Black Flame Light Fusion (Patent Pending) - DIY Mix Disclosed! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 11:24 AM
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Teeh,
This has been fleshed out before. I think My reply to MM thread had a lot of this in it. I personally believe that a second surface mirror is a detriment unless you like to have an unfocused image to reduce screen door. If you can swing it, then a first surface is the way to go. Aluminized mylar is cheap, the Dibond is not.

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post #182 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 12:48 PM
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Behr is very good about consistency, but Delta and Plaid are craft paints. Has anyone done any comparisons to see if they are consistent from lot to lot?
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post #183 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 01:33 PM
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Teeh,

In no way is the use of a 1/8" 2nd surface mirror EVER responsible for creating a unfocused image in and of itself. Only a few have gone so far as to state such, but NO ONE has ever actually produced any conflicting data that alludes to such a thing occuring. It's always "IMO" or "It seems like it would...."

The whole idea of it happening is silly. It originated with a few people expressing the belief that a noticable image shift would occur across the 1/8" gap. That didn't wash then, and it remains a unwashed piece of linen today. And even if such did occur, (...which it does not...) at a viewing distance of over 8' from a large screen where such was happening, virtually nobody's eyes could see the difference. If a 1/8" difference occured on a 32" monitor, perhaps. 8' +? No way.

Now as far as using any Mirror with 1/4" or more of a gap? Perhaps so, but since that thickness has never been reccomended for use, it's irrelevant.

If there is one bit of correct information to be gleaned from that misconception, it's that if the correct amount of paint is not applied to a 2nd Surface Mirror, the returning light can make the surface image on the "too thin Top Coat" fuzzy and indistinct due to being washed out by too much light.

Light Fusion denotes the "re-utilization" of absorbed light through reflection and re-combination. But it isn't as if the returning image is creating a singularly seperate image footprint. Instead, the two major happenings are:

1 The "Gap" between the painted Surface and the reflective surface is infused with light. This light however is markedly down in luminence from having some of it's energy lost in passing through the painted surface, and still more is lost via the reflecting off the Mirror. So the light that makes it back is darker, colors are more distinct, and the effect is that the image has more of a depth as relates to the subtile contrast that defines curvature or shadow detail. Unfortunately, the original MMud Mix was found wanting as far as being able to boost the perceived Black levels, so a few dismissed LF as being defficent for that reason alone.

2. The absorbtion of light, and the return of darker light thereof effectively reduces the appearence of SDE (screen door effect ) and other bothersome screen artifacts. These usually are already "Darker" & "Weaker wavelengths of light that are unable to effectively return to show up if they are trapped or muted to non visible levels.

First Surface Mirror? That's a tricky application, one fraught wilth potential failure. At least with the "old Whitey" MMud. Over 2 years ago I acquired a "Freebee" from Plaskolite Mfg. ; a 4' x8' FS Mirror. ($495.00 otherwise!!! )

For a week, I tried to get the application to work. FS Mirror's have a special coating on top to protect the Aluminum coating, and it didn't bode well as far as accepting the MMud mixture I was using. And the overt reflectivity of the effecent FS Mirror made getting enough paint on top so as to prevent bleedthrough gave me fits. Lastly, even with what appeared to be the right amount of paint, up close, tiny spaklies made themselves apparent. It was that damnable coating shining through.

Three times I tried, and three times I wiped the Mirror clean. The forth time, I spray applied 6 VERY THIN COATS and nailed it. The resulting screen shots were the best most had ever seen on any Forum anywhere....or at least that was the general consensus. Considering the fact that the PJ being used was a DLP w/1700:1 CR and 1280x720 resolution on a 4' x 8' screen area, the correctness of color and the deffinition was something heretofore not seen this side of a CRT. (See Images below)

But I never went so far as to advocate it as a viable application because of the expense and difficulty involved, and therefore, the rush toward Aluminized Mylar and other Highly Reflective films and Paints began.

Since then, precious few have duplicated the feat no matter what material or paint was used. Mylar isn't an easy material to work with, and to get to lay flat. But it has been done, and when accomplished, one deffinately knows it.

So Light Fusion has remained the next best application, with it's 1/8" Gap, to get the "next best Thing" to a 1st Surface application.

Now however, I have access to 1/16" Mirrors. That's as close to 1st Surface as I feel anybody needs to get as far as a "Mirror" is concerned. Talk about flexible!

Highly polished Aluminum panels, Silver Metallic coated panels, and Brushed Aluminum panels all have potential. And with the newer "Darker" Ambient Light mixes, coverage is more easy to obtain while maintaining a thinness that will alow the substrate underneath to affect the overlaying image.

