Ambient Light screen development thread.. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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In response to all the posts of the past few days, I am creating a new thread that will be an area for the advancement of a publicly found formula that has a lot of potential but is not perfect:

Here it is:
7.5 floz Minwax Polycrylic Satin
7.5 floz Behr Deep Base 1300
1.75 floz Red Oxide - (Delta)
1.0 floz Phthalo Green Blue Shade (Delta)
.5 floz Phthalo Blue Green Shade (Winsor&Newton)
3.00 floz Delta Ceramcoat Pearl Finish
3.00 floz Delta Ceramcoat Silver Metallic
1.5 floz Behr UPW
6.00 floz Water (to thin the mix)


Suggestions of the author before the formula went "dark"
"basically i'm looking at doing 3 things...
1) the extra base and polycrylic will give the mix some added transparency and allow the silver fabric in the LF screen to enhance the brightness.
2) the extra base and addition of the UPW will nuetralize hotspotting and give the whites some added push.
3) the extra mica from the SM and Pearl should give the mix some add gain properties as well."

This formula has not been finalized and was/is a work in progress as of a week ago...

For the ones with the time and spirit do some research at:
http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index...ic=2762&st=180

To get up to speed with what this idea hopes to acheive.


This is not an area for any more conversation on how we arrived here.

It is simply to get back to the root of the forums objective and possibly create an amazing product from the collective of smart, creative people that frequent this forum.

From what I gather this formula should be tried on a highly reflective base, spraygun applied to achieve the desired results. Look up Light Fusion and mirror applications if you are not familiar in these application styles, and if you are.... mylar fabrics and films should be of interest in your test applications.

"I did try the silver fabric / acrylic film idea from WalMart and it will definitely work"

The mixture should be carefully monitored, and by monitoing volume changes when say a true liquid is in a measuring cup, then adding a thicker pigment, the resulting volume difference will result in a more accurate way of measuring the paste style ingredients.

The caveats of the posted mix are:

Not enough "gain"
Blue push

but here is an even older version to see what is achievable




or this 3k commercialy available one



We can get there, but we need dilligent help of the true supporters of these types of efforts...

This may not pan out, but I hope the collective is still up for trying new things and not being afraid to have a few failures in the process

The ingredients can be found at your local art supply houses, the pigments have to be just that, pigment, not color in a solution. Let's try and adhere to this basic formula until it is found where changes are neccessary...


I for one think we can do it together...I will be closely adding tips collected from all the posts that would help this effort, from all the public additions and various contributors.

We can do it
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post #2 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 04:37 PM
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I'm in! Let's see if I cen get to the store before the weekend. I know where I get my latex aluminum they have the other products. Got lots of test panels on hand, 4 to be exact. Let's do 4 different combos. One will be the mix above. Any other suggestions? Less blue, more silver.....er aluminum??

Why is it called black? It is really gray, much like my Canadian Gray.

Meow.
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post #3 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

I'm in! Let's see if I cen get to the store before the weekend. I know where I get my latex aluminum they have the other products. Got lots of test panels on hand, 4 to be exact. Let's do 4 different combos. One will be the mix above. Any other suggestions? Less blue, more silver.....er aluminum??

Why is it called black? It is really gray, much like my Canadian Gray.

Benven,
I'm not sure if I have this wrong or not, but pb_Maxxx posted this somewhere:
Quote:


the mix that was posted on here... was based on an old premise and i promise you... should you decide to use it... ...you will have wasted your time, your money, your gas, and destroyed the boc or mirror you put it on. so go ahead if you'd like to re-canvas your frame with another $60 sheet or destroy you $150 mirror. but don't tell me that you weren't warned ahead of time.

I thought it was in reference to the formula re-posted by tehotaone.

Again, I might be totally misunderstanding his post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...0&&#post6459200

Patrick

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post #4 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Caution would be a good practice at this point.

Benven, that is the spirit!!!! I would try to get small 12x12 panels first, so that we don't waste anything.

I would mix a batch if the formula and shoot it...let's see where it gets us.

If you have proved anything this week it is there is more than one way to achieve a goal.

You made an impressive screen and headed down your own path that competes with the more complicated versions.

Here is my suggestion, as I am waiting on my new spray gun I ordered Monday.

Get a GOOD measurement system down first and start a log ( material,mix,gun pressure, nozzle, dry times), so if we do stumble across something we'll have the data. It will also cut down on waste and repetition.

Spray a smooth hard board surface with your aluminum colored coating, but cut back on your diffusing pigment slightly, make the alum effect stronger with hopes of a good gain underlayer.

We need to establish a "control" screen to mark where that mix was in development and what areas need help, so a one off is in order here.

Next mix the above mixture as close to the formula as poss.

