heavy even (or several light coats) coat of UPW with roller. Apply medium coat of WOP with a roller. Apply medium coat of CCM with roller let dry 4-6 hours between coats….Enjoy.

DISCLAIMER - These were my results under my conditions, and my evaluation of them.

As many of you have, I also have gotten pretty frustrated in the DIY screen fun, and I just wanted to share my results with all of you.

Best Reagrds,

J. Rager

DonRC's Avatar DonRC 04:56 PM 03-12-2005
Screenshots! We need screenshots! ;)

(Also, please forgive my ignorance. I've seen the term many times, but everybody else apparently already knows what it is. What is UPW? Thanks.)
ridetheducati's Avatar ridetheducati 05:31 PM 03-12-2005
UPW = Ultra Pure White.

I forsee this thread becoming very active.
RonF's Avatar RonF 07:20 PM 03-12-2005
That undercoat of base UPW with pure WOP over it is really powerful. There's so much gain and the colors are vibrant and vivid. ANY texture however minute at this stage shows those sparklies. But there's probably a number of ways now to keep MOST of that brightness and easily get rid of those sparklies and any unacceptable viewing cone issues for your partiucular seating arrangement. Here's another type of surface to put over it that J. Rager has come up with. I'd sure as heck have made a sample of it to check out if I had read his post prior to or during my own project as I wanted higher gain WHITE as well. Nice work!!!

It will be interesting to hear how it does with the higher 800 lumens.....if no problems or it has to be toned down a little bit......which should really be easy to figure out at this point. That's around where I tested my samples at with the G15's ouput. Maybe just a tiny amount or more of UPW mixed into the matte topcoat, if necessary?

Its funny......thanks to AVS'ers and others, Behr has a growing cottage home theater DIY screen business with zero effort or marketing on their part.
vitod's Avatar vitod 07:33 PM 03-12-2005
Mission,

I assume each coat is dried before the next and did you sand a little or not?

"I started with a 77x54 BOC screen (any screen will work)" Meaning?....
ziggyr's Avatar ziggyr 07:38 PM 03-12-2005
mission313, thanks for sharing this with us........another success story!

I am sure that mississippiman and Ronf have by now run for cover and know exactly what my next question/comment is going to be.................

ARE YOU CERTAIN RAW WOP HAS ''SPARKLIES''??????!!!!!

I FIND THIS VERRRRRY IIIIIIINTERESTING.........you are the first person to actually ''OBSERVE'' wop's properties instead of accepting it as a matter of fact.

Mission, as an educated guess, and with your experience in mixing paints previously, do these ''sparklies'' remind you of a certain common pearlescent additive?(notice I'm reluctant to use the four letter ''M'' WORD)
RonF's Avatar RonF 08:10 PM 03-12-2005
Quote:
Originally posted by ziggyr

ARE YOU CERTAIN RAW WOP HAS ''SPARKLIES''??????!!!!!
Ziggy, theres an odd thing going on here with using different schemes and higher mixes of WOP to increase gain. The sparkies I'm referring to (not sure about J. but maybe he can give his impression as well) are not like looking at shiny particles in it like I see in my Goo wall, if that's what you're referring to, and they don't cause any viewing "sparklies" anyway.....just GAIN. (Those particles may include aluminum? from what you have said) I think more with the WOP at the "pure coat" stage they are just hot light points of any and all minute surface texture you will have after 3 coats total in his case with 2 UPW & 1 WOP to get to that stage, and mine with 2 UPW and 2 WOP. And I was using 1/4" nap new rollers very carefully for all of my coats.

However, at the same time, when the screen was done and I got up close to it and with the combination of that pure, hot WOP undercoat and the thin advanced gain MMUD mix topcoats......the shiny brilliance in like the menu characters of white and yellow, where the GOO particles really can be seen, seems to look almost identical reflectively on those colors except its even more finely distributed somehow, if that makes any sense. It is a very nice effect if you're wanting brighter images with more punch and no color shift.
ziggyr's Avatar ziggyr 11:26 PM 03-12-2005
Ron, I sort of understand the effect the WOP is producing, yet,........I saw exactly the same effect a while back when experimenting with Jacquard's 3 types of pearl powders : micropearl, pearl white,and macropearl. The finer the flake the more even/diffuse the glow seemed.
That's not to say WOP has this type of powder though. It would I presume have some type of VERY FINE PIGMENT that is reflective in a similar way perhaps?
ender611's Avatar ender611 09:01 AM 03-13-2005
snapped a picture of the WOP ( check gallery ). Stuff is blinding :cool: :)

and I had a can of clear polyurethane ( was going to check out fatboy roberts results ). mission313, your observations have it earned a spot on the panel...great timing.
mission313's Avatar mission313 10:31 AM 03-13-2005
I wish I had a decent camera, to take some pics maybe in the near future. There is a big difference in how a CRT outputs light and a digital, so well see how it works with that. maybe I can borrow a good friends nice camera to take some shots.