But good "whites" and "frosted" surfaces have something to offer as well. Much of what made Light Fusion desirable was the need to ramp up the image of PJs that were obviously lacking in lumens, as well as in Contrast. Nowadays, many "out of the Box" PJs sport 2000:1+ CRs, and in excess of 1000 lumens, so there are different paths that are available to explore.

Your post prompted this reiteration of previously posted info (...OK, so did yours too Ericglow....) but it still serves to clarify the Light Fusion equation once again. 99% of all screens I make are 2nd Surface LFs, and 100% of the end results are more than is expected by the end user.

Now, with Black Flame being as easy a mix to apply as there ever was, and rolling such has become a reality, there stands the chance for many more Noobs to attempt the application that ever before. I myself will be applying BF & BF-Lite to several different 1st Surface materials in the very near future. Add to that the potential to use any of many other applicable substrates, and there should be some type of LF out there for just about anybody to try.

Why, there are even some other DIY paints you can try as well. How'd that happen?????






So keep looking............,






....and I'll keep my eye out for your next post.



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post #184 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:00 PM
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So... a first surface mirror IS the best choice over any other reflective base. I just knew there was a good explanation for this.
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post #185 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:07 PM
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I did an experiment with several different fabrics I'd picked up from JoAnn Fabrics, plus a 12" wide chunk of 2nd surface acrylic mirror laminated to 1" Gatorfoam:

My first homemade screen is a 200 thread-count white sheet stretched tight over 1" black Gatorfoam. The surface ends up having a slightly grey cast. The sheet has been washed many times, so it's very smooth; no polyester, so no pills.

I laid other fabrics over this to check color, ambient light wash-out and black levels using two different DVD's. (Incredibles and LOTR.) Overlays gave me a chance to compare directly with my substrate. The following are the results.

1. Silver-grey cotton-poly blend. One side of the fabric has a distinct silver sheen, much like a grey beaded screen. Very good ambient light rejection, good black levels, but colors appear less vibrant. Fabric wrinkles and defects easily discernable in areas of shadow. Stretched over a 2nd surface mirror, slightly brighter image, but no by much... Performance WORSE in a totally dark room.

2. Black-out fabric, white on white. Brighter than my base screen, but blacks appear grey and colors seem slightly washed out. However, as others have noted, vinyl coated side is extremely smooth.

3. A white cotton-poly stretch fabic with a slight sheen on one side. Here's where the relevance to this thread comes in:

I got a noticeable increase in black levels and color gamut when stretched over the 2nd surface mirror.

Not a lot, but enough that I'm going to cut a 16:9 with a 100" diagonal and stretch the fabric from #3 to use for awhile to see how I like it. If I decide It's not getting me anywhere, I can just paint over the 2nd surface mirror with the BFLF mixture.

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post #186 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

So... a first surface mirror IS the best choice over any other reflective base. I just knew there was a good explanation for this.

Yes, because as noted, there is no light loss from light waves bouncing around in the acrylic.

Years ago I worked in a museum on the University of Washington campus. The director got the bright idea that he wanted MORE natural light coming down thru the old gallery glass ceilings. We painted the area above white and ringed the attic space with first-surface mirrors made of stretched silver Mylar over wood frames.

This is the only way I know of the avoid some of the issues inherent in trying to adhere Mylar to a substrate: it's almost impossible to do without air bubbles, wrinkles or the substrate telegraphing thru. Paint will crawl on a Mylar surface, so perhaps someone knows of an additive that will take care of that, or a primer coat that will stick.

Tony
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post #187 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

So... a first surface mirror IS the best choice over any other reflective base. I just knew there was a good explanation for this.

That is a given. And I didn't really mean the "stupid question" remark.

It just get's tiresome defending one's remarks over older issues to those who should remember such. Sorry.

Polished Aluminum is very much the better substrate because it will not have the waxy protective coating that a 1st Surface Mirror will have.

But as I said, painting anything that reflective and getting the layered amount onto it at the right thickness is the issue to be delt with.

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post #188 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyreynolds View Post

. Paint will crawl on a Mylar surface, so perhaps someone knows of an additive that will take care of that, or a primer coat that will stick.

Tony

You have to prime a 1st Surface like Mylar or Plastic or Glass by "dusting" the surface with a fine mist of the paint used, much like a light layer of Window Frosting. Then you MUST let it throughly dry before continuing, and keep applying thin layers until you can just barely no longer see any trace of the underlying surface.

