Ambient Light screen development thread.. - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-28-2005, 07:40 PM
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TBL Screen

The Big Lyle.
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Old 11-28-2005, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

For anyone still interested, here is my finished mix in 2 version, one for light controlled rooms, and one for ambient light. Let me know if they work for you.

ambient mix

1/2 cup minwax varnish (satin)
1/2 cup deep base
1/2 cup UPW
1/2 cup behr WOP or delta Pearl
1/2 cup Delta Silver Metallic
1/4 cup Folk Art Sterling silver Metallic
1/4 cup Folk Art metallic aluminum
15 drops Folk art bright red metallic
15 drops delta bright red - transparent
6 drops delta phalo green - transparent
3 drops delta phalo blue - transparent
3 drops flok art metallic amethyst
15 drops folk art metallic inca gold
15 drops delta yellow - transparent


Light controlled room mix

1/2 cup minwax varnish (satin)
1/2 cup deep base
1/2 cup UPW
1/2 cup behr WOP or delta Pearl
1/2 cup Delta Silver Metallic
1/8 cup Folk Art Sterling silver Metallic
10 drops Folk art bright red metallic
10 drops delta bright red - transparent
4 drops delta phalo green - transparent
2 drops delta phalo blue - transparent
2 drops flok art metallic amethyst
10 drops folk art metallic inca gold
10 drops delta yellow - transparent

Be very careful when adding the drops of the colors so as to not get big blobs, the metallic colors are quite thick, so slowly let the drops fall and keep count. This will give a very neutral color grey. The darkness of the screen can be adjusted by adding more or less of the darker "silvers" (aluminum and the sterling)
I have done all my testing using an Optoma H31 with "rolled on" screens. I have no doubt that this would show even better results when sprayed, especially if sprayed on a very shiney surface such as a mirror (props to MMAN).

Good luck

Couple of questions here:

What exactly is the Minwax varnish? I went to Home Depot, and couldn't find a can that said, simply, varnish--they are all polyurethanes. I assume, since this is a water-based formula, that I should be looking for a water-based varnish, but I am having trouble locating it...

Also, I found deep base at HD, but it is called "Bathroom and Kitchen" deep base, satin. Is this the right stuff?

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Old 11-28-2005, 08:40 PM
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The right info helps.

I know of nowhere where "varnish" has ever been advocated.

It's called MinWax Polycryllic "Water based' Polyurethane.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 11-28-2005, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer View Post

Couple of questions here:

What exactly is the Minwax varnish? I went to Home Depot, and couldn't find a can that said, simply, varnish--they are all polyurethanes. I assume, since this is a water-based formula, that I should be looking for a water-based varnish, but I am having trouble locating it...

Also, I found deep base at HD, but it is called "Bathroom and Kitchen" deep base, satin. Is this the right stuff?

Steve,

Minwax Polycrylic
Water-Based
Clear Satin (Bluish Green can)

Behr Premium Plus (Brown/White can)
Deep Base
No.1300

Behr Premium Plus (Olive/White can)
Interior Flat Enamel
Ultra Pure White
No.1850

These are what I am using. I believe these to be correct.
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Old 11-28-2005, 09:00 PM
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richum,

you are absolutely correct. substitutes to those components will only result in less than desirable results.
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Old 11-29-2005, 01:09 AM
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...MAY result in less than desirable results. Ya never know.

That last one in the original was

Behr Premium Plus ( Brown/White can )
Exterior Flat
Ultra Pure White
No 4050


Hey Biglyle, how about Big Chill......sort of chills the ambience, well sounds a little dark, maybe not.



The biglyle formula has only half the upw portion that the rs_maxxmmud ( where did that rs come from again...initials? ) but is given a good dose of color. So more clear medium and more metallic and pearl with just the right colors is the ambient killer. It will be interesting to see the components of the black flame and if it is in similar proportions. Its pretty long odds that it would be close. So many combos.
The RS-mmmaxxmud is coming across as a great solution with little to no issues in all conditions. That black flame is a huge leap. And as far as leaps, mississippiman not only picks up a roller again, but a foam one at that, who would of thunk. All the effort, money and time commited by all you people over the last few months to screen development and to this forum is appreciated big time.

biglyle, you leaned to the red side in your formula....this was an optima thing?

rehashing...