Lighten the opacity with slightly more deep base and "dust coat" that panel until the aluminum barely is visible....test...repeat...

Keep your mix, Mixed you want a very even coat, and at this point I am not sure how this mix will settle...

That was my first plan, I would mix a second batch for the second test a little heavier on the red as the screenies tell a heavy story in the red region on non illuminated sections.

For 4.00 buy a 12x12 mirror at Depot and shoot the "control" mix dust coated until the mirror just barely disappears, thin it slightly more with the deep base for this app and add a touch more of the mica for the LF effect to occur.

I am not professing to have any clue on where we need to go with this, but I have read many threads on it, and have come up with my own solutions in the past many were fond of...there are concepts that are common on all the screen developments as of late...you already have one that does a nice job of exhibiting those....use your instinct as well...

If they all stink...I will be setup by then for the next round.....

Tell me what tip you are using now for your current screen app...?


We will get there....and yes please no info from the other thread...this is a new venture, the bold face red herring is not going to "scare" us off

I would be ecstatic if we can squirt a screen that resembles the pics posted here and in the other thread, this way were are in range and tweak from there.

Hell look how promising the results were way back when....

Again thanks for proving the purists are still here Benven, more to come!


TJ
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post #5 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 05:48 PM
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Maybe the reason for the blue push is that RGB are the light primaries while RBY are the pigment primaries. And maybe RGB was used due to how entrenched RGB is in the video world. But since we're talking pigments, using yellow instead of green would make sense as the yellow would absorb more blue.

C'mon, I know you were all thinking the same thing when PB said RGB was flawed!

Edit: nevermind. I just started reading the Lumenlab thread and see why RGB are the colors used.
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post #6 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 06:10 PM
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This is getting fun. Looks like I will be busy spraying this weekend.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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post #7 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I am truly happy.....truly..... to see early support and get the Ol' itch feeling back...ya know

This is how good things happen...

This is how the forum works for us like a "forum"

This is the way it should be...



TJ
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post #8 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 06:40 PM
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Thinking about this a little bit more. If you mix RGB light sources, what do you get? White. Now, if we take RGB paint sources, what colour do we get? Some shade of gray. Unless I am missing something, all you are going to get is a gray coloured screen that will probably provide slightly inferior performance than my mix.

We're missing something here. This must be done in layers. Translucent. maybe with a bit of reflectivity, layers to allow different wavelengths of light to penetrate the layers or reflect back to the viewer. Maybe candy colours are the trick here. I have tried some candy black in my experimentation, but it was much too dark. Maybe candy RGB layers, one on top of the other on a very reflective substrate, like aluminum or even a chrome paint. That would be a PITA to paint, but what else are we here for??

Does this make sense or am I out to lunch?

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post #9 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Benven,

I was thinking the same like RGBs suspended in a glaze carrier painted in layers, I just figured we should at least get a control screen done as a baseline.

Look at the results they got from the mixing of pigments...they give the collective look of grey, but act separately... We owe it to the development to see if that is possible and where it lacks.


But......I do like your theory...R+G+B micro, high sparkle, mica suspended in poly thinned, then sprayed in fine dust coating layers over your mix in a B-G-R sequence...hmmm sounds tasty..

we may want to start thinking ... magenta cyan yellow soon as well...as tweaks


we are on the same page...



TJ
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post #10 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 07:52 PM
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Can we make/reflect white using CYM?? We'd probably get really good blacks but I don't know how white would look.

Do any latex clearcoats dry clear?? I have yet to see one. And I hate the yellowish tinge they impart on DIY screens. At least the ones I painted.

biglyle, are you going to paint up a control?? Please let us know. Also, are you thinking about any variation.

Lots to think about. Where's mission 313?? I'd like to see what he has to say on the subject since he started the AVS black screen thread.

These are truly exciting times.......

Meow.
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post #11 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 08:30 PM
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benven,
I would say that your idea would be the best approach. The best way would be to use pigments that match the color spectrum of the projector you are using. That is what Sony did and the reason you can only use it with a digital projector. I think the best approach would be a high gain undercoat to help eliminate light coming in from off angle directions. I would then use very little pigment to base maybe 1% pigment. I would then spray one layer of each pigment and repeat. By the way, high gain screens are inherently light rejecting because of the reduced viewing cone.

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post #12 of 514 Old 11-02-2005, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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All the clears and polys I have used dry with a slight tint....

Just before I stopped last year, I found some boutique clear mattes that are sprayable for painting sealants.

Art supply store...can help here...

The CYM suggestion would be to help with a global tint situation....



TJ
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post #13 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 04:57 AM
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Ericglo, if we use such a small amount of pigment, are we going to dilute the colour too much. I guess we won't know unless we try it. I'm all for experimenting and if I have time today, I will get myself down to the art store and see what goodies we can gather up.

