Black Flame vs. Neutral Gray Discussion - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle
"please, let's not get bogged down by whether or not it was appropriate to compare against silverscreen. i think there was nothing wrong with it. the next step should be to throw in some poly and metalics. i made some suggestions in my previous post."

No one is getting bogged down over anything, I was simply responding to MM's post, and I did it in civil manner so I dont see the problem.
My shots were using poly and metallics. I used a full strength BF against a BF minus the colors add medium grey. Remeber in my shots that my screen is already quite grey.
biglyle,
no problem. i just want to see these comparisons proceed in the right direction. you've done your comparison, and i thank you for that. i would like to see mississippiman/pbmaxxx try the same. confirmation of what you've done would say a lot. is there a chance you could repost the formula you used so they can do the same comparison? could you also do some white screen comparisons?
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post #182 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 09:20 AM
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I already said what forumula I used.

As for the white shots, why bother, they prove nothing at all.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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post #183 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 09:39 AM
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Movie what are you actually trying to do ?

I agree that different screen shots are not good comparisons for a couple of reasons but
What the hell would an all white screen prove ?


I am curious in what you are actually trying to prove or LEARN from all this .



Bruce
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post #184 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce can
Movie what are you actually trying to do ?

I agree that different screen shots are not good comparisons for a couple of reasons but
What the hell would an all white screen prove ?


I am curious in what you are actually trying to prove or LEARN from all this .



Bruce
i think that a white screen makes it easier to tell the difference in the brightness that each sample has. also, if shots are taken at different angles in the viewing cone, then we might be able to see differences there too.

i'm trying to learn if black flame is more efficient at getting light back to the viewer as compared to neutral gray+poly or neutral gray+poly+metalics. right now, i have neutral gray+poly on my screen. i wan't to know if i should make the move up to neutral gray+poly+metalics or to black flame.

this also give everyone a chance to see if black flame is really better than the others. right now, i'm leaning to the neutral gray+poly+metalics as biglyle has.
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post #185 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 10:15 AM
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pb_maxxx: Nice shots. How do the same shots look with ambient light?
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post #186 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 11:03 AM
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Based on those screenies, I would throw in 313HC and bet it would be competitive not to mention you can add an extra top coat or 2 to bump the gain if so desired. (Note I haven't tested more than 2 top coats which is almost a 1.0 peak gain.)

313HC

Basically there are 4 ingredients:

- Rustoleum Painters Touch Flat Black Latex #1976 (8oz can) $4
- Kilz2 Latex Primer (Quart) $8
- American Traditions Faux Acrylic Flat Latex Clear Protector#64675 (Quart) $10
- Behr Premium Plus Pearlescent White Opal #751 (Quart) $17
- The Formula with at least enough for a 94" screen possibly up to 110"

Part 1 - Top Coat

-31oz of White Opal Pearl
-10oz of KILZ2
-8oz of the Clear Protector (I was thinking about increasing this to 16oz)
-1oz of the Flat Black

Part 2 - The Base

-22oz of the Kilz 2 ( the remainder of the can)
-1 oz of the flat black (well not exactly maybe just a little more, I really kept adding just a few drops until it was just a hair lighter than the top coat.)


Application:

- 2 Coats of the base.
- 2 Coats of the topcoat. (You may try adding more topcoats to increased gain of course at the expense of viewing cone.....)


Color Bars 313HC vs BOC

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post #187 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:31 PM
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lots of interesting screens for a shoot out.

just thinking of a possible projected image to compare with if a computer was hooked up to the projector.

if one had two long jpeg images of a black to white grey scale, graduated with the graduations numbered ( the more the better ). And also had two similar graduated images of dark blue to light blue, two of dark green to light green and the same for red and yellow.

Now if these 10 images could be easily flipped vertical and horizontal and moved around to line up with the edges of test screens then...

Picking one test screen for a standard you have the blackest black numbered as '0' and the whitest white as '200' or whatever ( maybe 256 ).

So you line up the two test screens in question and have the same coloured scale running along next to each other, one on each test screen. You use the mouse to move the jpeg of one of the bars until you find what the standard 0 on one equals to on the other, what the standard 25 value on the first equals to on the second and continue with about 3 or four more points up to the whitest part. Then do the same with the four colored jpegs.