Biglyles formula

ambient mix

1/2 cup UPW

1/2 cup minwax varnish (satin)
1/2 cup deep base

1/2 cup behr WOP or delta Pearl
1/2 cup Delta Silver Metallic

1/4 cup Folk Art Sterling silver Metallic
1/4 cup Folk Art metallic aluminum

15 drops Folk art bright red metallic
3 drops flok art metallic amethyst
15 drops folk art metallic inca gold

15 drops delta bright red - transparent
15 drops delta yellow - transparent
6 drops delta phalo green - transparent
3 drops delta phalo blue - transparent

Light controlled room mix

1/2 cup UPW

1/2 cup minwax varnish (satin)
1/2 cup deep base

1/2 cup behr WOP or delta Pearl
1/2 cup Delta Silver Metallic

1/8 cup Folk Art Sterling silver Metallic

10 drops Folk art bright red metallic
10 drops folk art metallic inca gold
2 drops flok art metallic amethyst

10 drops delta bright red - transparent
10 drops delta yellow - transparent
4 drops delta phalo green - transparent
2 drops delta phalo blue - transparent


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light situations)

1 QT - Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Exterior (HD)

20 oz. Minwax Polycrylic Satin Finish (HD)
16 oz. Behr Deep Base Flat Exterior (HD)

3 (8oz) bottles - Delta Ceramcoat Metallic Silver #02603 (Michaels)
2 (8oz) bottles - Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601 (Michaels)

12 oz. Distilled Water

RS-MaxxMudd LL (for lower lumen PJ's, and for completely controlled lighting)

1 QT - Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Exterior (HD)

20 oz. Minwax Polycrylic Satin Finish (HD)
16 oz - Behr Deep Base Flat Exterior (HD)

2 (8oz) bottles - Delta Ceramcoat Metallic Silver #02603 (Michaels)
4 (8oz) bottles Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601 (Michaels)

12 oz. Distilled Water


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canadian Gray

1 part flat white

8 parts Auto Air Latex Aluminum
4 parts WOP


------------------------------------------------------------------------

McGuire's ( to make a grey )

red * .29
green * .60 ( most luminous color, guess not the best choice for theatre walls!!doh )
blue *.11

incandescent light composition

red .49 ( cyan top coat would least be affected by lamp lighting )
green .33
blue .18

But dang that black flame light fusion looks good. Maybe going to have to have a diy shootout one day...
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:01 AM
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What size of a screen can one attain from any of these formulas if used as written?

Rolling is preferred.


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Big Screen/Small Space! My 13x12 Bedroom HT

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Old 11-29-2005, 03:08 AM
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Most will do any screen size up to 140" diagonal and beyond

Or 2-3 smaller screens. Rolling it own is doable, with only one's skill at rolling being the only unknown element.

BTW The "RS" in RS-MMMaxxxMud stands for "Radiant Silver".

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Old 11-29-2005, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ender611 View Post

Canadian Gray

1 part flat white

8 parts Auto Air Latex Aluminum
4 parts WOP

Could someone please give a little more detail on the 'flat white' part? I know the WOP is a specific Behr paint (and the Auto Air one is obvious) - is the flat white paint a specific brand as well?

Anyone know the cheapest way to ship paint to the UK?

Thanks
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Old 11-29-2005, 05:21 AM
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" The right info helps.
I know of nowhere where "varnish" has ever been advocated.
It's called MinWax Polycryllic "Water based' Polyurethane."

Water based polyurethane is commonly known to people in the painting industry as LATEX VARNISH. So yes, the right info helps.


"biglyle, you leaned to the red side in your formula....this was an optima thing?"

It is a very neutral grey, it doesnt lean to red at all.

"Behr Premium Plus (Olive/White can)
Interior Flat Enamel
Ultra Pure White
No.1850"

I use the behr UPW interior flat latex 1050

"you are absolutely correct. substitutes to those components will only result in less than desirable results"

Or may create new and better results.

