Sandmans Open Weave Vinyl Screen Project begins! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Folks,

As a request from several members here, I edited my first post here to give newcomers a brief update of what progress has developed with my quest to find the Ultimate DIY Acoustically Transparent (AT) Screen.

So anyway, let's sum up this whole thread (saves you from reading through 60 pages)

------------
The Story
------------

I went the DIY way (not because of money issues) but because of performance issues. I have received many audio transparent screen samples from Stewart, Screen Research, Da-Lite, Vutec, Draper, Dazian, etc. and learned that I did not like their performance aspects due to one major reason or another.

With my personal testing I have learned that these screens I got either Moiré, were too dark, were too soft, picture reproduction was not clear or had audio issues. One way or another they were not good enough for me to put in my theater.

Major Screen Companies like Screen Research Clearpix2 and Vutec Sound Screen 5 use a 5% Openness Weaved screen so that gave me a good starting point on what to look for as far as an openness factor. These major screen companies seemed to have good results audio wise with that 5% openness so that is what I looked for from all these manufacturers I got samples from.

I ordered and tested many vinyl weaves from many manufacturers around the world, including USA, Europe, Africa, etc. These vinyl weaves are commonly used for Sun Shades to allow 3% 5% or 10% of light to pass through it (which is called the openness) but they keep most of the light out.

So after a month or so of researching I found quite a few manufacturers around the world that made a 5% openness weave in an all white color. So I ordered samples large enough to test. After receiving all my samples I started experimenting by weave type and brightness. Then I narrowed it down to a few samples that visually outperformed the leading screen company’s top AT screens IMO.

-------------------------
Audio Transparency
-------------------------

What good is having an Audio Transparent Screen if the Audio gets affected, right?

I really loved the visuals of what I found, so next was to audio test them. For my front sound Stage, I am using Martin Logan Odysseys, a Martin Logan Theater Center Channel and a Velodyne DD18 Sub. This is about $13k in speakers going behind the AT movie screen and I will not tolerate any alteration of sound. What's the point to use expensive transparent speakers if they are going to be ruined by an AT screen? So first I did some A-B blind tests with some friends and could not hear any coloration to the audio (which was very important to me). Then I hooked up a calibrated Mic and ETF Software to audio test the transparency of these few weave samples I liked visually. I tested and learned that the 5% openness weaves I liked performed just as well as the Vutec Sound Screen 5 which meant I was on to something really good here. So Audio passed my Ears test and the ETF calibrated software comparison test.

----------------
Color Testing
----------------

Alan Gouger (The administrator here at AVS) offered his help to get these samples color tested by a color lab to see if they color shifted or if this material had any other abnormalities about it. So Alan shipped the Samples to a major Color Lab in NY that tests all the major screen companies screens for them http://www.progressivelabs.net/

Two of the 3 samples I sent them color shifted a bit, but there was one sample that passed the test with flying colors and even tested better than some of the major screen company’s screens. So this was the white color that we needed to use to do our AT screen with.

-----------
The Gain
-----------

The best part about this weave is it is bright compared to the other weaved AT screens I tested.

Mark P from AVS here did a side-by-side video of the Stewart Solid StudioTek 130, which is a 1.3 gain Screen, and this weave. According to his video and his reports, this weave is almost as bright as the studiotek 130. I myself also did a side-by-side comparison, but I used a Stewart Studiotek 130 microperf screen against this new weave and found they were quite similar in brightness. So I would say this new weave may be between a 1 and 1.2 gain

Here is a Side by Side with The Stewart Studiotek 130 Solid Screen with a 1.3 gain.
The Stewart is on the right. The gain is almost the same except for the perfs on the SMX causing a 5% loss of Light making it slightly darker than the Stewart.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/s20.jpg


---------------------------
Perfecting the Weave
---------------------------

So next thing was to try to get a special fine weave done with this color. The current weave the manufacturer was using with the good white color was a bigger more pronounced weave pattern (still with the 5% openness). This bigger style weave would probably be too noticeable for most people sitting close to the screen. Plus this bigger weave had larger holes (about the size of Stewarts Micro Perf holes).

So I contacted the manufacturer to see if they would do a special run of the tested white color with a finer less pronounced weave with the 5% openness. They said we would need to do at least 12 30 Yard rolls to get this done. So they sent me a sample of the weave they could do with the color that was tested. Once I received the sample from them it was pretty much what I was hoping for. A nice unpronounced weave pattern with extremely small holes that were undetectable by the human eye from 6 feet or so away but still have the 5% openness to let the audio pass through unaffected.

