Ambient Light screen development thread.. - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 09:07 AM
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I am going to try to help you out. I think the best thing is just to link to the suppliers, and maybe you can get replacements in Norway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyoplos View Post

Hi all

First I want to thank all the dedicated people on this forum that has used a lot of time and effort in testing the various paint mixtures to try and get a good picture.

I want to try and make a screen but I am not familiar with the names that is used on the different components (im from Norway )
Im gonna list the components that I am unsure about(im "green" when it comes to paints so some question might seem stupid)

1. Minwax Polycrylic Satin
- minwax is the brand name? is this paint or oil? satin is color?

http://www.minwax.com/products/prote...polycrylic.cfm

SATIN IS THE FINISH (AS IN "NOT GLOSS")

2. Behr Deep Base 1300
- Behr is brand name? is this a color or thinner perhaps? 1300 ?

HERE IS THE MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET: http://www.msdsvault.org//GENERALPDF...hr-Premium.pdf

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT IT PROVIDES BULK AND TRANSLUCENCE TO THE MIXTURE WITHOUT AFFECTING THE COLOR OF THE MIXTURE.


3. Red Oxide - (Delta)
- Delta is brand name? can i use any water based paint as long as the color is red oxide?

HERE IS THE COLOR CHART FOR DELTA CERAMCOAT PAINTS. PERHAPS YOU CAN FIND A REPLACEMENT IN NORWAY: http://www.deltacrafts.com/Paint/Cer...ColorChart.asp



4. Phthalo Green Blue Shade (Delta)
- this one makes me scratch my head

SEE ABOVE--ALTHOUGH I AM PUZZLED MY THESE AS WELL. I HAD ENOUGH TROUBLE FINDING PHTHALO GREEN, LET ALONE PHTHALO GREEN BLUE SHADE. (I THINK IT JUST MEANS A MOSTLY GREEN COLOR THAT LEANS TOWARD BLUE)

5. Phthalo Blue Green Shade (Winsor&Newton)
-

6. Delta Ceramcoat Pearl Finish
- what is ceramcoat? pearl is a color ?

DELTA PEARL IS IN THE COLOR CHART--BUT YOU MAY ALSO WANT TO LOOK AT: http://www.behr.com/behrx/act/view/p...ishes&catId=18

7.Delta Ceramcoat Silver Metallic
- now Im guessing this is a silver metallic paint?

YES

8. Behr UPW
- what is UPW?

UPW=ULTRA PURE WHITE: http://www.behr.com/behrx/act/view/p...=1050&catId=19

Right now I have no clue what to ask for when I go to the paint shop, so Im hoping someone can explain short what the different components are and what they were really ment to be used for, like floor paint, ceiling paint or just a plain thinner.

I hope this helps.

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post #362 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 09:19 AM
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Incidentally, I wanted to comment on my screen.

I appreciate the work everyone has put in. I am certainly no expert on this stuff.

I basically mixed up a batch of the BLAM 12i (or whatever it is being called) (although mine is a bit different, in that I took my leftover formulation, and quite imprecisely added a little more UPW, Deep base, Polycrylic, and then added the colors again (on the low side of the ranges), and ended up with a shade of gray a lot brighter than my last one. Painted it on the screen.

I am wowed by the picture. Yes, it does have some ambient level qualities, in that the image is definitely watchable with all lights on in the room.

But when I have total light control. Wow--it absolutely blows away the BOC I had been using. It's not even close. A lot of the tweaks in this hobby provide incremental benefits, but this one blows away what I had before. Colors are rich and vivid--very 3D. Blacks are inky. And I tested on the darkest scenes (same ones as before) and it is just the right level of comfort. I can see lots of detail in the dark scenes.

My screen, using the thick vinyl sheet from Joann's, lays very flat, WITHOUT ANY DISCERNIBLE WAVES AT ALL! I was very surprised by this.