Like I said earlier, I really dont think these new mixes are anywhere near what can be done. I honestly believe that the right combo of products can blow away my mix and the BFLF mix, because what we see now is good, but very far from perfect.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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Old 11-29-2005, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post


Like I said earlier, I really dont think these new mixes are anywhere near what can be done. I honestly believe that the right combo of products can blow away my mix and the BFLF mix, because what we see now is good, but very far from perfect.

Your entitled to your opinion on the subject, but it ignores the real fact that until a short while ago, the results that are up for viewing now were considered a Pipe Dream and a standing Joke of a Challenge to us all by the Boys over in Screens.

We'll have to see about the "Blowing Away" business, but I'm fairly certain if it happens, it will be based around the same components and ideals already proven to work where nothing else has ever come nearly as close using mere paint. And I'm betting that any one of the current variations pb_Maxxx, Pyrometman, and myself are busy conjuring up based on BFLF will be in the running. We don't rest on our laurels in this business, (er....DIY, sorry! )

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 11-29-2005, 09:53 AM
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Naming is all good fun, but really can be confusing to the newbies (throw me in with that lot). So, with my until-now-unused degree in advertising, I propose a name for Big Lyle's ambient mix that is short, catchy, memorable and relevant:

BLAM!

(...hoping that there will eventually be a mix worthy of the name Big Lyle's Ambient Cinema Kreation...)
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Old 11-29-2005, 11:15 AM
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Marc G, now those are good names!

Meow.
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:00 PM
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One more thing, with trying to formulate BLAM! (See, I am using it already), I am having trouble finding Delta Phthalo green. I went to three different stores in my area (Wal-Mart, Joanne's and Michael's), and not one had it. Any suggestions for a replacement for this?

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Old 11-29-2005, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer View Post

One more thing, with trying to formulate BLAM! (See, I am using it already), I am having trouble finding Delta Phthalo green. I went to three different stores in my area (Wal-Mart, Joanne's and Michael's), and not one had it. Any suggestions for a replacement for this?

Steve,
I had the same problem. I bought the other Delta transparent green they had, 2421 Jubilee Green Transparent. It's a little lighter shade, but it's all they had. I haven't mixed it yet, however. Joann.com lists it, but I haven't made it to a store yet.

http://www.joann.com/catalog.jhtml?C...d=FRGL20051021

Dick Blick also lists it as a "Golden Airbrush Colors" brand.

Patrick

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Old 11-29-2005, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer View Post

One more thing, with trying to formulate BLAM! (See, I am using it already), I am having trouble finding Delta Phthalo green. I went to three different stores in my area (Wal-Mart, Joanne's and Michael's), and not one had it. Any suggestions for a replacement for this?

Steve,

I ran into the same issue. I could not find the Delta brand phthalo green. So here is what I did.

I went to a local art supply and bought Golden Fulid Acrylics both the Phtalo Green (blue shade) and (yellow shade).

One problem, apparently Golden and other top line artist paint manufactuerers distingiush between shades of phthalo, where as firms like Delta are not so precise (according to a store employee). So which one to buy?

Pyrometman, uses the Phthalo Green ( blue shade) based on his converstion with a Golden Paint's engineer. So my guess is blue shade.

The issue that will then come up is biglyles specs say phtalo green -transparent.

I talked to one of the employees who does a lot of airbrush work and he informed me that I could thin the Golden Acrylics down to transparent by adding 25% water, however he recommended that I use the Golden Airbrush Medium for thinning which is 1:1 dilution. I bought that and will use it as it can thin the paste forms of as well as fluid forms.

It turns out to be a $10 solution to a $1 problem however.

Other than that, its on-line, wait and pay $5 shipping on $1 bottle of paint, or keep burning that precious gasoline.
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:55 PM
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anyone with good screenshots yet?
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Old 11-29-2005, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View Post

anyone with good screenshots yet?

I plan to make up some panels tonight of the various concoctions --both with a white substrate and mirror (and also have an idea for a roll-down application). Don't know if I will be able to roll the material on the mirrors well (as I don't have an HVLP), but I probably will thin the paint down quite a bit and work on applying very thin layers by roller (so as not to overcoat the samples and lose the light fusion affect).

I will try to get this done tonight (depending on when my kids go to bed) and take some pictures.

