Ambient Light screen development thread.. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 06:39 AM
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More good work!

I just last night veiwed a Sony Black Screen w/HS51 Pj

Horrible. Far under what we "ALL" can/have accomplished.

Not to be even compared to. Where the hell did all the hoopla
on THAT thing ever get started let alone trumped as "The next big Thing/

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #92 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 08:39 AM
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BigLyle, those are great photos. Once these formulations start coming out, we should have a sticky, where people can go and get the latest update to the formula. (For all I know, all the formulas are out, but buried in all of these long posts...)

One thing I wanted to mention is I have been studying what I believe to be Sony's screen patent application, which anyone can view by going here:

http://aiw2.uspto.gov/.aiw?Docid=200...y=C1F0A699C3AD

Anyway, I wanted to point out their approach: They use alternating reflective and dielectric films to reflect only red, green and blue, and absorb all other wavelengths.

The specific wavelengths of the colors are denoted:

Red=642 nm
Green=532 nm
Blue=457 nm

Don't know if this impacts any development of anything here on this thread. Has the RBG pigments been discredited? Pigments that reflect only these wavelengths would do the same thing, wouldn't it? Is it possible to get pigments that reflect particular wavelengths?

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post #93 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 09:16 AM
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So it would seem RGB is flawed, when utilizing pigments. See this article:

http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfadd/1160/Ch23RR/Sub.html

It has to do with Color Subtraction--Red pigment reflects red and absorbs green and blue. Blue pigment reflects blue and absorbs red and green. Green pigment reflects green and absorbs red and blue. Add these together and you absorb all colors, leaving murky brown or black.

Here's a thought, then. What about dots of each color, where each color is its own space, and therefore reflects that particular color, but a dot next to it will reflect another color. Make these dots small enough, and your eye should be able to combine the reflections of the colors from each particular dot.

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post #94 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 09:47 AM
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My mix contains red, blue, green and yellow.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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post #95 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 09:49 AM
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Interesting. You're getting really good results, as well.

Perhaps it has to do with how the pibments are mixed, or what base they go into...

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post #96 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 10:10 AM
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In all honesty, all I think the colors do (and I have tried paints and pigments) is change the color of the finished mix. I really think they do very little, if anything at all, to help the ambient light properties of the screen. Using them simply allows you to achieve the perfect shade of grey in order to keep color shift to a bare minimum.

What I have been finding is that differant metallic silvers, metallic greys, metallic aluminums ect all produce far differant results with ambient light, even though their colors may be very similar. Hence the reason for the constant tweaking, and this costing so damn much both in time and effort.
When you have something you think you like, it becomes a real pain in the arse to swap single ingredients time and time again just to see what "it" will do to the finished mix.

I also now believe small samples arent worth very much, as they seem to give a false impression of just how well something will or will not work. The are a good starting point, but other than that they arent worth much. The half screen samples seem to be a great way to tell what works and what wont. Ideally, two screens at a time would be perfect, but is a little bit (to put it mildly) awkward to do. Painting one screen completely removes any referance point, so it too, becomes pointless.

So what have learned from all this.

1) this is a trial and error thing, simple as that
2) its very easy to get "close" to what you "think" you want to accomplish
3) 2 oz bottles of paint dont last very long
4) the girls at the craft store are really nice, even thought they must think I am insane for coming there every day
5) I am definately suffering from some sort of obsessive compulsive disorder.


So, thats that. I will let my half screen cure for a few days and see if I still like it as much as I did yesterday. If so, I will share it. If not, then back to the basement.

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post #97 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

brian mc,

i think the most cost effective / per performance option for someone who's doesn't have experience painting with a mirror is the backside UPW gloss option. if you are spraying and you'd like a little more gain... then use either the pearl or the silver metallic on the backside instead.

pb_maxxx or mm,

First post. I've been reading in the DYI screen section for a couple of weeks. I will be getting a Pan AE700 for the family for Christmas. The theater will be in the downstairs familyroom with only marginal lighting control so I want decent day time contrast. I want a 16:9 screen about 110 in. wide so getting a mirror into the basement probably won't work. Plexiglass maybe because it bends, but I doubt it. So I am probably left with painting on the wall. For a BFLF screen can I do better than the two coats of UPW gloss by spray painting chrome or silver metallic, followed by a couple of coats of clear to get a mirror effect. If so what do you recommend for the clear; should it be glossy or flat. How much do I lose by not having a real mirror?