What I did was provide no border at all, and let the edges curl up a bit (about 2 inches on each side curl toward the audience). I then sit the picture within on the flat part of the screen, and it is absolutely flat. I am not really losing anything, because the edges would be taken by the tape. I think by artificially trying to flatten the edges, it introduces tension within the screen itself, which causes the waves. I may try to stiffen the edges with some tape anyway, just to see if that is the case.

The only drawback I have noticed is that in very bright scenes, I can see some roller marks on the screen. I am hoping they disappear after the screen cures a bit.

Again, thanks to all who have contributed. Esp. Big Lyle.

I think I am done with this for a while. Good luck to everybody.

I'll try to take some pictures and post.

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post #363 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 09:58 AM
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Thank you Steve and Marc, this helps alot. I think i know what to look for now, but I think I might have to go thru the try and fail procedure, since Im not likely to find the same colors/components up here, now I need to take a trip to all the local stores and see what they have and make a detour home to dad to get the aircompressor
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post #364 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 11:09 AM
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Hello everyone, I recently got a refurb 4805 and have been loving these forums. I'm planning on trying out benven's Canadian Grey mix (mostly 'cause i'm in canada and everything was simple to find) but i'm wondering if I couldn't help some of you out with the proper amounts of these Red/Green/Blue mixes.
You see I work in a print shop and we have a very accurate device for measuring colour and figured If someone (maybe benven since he's probably close to me and knows what's around?) wanted me to mix up some inks and see which combination yields the most neutral colour. I think I'd have to measure the inks BEFORE anything reflective was added to the mix so i'm not sure how much it'd help. either way it'll give me something to do at work other than what i'm being paid for


Happy to provide any help I can.

LinxBrother
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post #365 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

For discussion, biglyle's 12 part mix small panel in the center, Canadian Gray background. First picture in drakness, second picture with the lights on.

(snip)

Really makes me wonder why psennett's picture with CG in it is so dark??

It was sabotage on my part, to make the CANADIAN GRAY look bad. Revenge will be mine!!! BWAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA.

OK, actually, I don't know. I'll mix up a new batch sticking to the white in the specified amount and try again. Tell me if you think it matters how dark the undercoat is, because I will paint the neutral gray background again if needed. Otherwise I'll just paint the remix over the top of the current (too dark?) gray.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #366 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinxBrother View Post

Hello everyone, I recently got a refurb 4805 and have been loving these forums. I'm planning on trying out benven's Canadian Grey mix (mostly 'cause i'm in canada and everything was simple to find) but i'm wondering if I couldn't help some of you out with the proper amounts of these Red/Green/Blue mixes.
You see I work in a print shop and we have a very accurate device for measuring colour and figured If someone (maybe benven since he's probably close to me and knows what's around?) wanted me to mix up some inks and see which combination yields the most neutral colour. I think I'd have to measure the inks BEFORE anything reflective was added to the mix so i'm not sure how much it'd help. either way it'll give me something to do at work other than what i'm being paid for


Happy to provide any help I can.

LinxBrother

LB,
I don't know enough about paint to say if what you propose would substantially add to the cause. I suspect so, as I keep getting a "neutral grink" (grey-pink). But BigLyle would probably be best to answer.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #367 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinxBrother View Post

I think I'd have to measure the inks BEFORE anything reflective was added to the mix ...

Would the high reflectivity hurt the meter? I would think that even a perfect mirror can only reflect back, at most, 100%. Unlike a camera, a spectrophotometer won't "blow out" the brighter stuff to get a reading on the darker stuff.

All that to say: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE! Test every pigment and mix in these threads! I'm becoming a color info junky and I need a more intense hit!

(Really, it would be much appreciated, and could lend some insight.)
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post #368 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 03:27 PM
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Quote:


OK, actually, I don't know. I'll mix up a new batch sticking to the white in the specified amount and try again. Tell me if you think it matters how dark the undercoat is, because I will paint the neutral gray background again if needed. Otherwise I'll just paint the remix over the top of the current (too dark?) gray.

Painting over the current panel is fine. A couple of coats should do it.