<Ronf> I agree that the more uniform you get the application the better the results will be. I also took extreem care to get nice even coats, but it really wasn't that difficult. I also used a 1/4 nap 6" roller for the application of these coats.

<vitod> Yes I waited 4-6 hours between coats with fans on the screen. It was pretty dry. That was just the screen I have. I originally started off with a bed sheet then upgraded to a black out cloth screen (BOC) then started applying paints to it. the last application was 2 coats of UPW (Behr Ultra Pure White) So basically it was no different than any white wall or white screen.

<ender611>Wow is that with a high output digital? You will notice a big difference after you apply the CCM (Crystal-Clear Water Based Poly Matte). Maybe it is a higher gain than 1.5-2.0, it is really difficult to tell with the low lumen CRT. I think it has an average output of 250 lumens and peak of 750 lumens. But the CCM really dries super flat with no sheen at all which was awesome in that it destroyed the hot spotting, and really made the screen come alive.

EDIT: On the Sparklies, if you hold up a piece of 3m reflective tape the reflectiveness looks similar. It is more consitant rather than random sparkiles, but only after I applied the CCM topcoat. Without the top coat it was sparklie madness!

On a side note can I please ask that we do not turn this into a war of words, lets save the comparisons for shootouts an chatrooms. I have tried most of them and could comment but choose not to in an effort to keep this from turning into another one of those threads. You know what I mean?
1Time's Avatar 1Time 02:10 PM 03-13-2005
Although I'm now satisfied with the picture I'm projecting with my Pany PT-L500U on my Parkland DIY screen, I simply cannot leave well enough alone. Thanks mission313 for this new find; I can finally use the quart of crystal clear polyurethane no. 780 I've had laying around for months.
mission313's Avatar mission313 02:57 PM 03-13-2005
My only suggestion is to wait till I post the results with the digital projector. Well unless you really like living on the edge....lol.

J. Rager
RoninTech's Avatar RoninTech 06:37 PM 03-13-2005
Quote:
Originally posted by mission313
My only suggestion is to wait till I post the results with the digital projector. Well unless you really like living on the edge....lol.

J. Rager
Waiting with baited breath J. I've been viewing a Sony HS50 on a dark grey basement wall since Xmas. Being a noob to PJ's, myself and everyone that's seen it has been blown away by the pic. From what I can tell the HS50 really benefits from a high gain white screen as it already handles the blacks well. So if it goes well for you I know what I'll be doing next weekend :). I will be painting my screen directly on the painted drywall. I imagine I need to get enough coats of the base UPW to cover up the existing dark grey I put on the basement walls to reduce glare/reflections.
1Time's Avatar 1Time 07:03 PM 03-13-2005
On second thought, I may skip using UPW as a base coat since my Parkland is already white. Hmm...
ziggyr's Avatar ziggyr 08:16 PM 03-13-2005
ender611 , was that raw WOP taken with a flash?
ender611's Avatar ender611 10:09 PM 03-13-2005
was raw WOP ( was sanded so maybe 10 or 20 percent of the shiny surface is gone). beside was raw wop buried under a coat of 1:1:1 mmud and above that buried silver metallic. That over sized shot has to go and maybe I can get some downsized and fairer ( no sun in hotspot ) shots fitted into my wee space.

straight wop, just like silver metallic goes dimmer then behr ulta white or mmud at about 20 degrees off center. But unlike silver metallic that just gets noticably dimmer as you increase the angle, wop holds its brightness very close to the UPW for another 50 or 60 degrees. where the silver metallic beats it is when ambient light is allowed in.
ziggyr's Avatar ziggyr 11:07 PM 03-13-2005
ender611, strange stuff it is.
MississippiMan's Avatar MississippiMan 05:40 AM 03-14-2005
First off, Mission313, what method or reference did you use to accomidate your decision that you achieved at least 1.5 to 2.0 gain? I hope you made it though, so don't think this a pointed question. I for one have never made any such measurements on any MMud derivitive, relying rather on other's observations primarily.

It would be wise counsel indeed for one to wait until Mission313's example is tested with a significantly higher lumen PJ, one that fires it's image via a single lens.

It's a world of difference.

...but there is nothing wrong with anticipating the best possible results. Just don't let it get so anticipatory that the idea is hailed as the next best thing until proven.

