2006 Chicago Shootout - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle
"MM would be there with his best work"

Are you telling me that MMan is travelling all the way to Chicago for this?

No offence, but it is my opinion that this will clearly add bias to this whole test.
By having Patrick do this "alone" we get a true, non biased third party report, minus all the influence.

Why on earth, would Mman see the need to travel all that way for a simple screen shootout?
I'm not sure why MM would feel the need to travel, but please don't confuse the issue. There are three of us who will do day 1. I'm asking if there is any interest in seeing day 2.

Lyle, please stop overreacting every time MM's name is brought up. I've given you no reason to doubt my objectivity, and I'm offended you would jump to a conclusion like that.

And he hasn't made any travel plans that I'm aware of. He offered to bring a commercial screen and add BF into the DIY shootout, and I turned him down. I'm asking if I ought to bother setting up a "day 2" (commercial v DIY) comparison.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #92 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 07:37 AM
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"Lyle, please stop overreacting every time MM's name is brought up. I've given you no reason to doubt my objectivity, and I'm offended you would jump to a conclusion like that.
"

Patrick

I am not questioning your motives at all, in fact I trust you will be fair. I just dont trust MMan at all, and him trying to weasel his way into the middle of this shootout just reeks of motive.

He wants to prove his screen is the best, that I can understand, because he has a financially driven reason to. But he should submit a sample and sit back and watch from a distance like everyone else. This keeps it objective. Because like it or not, he isnt travelling that far because he is bored.

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post #93 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 07:58 AM
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I withdraw from the competition, this is going to turn into a drama fest.

I will test them my self. I already have CG and referece panels. All I need is the BF and I can test my self.

:-/

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post #94 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle
"Lyle, please stop overreacting every time MM's name is brought up. I've given you no reason to doubt my objectivity, and I'm offended you would jump to a conclusion like that.
"

Patrick

I am not questioning your motives at all, in fact I trust you will be fair. I just dont trust MMan at all, and him trying to weasel his way into the middle of this shootout just reeks of motive.

He wants to prove his screen is the best, that I can understand, because he has a financially driven reason to. But he should submit a sample and sit back and watch from a distance like everyone else. This keeps it objective. Because like it or not, he isnt travelling that far because he is bored.
Nobody who has a stake in this will have any influence over the testing. Period.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #95 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mission313
I withdraw from the competition, this is going to turn into a drama fest.

I will test them my self. I already have CG and referece panels. All I need is the BF and I can test my self.

:-/
Mission,
If it's because you can't get your sample produced and shipped in time, that's fine. If it's because of the seemingly endless confrontations, please don't let that discourage you. This will happen, objectively and equally, and I control the terms.

If anyone has any doubts as to my competence to do this, I will tell you that if this doesn't work right it isn't because of secret Cajun Mind Rays (patent pending). It's because my camera or projector blows up.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #96 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 08:50 AM
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The ONLY reason I would be coming for a "Stage 2" if held would be to provide a full sized BF"LF Mirrored" example because Psennet has said he does not, and will not be able to "spray" a mirror, even if provided with it "in the raw'.

So because I would like to see Pete for the first time, visit with Tony, my Patent attorney and friend for 36 years, and provide a full size BFLF screen where none is as of yet available, your certain that it is all a plot. A scheme. A grasp at trying to manipulate. You'd like to deny me those pleasures because of your vindictative outlook & attitude.

You don't / can't / shouldn't really believe all the crap your throwing out, but it is obviously in your best interest to state such so as to further lessen my involvement and the credit for the work accomplished. You've been at that since the day the Ambient light thread started, protecting YOUR supposed efforts, and no amount of your prostestations of how you'll accept the outcome of this ShootOut can convince me or anybody else that you will not question the results if they swing the wrong way. Your already setting that stage with your inference that Pat cannot be trusted to be of his own mind enough to ward off my evil influence. My being present or not.

I on the other hand, MUST accept the ShootOut results without question, or be labled a whiner and selfishly motivated discounter of the effort. It's the same old double standard you and your like have hung around my neck for some time now. Everyone knows why. It's because try as some few do, thier own work just doesn't measure up. As someone without any amount of originality in your work, or decency in your actions, you've joined that group. You dole out "Snake Oil' insults when in reality, your own scales are falling all about the place. You rode in on the work of others, and continue to try to stay in the saddle even though the horse you rode in on has died beneath you. And you put the bullet to it's head!