But by the way...., the amount of lost light is negligable with a properly done 1/8" thick Mirrored 2nd Surface LF because it (...the collected light...) remains within the substrate as a"Glow". It just get's attenuated in brightness. Nope, it's the lack of any color shifting "period" that creates such an accurate colored image. And that only occurs if you have a decent PJ in any case.

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post #189 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:40 PM
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Artists, when painting with opaque watercolors on polyester film (Mylar is aluminized polyester) will add an anti-crawl agent to their paint, basically soap. Spit works too, but I doubt anyone has a wet enough whistle to do that...

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post #190 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:46 PM
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I've been highly impressed with how easy it is to roll a thin smooth coat on 2 mil. mylar. It really surprised me how nice it rolled. On the largest test panel I rolled I think I used a mix of 1 part each: Kilz2, deep base, Delta pearl, Delta silver metallic, and MinWax. It turned out very nice and I only had to roll one coat to get the desired results with my Optoma H57 projector from 10'.

I haven't tried to affix mylar smooth to a board yet; it seems doomed to fail. However, when I try this I will roll contact cement onto a DoAble white vinyl board that's mounted on a wall.
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post #191 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

I've been highly impressed with how easy it is to roll a thin smooth coat on 2 mil. mylar. It really surprised me how nice it rolled. On the largest test panel I rolled I think I used a mix of 1 part each: Kilz2, deep base, Delta pearl, Delta silver metallic, and MinWax. It turned out very nice and I only had to roll one coat to get the desired results with my Optoma H57 projector from 10'.

I haven't tried to affix mylar smooth to a board yet; it seems doomed to fail. However, when I try this I will roll contact cement onto a DoAble white vinyl board that's mounted on a wall.

Rolling contact cement will create a texture that will telegraph thru the Mylar...

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post #192 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:52 PM
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It's the Minwax that is the key.

Thank PB_Maxxx for the introduction of such to the MMud family, in lue of part of the needed water for thinning.

It also made many other nice things possible as well...., and rolling on smooth surfaces like Mirrors and Mylar was one of the best of the lot.

Makes spraying a absolute dream as well. It decreased texture, decreased spraying time, and resulted in smoother surfaces than I had ever accomplished getting before.

But it also almost killed me.

As for spit...., I do have a lissssssp. But it isn't distilled.

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post #193 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyreynolds View Post

Rolling contact cement will create a texture that will telegraph thru the Mylar...

Tony

It's a liquid contact cement. If you're sure it will (and I have no reason to not take your word for it), I will return the contact cement to Home Depot. Thanks
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post #194 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

It's a liquid contact cement. If you're sure it will (and I have no reason to not take your word for it), I will return the contact cement to Home Depot. Thanks

I have rolled a lot of contact cement. The only thing I can think of that would make it work would be to thin it with tolulene and roll super thin coats. Obviously, it has to be rolled on both surfaces. You'll need a helper to get it down without wrinkles or air bubbles. Smooth from the middle as it's laid and work toward the edges.

An alternative would be 3M Spray Mount. A thin coat on both surfaces would do the trick. Again, you'll need a helper to get it down.

Another way to do it is to go to a vinyl lettering shop and ask them to give you whatever width they have by the length you need on release paper. Then you can lay it down starting at one edge and squeegee it down as you go. Again, a helper (or two) is essential for a surface this large. Vinyl lettering material is already adhesive, so no spraying or rolling is necessary. They should have a reflective silver.

Tony
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post #195 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 03:07 PM
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I didn't seem to have any problem getting my coating to stick to mylar. Check the first pic.

On the second surface, I stick by my experiments. The second pic is a cross hatch pattern. A Silverstar is on top.

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post #196 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 06:52 PM
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All that tells me is that you do/did not have the correct amount of paint on the Mirror.
The most basic of tests when painting a LF dictates that you continue to apply coats (....usually they are thinner than thick...) until text shown on a dry screen shows no haloing.

I'm pretty sure this has come up before ( ...like 9 x 10x) and by far the majority "sees" it exactly in the same "Light". They did entire screens, and more often or not, got some help as well. They got it right too. Plenty of success stories, far more in fact than distractors or even those who just were not impressed posted, or there "would" be more said about it I'd think. .

Of course, with so many having done the app. , and at home enjoying it, it's fated that the only ones' who do post are the ones' that have a complaint.

But out there...., lurking.....are those that would and do take expressions such as that as excuse making. Let' s dispell that, and dismiss it altogether because I personally have not painted a white MMud LF for about 1 - 1/2 years. But the last one I did do was much the same as all the others. Sharp imaged, Flat hued and Texture free as posible, and they did exactly as promised.