<Ziggyr> How can you say that I, (or RonF haven't 'actually ' observed WOPs properties? It wasn't / isn't a ingredient in a Witches's Brew, but a known value that's been tried countlessly, sometimes with success, at other times with nothing bit failure. Rather than endlessly questioning it's merits, composition, or effectiveness, you need to ACQUIRE and try. Face it, your location means you'll never get the job done at the price point that Mission313 relates, but nothing comes for nothing, except advice, and sometimes, even that costs a bundle.


Mission313, I for one hope your efforts do result in another valid option. Certainly, it bodes well for a CRT application.

I just wish more experimenters could be using decent Spray equipment, for everything...EVERYTHING that has been related so far depends on the skill one has at Rolling unforgiving paints. More than almost any other variable, the end results of one's rolling experience is the determining factor as to if the screen' s appearance and performance measures up to expectations.

MMan
mikesusangray's Avatar mikesusangray 05:59 AM 03-14-2005
Nice thread mission313!

Up till now my attempts at cludging together a Siwss version of MMud haven't exactly been thrilling - but my version of WOP has shown more promise than anything else I'v tried yet. So I'm ready to take a stab at this.

Now I just need to find something that could approximate your CCM. My hardware store doesn't have any clear coatings in the effects section - let alone flat/matte clear coatings. In the wood work section, though, they do have a clear, flat polyurethane based glaze. Hmm. Hmmm. Hmmmm.

I think I'll buy a can and give it a squirt.

* * * * *

Say MMan: would this count as decent spray equipment? I've got it and I'm spraying happily - but since I've never used a spray system before I don't have much to compare with.

Peace,

Mike
mission313's Avatar mission313 06:36 AM 03-14-2005
I agree MMan, that it may be a horse of a different color after I throw a single point source digital projector at it.

I hope I was clear to all that these were my results under my conditions.

I do disagree on the roller skills, I am no master by any means eventhough I did take my time and made sure that I got it even, it definiatly is not perfect, but while projecting you can't see any of the small imperfections. All 3 of the paints I used in this experement are pretty easy to apply, and the only one that really needs a little extra attention is the WOP and that is simply to ensure that it is even.

In developing this experiment, as stated in one of my goals is to keep it simple. Though I agree you can get better results with spray equiptment, I believe that you can get really good results with minimal skill by rolling as well. Most people don't have spray equiptment, the desire, or the skill to use it. That doesn't discredit its superiority by any means.

I have an old 48" Radiant screen that I used as a reference for gain. I have no Idea of the actual gain of the new screen, it was just an estimation comparing it to the radian. If I can get my old camera light meter working again I may actually measure the actual gain by comparing a UPW flat white screen to this screen then finding the difference between the lux. A UPW (generally accepted as a 1.0) and whatever the lux on the new screen are when divided will give you the gain. I have been thinking about what kind of control situation I would need to set up to do this type of measurement.

I didn't do this experement or post my results to be the next big thing or steal any thunder from folks. I was just frustrated by all the different things I have tried in the last year 1/2 which just ended up being ineffective and or too much of a trade off in one area or another. I am excited and wanted to share, but I also want to state that at this point this is just like all the rest of the solutions out there in that it is not proven past my own observations. So take your time in evaluating what you want to do, and make sure you get yourself enough extra UPW so you can go back to it if the results are un satisfactory for you....lol

I do know that I am extremely happy with the results so far, and if in the end it helps some folks from spending alot of time, money, effort, and frustration that I have experienced making a DIY screen then yahoo for this community.

J. Rager
vootkur's Avatar vootkur 07:13 AM 03-14-2005
Quote:
Originally posted by mikesusangray


Say MMan: would this count as decent spray equipment? I've got it and I'm spraying happily - but since I've never used a spray system before I don't have much to compare with.

Mike
I have the lower model in that line (the 650) and I have to say that that it works great as a gravity-feed HVLP alternative. It is an HVLP machine..just not gravity-fed. In any case, that machine is certainly better than rolling for getting nice thin and consistent coverage.
MississippiMan's Avatar MississippiMan 08:10 AM 03-14-2005
Quote:
Originally posted by mission313
I agree MMan, that it may be a horse of a different color after I throw a single point source digital projector at it.

I hope I was clear to all that these were my results under my conditions.

I didn't do this experement or post my results to be the next big thing or steal any thunder from folks.
J. Rager
Awww..., ya jus go rite ahead and shake the foundations of DIY to the core.

What we ALL want is the best for less.

Less time.

Less effort.

Less worry.

Less Failure

........................and LESS MONEY.
mikesusangray's Avatar mikesusangray 09:21 AM 03-14-2005
Quote:
Originally posted by vootkur
I have the lower model in that line (the 650) and I have to say that that it works great as a gravity-feed HVLP alternative. It is an HVLP machine..just not gravity-fed. In any case, that machine is certainly better than rolling for getting nice thin and consistent coverage.
Cool. I actually have an older version of the 850 model - the 800. It was an impulse buy on a Swiss auction site - got it for about 100$, which seems like a decent price. Now that I have it I can hardly walk past a fire plug without feeling that primal, very male urge to ****, aim and spray!