BL, your a crass individual when it suits your agenda, and you insult any/all that would be present by infering that somehow I could or would influence the likes of Steve, Patrick, and whomever else might be in attendence. You don't stop to think about what you write, just that you MUST write. Because of all that, your so fixated in dictating "your demands" that I have nothing to do with this comparison, that you once again did not take the time to actually read what was posted by the author and absorb it's contents. No, you instead see only the part that disturbs you. And respond in both error, and with insulting insinuations

But the one good thing that is coming from your actions is the further revelation for everyone of where your mindset is focused upon. Running interference for your own satisfaction, not for any grandiose idea of maintaining objectivity or fairness.
(Ok...., I see. By your reasoning, all I have to do is go away for things to be better. How convienent for you! Fergitabowdit. )


Now, Mission313 has had enough. Probably of both of us, but certainly of you. What does that make of YOUR influence in all this?
IMO, your not even worthy of notice, or your "copied' contributions necessary, for they are not really anything of your own creation. No, your only "there" causing trouble for everyone, Psennet especially. Myself, I can handle it. And You? You should apoligize to everyone. Perhaps that can undo the damage you just caused?

As I said before, it is your repeatedly crass input what is liable to make this become a PITA endeavor, and far more likely to cause Psennett to feel "put off & put out" than anything I might have said, or anything I might do.

Excepting perhaps these posted responses to your endless supply of crap. I've been told, and I'm aware that I'm a sucker for responding to a sucker. And I'm not doing Psennet any more of a favor here than you are by continuing on in this vien. So that will stop. As I previously stated, I was never intending, nor will I be present at the actual shootout. But I'll be within a few miles, so certainly I'll be able to influence it someway, right? But as for Round 2 if it occurs, that is/will be another story. Everyone else trusts Pat to maintain fairness. As do I

Now BL. Have the last word if you must, (...show us your hind end as you leave....) but stop insulting Psennet and anybody else's ability to be of thier own mind.

Psennet, you have my word I'll not post another overt or lengthy response to bigLyle's accusations or insults.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #97 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 09:11 AM
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I am not pointing fingers, I just don't want to be involved in a dramafest.

Some are getting real emotional, because we all have alot of time / money invested in the new mixes. There is also at some level some pride in being crowned the DIY champ. I know it may be stupid , but it is human nature.

Everyone needs to take a step back and let this shoot out just happen. Send the mixes to PSBennet and be done with it. Let him set it up and simply state what he has done and then we can debate his results, but they are his results.

Play Nice or (in cartman voice) "Screw you guys Im going home"

313

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post #98 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 09:44 AM
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Wow, another essay.

Look Mman. I honestly could give a rats arse who has the best mix. I means nothing to me at all, I honestly and sincerely mean that. I make no money at this and never will. I do this simply because I find it to be fair bit of fun.

I have never once claimed to say my mix is the best, or that I thought up every last ingredient on my own. I didnt and I never will say that.

You on the other hand have stated that YOUR mix is the best and this is the reason this all began, to prove or disprove that point. So while we are at it, we may as well just see what really does work the best because it will be great starting point for tinkering and eliminate a lot of leg work for newcomers. If your mix prevails, then thats great, its that simple.

Patrick has been kind enough to donate his time and effort to do this showdown. He has asked for samples from people to use as a comparison. Myself and other have agreed and sent him a mix or two.

We have no reason at all to be there. Patrick is perfectly capable of rolling paint, taking pictures and talking about what he sees. By any of the people involved being at the testing it will only create doubt and cause speculation as to their motives.

So all I am saying is let Patrick do his tests alone, this way no one can bitch about anything, no one can make assumptions, either true or untrue.

As Mission said, send the mixes to Patrick and be done with it. I for one couldnt agree more.

This isnt about winning or losing, this is about people being able to get a great screen, thats easy to make and wont break the bank. Once we see what works the best in comparison to each other we can then eliminate the need for a dozen ambient mixes, and focus then on making that mix even better. That is what this forum is all about, people helping people minus the adgendas of business's who simply cannot help but have a bias because what happens here might affect their bottom line.

So look long and hard, because there is nothing between the lines to see.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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post #99 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, now that we have that cleared up, we can move on.