Meow.
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post #369 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 03:35 PM
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I have an idea for getting a better measurement on Biglyles pigment drops. What if we were to use an eye dropper with water instead of the pigments first. We'll use 30 drops for arguements sakes. Ok drop 30 drops of water using an eye dropper into either tsp or tblsp bakers measuring spoons or maybe even the plastic cup you get when you buy over the counter cough syrup. These usually are in ml. Then using a Sharpie(black permenant marker) mark the side of either the spoons or the cough syrup measuring cup. When im out tomorrow ill pick up and eyer dropper or better yet waste 30 drops of the Visine up in the medicine cabinet What ya guys think?
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post #370 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 04:34 PM
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what is so hard about getting the drops to fall from thier original containers?

Squeeze lightly until a single drop falls. Release pressure so the tube sucks in air and repeat step one. I based my mix on drops from each bottle of paint. The drops will differ in size based on the thickness of the paint. It is far easier that using tiny little measuring spoons.

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post #371 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 04:53 PM
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Squeeze lightly until a single drop falls. Release pressure so the tube sucks in air and repeat step one. I based my mix on drops from each bottle of paint. The drops will differ in size based on the thickness of the paint. It is far easier that using tiny little measuring spoons.

Was just replying to others who have had problems with the drops.
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post #372 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

what is so hard about getting the drops to fall from thier original containers?

Squeeze lightly until a single drop falls. Release pressure so the tube sucks in air and repeat step one. I based my mix on drops from each bottle of paint. The drops will differ in size based on the thickness of the paint. It is far easier that using tiny little measuring spoons.

Well, I did exactly as you suggest and my first mix came out medium pink. On the second try, I cut the red and purple by 1/3 and it still came out slightly pink.

Yes, I'm using all of the brands suggested.

So I'm going with the ml or the megamix as previously suggested.

Patrick

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post #373 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 05:23 PM
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LOL, I didnt mean to rattle any cages. I have had good luck with the drops, maybe I have been lucky.

If its too pink, add a drop or two of the green and blue and a touch of the yellow to counter balance it. It doesnt take much to get it back on track.

Hell my last batch looked a little pink as well because I was talking on the phone while mixing it. 1-2-3-2-3-4-4-5 makes for to much red, hehe.

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post #374 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 05:35 PM
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Would the high reflectivity hurt the meter? I would think that even a perfect mirror can only reflect back, at most, 100%. Unlike a camera, a spectrophotometer won't "blow out" the brighter stuff to get a reading on the darker stuff.

It's not that not that the meter get's hurt, it's just the nature of metallic and pearlescent colours. They can change depending on which angle you look at them, so the spectros that read them are multi-angle and VERY expensive because they have to have so many sensors packed into a portable device. Our device is designed more for fabrics and textile's as we make the transfer paper for sports jersey's.

I'm also considering making a neutral gray screen from some polyester fabrics we use, just can't seem to find something with a tight enough knit that's not too textured.

thanx for the replys guys. this place rocks.
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post #375 of 514 Old 12-09-2005, 10:01 PM
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Quote:


I'm also considering making a neutral gray screen from some polyester fabrics we use, just can't seem to find something with a tight enough knit that's not too textured.

LinxBrother, I used the metallic silver PVC fabric from MJTrends. Smooth as a baby's bottom. And, it paints up real nice.

Meow.
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post #376 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

LinxBrother, I used the metallic silver PVC fabric from MJTrends. Smooth as a baby's bottom. And, it paints up real nice.

Benven,
I looked at that fabric color and it's considerably lighter than the 50% grey that I used as a basecoat. Could that have a major effect on why my sample of CG looks so dark?

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #377 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 08:14 AM
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Quote:


Benven,
I looked at that fabric color and it's considerably lighter than the 50% grey that I used as a basecoat. Could that have a major effect on why my sample of CG looks so dark?

psennett, that's a good point. It may have an effect. When I was painting MDF panels I just used the straight aluminum as a base and then just kept recoating with the various mixes. Maybe you could try that out and see what you get.