Anyone know of any chrome coloured latex paints?? I think we need something more reflective than aluminum if we are going to put 3 or more coats of pigment on top of the reflective layer. Any thoughts?

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post #14 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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You could try a real nice application of SM follow that up with a gloss clear to make a pseudo chrome/mirror


TJ
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post #15 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 05:50 AM
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Hmm, if you apply R-G-B pigments on separately sprayed layers, isn't it going to be extremely difficult to get a neutral gray color out of it? At least when you're mixing in a can, you can eyeball them and freely add a little at a time, until the mix is satisfactory.

Futhermore, I'm not sure if I understand what advantage layers would give over a single solution with all the pigments in it, unless the exact order of the layers is important?

Looks like the materials for this would be easier for me to find locally, than the ones for Canadian Gray, so I'll be definitely following this closely.
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post #16 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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This may be crazy, but I am open to all of it....I was thinking a stencil, such as a window screen could help in the accurate application of each layer than shift over and lay the next in the lattice area of the first, then back to left of the original... overlapping

Definitely a small test srceen wacky idea...but I think the mix is the way...it is really predicated on the translucency of the RGB coat. Light will find it's mark if the mix allows.

The other kooky idea would be to use a type of black chrome substrate that will reflect nicely at anthing above .1 cd/m2 but absorb rapidly below it...but that could be the Holy Grail....



TJ
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post #17 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 07:52 AM
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As a cheap first surface mirror, one could use aluminized mylar. It is not the best solution, but for testing purposes it should be adequate.

CoveX,
I am not sure about mixing since I have never really looked into it, but I would want to keep each pigment separate. If mixing doesn't broaden the spectrum, then mix since that would be easier.

Another thing that has to be taken into account by everyone including MM is that pigment strength usually varies. I would check with the manufacturers to find out how much variance in pigment strength they have.

In my tests with my coatings, I found that even a small amount of pigment reduced the effects of the mirror. I probably needed to do some more tests, but I like the very high gain of a non-pigmented coating.

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post #18 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I seem to recall a pigment posted in here that has highly relflective properites.

Mearlite I think it is...comes in colors... i will have to check and see what volumes and pricing it carries...


TJ
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post #19 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 01:43 PM
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I guess we are kinda playing around here. But it seems that's what the big boys do with their blcak screens, different layers that is. I did manage to get o the store today. Bought a bunch of candy colours and the phthalo colours. Like a dummy, I forgot the red oxide, but I got candy apple red. I don't want to spend too much more money, so what do you think if I sub in Varathane clear instead of Min Wax and the Auto Air aluminum and WOP for the Delta products? I really don't think it's a big deal.

I think your right tehotaone, mearlite was the name. I looked it up once and forget most of the details.

Meow.
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post #20 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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It is mearlite...I can't find anywhere to buy it.

I threw up the Firehawk sample today for reference, real nice centered on the screen but the cone kills it for my viewing distance.

We need to keep this in mind, I still stand that we need this control screen to get this going.

Great Job in moving this along...

Just shoot a test and see what you get..
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post #21 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 03:17 PM
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I just tried a .5% pigment to base ratio on an aluminized mylar background. I used a green pigment, a blue pigment and a red pigment separately that I thought might be close to what would be needed. I must say I was ready to be unimpressed, but it proved interesting. I have partially compared it to my no pigment coating and it looks to have promise. I even think it has more gain than the no pig. I will look at it some more tonight and give more impressions later.

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post #22 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 04:34 PM
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I just mixed this up subbing Varathane for Min Wax and candy red for the red oxide. This mix is like a purplish blue?? Ericglo, what colour was your mix?

Meow.
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post #23 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Benven,

By the way..I was just at HD scouting paints and stuff... I did notice Behr has a "crystal clear" matte latex finish near the Specialty Behr paint like the WOP, SM etc.

I am waiting for my gun as I said, but they have an inexpensive kit dirt cheap right now... the gun runs a rec 25-50 psi with 6.5 scfm @ 50 and a .8 liter cup..it comes with 1.5mm and 2.0 mm tips? I am not all that experienced with what is good in a gun, I borrowed a setup from a friend last year.

How do those specs look? It is not gravity feed...but the price is so cheap?

Let me know, because I could jump in tomorrow if you think I could get decent results with a gun with those specs.

Both you guys seem to be knowledgeable about the hardware side of the painting, but realistically what base level gun is needed for smooth results..

The one I used last year was a rebadged Campfield I believe? It atomized the paint nicely and I got a good finish...