Here's what I think the update entrants are:
BigLyle 1
BigLyle 2
BF (full strength)
BF-lite
CG-Plus (produced by me)
RS_MMaxxMudd (produced by me)

I haven't seen a retraction of Mission313's withdrawal, so I'll assume that stands. If 313 wants to submit a sample, I can either omit one of Lyle's or just figure out how to put an additional panel in.

I will choose a random order (drawn from a hat) for the placement of the panels. They will be numbered so all photos will identify them.

I will take individual pictures of them projected with a color bar, then the whole lot in formation with the same color bar. Not every color will be on every panel, but a general representation of color "pop" will be evident.

I will duplicate the above using a grayscale. Individual and side-by-each

Then we'll go into the movies. Standards will be used, and I'll make sure we use both light and dark scenes so as to run the gamut. I believe this will be less useful than the bars because of the differences from one part of the frame to another, but it'll give a general comparative view.

I'll try to figure out how to overlay a pure white and standardized gray card over the group shots. Is there some sort of easily accessible, reasonably sized calibration sheets or something?

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #100 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 12:02 PM
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I am sure that this is implied, but I didn't see any mention of ambient light. Do you want to have different degrees of ambient light hitting the screen?

Perhaps have 4 different levels of ambient light:
1. total blackness
2. low amount
3. medium amount
4. high amount

Perhaps to make it easier, you could eliminate the medium, and just go with low and high, as well as total blackness.

EDIT: you would have to try to make sure the same level of ambient light is hitting each part of the screen. A simple light meter could be used to make sure of this?

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post #101 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 12:04 PM
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Patrick

Do you have DVE or Video essentials?

I believe with DVE (I havent looked at mine in a while) that you can project a pure white screen, grey screen, black screen ect.

These may help you as a referance.

I think this was what you were getting at???

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post #102 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Scherrer
I am sure that this is implied, but I didn't see any mention of ambient light. Do you want to have different degrees of ambient light hitting the screen?

Perhaps have 4 different levels of ambient light:
1. total blackness
2. low amount
3. medium amount
4. high amount

Perhaps to make it easier, you could eliminate the medium, and just go with low and high, as well as total blackness.

EDIT: you would have to try to make sure the same level of ambient light is hitting each part of the screen. A simple light meter could be used to make sure of this?
Good suggestions, but I don't have a light meter. Are you bringing one?

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #103 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle
Patrick

Do you have DVE or Video essentials?

I believe with DVE (I havent looked at mine in a while) that you can project a pure white screen, grey screen, black screen ect.

These may help you as a referance.

I think this was what you were getting at???
I have DVE. I've seen most of the screens and I don't remember the pure black/white/gray, but I'll look again. I was thinking of the color bars and grayscale blocks.

I'll find it and take a look.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #104 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 12:29 PM
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Patrick

Looking at my copy, it has (all in title 14)


100% window (chapter 7, title 14), which I believe is a white screen
it also has a red (chapter 8, title 14) , blue (10,14) and green (9,14)screens
and the all important video black (19,14)

Hope this helps

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post #105 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle
Patrick

Looking at my copy, it has (all in title 14)


100% window (chapter 7, title 14), which I believe is a white screen
it also has a red (chapter 8, title 14) , blue (10,14) and green (9,14)screens
and the all important video black (19,14)

Hope this helps
I'll look at it, but I think those are single color one-second circle-thingies, and not full screen color.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #106 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 12:39 PM
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No these ones are full screens, I just looked them over.

Personally I have never had them up when doing tests. I may have to change that.
I forgot how useful this disk really is.

Either way, use what ever tests you want, its your show.

PS - let me know when my samples get to your place.

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post #107 of 277 Old 01-18-2006, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett
Good suggestions, but I don't have a light meter. Are you bringing one?

I have a friend's sound meter--I could probably trade that back to him for a light meter for the test. I'm sure he has one.

Incidentally, I have AVIA, if that is helpful.

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post #108 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett
Here's what I think the update entrants are:
BigLyle 1
BigLyle 2
BF (full strength)
BF-lite
CG-Plus (produced by me)
RS_MMaxxMudd (produced by me)
I was kind of thinking you would have the RS_MMaxxMudd Lite since you had a 4805? Either way, its your show. I for one and extremely appreciative of your work here, just outstanding.