I'm just thinking it may be interesting to see if the colored jpegs would have the same differences as the grey one and also if there is might be more graduations between the darkest to lightest and be kinda a perceived contrast increase.

say if a white screen had a black '0' = grey screen black '50' ( the grey screens 50 would look like the white screens 0 ), and the whites screens 150 ( of 256 ) was equal to the grey screens 210, then the white screen would 150 increments compared to 160 for the grey screen which would mean......ah I can't think about this right now....

is this making any sense
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post #188 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 12:37 PM
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"is this making any sense"

nope

I highly doubt anyone is going to go through all that trouble. Making up these test panels is a big enough pain in the arse as it is.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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post #189 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 01:13 PM
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I don't know, making test panels seems the major work. Just need to create 5 jpegs and duplicate them, and manuever them around on the desktop. The colors won't be a perfect match but it would just be kinda going blurry eyed and trying to match the brightness at different points.
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post #190 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 01:15 PM
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Interesting

maybe we could do a jpeg with color bars in a 2x2 config so we can compare 4 samples apples to apples at the same time ........

This would allow for comparing color saturation as well as white to black contrast all in one shot.

Test 1 - On axis no light
Test 2 - On axis Flip the light on 1 60watt bulb 10 feet on axis.
Test 3 - Off axis 45 degrees no lights
Test 4 - Off axis 45 degrees with light at 180 degrees from screen.

I could get just about all the info i would need from this to make a pretty good decision with which screen performs the best over all.

313

PS one panel needs to be UPW flat or KIlz 2 in every shot just for a reference.

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post #191 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 01:43 PM
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the ambient light and angle of view would be the two important variables.

I was thinking, like in my case with an aging X1, which may be replaced with a higher lumen projector in a year or two, two gauge how brightness increase affects the samples. Dismount the projector after the first tests and set it up on the table 5 feet in front of the screens to triple those lumens and see the effect.

Also there could be an 'out of the box' projector setting for all samples, and then a shot individually avi'd to each. Guess this is allot of work.
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post #192 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 02:58 PM
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mission, putting the same color bar for consistency on each test panel would be a must to see the consistency ( and it would also be good to rotate the panels to make sure one isn't advantaged by being in the brighter part of the picture ). But just going back to the reasoning behind the long graduated grey and color bars. There is a tendency for white screens to always win out over grey just because by comparing them side by side people usually like the brighter colors better and profess them as more accurate which they are.
But when the grey screen is by itself the mind creates its own references with what its given and a non the less beautiful image is formed. These graduated color bars could demonstrate that maybe in one screen the mid reds are brighter in relation to the darkest green and stuff like that giving the image what seems to be more pop. It could even help tweak future screens with appropriate colors. It might give something substantial as to why translucent colors are better then opaque black as a greying choice. Be neat to have something to plot on a graph anyway. Just recalling what Tryg pointed out about how easily it was to pick a small red flower out from a mainly brown background is easier on some screens then others and stuff...this may be a way to measure for this type of property.
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post #193 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ender611
the ambient light and angle of view would be the two important variables.

I was thinking, like in my case with an aging X1, which may be replaced with a higher lumen projector in a year or two, two gauge how brightness increase affects the samples. Dismount the projector after the first tests and set it up on the table 5 feet in front of the screens to triple those lumens and see the effect.

Also there could be an 'out of the box' projector setting for all samples, and then a shot individually avi'd to each. Guess this is allot of work.
That is a good idea, but outside of a light fusion scenario I can't really see where it would matter. A reflective surface is a reflective surface ;) and that we can calculate using mathmatics!

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post #194 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 03:53 PM
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Biglyle, did you use a mirror for your screens? I think your last shot of yours shows an improvement with BF. I realize it isn't striking, and wouldn't expect it to be, since you did everything else the same but the colors, but I do think it is there. Did you really save that much time by skipping the colors?

I think BO Cloth and SS are the two most common DIY screens so including both would be good.
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post #195 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 06:02 PM
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ender,
I had a htpc hooked up to my pj and used a technique roughly like yours to color correct a mix I'm tinkering with. (I say "had" as my main theater and 2 adjoining rooms are currently under renovation. :( But this last round of discussion has inspired me to get my a$s in gear and hurry up!)

I agree that if anyone already has a htpc, making the darn screen is 95% of the work. After that, comparing a couple of jpegs is a piece of cake.
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post #196 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 08:44 PM
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Marc, took a little while but I slammed 7 colors together with 39 gradients each and made a grey scale of 100 gradients going from 0 to 100 percent. I could see it being a good tweaking tool if you see one color taking a nose dive compared to the rest. Its a little harder telling the mid greens apart but if I move one back and forth against the other on the computer my eyes finally kick in. I need a little more control as I don't seem to pick up allot from screenshots other then one being darker. MMs shot seem to show the BF being a little more contrasty then the grey screen but thats the thing. People have been describing the screens as having a perceived enhanced contrast and yet there's darenp with allot of science saying it can't be. But we're seeing something. If one put just the grey scale to work seeing all 100 graduations of black to white, then put a silver screen up and found the whitest white equal to say 90 and the black that was equal to the white screens 0 to be say 20 then that would stretch the perceived contrast. I think daren explained this to me way back but my memory's not that great ( good thing when it comes to watching repeats :o ). Anyway I might as well tinker since I got a couple old test screens ( white and silverscreen ) to compare to my silverscreen that has some clear, pearlescent and silver in it with a touch of blue. My silverscreen test screen just blends into it sometimes but theres other times when my screen shines. Maybe I can slow things down and at least attach some numbers to it. Maybe a perceived contrast enhancement is coming from the stretch in the colors more so then in the black. Might be all for not but I'll try to get some pictures in the gallery if theres any hope. At least like mission says, it would be nice to have the same picture of color bars on each screen.