So after I was able to strike up enough interest with my fellow friends here at AVS, we did a group buy and ordered the 12 rolls.

-------
Moiré
-------

One of the biggest issues with AT screens is Moiré.

Everyone so far has been able to eliminate Moiré if they had it by rotating this material a few degrees on the frame if moire was present. This material is directional meaning, the 98" width of this material should only be used as the height of your screen. The Yardage you order should run horizontal. ie. If you order 4 yards to make a 10 foot Wide screen you run the 4 yards horizontal. If you are doing a 8 foot wide screen, don't order 2 yards thinking you can use the 98" width for the 89" wide screen. This will only give you moire.

What is Moiré?

Moiré is a slight rainbow effect you get in bright scenes from the hole pattern of the material lining up with the screen door of the projector (if your projector even has screen door). CRT users don't have screen door, so moiré is not an issue for CRT users. You can eliminate moiré by rotating this material 10 degrees or so on the frame. This is the same technique Stewart uses to rid moiré on their micro perf screens. Not really a big deal, but just something you should know if you are interested in getting some of this material for your DIY AT screen.

-------------
The Name
-------------

We are calling this material SMX-720. This is the abreviation of my AVS name SandmanX = SMX and 720 is for the guys with the 720 projectors.


-------------
Screen Shots
-------------

Here is Dazian CCC compared to this SMX 720. THese shots were tooken using an Optoma H-79 projector.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...ian-vs-SMX.jpg


Here is the Dazian
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...s/DSC09292.jpg

Here is the SMX-720
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...n/DSC09104.jpg

==============

Here is the Dazian
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...s/DSC09286.jpg

Here is the SMX-720
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...n/DSC09218.jpg

==============

Here is the Dazian
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...s/DSC09275.jpg

Here is the SMX-720
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...n/DSC09231.jpg

==============

Here is the Dazian
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...s/DSC09277.jpg

Here is the SMX-720
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...n/DSC09234.jpg

==============


Throughout this thread you will see audio comparison Graphs, Color Charts, Side By Side Comparisons and lots of talk. It is all pretty much in here, but just allot of pages to sift through.

If you are interested in trying out this new Audio Transparent Screen Material
EMAIL ME I have some available.

If you want to discuss this any further, I have set up another forum to openly discuss this material at http://www.reefin.com/smx/

Ruben




===================================================
===================================================


Here is my original post here:

Hi Folks,

Some of you may know me from the Home Theater Construction Forum. I recently decided to Build my own screen after going through a Moire problem with my DLP Projector and my Da-Lite High Contrast Cinema Perf Screen.

I've gotten Perforated screen samples From Dazian, Stewart, Da-Lite, VuTec, Screen Research and more to name a few.

I pretty much like the VuTec Vinyl open Weave Screen Material as far as picture reproduction goes. I know some of you guys here are not too big into the picture quality, but I am. I am also big time into the Sound quality too. Due to the nature of the business I am in, I studiy Video and Audio quality on a daily basis and know what I am looking for in a screen material.

First off, I tried the Dazian Coated Celtic Cloth on my Optoma H-79 DLP Projector and it looked plain terrible to me. The image clearity degraded greatly by dulling, the colors got washed out, the Blacks sucked, Contast sucked, the colors were bleeding too much on the screen as well. I also tried adding a black back to the sample and it just brought the contrast up better.

So I tried the Screen Research CP2 Material next. This was a big improvment over the Dazian but it still seemed to dull the quality of the Picture.

So today I got Screen Samples from VuTec and the woven Samples from VuTec were the best I saw so far. So I did some further research online and found the same Vinyl open Weave material VuTec uses but at around $12 a yard and comes in 62 - 72" widths by whatever Lengths.

I am ordering a bunch of different whit and grey open weaves to Sample. If i can find the right one, maybe it will cost me $75 to make the screen opposed to buying a Screen Research screen at $3k - $4k

Has anyone here done any experiments with Open Weave Vinyl fabrics here?

Thanks
Ruben

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post #2 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 07:59 AM
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I am in the exact same boat as you, sandman! Here is my thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=633861.

I too felt that way about the dazian CCC when I was using a 2'x2' sample, however, when I used a full size sample the quality seemed to greatly improve. Not good enough, though.

I currently have most of those fabrics I mentioned in my thread and most are large enough to make 2-3 screens, I also have a few more on the way.