I can appreciate the positions of both MM and Biglyle here. IMO, the results will be "perceived" by MANY as much more conclusive if MM is not there. Whether his presence actually has any bearing on the results or not is a moot point, IMO.

As for putting the same colors accross all the samples, could you photoshop a 16x9 image with repeating, horizontal color bars and then plug a laptop into the projectors? You could pretty quickly tweak the size of the color bars so that each color was represented on each panel. I am quite the novice around here, so I don't know how effective that would be, just wanted to share the idea.

GL
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post #109 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonelong
I was kind of thinking you would have the RS_MMaxxMudd Lite since you had a 4805? Either way, its your show. I for one and extremely appreciative of your work here, just outstanding.

I can appreciate the positions of both MM and Biglyle here. IMO, the results will be "perceived" by MANY as much more conclusive if MM is not there. Whether his presence actually has any bearing on the results or not is a moot point, IMO.

As for putting the same colors accross all the samples, could you photoshop a 16x9 image with repeating, horizontal color bars and then plug a laptop into the projectors? You could pretty quickly tweak the size of the color bars so that each color was represented on each panel. I am quite the novice around here, so I don't know how effective that would be, just wanted to share the idea.

GL
That's a novel approach, but I think that creating a color bar source would introduce the possibility of artifact that I don't want to be responsible for. I think the AVE disk will give us enough visual sources to be objective.

Thanks for the input!

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #110 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 08:21 AM
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When are you planning to do this shootout? I would love to attend it... I would be happy to bring over my Sharp XR-10X XGA projector as a "different" perspective over the Infocus 4805 for picking screens.....

Are the screens portable? IF so, I would offer my place to compare the screens with a 4:3 matte white electric Targa Draper screen as a comparison/benchmark with a "pro" manufactured screen....
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post #111 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 08:38 AM
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Patrick- is there a chance maybe after a set of shots you could move the screens around so that maybe everyone had a chance to be in the middle with direct light and not to the side. That way no one could say well that one looked better because of best position. Maybe that will just be a hassle but it was a thought kind of like musical chairs so everyone has the same position at least once.
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post #112 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 08:53 AM
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I personally like to use the 100 ire checkerboard pattern for my testing as it makes it easy to get each sample in the white and black areas to see how it will fair at both ends of the spectrum and compare those characteristics with each other. Then I use the full screen colors and color bars to evaluate color saturation and accuracy.

I also check at 0 axis and 30 deg off axis to see if it has an acceptable viewing cone. I personally would be happy with a total of a 60 degree viewing cone.

Edit: I use avia

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post #113 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 08:57 AM
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Those are great ideas Mission

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post #114 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artimp
Patrick- is there a chance maybe after a set of shots you could move the screens around so that maybe everyone had a chance to be in the middle with direct light and not to the side. That way no one could say well that one looked better because of best position. Maybe that will just be a hassle but it was a thought kind of like musical chairs so everyone has the same position at least once.
My intent is to flood the screen with diffuse light, that would hit all parts at once (sort of like bounce photography.) I'm going to spend this weekend figuring out how to make all of this happen.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #115 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardr132
When are you planning to do this shootout? I would love to attend it... I would be happy to bring over my Sharp XR-10X XGA projector as a "different" perspective over the Infocus 4805 for picking screens.....

Are the screens portable? IF so, I would offer my place to compare the screens with a 4:3 matte white electric Targa Draper screen as a comparison/benchmark with a "pro" manufactured screen....
At present, it will be at my home in Geneva on Saturday the 28th. That's as definite as I have arranged at this point. I'll post more on Monday for you to consider, if you want to attend.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #116 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 10:34 AM
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If any "Attendee" has a PJ with more lumens than the 4805 and could bring it along, that would allow the 'darker' examples more of a chance to show their potential. As it stands now, there is a distinct difference between some applications.

Fer instance, BF-Lite is specifically designed to fit into the lower lumen category, as is RS_MaxxxMud LL, but of course, by doing such, both have to sacrifice a tad bit of the ambient light potential that a "Full strength" BF or RS_MaxxMud mix would have. So far, and for some, there has been no issues there, but in a test of comparative "Dark" examples against applications of markedly lighter hues, what some/many have already found exceptible might be adjudged as a detrimental result due to "crush" or just plain "dullness" when compared to a much lighter hued sample with the same amount of Lumen hitting it.