Also, and this may be a dumb question, but I know the auto paint people will put paint mixes in spray cans. Would this be an option for BFLF, or do I just need to buy or rent a sprayer?
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post #98 of 514 Old 11-18-2005, 10:27 AM
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Nibley1,

not a dumb question at all. if you are going to be using your wall you defintely need to get to work on sanding it and getting it as smooth as you can.

two coats of UPW gloss should work great. a silver or metallic basecoat followed by a clear should work even better. i happen to like the Minwax polyurethanes. on the basecoat you'll want to use gloss.

i think mm, biglyle, and myself would all say that spraying will get the best results. however, with bflf, big lyles mix, and maxxmudd... they can all be easily rolled and still get great results. just use a 1/4" semi-smooth nap roller (non-foam). don't overload your roller. don't dry roll. and let each coat have plenty of time to dry. that way the wetness of these new paint mixes will allow it to dry in a rather smooth, non orange peel fashion.

just take a look at big lyles results with rolling. incredible. so believe me, these new silver and pearl metalllics are much easier to work with then that old behr faux silver metallic and wop of the past.
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post #99 of 514 Old 11-19-2005, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer View Post

So it would seem RGB is flawed, when utilizing pigments. See this article:

http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfadd/1160/Ch23RR/Sub.html

It has to do with Color Subtraction--Red pigment reflects red and absorbs green and blue. Blue pigment reflects blue and absorbs red and green. Green pigment reflects green and absorbs red and blue. Add these together and you absorb all colors, leaving murky brown or black.

Here's a thought, then. What about dots of each color, where each color is its own space, and therefore reflects that particular color, but a dot next to it will reflect another color. Make these dots small enough, and your eye should be able to combine the reflections of the colors from each particular dot.

A as far as I know the only way this might be practical for DIY is through the use of silk screening. Silk screening can produce some very detailed printing. The only silk screening I have experience with I used during the manufacture of printed circuit board etching patterns. We are talking very thin lines and small circles or squares.

Silk screening can be precise, which brings up the following questions;

1. How much tolerance for separation between the RGB do we have when producing the alternating pattern?
2. What would be the best geometery a circle or a square?
3. So basically how perfect should the RGB color grid be?
4. Should there be a silver/pearl base coat to print the RGB on?
5. Should there be a printed RGB base to spray paint translucent silver/pearl over?

Barring the matrix of colors becoming extremely small it seems possible to me to silk screen the RGB pattern DIY. While it would be pains taking it could be produced on a 4' x 8' substrate and have a degree of precision.

If you are not familiar with the art form here is link with basics.

http://www.reuels.com/reuels/page512.html
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post #100 of 514 Old 11-19-2005, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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If you work your way back through the thread, I had suggested using a screen to lay each pigment, shift the template over and repeat. The reason I abandoned the idea is, I did not think you could use a small enough template and then get the separate pigment dots effectively..but silkscreening seems a neat avenue to explore...

Where can I locally pickup a large silkscreen medium? I would try this on a test panel

It would seem you could use slightly larger "pixels" and at an average distance they would blend...

I am still perfecting the "mix" version... and anticipating Biglyle's findings shortly.


TJ
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post #101 of 514 Old 11-19-2005, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehotaone View Post

If you work your way back through the thread, I had suggested using a screen to lay each pigment, shift the template over and repeat. The reason I abandoned the idea is, I did not think you could use a small enough template and then get the separate pigment dots effectively..but silkscreening seems a neat avenue to explore...

Where can I locally pickup a large silkscreen medium? I would try this on a test panel

It would seem you could use slightly larger "pixels" and at an average distance they would blend...

I am still perfecting the "mix" version... and anticipating Biglyle's findings shortly.