I've tried painting some of the fabrics (spray can and hvlp) and have had excellent preliminary results, no clogging of the weave what so ever. I definitaly feel this is the direction to go.

Do you have equipment to measure the screens both visually and acoustically? If you do and are willing, pm me and we will combine our ideas and I will send you my samples for testing. I do not have the proper equipment or else I would do it.
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post #3 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 08:06 AM
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Ruben,

A little OT but, what an awesome job on your room! That is truly a work of art and I'm sure you will enjoy it for years to come. I especially love the seats and the column work.

I haven't experimented with open weave. I would be interested in sampling some of this material. Can you provide details on where you can get this material? Please and thanks.

And I wonder if you can paint up these weaved screens with some of the mixes floating around here to further enhance performance?

Meow.
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post #4 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven

And I wonder if you can paint up these weaved screens with some of the mixes floating around here to further enhance performance?
Benven,

I am currently working on it, and from what my early testing tells me... absolutely! I encourage you to give it a shot. The only thing is that the coats have to be very thin, but it is definately possible.

I'm waiting to see what the results are or the Chicago shoot-out before I get too involved, but here is my initial idea: I am going to use chrome paint (for a near mirror-finish) as the base-coat and then top it with either the bflf mix or one of the others. I also have a semi-transparent reflective paint that I may try throwing into either the base or top coat.

I also have a couple vinyl weave fabrics that are already silver (from the factory) and all they need is the right topcoat.
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post #5 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 08:34 AM
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Ruben-
On the contrary, we are very big into PQ here.
Could you link some screenies in this thread as well when you get that vinyl open weave material set up?
And yes, your HT freakin' rocks! You know I've been following your thread!
I especially like your column work.
Anyway, some screenies when you get a chance. Thanks, -j
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post #6 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesboyjr
Benven,

I am currently working on it, and from what my early testing tells me... absolutely! I encourage you to give it a shot. The only thing is that the coats have to be very thin, but it is definately possible.

I'm waiting to see what the results are or the Chicago shoot-out before I get too involved, but here is my initial idea: I am going to use chrome paint (for a near mirror-finish) as the base-coat and then top it with either the bflf mix or one of the others. I also have a semi-transparent reflective paint that I may try throwing into either the base or top coat.

I also have a couple vinyl weave fabrics that are already silver (from the factory) and all they need is the right topcoat.
Thanks blueboyjr. I'll be cheering for CGPlus in the shootout! Now where did you get the silver vinyl weave fabric from??

Meow.
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post #7 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven
Thanks blueboyjr. I'll be cheering for CGPlus in the shootout! Now where did you get the silver vinyl weave fabric from??
Luckily I found a limited supplier on Ebay who is selling fabric only. The name of the store is Knight-N-Gale's Jetsam . I have purchased the Soltis 92 by Ferrari Textiles Coated Polyester Exterior Solar Protection Eliminates 92% of Solar Radiation Color: Silver (seems interesting, I could almost say that there definately will be no moire due to the hole pattern, but I due notice a slight texture at 10') and the Mermet Internal and External blinds Sunscreen Color® Satiné 5500 Neutrals 3030 Visible Transmittance: 6 - 16 Color: Charcoal (I have not received this one yet, but it looks like it will be one of the best judging from 3gmermet.com it appears to be very close to the screen research and vutec fabrics)
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post #8 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 01:40 PM
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If you and bluesboyjr can come up with something here, you will earn the everlasting gratitude of the DIYers as well as from people who buy from the current crop of AT companies, as those companies need some pressure put on their prices.
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post #9 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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The material I am experimenting with is Vinyl Micro weave material. I found the same exact weaves VuTec is using on their weaved screens. I even found the same weave Screen Research is using for ClearPix 2, but I need to find out on Monday if it comes in white and grey like all the other weaves I found did.

The open weave and micro weave vinyl material I'm getting runs $12 a yard and comes in 62" and 72" widths and any length. Imagine finding a Material that proves just as good if not better than Vutec and Screen Research for $12 a yard?

Does anyone here know if the Weaved screens that VuTec and Screen Research sell get a sprayed on Coating or is just Straight White and grey PVC? Do they actually manufacture these weaves with special composites for gains?

Ruben

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post #10 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I also want to add that I'm not doing this because I can't afford the $5k - $6k Stewart Microperf Screen I need. As I'm putting a $20k surround sound system In my theater and I built a $2,600 HTPC to enjoy the best possible Visual and surround Sound possible.
I just personally don't like the Microperfs on Stewarts Screens due to the graininess they add to the picture and who knows what's gonna happen with the Moire. Plus I absolutely can not justify spending that much on a screen that isn't anything special.