The same criteria applies to all samples, for it would be an excellent thing to see how each fairs with the additional lumens. There is the possibility that other Mixes that don't show all that much pissaz with the 4805 might stand out with an additional 2-300 lumens available. My suggestion is not "BF" specific in it's portent.

This then might actually be the best reason to have a Stage 2 Shootout between the truly dark screen apps, both DIY and Mfg varieties, so as to make the point that there is in fact a variety of selection as far as choices, and that they can be based on what specific needs or desire an individual wants/requires.

lastly, it would also do as a great venue for an additional matchup of the top two "Lite" finishers against the Stage 2 participants. I feel that if this could be accommodated, it would even out the variables, and prevent too drastic a difference in hues from the presented applications in stage 1 from being used as a justifiable or unjustified reason for a poor showing.

The door swings both ways in this, with everyone on the same footing.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #117 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
If any "Attendee" has a PJ with more lumens than the 4805 and could bring it along, that would allow the 'darker' examples more of a chance to show their potential. As it stands now, there is a distinct difference between some applications.

Fer instance, BF-Lite is specifically designed to fit into the lower lumen category, as is RS_MaxxxMud LL, but of course, by doing such, both have to sacrifice a tad bit of the ambient light potential that a "Full strength" BF or RS_MaxxMud mix would have. So far, and for some, there has been no issues there, but in a test of comparative "Dark" examples against applications of markedly lighter hues, what some/many have already found exceptible might be adjudged as a detrimental result due to "crush" or just plain "dullness" when compared to a much lighter hued sample with the same amount of Lumen hitting it.

The same criteria applies to all samples, for it would be an excellent thing to see how each fairs with the additional lumens. There is the possibility that other Mixes that don't show all that much pissaz with the 4805 might stand out with an additional 2-300 lumens available. My suggestion is not "BF" specific in it's portent.

This then might actually be the best reason to have a Stage 2 Shootout between the truly dark screen apps, both DIY and Mfg varieties, so as to make the point that there is in fact a variety of selection as far as choices, and that they can be based on what specific needs or desire an individual wants/requires.

lastly, it would also do as a great venue for an additional matchup of the top two "Lite" finishers against the Stage 2 participants. I feel that if this could be accommodated, it would even out the variables, and prevent too drastic a difference in hues from the presented applications in stage 1 from being used as a justifiable or unjustified reason for a poor showing.

The door swings both ways in this, with everyone on the same footing.
Well then, my Optoma EP719 should fill in the gaps nicely. We'll give that a shot if time allows, which should happen.

Patrick

Wow, did the basement really take four years to build out?  It seems like fifteen minutes.... under water!

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post #118 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psennett
Well then, my Optoma EP719 should fill in the gaps nicely. We'll give that a shot if time allows, which should happen.

Oh absolutely. And any of the applications that require the highest level of ambient light performance are also one's that benifit from a 4:3 format. I am seeing quite a number of individuals posting for advice for a DIY ambient light screen app. for their Presentation-type PJs

Besides that, if any of the proposed applications, (...incl. BF Dark) cannot perform up to snuff with that level of lumenosity, then it's time to go home. Or at least change one's way of thinking, fer sure.

What I hope to see is just how much performance and PQ can be maintained with as much Ambient Light present as can be provided. It very well may be that what performs "so-so" at one level might stand out above all else at another, and that in itself is valuable info to be able to provide.

Sounds like your fully on top of that as well, Psennett.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #119 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 01:37 PM
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psennett, I for one am impressed with your dedication and hard work. I know a few people have said it, so I will also express my thanks in public. Keep up the good work and I hope we all learn something from this. Maybe a new mix/method will come out of this. Ya never know. And if it happens, I got dibs on "Shootout".

Meow.
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post #120 of 277 Old 01-19-2006, 01:40 PM
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Keep me posted...

Could be a great way to compare my Sharp XR-10X (movie mode, no ND2 filter, movie mode with ND2 filter; and standard mode with your screens and ambient light and it would be interesting to see your Optoma 719 as well for comparison purposes... There is a thread out there trying to compare the two projectors side by side.... for plusses/minuses...

Let me know....
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