The knowledge of just how Silver / Gray under control could help improve the situation led to my quest for better contrast within the MMud genre. That much must be plain. And the Darker mixes go even further to dispell the issues that 1Time points out because things balance out even more easily.

I know that our best BFLF is exactly along the lines of the 1st Surface principle. But just as important is everyone's effort at achieving maximum results on more accessable substrates. And we all have.

I really don't see any arguement, but I will always disagree with a blanket opinion or assesment of one person as to the problem in discussion here being the rule of thumb..

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post #197 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 07:08 PM
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Here's my rule of thumb. MMan will use many words to express himself. And I stand by that statement.
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post #198 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 07:27 PM
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I don't really care. You can call them as you see them, but I stand by my painting. Both samples were painted with thin coats. After each coat, the sample was tested to see if I could see the reflection of the CRTs on the sample. When I could no longer see the reflection, I stopped. That is how I did all of the samples. On the second surface, I took the pictures that you see posted. I then continued to spray on subsequent coats to see what would happen. At the point that it was focused, it was no better than a painted board. In other words, the mirror was having no effect. Since this is more of a Black Flame thread, I will end this argument. I have seen a BF screen and thought it was interesting. One thing you are calling out and I do take some exception to is my painting ability. I know how to paint and I painted the samples more than adequately. This is the system that I use and I doubt anyone on this forum has a better spray system.

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post #199 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 07:36 PM
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Ericglo,

Given your painting system and skills are above reproach, in layman's terms what do your pics demonstrate? Thanks
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post #200 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 07:56 PM
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1time,
I just think that a second surface will not give you a well focused image with the mirror giving any benefit. MM disagrees, but I am entitled to my belief based on my experiments. I think a first surface is the way to go. I used my crosshatch pattern to show the blurring that takes place. I will give some full size pics.

Pic 1-Silverstar below
Pic 2-Silverstar below
Pic 3-Silverstar above
Pic 4-Silverstar above

The Silverstar is just used for reference. One thing I do believe is that a first surface mirror can give gain. So, if you use a low gain paint over a mirror, then you might receive some good ambient properties. I have tried this with a very little dark grey pigment and it works somewhat. I need to play with it some more.

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post #201 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 08:02 PM
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MM knows that that is what happens!!
MM stated it once that is what helped reduce screendoor in the earlier z1's and similar LCD projectors when this screen came out from CMRA.

One thing I noticed the LF also accentuates eric's out of convergence

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post #202 of 866 Old 01-28-2006, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can View Post

One thing I noticed the LF also accentuates eric's out of convergence

Bruce

I knew someone would point that out. I think that was right after I switched between my PGs. Set up is definitely a hell of a lot easier with the two levels.

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post #203 of 866 Old 01-29-2006, 04:20 AM
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...and another thing that is being ignored is the lack of lumens available, and the result is that the amount of paint that you applied to finally eliminate the halos is too thick to allow the Mirror any chance of receiving enough of the light coming from that CRT PJ to make any noticable difference. Or if the last point isn't being ignored, it is being misconstrued as to being indicative of all LF applications on all PJs.

Listen. If the amount of light being broadcast is low to begin with, then the dividing point between LF success and a mere white screen will be narrow indeed. All that such a test you made proves is that for your instance and PJ, it's not a viable solution.

Until you try the experiment with a PJ with adaquate lumens for the job at hand, it bears little weight except for your particular instance. CRTs have seldom been the focus of any recomendation for LF screens, and in fact, many with them expressed concern from the get go as to if they would have enough punch to make it through the painted surface. Now why should this case be any different?

It does NOT mean that everybody's situation would be the same as yours. Dissapointment at one's results at experimentation should not lead one to issue a blanket statement that thier results are definative enough to judge the entire issue as a lost cause. There are just far too many of those with non-CRT set ups who have done LF screens and that are satisfied for that to bear any creedence.

And look back. I took no exception as to your "skill level" or the quality of your equipment, only the thickness of the layering on the test sample being the cause, NOT the mirror's 1/8" gap. But I did point out that by just mentioning such, others would use that as just such a declaration of dismissal of skill, and or an excuse made by me for poor results.

And it happened, of course.

Your seeming success with the 1st surface example says that the underlying reflecftivity works with your lower lumens because the amount that the CRT's light that was lessened by the penetration through the painted surface was still adaquate for the 1st surface mirror to accomplish that particular job. So a correct ascertaion would be that your set up is NOT ideal for 2nd Surface LF "as applied" and perhaps not at all, but it can utilize a 1st Surface application.