My objective here is to find a good price material that a Guy Like Me with a High end theater can enjoy and another guy with a entry level theater can afford. But most of all, I love doing these projects :)

If all these tests fail in the end, I will most likely go with one of VuTec's weave material for my screen choice.

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post #11 of 2251 Old 02-04-2006, 08:30 PM
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Sandman,
Do you have a link to the material you are considering?
Thanks.
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post #12 of 2251 Old 02-05-2006, 02:53 AM
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SandmanX,

I have two questions for you regarding Screen Research:
1.) when you conducted your test, did you use the certified black backing material that usually ships with it behind the CP2 matte white material. Also did you use the smooth side of the CP2 fabric towards the lens. If you don't use the black backing material or take steps to black-out the area behing the screen (matte black paint or velour fabric, you will see ghosting and dramatically reduced contrast ratio.

2.) Are you aware that you can purchase a 70" wide/80.3 diag. Screen Research J-frame screen with certified CP2 screen material starting at around $1400?

Please feel free to contact me off-line for addition testing, pricing and purchasing detail.

Good listening and viewing,

John Caldwell
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Grace Motif, Inc
Scottsdale, AZ
www.gracemotif.com
tel: 480-463-4248
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post #13 of 2251 Old 02-05-2006, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbaldguy
SandmanX,

I have two questions for you regarding Screen Research:
1.) when you conducted your test, did you use the certified black backing material that usually ships with it behind the CP2 matte white material. Also did you use the smooth side of the CP2 fabric towards the lens. If you don't use the black backing material or take steps to black-out the area behing the screen (matte black paint or velour fabric, you will see ghosting and dramatically reduced contrast ratio.

2.) Are you aware that you can purchase a 70" wide/80.3 diag. Screen Research J-frame screen with certified CP2 screen material starting at around $1400?

Please feel free to contact me off-line for addition testing, pricing and purchasing detail.

Good listening and viewing,
Hi John,

We are doing a 122" Wide screen not 70" wide.

Yes we did use the Black Back and used the correct Side. The Black back improved contrast and reduced ringing/ghosting greatly. I don't know how anyone would use Clearpix2 without a black back. But still, the picture lost a fair amount of detail and dulled out considerably. Also, your Black Back is way overpriced. That Material costs $13 a yard and and you guys are charging me $500 for a 122" Black Back. When It costs me $48 for 4 yards.

You guys have a great product, don't get me wrong. But I think VuTec has you beat when it comes to the weaves with better picture quality.

For my testing, I'm using an Optoma H-79 Darkchip3 DLP Projector 16:9 720 native and Using an HTPC we built with TheaterTek with FFdshow and dScaler postprocessing to playback Movies off the Hard Drive. The Projector and HTPC is connected via DVI.

Here is some pictures of the side I was testing on the CP2 in my main construction thread...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6951847

Ruben

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post #14 of 2251 Old 02-05-2006, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesboyjr
Sandman,
Do you have a link to the material you are considering?
Thanks.
I'm getting the material locally tomorrow or Tuesday.
When I get it, I will test it and post pictures of the Material and results.

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post #15 of 2251 Old 02-05-2006, 12:20 PM
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Sandman,
There was an official Vutec acoustic screen thread started by Alan Gouger that had a lot of this same info in it. You might want to check it out.

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post #16 of 2251 Old 02-05-2006, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
I know some of you guys here are not too big into the picture quality, but I am. I am also big time into the Sound quality too. Due to the nature of the business I am in, I studiy Video and Audio quality on a daily basis and know what I am looking for in a screen material.
HEY not everybody here uses a light fusion .



Quote:
First off, I tried the Dazian Coated Celtic Cloth on my Optoma H-79 DLP Projector and it looked plain terrible to me. The image clearity degraded greatly by dulling, the colors got washed out, the Blacks sucked, Contast sucked, the colors were bleeding too much on the screen as well. I also tried adding a black back to the sample and it just brought the contrast up better.
This sounds like a DLP problem . :)



Hey sandmanX are you getting any bites on the screenat the bottom of your sig ? You know, the one you are describing how terrible it is :)


I have looked at a lot of perf screens and I sit so close that I have not found any that I want to compromise my pic for the imaging improvement .

But I agree buying screen material is a good solution and is usually a pretty cost effective way to get a good quality screen .