TJ

Silk screen kits are sold at Art Supply houses. These come in smaller sizes ( than I would imagine we would require). However the mesh material can be had off line and then it is just a matter of building a frame to stretch the fabric over. The small kits would be a handy method to test the theory on a smaller scale.
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post #102 of 514 Old 11-19-2005, 10:21 PM
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I don't know if anyone has really gone far with the idea of having dots of the three colors printed on the screen--(if so, please pipe in and let us know how far you got...)

But I did a couple of experiments, and have come up with something interesting.

I spent a little time yesterday using the Windows Paint tool on my computer, and laid out square dots upon dots upon dots. Basically, I started with a red dot, then blue, then green, then started over all the way down a row (probably about 12 dots total. I then copied, pasted, copied, pasted, etc. until the whole page was filled with dots (each color dot in each row was displaced by one thereby giving diagonals of each color). I did two samples, one with a dot density of about 72 dots per inch, and another that is about 12 dots per inch. I then printed a full page of each one using my Canon Pixma i4000 printer on Canon Photo Paper Plus glossy. First, I put the 12 dots per inch sample on the screen, and noticed that it roughly fit my pixel density on the screen from my rprojector (I use a Benq 6100 SVGA projector), so I didn't think this would give a very good result (and it really didn't).

I then used the 72 dot per inch sample, and I got a very interesting result. In regular light, this full page ended up giving an appearance, at even just a couple of feet from the eye, of a weird grayish color (my wife thought it looked brownish), but upon closer inspection, the colors did seem to separate a bit (I'm not totally positive my printer was able to give me the true colors or if the colors ran into each other a bit--since each dot is just way too small to really see with the naked eye...)

But the image on the screen appeared fairly dark with total light control, but with a lot of ambient light, it seemed to provide some enhancement of the image as compared to my pull-down BOC (matte white). The matte white was washed out, but the sample definitely helped a bit.

This was encouraging enough to want to continue along this path, but a couple of things. One of the biggest drawbacks to this is I don't think I can precisely get the exact three colors printed, which might be why the image wasn't THAT good. I mean, the three colors, RGB, are at particular wavelengths, so I really need to nail those wavelengths. But I am just guessing at the colors from the palette in Paint, and there is no guarantee that the printer even prints those colors accurately. Anyone have any suggestions about this? I would think I would have to match the wavelengths of the projected RGB precisely for this to work.

I will continue to experiment and let people know how it goes. I think I will experiment with some different shades of RGB and try to get a dot density a little less than 72 (perhaps 50 or so?) in case my printed is having difficulty at this level. I'll try to continue to post my results...

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post #103 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 07:50 AM
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""I will continue to experiment and let people know how it goes. I think I will experiment with some different shades of RGB and try to get a dot density a little less than 72 (perhaps 50 or so?) in case my printed is having difficulty at this level. I'll try to continue to post my results...""

Very interesting indeed. I wonder how a matrix of RGB and yellow would do? Since Big lyle mentioned that his mix contains those 4 colors.

I may pursue this also, perhaps a better graphics program would produce a truer color.
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post #104 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 12:14 PM
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The problem I see with any silk screen method is that it becomes a far to complicated ordeal for the average person.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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post #105 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 01:20 PM
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... So after reviewing everyone's comments this last week (thanks PB and biglyle), I went back and reviewed several of the existing 'formulas' that have been posted and threw them into a spreadsheet to normalize and compare quantities of different components. Following the latest RS-MMaxx and the first post in this thread, I ended up with a 'hybrid' mix that, when compared against my temporary UPW Flat screen yielded some really nice results -- much improved black levels, little noticeable impact on whites, and a beautiful 3-d look to the overall picture that was totally absent with the flat white screen. I was so happy with my test panel that I ended up painting my whole screen with it!

Nonetheless, after a few days of enjoying it I noticed in some bright highlights a bit of uneveness in my application -- very subtle, but it turns out my drywall is a bit rippled even after some light sanding, and the paint didn't stick perfectly evenly.

I'm about to start over again, but wanted to share what I used and perhaps see how it compares to the characteristics of biglyle's and others who are working on this.... The overall look of this combination is silvery grey in the bucket, but on the wall its very light creamy white/grey yet yields a much improved image to my eyes. The ambient qualities are there, but they are perhaps not quite to the level that some of the other efforts are showing. I'm curious what is different here. I worked with the pigments and decided to leave them out entirely for now. There is no noticeable color shift or anything in this mix...colors look richer over the UPW.