TJ
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post #24 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 05:26 PM
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I have 3 guns. An HVLP gravity, a siphongun for big jobs and a detail gun, a little bigger than an airbrush. Those specs sound good. I like the fact that it has 2 nozzle tips. The larger nozzle could be used with thicker latex mixes. I would say go for it. I have had good success with my Campbell Hausfield siphon gun. I use it to do large outdoor jobs, like painting fences or decks. I have painted some small panels with it, but it does lay down the paint. You will also have paint left over in the cup since it won't drain into the gun. That's why I bought the HVLP.

I gotta believe I did something really wrong here. I also tried some of the candy colours, thinned down 50% but they are still too dark.

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post #25 of 514 Old 11-03-2005, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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read this:

from post 226 on ths page

http://www.lumenlab.com/forums/index...ic=2762&st=220

It seems the pigments are critical to get in the ballpark...

When it comes to the RGB pigments I should throw in a little history here for your benefit. The pigments chosen were based on the suggestion of an engineer/technician at Golden Paints as I had asked him to suggest three primary pigments that would reflect light at the specific RGB wavelengths. The three pigments I have been using have fairly tight spectral responses close to the required RGB wavelengths. This is important and one reason why the Raw Umber may not be a good choice to correct the blue push problem. But then again, I haven't had a chance to see the spectral response curve for Raw Umber. We'll just keep it in the back pocket for now.

Now, considering my experience with the RGB pigments and the "blue push" I've seen, I agree about adding something to compensate so I have had it in the back of my head to add a little more Napthol Red Light. The now somewhat infamous "Jean Luc Picard" shot was made using a pigment ratio of 10 drops Napthol Red Light, 7 drops Phthalo Green (BS), and 4 drops Phthalo Blue (GS). I suggest increasing the Napthol Red Light to 12 drops. Now a 12:7:4 ratio.


Disregard the paint formula changes at the bottom, they were back a few revs. but it would seem the pigments can't be subbed just yet...

TJ
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post #26 of 514 Old 11-04-2005, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Well they moved the LL DIY screen screen section to a premium area...


So the above link won't work anymore.....

Luckily I anticipated this and have ALL if the development posts saved....

I don't want to murk this thread but this must be said...

If anyone has doubts about the motives of the parties involved, this should clinch those opinions.

That is all I will say

subterfuge....classy



TJ
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post #27 of 514 Old 11-04-2005, 08:29 AM
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"If anyone has doubts about the motives of the parties involved, this should clinch those opinions."

Truer words were never spoken

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post #28 of 514 Old 11-04-2005, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

"If anyone has doubts about the motives of the parties involved, this should clinch those opinions."

Truer words were never spoken

I don't believe your assumptions are correct, as the other moderator over at LL emphasized that the motives must be kept in line with the DIY spirit and not to drive anyone's agenda, etc. Certain posts were then removed and all agreed they should be removed.

Being a member of both forums and a paid member of LL I don't believe they moved the forum back (it was in the private section before) for the reasons you imply.

I am recending the comment I made as it implied a general criticism that I didn't intend. The simple fact is that a certain thread here had drawn a lot of attention to the LL DIY Screen forum that LL didn't want so they moved it. Also the LL forum in question is co-moderated and the other moderator has already chimed in to ensure that the thread in question is not driving to a personal agenda.

I appologise if I offended anyone as I simply thought the original claim made was untrue.
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post #29 of 514 Old 11-04-2005, 03:10 PM
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I bet it said on the LL thread, but does anyone here know either

a) if any paint/pigement manufacturers publish the spectral power distribution of their colors or

b) a way to analyze it myself. (If it was a light, not a pigment, I'd just shoot it through a prism, I guess.)

c) if I'm asking the right question?
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post #30 of 514 Old 11-05-2005, 08:53 AM
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man o man...lots of drive showing here to improve the diy selections. Almost want to buy one of those pen sprayers with compressor that artists paint helmets and stuff with. Come on lottery, where are you. An interesting comment tehotaone in a post of a trick to improve perceived contrast by blowing to hec the d65 ( what we have to be at to see what the film intended since their cameras and lighting are set to that standard ). Still would be good to find the color combo that creates the most pop first and then worry about the d65 later with additional ingredients. Maybe for the blue push one could mix in a cheap bottle of gold instead of silver or put the blue pushing color overtop of a gold coat. To combine two luminscent colors from opposite ends of the color wheel cancels the luminescence ( as per an artist site ) but there's got to be a great combination out there. Maybe the silver is better with the raw umber and red then with the green or blue tints. So many combos..what do you do...buy clear based quarts each with a heavy dose of one individual color and start combining. This is a pricey commitment. Thanks for this effort and I wish I could pitch in with some real world observations but maybe someday. Gee that pen sprayer equipment could launch me into a whole new career....hmmm. Imagine trying to spray a whole screen with that tiny thing.
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