Also, with respect to Phthalo green--There is a Hobby Lobby in town that I just saw sells Delta products (if you go to the Delta website, you can find stores in your area that sell the Delta paints). I'll see if I can pick up the Phthalo green there.

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Old 11-29-2005, 04:26 PM
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Steve,
I got Phthalo Green and Phthalo Blue both at Dick Blick in Wheaton. There are other stores in Chicagoland. The green looks pretty teal, so I'll probably mix it with the much lighter green I already have. Geez, it's only six drops already...

The Hobby Lobby in Batavia didn't have the Delta version, and didn't even have a space on the shelf for it.

Patrick

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Old 11-29-2005, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer View Post

I plan to make up some panels tonight of the various concoctions --both with a white substrate and mirror (and also have an idea for a roll-down application). Don't know if I will be able to roll the material on the mirrors well (as I don't have an HVLP), but I probably will thin the paint down quite a bit and work on applying very thin layers by roller (so as not to overcoat the samples and lose the light fusion affect).

I will try to get this done tonight (depending on when my kids go to bed) and take some pictures.

Also, with respect to Phthalo green--There is a Hobby Lobby in town that I just saw sells Delta products (if you go to the Delta website, you can find stores in your area that sell the Delta paints). I'll see if I can pick up the Phthalo green there.

1. MM posted comments in the Effort Continues that he successfully rolled his mix by using a high density foam roller.

You may have results on the mirror that way.

2. I went to two Hobby Lobbys and could not find Phthalo Green, you may different results.

I have a JoAnns close by and it may be there as someone else pointed out earlier.

I plan to drop by there tomorrow, as I want to stick to big lyles formula as much as is possible.
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Old 11-29-2005, 05:57 PM
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I've attached a couple more shots from my screen, demonstrating the performance in controlled lighting vs. mild-moderate ambient light -- the 'can' light shining down in front of the screen. The square in the middle is UPW-Flat (white). I tried to tune the exposure to closely match what I see, though if anything I erred toward the side of underexposure a tad. (in other words, it looks a bit brighter in person!)

Visually, in controlled lighting the image is slightly darker than the UPW panel---but its not a bad thing--black levels are fantastic. I'm shooting with a Panny ae900 on a 96" wall.

A couple caveats about my setup -- 1) I rolled 3 coats over a sanded down 'prior effort' of one of my test mixes. Thus I was rolling over a similar greyish mixture, as opposed to pure UPW or UPW-Gloss that has been recommended. I'm certain my screen came out a slight bit darker than it would have should you paint over white. I would go with painting over white. Looking at my screen, it looks very grey -- similar in grey level as the infamous 'silverscreen' paint, but a warmer grey than silverscreen.

2) I substituted Jubilee Green for the Pthalo Green which wasn't available. Did it make much difference? Personally I doubt it, as the difference with all the pigments added is subtle anyway.

I rolled using 1/4" nap roller. I tried other mixes using 6" rollerfoam (high density foam roller) and didn't get as good of a result. I like rollerfoam, and perhaps on a mirror it would roll more evenly.
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Old 11-29-2005, 05:59 PM
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Two more
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Old 11-30-2005, 08:19 AM
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I want to use this mixture on a DIY projector. The light output is not quite as much as a commercial projector. Should I consider this when using BigLyle's mixture? I am looking for some gain if possible. I noticed other mixes that generally say they are not for low-lumen projectors.
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Old 11-30-2005, 08:33 AM
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I kind of screwed up my formula a little bit--it can be salvaged, but I forgot to pick up, what I think is, a key ingredient--the Delta metallic silver, which is a large portion of the mix. I doubled the amount of Sterling silver, but have a hunch that the Delta metallic silver imparts a much darker grey to the formula. I rolled a couple of samples anyway to see what would happen to the image. What I found was a slight to moderate increase in ambient viewing, but a much improved picture with lights out. The substrate I used is a very thick white vinyl material (I would describe it as semi-glossy) that I picked up from Joanne's. I plan to use this for a DIY roll-down. The sample that I painted (about 1.5'x1.5') rolled up nice and tight without any problems with the paint, so would most likely work with a DIY application.