8oz Minwax Polycrylic Satin
7oz Behr Deep Base
5oz Delta Gleams Pearl
8oz Delta Gleams Silver Metallic
3oz Behr UPW Flat

I rolled two coats using a RollerFoam 6" roller over a couple coats of Behr UPW Flat Enamel.

The mix is perhaps ever so slightly a bit too slick, so next time I'm going to reduce the polycrylic a bit, but not sure what to do with the silver and UPW, etc to make the mix a bit deeper 'grey/silver' looking without making it too sparkly. At present when dry its a lot whiter looking than biglyle's panels appear. Seems like a good starting point for a dimmer projector. I've got a AE900 and I think I have some headroom to go a bit darker grey. Its 90% of what I was after already, so it doesn't need much adjustment for my purposes. I think its my rolling technique at fault right now -- maybe I'll ditch the rollerfoam for the 1/4" nap mentioned earlier.

Thoughts? I'd appreciate the feedback. This is so much fun -- I feel like a mad scientist Feel free to PM me if anyone wants to discuss 'offline' -- I'm eager to finalize something for thanksgiving viewing!!!
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post #106 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 01:41 PM
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"and a beautiful 3-d look to the overall picture that was totally absent with the flat white screen."

IMO this is the biggest benifit of what these new mixes offer. Yes, some ambient light help is great too, but what this does to the percieved depth of the image is astounding. I really cant believe what I see when I view these mixes next to my previous MMUD screen. The image is so much more realistic looking that it must be seen to be fully appreciated.

These are great times for DIY'ers.

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post #107 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

The problem I see with any silk screen method is that it becomes a far to complicated ordeal for the average person.

Agreed. However to test the concept of discrete colors as opposed to mixing it might be useful.
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post #108 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

"and a beautiful 3-d look to the overall picture that was totally absent with the flat white screen."

IMO this is the biggest benifit of what these new mixes offer. Yes, some ambient light help is great too, but what this does to the percieved depth of the image is astounding. I really cant believe what I see when I view these mixes next to my previous MMUD screen. The image is so much more realistic looking that it must be seen to be fully appreciated.

These are great times for DIY'ers.


Definitely -- I was blown away by the difference. Are you using anything particular for a basecoat? I'm tempted to try a silver basecoat with this over it, as opposed to my tests on top of UPW..
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post #109 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrawner View Post

..

. I worked with the pigments and decided to leave them out entirely for now. There is no noticeable color shift or anything in this mix...colors look richer over the UPW.

8oz Minwax Polycrylic Satin
7oz Behr Deep Base
5oz Delta Gleams Pearl
8oz Delta Gleams Silver Metallic
3oz Behr UPW Flat

)

Thinking back over a year ago when these types of paint mixes were first proposed I have realized that;

4 of the items have been mainstays for this type of mix varying mostly by ratios.

What has changed is the brand of Pearl and Silver Metallic and the addition of the Minxwax as a suspension agent for the metallics. These three changes seem to have made the most significant gains in the end product.

MM and PB_Maxxx have added the use of pigments and apparently have discovered a way to make them have an affect on the ambient light tolerance using HVLP sparying to obtain a more controlled and uniform thickness. If extreme ambient light tolerance is not required then my guess is that neither are the RGB pigments.

Then we come to whether we need a reflective substrate, which seems to be a given. How reflective is the next question. I will use the $ rating system.

1. UPW $
2. Silver Metallic or Pearl $$
3. Acrylic Sheet painted Silver Metallic $$
4. Acrylic Sheet Mirror $$$$---- depending on how big and where purchased.
5. Mirror $$ or $$$$$---- depending on how big and where purchased.

Some where is a happy medium that would please most. I think that is where I will end up for my next screen.
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post #110 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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BigLyle,

How's about letting us in on the fun What cha' got for the latest mix to try? Most of us have all the basic ingredients, we won't complain about a test panel waste if we/you improve on it?
Your SS do look tempting.....