Meow.
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post #378 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 12:39 PM
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Linxbrother,
Which unit do you have? I am running a Datacolor unit, which is the most accurate in the industry. Even so, I don't know what I would be able to surmise from reading samples with it.


On the mixing of paints, as I have stated previously the best way is with a scale. Barring that, a min and max drop amount might be easiest. This sounds like it will be needed anyway, as it looks like there might be a pigment strength issue with the mixes. Lots of variables involved. If only someone would sell a prepackaged mix.

Ericglo

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post #379 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Linxbrother,
Which unit do you have? I am running a Datacolor unit, which is the most accurate in the industry. Even so, I don't know what I would be able to surmise from reading samples with it.

Ericglo

As I understand it:
If the pigment mix showed relative peaks at the wavelengths corresponding to our projectors' R, G, and B and it showed relative valleys at all other wavelengths, then we can know that, by definition, the mix is helping to reject ambient light. If the curve is relatively flat, than the mix isn't rejecting ambient light any more than projector light.

Even if it's reflectance curve is not showing peaks where we want it to, it may show other peaks (color push). And rather than just choosing a color to add because it "looks" like it will correct the color, we can choose a color that, based on its reflectance curve, will correct the color.
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post #380 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

Linxbrother,
Which unit do you have? I am running a Datacolor unit, which is the most accurate in the industry. Even so, I don't know what I would be able to surmise from reading samples with it.


On the mixing of paints, as I have stated previously the best way is with a scale. Barring that, a min and max drop amount might be easiest. This sounds like it will be needed anyway, as it looks like there might be a pigment strength issue with the mixes. Lots of variables involved. If only someone would sell a prepackaged mix.

Ericglo

Did someone say SELL?

Thread Closed

/channeling Alan

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #381 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 03:11 PM
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I am sure the word sell is not censored, just the person who is selling mentions the word sell .

I have been considering starting to set up a screen paint lend program !!

The program will work !! listen up there is no selling, I will lend you the paint and all you have to do is send a damage deposit that if the paint is not returned within thirty days I will keep the damage deposit .

I am doing this solely for my diy compadres, I feel that is the least I can do for my fellow diyers in the war against commercialism , and those evil screen makers over there in the enemy's forum

Bruce

PS
So is this formula perfected to the point where we have to start weighing it out in thousanths of an ounce yet ? or are we still perfecting ?

Bruce
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post #382 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can View Post

I am sure the word sell is not censored, just the person who is selling mentions the word sell .

I have been considering starting to set up a screen paint lend program !!

The program will work !! listen up there is no selling, I will lend you the paint and all you have to do is send a damage deposit that if the paint is not returned within thirty days I will keep the damage deposit .

I am doing this solely for my diy compadres, I feel that is the least I can do for my fellow diyers in the war against commercialism , and those evil screen makers over there in the enemy's forum

Bruce

PS
So is this formula perfected to the point where we have to start weighing it out in thousanths of an ounce yet ? or are we still perfecting ?

Bruce

I'm going to draw up the specific ratios and mix up a big pot. Then I'll start my own "paint lease program". I'll bill your PayPal account $2.50 per month for as long as you use the screen paint mix. If you discontinue using the screen paint, simply remove it from your screen material, return it to me, and the lease is discontinued.

A $150 shipping interruption insurance policy is required, and I know where you can get that from. More details on request.

Patrick

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #383 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 04:08 PM
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All I know is I could be watching a firehawk for all the time and money I have spent LOL.

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post #384 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 04:19 PM
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If the pigment mix showed relative peaks at the wavelengths corresponding to our projectors' R, G, and B and it showed relative valleys at all other wavelengths, then we can know that, by definition, the mix is helping to reject ambient light. If the curve is relatively flat, than the mix isn't rejecting ambient light any more than projector light.