Tell me Ericglo, what would you estimate your CRT's lumen output to be? ANSI-wise. 250 lumens? 350 perhaps? That would be bright for many CRTs. But at or below the boardline of usability for the 2nd surface Light Fusion. This then is also the levels of most of the DIY LCD PJs on LumenLab, and cheifly the reason why Mylar, or painted reflective surfaces are the primary focus of what is being used as a substrate for BF, RS_MaxxMud LL, and MMud-SE. Some tried 2nd surface Mirrors, found that they lacked enough lumens for the job, and continued on a different but related course. But none expressed a dismissal of the 2nd Surface concept.

In any case, this thread should get back "on Topic", since many if not most Black Flame applications will NOT be 2nd Surface Light Fusion applications for those who decide to try it.

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post #204 of 866 Old 01-29-2006, 04:22 AM
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The Silverstar is just used for reference. One thing I do believe is that a first surface mirror can give gain. So, if you use a low gain paint over a mirror, then you might receive some good ambient properties. I have tried this with a very little dark grey pigment and it works somewhat. I need to play with it some more.

Ericglo

Nice work Ericglo. I agree with what you stated and I guess that's why I am getting such good results with CG and CGPlus on Silver Metallic PVC fabric. I am going to try it on some mylar to see if I can get better results.

Meow.
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post #205 of 866 Old 01-29-2006, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

Nice work Ericglo. I agree with what you stated and I guess that's why I am getting such good results with CG and CGPlus on Silver Metallic PVC fabric. I am going to try it on some mylar to see if I can get better results.

Seems the old SM/MM app idea is at the root of a lot of DIY apps these days.

Good luck.

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post #206 of 866 Old 01-29-2006, 09:31 AM
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I agree this thread is about Black Flame, so I will end this. First on the CRT lumens, tse says that ANSI measures full white field, but a CRT can hit peak lumens of its rating anywhere from 700 to 1200 in a small field. It is difficult to get that much power to light up a full white screen, at least this is how I understand it. A digital does full white screen and a small white block at the same lumens. Of course, Darin disagrees from his observations, but tse works for VDC. Second on the LF lumens, I thought a LF was supposed to help the low lumen projectors.

Don't reply, MM. I will do some experiments this week and you can unload to your hearts content in that thread. Let this thread be about Black Flame.

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post #207 of 866 Old 01-30-2006, 03:07 PM
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I think, besides the lumens, the very short throw of a CRT may be an issue. The light coming at the angle it would have to, combined with the fact that different colors bend at different angles through glass, makes a second surface mirror, even at 1/8th inch, probably not a good canidate for the CRT, thus the enhanced convergence problem.
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post #208 of 866 Old 01-30-2006, 05:49 PM
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HOLY Fashizzel !

You want to improve your contrast ratio?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=637107

Check out this guys solution. After reading this MMan may try lamp black in his eyes before a movie. Did you notice MMan's screen shot of the kid DOES NOT have black pupils? Where is the black MMan? Is this child actor a freak of nature?

k
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post #209 of 866 Old 01-30-2006, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevivoe View Post

HOLY Fashizzel !

You want to improve your contrast ratio?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=637107

Check out this guys solution. After reading this MMan may try lamp black in his eyes before a movie. Did you notice MMan's screen shot of the kid DOES NOT have black pupils? Where is the black MMan? Is this child actor a freak of nature?

k

Your seeing a reflection in those pupils. Look to the right side of the left eye to see the black that lies outside the central curvature of the eye.

Then look at the Tunic.

Black. No Eye drops needed. Here. Let me help you out.


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post #210 of 866 Old 02-04-2006, 07:50 PM
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So I headed out to Micheals today since their sale on Delta Creamcoat paints were ending today. all 2oz bottles were .66 cents.

I ended up getting just about every paint component but I noticed a few things that may help people on their hunt for paint.

1.) The original PB_maxx post lists "Pthalo" green and blue. Correct me if I am wrong but its "phthalo". Right? or did I get the wrong paint?

2.) The Windsor & Newton paint is located in the Fine Arts section of the store away from where the delta and folk art paint is located. Look for the expensive tiny paint brushes.

3.) There seems to be a number of different Windsor & Newton phthalo Green (PG7). (see image below). Which one do we need? I never did end up buying this.

4.) Is the biggest delta bottle you can buy 8oz? If so, for the pearl you'll need 5 8oz delta creamcoat bottles and 1 2oz bottle for the LITE version of BFLF.

5.) Is the smallest delta bottle 2oz?

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