Thanks

TJ
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post #111 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richum View Post

Thinking back over a year ago when these types of paint mixes were first proposed I have realized that;

4 of the items have been mainstays for this type of mix varying mostly by ratios.

What has changed is the brand of Pearl and Silver Metallic and the addition of the Minxwax as a suspension agent for the metallics. These three changes seem to have made the most significant gains in the end product.
.


Agreed. When I started mixing this time around I wanted to leave out the UPW completely, as I concluded that in the quantities used in earlier efforts it is what hides the real properties of these other paints. Removing the UPW from the mix above it becomes extremely translucent when rolled on a panel -- even though in the bucket it looks really silver/grey. It would seem then that carefully modulating the upw--thinking of it as another 'pigment' (titanium dioxide) instead of a base for the mix along with the other possible colors will get us all the way there -- when applied on top of the right base....

Since the mirror works so well then perhaps its time to go back to a silvery basecoat with this translucent topcoat.
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post #112 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrawner View Post

Agreed. When I started mixing this time around I wanted to leave out the UPW completely, as I concluded that in the quantities used in earlier efforts it is what hides the real properties of these other paints. Removing the UPW from the mix above it becomes extremely translucent when rolled on a panel -- even though in the bucket it looks really silver/grey. It would seem then that carefully modulating the upw--thinking of it as another 'pigment' (titanium dioxide) instead of a base for the mix along with the other possible colors will get us all the way there -- when applied on top of the right base....

Since the mirror works so well then perhaps its time to go back to a silvery basecoat with this translucent topcoat.

Your present mix;

8oz Minwax Polycrylic Satin
7oz Behr Deep Base
5oz Delta Gleams Pearl
8oz Delta Gleams Silver Metallic
3oz Behr UPW Flat

What about?

8oz Minwax Polycrylic Satin
7oz Behr Deep Base
8oz Delta Gleams Pearl (plenty of white Ti in this)
8oz Delta Gleams Silver Metallic

Over a Silver metallic base coat on the opposite side of the thinnest acrylic sheet available or perhaps acrylic mirror.

May be that some one has tried this already and had hotspotting or sparkles?
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post #113 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 06:24 PM
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I printed RGB dots in a color matrix (and actually included a white dot as well, so the pattern was RGBWRGBW, etc.) I had, I would say, about 40-50 dots per inch. I printed four full pages and taped them together into a rectangular shape. (I printed the patterns on glossy photo paper). I project from a Benq 6100, but the ambient light in the room today was extreme. I had all canned lights on full, two spotlights (aimed away from the screen to our fireplace) and all window shades open (except directly behind the screen). My screen in a diy roll-down BOC--white matte.

Anyway, here are some very preliminary results:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...4/ppuser/22516


http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...2/ppuser/22516 (This one shows what kind of ambient light the screen was dealing with, as you can see the canned light in the ceiling right above the screen).



http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...g/ppuser/22516 (This shows off axis viewing--but in this one, I don't think I had the spotlights on, and perhaps the canned lighting was not at full...)



So I think this approach might have some merit--but I'm not sure if the image is enhanced because of the color matrix, or because the sheet was merely darker than my white BOC screen. I'll try to print some gray sheets about the same tone to see if the colored dots really are contributing.

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post #114 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer View Post

I printed RGB dots in a color matrix (and actually included a white dot as well, so the pattern was RGBWRGBW, etc.) I had, I would say, about 40-50 dots per inch. I printed four full pages and taped them together into a rectangular shape. (I printed the patterns on glossy photo paper). I project from a Benq 6100, but the ambient light in the room today was extreme. I had all canned lights on full, two spotlights (aimed away from the screen to our fireplace) and all window shades open (except directly behind the screen). My screen in a diy roll-down BOC--white matte.
.

Very interesting! nice work. Next thing you know someone will release a .tiff that we just take to Kinkos for printing on a wide carriage printer! Forget this paint stuff. :-)

Hows the sheen on the glossy paper? I've got a pixma 8500 that has red and green ink that might be good for a test. I've got some sheets of a nice satin paper from red river paper that might be a good balance of sheen.. Can you share the matrix?
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post #115 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Richum View Post


What about?