Even if it's reflectance curve is not showing peaks where we want it to, it may show other peaks (color push). And rather than just choosing a color to add because it "looks" like it will correct the color, we can choose a color that, based on its reflectance curve, will correct the color.

I think that would be an excellent idea. I still don't quite understand how in one layer, mixing iridescents and metallics along with the light absorbing transparents as well as the whites would help in absorbing ambient lights as well as reflections. From my layman's understanding of pigments and dyes, the iridescents reflect and in fact refract all light into a variety of lights (hence the pearly, "rainbow" effects) in all sorts of directions. I would've thought that one would need a non RGB absorbing layer first, then a shiny, white and/or iridescent layer for the bottom. Incandescent light, the most common ambient light, has a higher amount of red/orange/yellow in it than other colours. Also, when mixing RGB, each of R, G and B absorb light from the other 2 lights so hence you'd be darkening each image as a result.

When I read the patent for Mirage or DNP screens, they work on thin coatings of different refractive indexes on beads which as a result reject light from a particular angle and only reflect light that is directly shone onto it. I'm definitely not a scientist but that's what it seemed to be anyway...
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post #385 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

All I know is I could be watching a firehawk for all the time and money I have spent LOL.

Just for the materials, much less the time. At $5/hour, plus the materials, you could probably be watching a PE7700 on your Firehawk, sipping Macallan 1946.

Patrick

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post #386 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 06:41 PM
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Ericglo,
We have an X-rite sp64, looks like it has almost the exact sames specs as the Datacolour 110P, so I be they even share some of their internals.

Quote:


If the pigment mix showed relative peaks at the wavelengths corresponding to our projectors' R, G, and B and it showed relative valleys at all other wavelengths, then we can know that, by definition, the mix is helping to reject ambient light. If the curve is relatively flat, than the mix isn't rejecting ambient light any more than projector light.

Even if it's reflectance curve is not showing peaks where we want it to, it may show other peaks (color push). And rather than just choosing a color to add because it "looks" like it will correct the color, we can choose a color that, based on its reflectance curve, will correct the color.

Sortof what I was thinking, only that an RGB mix with peaks at something corresponding to the projectors would be very hard to find I think. The pigments themselves would almost have to correspond and that's pretty unlikely. But you never know which is why i'm really stoked for trying. Even if we could get something with zero push or even customize it based on what your projector I bet would could get some good results. I'm gonna try and see if I can't use of some of that Tech Support time we pay for every year and see if X-rite's people have any ideas. Technically if I entered a bunch of different inks/paints into the software as well as the substrate I could draw a reflectance curve and have the software try and match is as closely as possible.
Quote:


Also, when mixing RGB, each of R, G and B absorb light from the other 2 lights so hence you'd be darkening each image as a result.

I totally agree, I'm thinking that if you really wanted to take advantage of this you'd need to spray the Red Green and Blue Inks at the same time and in the same amount, just like 3 giant, handheld inkjet printheads, or something to that effect. You know what i'm saying? .

Quote:


When I read the patent for Mirage or DNP screens, they work on thin coatings of different refractive indexes on beads which as a result reject light from a particular angle and only reflect light that is directly shone onto it. I'm definitely not a scientist but that's what it seemed to be anyway...

THAT is a good idea, anyone remember how to measure indexes in different substances? I'm sure they tought is in like grade 11 chemistry, or was that physics? ah who knows anymore...
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post #387 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 08:00 PM
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Just a quick note of a current project. I'm working with user "tilt" on here and we just painted my screen today. We rolled on, using 1/4" nap for the primer and gloss coats, and 3/16" for the biglyle 12 mix. I used amounts between the controlled and ambient formulas. 2 coats for each the primer, gloss, and mix.

Some notes which may be helpful for others:
--We mostly ran out of mix, another 25% would have been great for 2 full coats just to be safe. (This is on a 97" diagonal screen.)
--"tilt" used 1/2" MDF and I used 3/16" hardboard(like pegboard w/o holes). There didn't seem to be much difference after the gloss coats were on.
--The mix was slightly pink, we added 2 drops of the Phthalo Green and Blue, and one of the yellow. It also seems like it dries to more of a neutral color.
--Counting drops is fun.
--I'd order the Phthalo Green off the internet, we had no luck finding it in Lincoln. "tilt" found a place online that was reasonable including shipping.