You do realize this topic is taboo here !!
Do you know how many DIY screen makers you will put out of work by talking like that in here :)

Looks good though I will be following your process here .

Bruce
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post #17 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 01:25 AM
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Ruben,

Sounds like you know the MSRP pricing of a 122" Jframe screen already right?

Dealers on the AVS forum you can work with include Larry Kosova, Automated Home & Business, 773-213-9323, lkosova@yahoo.com. Also Kei Clark, Digital Connection, LLC, 714-960-9814, kclark@digitalconnection.com.

The vutec may look nice, but its not THX or ISF certified like the SR CP2. I highly doubt that it would pass one or both certs.

Feel free to contact me offline for more input and authorized dealers who you can work with.

Good listening and viewing!

John Caldwell
President
Grace Motif, Inc
Scottsdale, AZ
www.gracemotif.com
tel: 480-463-4248
fax: 805-856-2212
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post #18 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 08:27 AM
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Big if the vutec looks and sounds nice then the little thx logo silk screened on the bottom will not do too much in real life situations .
I would imagine the savings in costs with the vutec not paying for the advertising of the thx logo is more important to some people.


I think that some of the HIgh PRICED screens will have to go through a changing period now that HIGH END HOME projectors have dropped so much in the last few years.
It should NEVER make sense to pay more for a screen than you projector .

Even if you are a digital fan it would be crazy to buy a five grand + screen and a three thousand doller projector over a 500 doller screen and a 7500 projector. Three years ago maybe but not now.



Big if you can talk Sandman into your screen that he finds degrades the pic and costs more than two good sized plasma's over his visually preferred vutec that costs him 75 bucks then you are good .

If as you say your product that is four grand for the same screen size as his 75 dollar screen is better and He can SEE it or HEAR it !! Then I imagine he has the funds and need for perfection he would buy it .

Big please tell us about these tests since you brought it up it might help sandman decide if you tell us how your screen did in the tests .



The testing is what I am interested in how are they tested ? is there a minimal numbered requirement or what does it bring in terms of testing is this info available on the test results between different screens .


Giving you a hard time big but what the hell !! WE have been patient and read your sales pitch so you owe us one :)
I am curious about the thx certification process to the screens can you please tell us ?


Bruce
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post #19 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 02:10 PM
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Bruce,

Like all things in audio and video, what may look and sound nice on paper or at first glance to someone with a low reference (not you of course ;>) ), doesn't necessarily make it a superior buy. Maybe a good buy. But not superior.

I refer to things like Sony Trinitron bright white tuning and Bose speakers as just two examples of what may appear at first to be "good." Both are designed to be nice and titillating at first glance -- maybe. But not something that will give someone with a higher reference years of AV enjoyment and emotional satisfaction.

The "dulling of the picture" as has been claimed above, could easily be attributed to the comparing of SR's unity gain material to a higher gain material. To the uninitiated, a brighter picture will always seems "better." At first.

As to your assertion that a screen should never cost more than the screen, is fairly true -- if you define a screen as just being something that you view. In fact, an AT screen like Screen Research is something you view and listen to. It's an enabler in that it enables a better class of audio system to be installed and thus create more enjoyment for it's owners.

Second, I think you are forgeting about the rather large segment of the market who realizes that the projector that they have TODAY is not the same projector they will have in 2, 3 or 5 years from now. I know plenty of SR clients with 3 to 6K projectors with SR screens who are going to be playing the upgrade game with their projectors over the next 5 to 10 years.

Your cynicism of THX certifcation as some sort of advertising gambit is naive. THX certification and testing is extreamly rigorous. While they won't openly publish all their specs, you can read more about it in this interview with John Dahl from THX: http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/THXp1.html

When it comes to testing that Screen Research has been subjected to beyond ISF and THX -- four most recent examples include:

Mix Magazine:
http://teamsync.cebiz.net/771f8d7371...137dd508e99988

Ultimate AV
http://teamsync.cebiz.net/b869f6b0b3...b4ce35914307ce

Home Theater magazine
http://teamsync.cebiz.net/c57e5a4a41...54e911e7c4fdde

Secrets of Home Theater magazine/ezine
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...en-6-2004.html

The screen material has also been independently tested and substantiated by audio forensics experts like Kirkegaard and Associates and others. I can send you these lab results off line if required.

Good listening and viewing!