Peace,

Mike

P.S. Hey - is this DIY gig, like, you know, an all GUY thing?
mikesusangray's Avatar mikesusangray 09:28 AM 03-14-2005
Er, yeah.

To, umm ****, aim and spray, as AV forums so chastely put it. I had sort of forgotten that that the verb in question is also a noun commonly used to denote roosters and male appendages.

As I was saying: This *is* a very male pursuit, isn't it?

And now, with apologies, back to your regular programming ...

Mike
MississippiMan's Avatar MississippiMan 11:20 AM 03-14-2005
Quote:
Originally posted by mikesusangray
Er, yeah.

To, umm ****, aim and spray, as AV forums so chastely put it. I had sort of forgotten that that the verb in question is also a noun commonly used to denote roosters and male appendages.

As I was saying: This *is* a very male pursuit, isn't it?

And now, with apologies, back to your regular programming ...

Mike
It may seem like that "Guys", but over the last 2 - 1/2 years, I've seen and read plenty of DIY posts from the fairer Sex.

Many Lurk & learn.

The thing is, they ask, they do, they're satisfied, and they go.

We can't let it go.

Mars & Venus

BTW....as to that HLVP Kit Sprayer, it looks nicer than any I've recently seen, and far be it from me to judge it by anything else than the satisfied comments I've read recently here..., that is until I can get my mitts on one and try it out. With the recent "thinning of the MMud Mix, the prospect of such a Spray outfit having the "oomph" required to effectively coat a very large surface smoothly with higher viscosity paints has bee made an easier thing to realize.

Seeing is believing, and I for one would love to NOT see the big 32 Gallon Compressor I have tagging along and bouncing about in my PU
ziggyr's Avatar ziggyr 06:34 PM 03-14-2005
MMan, by observing WOP ''properties'' you know exactly what I mean........examine a small amount at close range with the intention of perhaps recognising any known pigments. It is no secret that I am curious as to what's in this stuff and It would be interesting to know just that.
According to many including yourself, WOP's performance is unique against other pearlescent additives and this makes the curiosity level even higher.
I really dont give a ''RAT'S ASS'' if I am critisised at endlessly questioning WOP's merits. This is due largely to the fact that there seems to be a stubborn persistance (like myself apparently) to ignore why it works the way it does......surely we should all be a little curious as to ''HOW COME?'', as all other ''reflective paints'' on this planet all use common and predictable ingredients to achieve their purpose.
I am not concerned about the expenditure/''price point'' required to make up a MUD mix all the way here in Australia. Money has never been a problem.....a good job based on ''endlessly questioning'' things around me since my childhood.
Yes, I will acquire it and try it.....eventually. Until then I will still be trying some other ''poor man's WOP'' paints with less than supernatural properties and ''KNOWN'' ingredients.......mmmmmm.......self flagulation.....
RonF's Avatar RonF 08:13 PM 03-14-2005
Ziggy,
I just checked out in the garage and guess what.....I have a little WOP left in the bottom of one the used plastic containers it comes in. I feel your pain.....errrr......your earnest curiosity from across the sea. When I have a chance, soon, I will try to do for you what maybe you would do if you had it. Ignore completely its functional, working characteristics and rather, spend days dissecting it clinically. Just teasing.......!!

I know you said something about rubbing it between the fingers and smearing some on a (white?) card and looking at it through a loop or magnifying glass at a reflective angle opposite a bright light. I've only got a loop though, like you'd use for slides on a transparency box. I don't know if that'll do it or not. Usually you need to be right above a slide and close to it. I doubt I could be on the opposite angled side with it tilted at all, though.....maybe just a tiny bit off axis and tilted. It's 8x power.

Suggestions? Other things you want me to do? Maybe it does have mica, who knows....and for some reason Behr doesn't want to cop to it? I agree it must have some kind of minute particles. But again, so what? I did a whole thread on looking for some source of mica in a "clear" suspension, and this comes pretty close, though it is pearlescent rather than clear.
DonRC's Avatar DonRC 09:16 PM 03-14-2005
Quote:
and for some reason Behr doesn't want to cop to it?
It's a top-secret proprietary blend of DDT and asbestos... :D

*chuckle*
ender611's Avatar ender611 09:26 PM 03-14-2005
tastes like bitter chicken but gives you a great smile. thought I'd share. man i feel weird.
raoul's Avatar raoul 12:15 PM 03-15-2005
er... what's WOP?
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