I'll be picking the screen up tomorrow and probably putting it up Monday sometime. I'll try to take pictures, anyone have tips of how to get "true" pictures? I'll be using a 4805 and he'll be using a H31 on basically the same screen, he is using the light controlled formula.
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post #388 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pgans View Post

Just a quick note of a current project. I'm working with user "tilt" on here and we just painted my screen today. We rolled on, using 1/4" nap for the primer and gloss coats, and 3/16" for the biglyle 12 mix. I used amounts between the controlled and ambient formulas. 2 coats for each the primer, gloss, and mix.

snip
--Counting drops is fun.
snip

I'll be picking the screen up tomorrow and probably putting it up Monday sometime. I'll try to take pictures, anyone have tips of how to get "true" pictures? I'll be using a 4805 and he'll be using a H31 on basically the same screen, he is using the light controlled formula.

Counting drops is fun? C'mon, share what you're smoking with the rest of the class.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #389 of 514 Old 12-10-2005, 11:30 PM
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Okay, here's what I will try and I gave it a temp name.

5PLV2 - (Part Light Version 2)
1/4 cup UPW
1/2 cup pearl (preferably delta, but folk art or behr will do)
1/4 cup minwax (satin)
1/4 cup deep base
1/16 cup folk art metallic sequin black

Here it is converted into parts:

4 parts UPW
8 parts pearl (preferably delta, but folk art or behr will do)
4 parts minwax (satin)
4 parts deep base
1 part folk art metallic sequin black

The 5PLV2 is the lightest of the three 5-part mixes shown in psennet's screen shots shown in post #322 on page 11 of this thread. I rolled 3 thin coats of the above mix over an UPW gloss base and also some of it straight onto a DoAble board and compared these to my white screen that I bought off of eBay. I used a 3" very thin nap cheapo roller and found it very easy to roll. I used my Optoma H57 in econo-mode from a 10' viewing distance with about a 7' picture. Here are my findings:

The 5PLV2 showed just how washed-out my picture is with my white screen. The main reason my picture is washed-out is my H57 is too bright for my white screen. Although one way of dealing with this would be to use an ND2 filter, I suspect one of these new gray mixes would fare better.

The 5PLV2 resolves my wash-out problem very well. With the 5PLV2 I can see detail in the blacks and dark scenes that I cannot make out with my white screen. I prefer the 5PLV2 directly over a DoAble. For some reason I can't explain the 5PLV2 over high gloss has a slight yellow tinge to it when compared to the 5PLV2 over a DoAble. If painting the 5PLV2 for my screen today, I would roll 3 coats with a semi-dry roll technique directly onto a DoAble board and skip the UPW gloss.

Over all I enjoyed the 5PLV2 and if I used it today, it would be a significant step up from my white screen. Although for the most part it seems color neutral, I suspect it may have a very slight blue push. My only other observation is the whites were not as bright as my white screen and the colors did not "pop". I assume this was due primarily to the greater proportion of UPW in the 5PLV2 than what is used in the 2 other 5-part mixes.
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post #390 of 514 Old 12-11-2005, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by benven View Post

For discussion, biglyle's 12 part mix small panel in the center, Canadian Gray background. First picture in drakness, second picture with the lights on.



Really makes me wonder why psennett's picture with CG in it is so dark??

As psennett posted earlier, he added more UPW than what your Canadian Gray mix calls for. UPW darkens the picture. This may be why psennett's picture of Canadian Gray seems so dark in post #322.

I haven't found phthalo green in Vegas to make biglyle's 12 part mix, so I will have to order it online and try it out next weekend. For now I'm going to try Canadian Gray again and see how well it compares to my 5PLV2 test panel.
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