John Caldwell
President
Grace Motif, Inc
Scottsdale, AZ
www.gracemotif.com
tel: 480-463-4248
fax: 805-856-2212
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post #20 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 02:29 PM
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Thanks I will look most of that up half of what I was saying is just giving you a DIY razzing :)

As far as thx certification There are so many products that achieve higher standards set out by the the thx certification that are not certified .

Certification does not mean the best !! it means it has passed a standard !!

Because something does not have that logo does NOT mean it is substandard by any means CORRECT ?
You would have to be nieve to think that every product wants or needs to be certified by THX :)
DO you think that the Vutec product might be able to get certified but just has not

THX was originally started to set standards But in the last few years I am not as impressed as I once was.

In my opinion it is more of a base now.
I can show you many examples of products where thx certified does not ensure you have the BEST product in any particular product range right ?
Home theater receivers as one example.

I would imagine screens are not too different in that regard

Big I agree just because a product sounds or looks good at first does not mean anything at all.

But I would like your opinion on one thing Would Sandman have a better visual experience with a ruby and a cheaper non thx screen or a thx screen and a cheaper projector ?

The source is always more important and I see you didn't take me to task on that one :)

If he likes his screen better and saves a ton of money then possibly he can afford some other thx certified products like their certified drywall .

Bruce
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post #21 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 05:04 PM
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Bruce,
Is your Marquee 9500 THX or ISF certified?:) Is a Light Fusion or Black Flame THX or ISF certified?:) Just having some fun, John. I do agree with Bruce that there are products out there that surpass THX certification, but have not submitted the money to get certified. The good thing about the THX logo is that you know without doing any research that it is at least good product.

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post #22 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Update:

Well guys, today I dedicated my day to find my screen material. Since I own a film company, I was able to open an account at a nearby supplier of Materials.

What I'm about to tell you will probably shock you (or maybe not)

I spent the day putting paperwork together to get an account at this supplier. So once the account got set up, I drove 65 miles to them to check out samples. This place has a billion different PVC/Vinyl weaves. They had a box of sample cards and books ready for me when I got there. I spent about a half hour going through the sample cards looking at the different weaves. Trying to find the perfect match to the VuTec Material. I found about 6 different candidates.

So as I was looking and comparing the samples with the VuTec samples , one of the managers came out and saw the VuTec material I was comparing and said right off the back, "Oh are you looking for that material too?" and I was like "Yeah?!?" So he runs off to the warehouse and comes out with the same exact identical material as the VuTecs. It even comes in the same 3 openess weave patterns they offer. It also comes in 90" widths by 30 Yard rolls.

So it looks like I found the resource. I also brought home a bunch of other cool weaves to sample. So I will be experimenting tonight.

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post #23 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 05:24 PM
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Ruben,
Here is Alan's thread about the Vutec screen material. A lot of this has been discussed along with alternatives. I see you have found some interesting materials. Keep us posted. If it is cheap enough, then I would consider maybe trying it out.

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post #24 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
Ruben,
Here is Alan's thread about the Vutec screen material. A lot of this has been discussed along with alternatives. I see you have found some interesting materials. Keep us posted. If it is cheap enough, then I would consider maybe trying it out.

Ericglo
I know about that thread, I read through it the other day. The discussion seemed liked it ended in the middle of the material part. I also read Tygr got one of his posts deleted in their.

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post #25 of 2251 Old 02-06-2006, 05:39 PM
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Sandman,
I haven't read it in awhile, so I can't remember all that was in it. Is this place you went to in Miami or St Lucie?

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post #26 of 2251 Old 02-07-2006, 12:49 AM
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Bruce,

Of course there are excellent AV products that do not carry the THX or ISF logo. There are many more unfortunately that would never get past the front door of the lab.

THX represents an excellent set of industry standards. Without standards, we cannot measure progress or advance the science of home theater. So, I'm all for standards. Standards advance our business and ultimately yield greater pleasure and value for our clients.

But comparing THX certification on a receiver and THX certification on a screen is apples to oranges. Don't be too quick to paint screens with the same brush as a receiver. The standards that THX has set for screens are quite stringent. They measured both the audio AND video performance of the screen. Anecdotal reports from dealers, industy reviewers/experts and end users indicate to us at least, that the Vutec material would not pass either THX or ISF standards due to excess audio comb filtering and inaccurate color balance. The thread that Alan started on this forum re A Vutec was largely stopped because Alan had lined someone up to run a series of tests in a third party's lab. Those results were NEVER published on the forum. One can only surmise that either the tests were never concluded or not to someone's expectation (read as "standards") and they were withheld from publication. Alan even validated that at one time that virtually no one at Vutec had any first hand recollection of this screen product because it was abandoned by them a long time ago.