One aspect I was really impressed with--although the screen appears as a grey color, the whites really stand out in this formulation (although there appears to be a slight shift to blue in the pictures, especially in Nemo's stripes).

(Incidentally, I also rolled a 12"x12" mirror with the stuff, and was not impressed--I'm sure others will most likely point out that I probably did it wrong, and did not achieve the light fusion effect, but the image was a bit softer than the other vinyl sample I did, and also did not seem to improve the ambient light properties as much compared to the vinyl sample).

SO--I plan to pick up some Delta metallic silver tonight and finish the formula, and see what I get. It may be that I want to darken the formula even more. Any suggestions on what would allow me to do that?

Despite the incompleteness of the formula, I did take some pictures:

This shows the screen, with the vinyl sample center-right, and the mirror sample propped up on the cabinet--taken zoomed out to show the canned lighting.


This shows a closer-up view


Even closer (You can really see where the formulation was painted onto the substrate in this one--there is about an inch around the vinyl that is not painted:


This one is another close up, with the overhead light off, and only some light coming in from the side:



(One thing I thought as I looked through the pictures--the mirror itself had to be propped up, so it in ever-so-slightly angled toward the canned lighting (thereby reflecting more light back from the canned lighting--not to mention it is directly below the canned lighting, as opposed to the vinyl), so that may explain the ambient lighting differences between the mirror and the vinyl. But I still think the mirror picture looks softer than the vinyl picture)

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Old 11-30-2005, 09:49 AM
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Steve Scherrer,

i'm not so sure that darker is the key. in fact, the delta silver metallic is both less metallic and lighter in color than the folk art sterling silver. your vinyl sample should look good as a full screen.

-maxx
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett View Post

Steve,
I got Phthalo Green and Phthalo Blue both at Dick Blick in Wheaton. There are other stores in Chicagoland. The green looks pretty teal, so I'll probably mix it with the much lighter green I already have. Geez, it's only six drops already...

The Hobby Lobby in Batavia didn't have the Delta version, and didn't even have a space on the shelf for it.

Patrick

At the risk of going OT,

Am i the only one who find it impossible to say "phthalo green" without slipping into a Bob Ross voice???
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:13 AM
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Steve...

Great pictures!! That white vinyl you got from JoAnn's, is it the stuff on the roll similar the the table cloth material?! Would BO cloth be just as good in this instance or were you looking for a 'glossier' white and decided on the vinyl?!

Sean

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Old 11-30-2005, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MaximAvs View Post

Steve...

Great pictures!! That white vinyl you got from JoAnn's, is it the stuff on the roll similar the the table cloth material?! Would BO cloth be just as good in this instance or were you looking for a 'glossier' white and decided on the vinyl?!

Sean

Yes, I actually wanted a glossier material. In addition, I wasn't sure how the BOC would take the paint--I would imagine it would suck it up a bit. With the vinyl, the paint just sits on top of the material. And adhesion is pretty good, but I haven't done any scratch tests yet to see how easily (if at all) the paint comes off.

The vinyl material is very soft and actually pretty thick (it has kind of a dense backing to it, and seems to sit fairly heavy)--so I thought it would be pretty good, since I am going with a roll-down application, to minimize waves. It certainly has no wrinkles. I am more pleased with it than the BOC I am currently using, especially with the BLAM! coating.

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Old 11-30-2005, 11:03 AM
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Steve...

A few years ago, I worked for an automotive paint supplier. When paint shops were going to be painting vinyl, we would include a flex additive to add to their paint mix. It allows the paint to flex under movement and temperature.

If your painting vinyl and rolling the screen up and down, you might want to add some to your mix.

I can't remember the actual name of the stuff but several manufacturers make it. You might ask at a reputable paint store!!

Just thought I'd throw that in.

Sean

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Old 11-30-2005, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by emdawgz1 View Post

At the risk of going OT,

Am i the only one who find it impossible to say "phthalo green" without slipping into a Bob Ross voice???


So just how do you pronounce "phthalo" anyway?

Could someone spell it out phonetically please? I always feel a little out of place in the arts and crafts stores as it is and I don't want to look like a complete rube by butchering the pronunciation when asking a clerk for it. Thanks.
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