8oz Minwax Polycrylic Satin
7oz Behr Deep Base
8oz Delta Gleams Pearl (plenty of white Ti in this)
8oz Delta Gleams Silver Metallic

Over a Silver metallic base coat on the opposite side of the thinnest acrylic sheet available or perhaps acrylic mirror.

May be that some one has tried this already and had hotspotting or sparkles?

Interesting -- the pearl is still farily translucent by itself, but it might be white enough to replace more of the upw. I'm going to start on a couple test panels with something like this over different basecoats. I'll see what can be done without the acrylic first, although in the end to get a smooth screen I may have to go that route. I'm afraid I'm not going to get my wall flat enough to get rid of all the streaks.
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post #116 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 08:33 PM
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I used Photobucket to host this image, and I think it resized it to 512 kb, when in reality it is about 1.5 Mb.

But here ya go. You could probably take this, pull it into Paint, or any other program, and just copy and past the pattern to fit a full-size page.

Hope this works...

Oh, incidentally, I played around with the colors a bit in paint, and used the pure red, green and blue (Red=255, 0, 0; Green= 0, 255, 0; and Blue=0, 0, 255)

I am still going to play around with this--but I did actually try this and another thought I had, which was using the CMY colors. That didn't give me as good results as the RGB and W. (I originally used just RGB without the extra white dot, and it looked really muddy. I may play around with the amount of white to see if that demonstrably changes anything...)

(Edited to remove faulty image...)

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post #117 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 08:37 PM
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Whoops--sorry, that's not right. I just did a test to pull it into Paint, and it gave me a gray scale image back, not the color one. Hold on, I will try to find a better way...

EDIT

OK--I have it saved on my Yahoo briefcase in a public folder called "Ambient Screen", which can be accessed here:

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/etienne_72772

Let me know if it works...

EDIT

ARGGGHHH. Yahoo no longer allows public sharing of files. But I can e-mail it out to anyone who wants it. Just send me a pm with your e-mail address, and I will send it out to you...

Sorry this is such a pain...

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post #118 of 514 Old 11-20-2005, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrawner View Post

Hows the sheen on the glossy paper? I've got a pixma 8500 that has red and green ink that might be good for a test. I've got some sheets of a nice satin paper from red river paper that might be a good balance of sheen.. Can you share the matrix?

And to answer your question about the sheen--the glossy photo paper hotspots like mad, as you might imagine. I think I have some matte photo paper in my basement that I will look for tonight and see if that works better. Thought perhaps the sheen helps, and if diffused, it may provide an enhancement to the image (not unlike the light fusion concept...)

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post #119 of 514 Old 11-21-2005, 05:48 AM
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Steve,

Your pictures seem to demonstrate that a discrete RGB approach will enchance.

It has me thinking that if one could produce it with the degree of accuracy required and place it on the back side of thin acrylic sheet and then create a translucent rolled or sprayed front side coating you may have a strong performer in both low and moderate to high ambient light.

Good work in my opinion.
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post #120 of 514 Old 11-21-2005, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer View Post


I'm not sure if the image is enhanced because of the color matrix, or because the sheet was merely darker than my white BOC screen. I'll try to print some gray sheets about the same tone to see if the colored dots really are contributing.

Steve,

From what I can see, and knowing the color pallete of the Incredibles, I'd venture to say the hue (darkness of your sample.) is doing all the work. The colors look decidedly darker and less luminous than they should. A larger sample (...or several sheets aligned in a larger square "to one side of center"...) would be more indicative because it would show off the transition points between more colors and shades of Grey.

With the BFLF approach, we've tried to maintain every bit of the original gain we could while increasing CR as well as ambient light rejection. It's all necessary to achieve something that does not exhibit a serious failing in one direction or another. To date, biglyle has come decidely close through his alternative approach.

Even so, yours is also an interesting approach, and might herald in a true "roll up/down' example of the Black Screen concept, taking it out of the Fixed screen genre. I'm sure everyone is anxious to see what happens next. I know I am.

Keep it up! .and good hunting!

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"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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