You ask " But I would like your opinion on one thing Would Sandman have a better visual experience with a ruby and a cheaper non thx screen or a thx screen and a cheaper projector ?" -- Why frame the issue this way? What if he didn't have to sacrifice anything? As a dedicated do it yourselfer, Sandman should be trying to do what the best professional home theater dealer/integrators do. And that is to reconcile both the audio and video experience. Not one over the other.

Your assumption is that all THX screens are inherently more expensive. While this may or may not be true, one thing is for certain, they pass a very high standard and guarantee the owner a high level of performance. If Sandman can afford a Ruby, why is he willing to sacrifice anything? Why not get the best possible audio AND video experience possible? Making an arbitrary rule that the screen should only be x percentage of the projector's cost is old school thinking.

Projectors are largely made by asian electronics firms. Their entire business model is to drive costs downward every year. Screens however are a different proposition. Largely made of petroleum based vinyl (we all know how gas prices are going through the roof) and expensive skilled labor performing time consuming secondary hand operations to that material. In Screen Research's case, careful attention to the QC of the critical color balance is assured and does not come without a premium.

Assuming the goal of a "better" visual experience is measured in terms of resolution, uniform field field of white (no hotspotting) and accurate color balance (set to a STANDARD -- there's that word again), then by all means, the AT screens by SR will deliver superior performance for Sandman.

However, the real question is not whether Sandman or any one else for that matter shoud merly seek a better visual experience. Instead, why not strive for a better OVERALL experience? With the SR screen you'd be assured of a better OVERALL experience because you sacrifice nothing. No video or audio drop off in performance. You get proper timber matching and better aesthetics with an AT screen. No moire, no audio comb filering and no loss in resolution.

With a big solid screen in the room, you've created another solid boundry in the room that will create more slap echos. treating those acoustic problems does not come without a cost.

Look at it this way... no self respecting audiophile would ever set up a 5.1 SACD or DVD-A music only system with the center channel on the floor would they? Nor would they purposely set up a room with big reflective surfaces that couldn't be treated in some way. The professional reference is with the three front channels behind the screen with the tweeters at 5/8th ratio up from the bottom of the screen etc... Again, someone went to a lot of trouble to study human perception and created a standard here. I wish Sandman well in his quest.

Good viewing and listening...

John Caldwell
President
Grace Motif, Inc
Scottsdale, AZ
www.gracemotif.com
tel: 480-463-4248
fax: 805-856-2212
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post #27 of 2251 Old 02-07-2006, 01:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey John,

Can you send me out a 24" x 24" sample? I'd be glad to give it a try again. I have the biggest thread in the Dedicated Home Theater Construction Forum with Close to 100,000 Views and over 1,000 replies and allot of people are waiting to see what I go with for a screen. Here is my thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7079051

At this point this is how I feel. The Stewart StudioTek 130 Microperf has the Best Picture for a Perforated Screen. The Problem I have with the perf screens is Moire and the fact I need to EQ my System. I have a $20k audio system I'm using in my theater and don't want audio to suffice.

The Weave Samples I got today were equivelant and better than the VuTek as far as clearity and openness without moire. One sample outperformed the VuTek by a fair amount. The weaves I'm experimenting with have a 5% openness and you can see further specs and pictures of the samples in my thread above.

I absolutely do not want to have to sacrifice picture or sound at all. My goal here is to find the best picture and sound possible with a weave type screen. Unfortunately, I sat here with multiple friends that work in the Video business with me, and the ClearPix2 material did not perform well visually with our DLP projector.

Also, allot of guys here rave about the Dazian Coated Celtic Cloth and to me that is plain Garbage Material. It is about as good as using felt IMO. This may have something to do with my type of projector, or my pickyness. But maybe most people here are excited that they can set up an audio transparent screen for $40 and they think the picture looks good enough for the money. I'm not that guy.

For me to Spend G money on a PVC weaved screen, It's gonna have to knock my socks off. Unfortunately my socks are still on.

Ruben

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post #28 of 2251 Old 02-07-2006, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to figure out a cool name for my new screen company :D

I picked up my larger screen samples today to test. I was able to get a better picture of all the weaves I'm testing since it was daytime when I took this shot.

I ran some Tests and the results are In! I will be posting Screen Shots later on tonight so you know I aint BSing about what I'm about to tell you.

Just so you know, myself along with 2 other videophile people came up to these conclusions on the materials we sampled.

For the Testing, we used an Optoma H-79 Darkchip3 DLP Projector connected via DVI to an HTPC running TheaterTek 2.2 with FFdshow and dscaler postprocessing.

Also, please keep in mind these aren't Lab tests done by certified ISF techs. This purely based on the eyes of 3 guys with the love for high quality video. Also pictures will show you results as well.

In the picture I posted Below you see the Vutec Samples on the Left and right (as labled) and our samples in the middle.

Lets start with Sample #1 below,

Sample #1

This sample was one of the original finalists until I got a larger 24" x 36" piece today. This material had a Slight Moire issue, not as bad as the Da-Lite Perfed screen but it was noticable in Extremely bright scenes. It may not of Moired at all if it was a 5% openness weave opposed to being a 10% openness. So we eliminated this one from the line up.

Sample #2

This Sample was the equivelent to the Vutec Material on the Right, EXCEPT our sample Material had better defined picture quality. Images were much more defined in really detailed scenes with Sample # 2. Colors of our sample were also superior to the Vutecs. The Gain was Identicle to the Vutec material.
We tested on a 24" x 36" sample and there was no Moire.

Sample # 3

This will be most likely the one I choose personally.
Everything was dramatically improved over the Vutec Material. Clearity was the best I've seen on all the weaves, Colors popped out intensely and this material has a higher gain due to it being brighter. The Blacks were much Blacker and the whites were much whiter. The Vutec just added a grey, washedout low contrast image to our test scenes.

Even my wife that doesn't know the difference between a Benz and a Ford pointed out the same sample when she walked in. The sample we used had a 10% openness weave so it was double the perf size of the Vutec 5% we compared to. I need to pick up a 5% openness of the Same material to test it as well.

Sample # 4

Lasted 2 seconds on the Wall, wasn't anything I was looking for.

Summary

So to summerize this, Sample #2 and Sample #3 out performed the visual factors of Vutecs Soundscreen according to my self, my 2 videophile friends and my wife, # 3 being the best of all by far. My friends sat there in amazement wondering how the hell these screen companies sell a not so great material for such a big price tag. The Vutec Soundscreen just seems to wash out colors, lower the contrast and lose detail when compared to these 2 samples we tested and it's not a minor difference either.

Now as far as audio testing, we haven't stressed that yet because these weaves have the same openess factors as Vutecs. Meaning, the sound is going to pass through our samples in the same fashion it passes through VuTecs.

I will edit this post later on with Screen shots of the comparisons.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...l/DSC08146.jpg

Here is a couple quick screen shots...

These screen shots have Black GoM behind them. These are extreme close ups, so you will see the screen door as well as the Perfs, this was the only way the camera will show the diffference.

The duller material on the left right above my finger is the Vutec Soundscreen 5 which is 5% openness and the Sample # 3 is on the Right with 10% openness. Notice the dullness of the Vutecs whites and blacks.

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...l/DSC08148.jpg

Here is the Vutec by itself. (Notice Black and white)
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...l/DSC08163.jpg

Here is Sample #3 by itself. (Notice Black and white)
http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...l/DSC08164.jpg

Here is the Vutec (on left) and Sample #3 (on right) Side by Side. See any differences?
Those are my Knuckles on the bottom :)

http://loutrixrecords.com/images/the...l/DSC08172.jpg


Ruben

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post #29 of 2251 Old 02-07-2006, 07:58 PM
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Ruben,
We will be happy to send you a one meter square sample of the CP2 with its accompanying black backing material. Proper testing of Screen Research CP2 should always include this backing material.

Please send me your address and tel # offline at John@stjohngroup.com

We'll be sure to mark the screen in such a way so there is no ambiguity as to which side goes towards the lens.

By the way, if you want to look for moire on all these materials you've collected, the best way to do it is to simply put up anb IRE 100 white test pattern. You do have that right?What sort of coloremetry measuring equipment are you using? What sort of audio test measurement equipment are you using to test for comb filtering?

Please advise.

Good listening and viewing!

John Caldwell
President
Grace Motif, Inc
Scottsdale, AZ
www.gracemotif.com
tel: 480-463-4248
fax: 805-856-2212
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post #30 of 2251 Old 02-07-2006, 08:48 PM
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Could you use a Studiotek 130 or similar non-perf as a reference? It would be nice to find out how much you are losing with a perf.

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