And I'm enjoying corel draw again, its a nifty program. Its giving me quite the education in color just getting to know all the tools.
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post #197 of 225 Old 03-14-2006, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mission313
That is a good idea, but outside of a light fusion scenario I can't really see where it would matter. A reflective surface is a reflective surface ;) and that we can calculate using mathmatics!
contentment comes from penetration

:o
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post #198 of 225 Old 03-16-2006, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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mississippiman, pbmaxxx,
have you guys had a chance to set up any more screen comparisons? i think we all would like to see what you are planning to do. any comments about the suggestions and ideas that i and others have posted?
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post #199 of 225 Old 03-16-2006, 05:29 PM
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Sit back and hold on a spell. I'm not going to piece meal this thing, so I will be getting the necessary items collected, then I have to come up with a scenario that will meet with most people's approval.

That isn't going to happen yesterday, or by early next week, but more on the order of about 2 weeks from now at the earliest, or 3 weeks from this Friday at about the latest.

The Sony Chroma View should be here by next week's end, and around that time I'll be able to paint at least 4 - 5 samples. I'm not getting any help from any of the other "entrants", so PB_ & I are trying to arrange collecting what is needed. If anybody wants to see any specific MFG sample I have not already related to, then acquire it & send it, or let it fade out of consideration.

As for overviewing the suggestions already made, I haven't done so, and if you could compile them into one PM to me, then I assure you they will then be duly noted and commented upon as promptly as possible. Who knows...., one or two might even float? ;)

As I said, it'll happen. I'm committed and out on the proverbial limb now, and if I don't do as I've promised for anything less than a cerebral hemorrage, that will just about be the end of that, eh? :o Even then, I'll need a note from my Doctor. :D

Depending on the end results, it still might be "The End". Or the "Beginning." Or maybe just cause for a good yawn. :rolleyes:

We'll see. :eek:

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #200 of 225 Old 03-16-2006, 05:49 PM
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If that's OK with everyone, that is. :confused:

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #201 of 225 Old 03-17-2006, 07:11 AM
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I can fedex you a 313HC sample or the base and top coat.

I think I have enough leftovers to do a panel.

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post #202 of 225 Old 03-17-2006, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
If that's OK with everyone, that is. :confused:
thanks mississippiman. i've already started to compile the ideas that have been talked about here on this thread.

i want to leave the discussion open for the weekend to finish gathering ideas for the comparisons. so next week, i can finish putting the info together in a summary and will post it on the thread so everyone can make sure i didn't miss something or state something incorrectly.

so, everyone, keep the ideas coming. the deadline is monday morning (3/20).
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post #203 of 225 Old 03-17-2006, 12:53 PM
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Mission 313, you've got a PM

Movielvr2006, you might want to extend that deadline to Tuesday or Wendesday to let a few have time to consider. The Weekend is always slow on this Forum.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #204 of 225 Old 03-17-2006, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
Mission 313, you've got a PM

Movielvr2006, you might want to extend that deadline to Tuesday or Wendesday to let a few have time to consider. The Weekend is always slow on this Forum.
ok, new deadline for suggestions and ideas for the comparisons is wednesday morning (3/22).
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post #205 of 225 Old 03-17-2006, 01:45 PM
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Ahhhhhh.........., to paint perhaps to dream.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...h_Image048.jpg

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #206 of 225 Old 03-18-2006, 09:20 AM
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Interested to see the difference between the black flame over a mirror vs black flame over the ultra pure white high gloss. Missisippimud over the mirror was similar to silver metallic, not in reflection, but in the darkening of blacks but with upw gloss, I'm curious if there's any advantage to the white other then being the most reflective of the color. Just playing around with painted substrate ideas.

I know the theme of this thread was inviting proof that the colors of the black flame had an advantage over grey but I personally don't even question that they do. Just a trust, respect thing I guess.

Is there any screen idea to go against mission313s? Kinda easy for it to take first place in its class....oh well sure interested to see that one anyway.

There has been some misgivings expressed about test screens and side by sides vs seeing the whole screen by itself. I was impressed with the way clarence presented cmra's stuff way back...

clarence's white vs grey

Can't really ask mississippiman to present them that way, whatever the results and presentation method will be telling but might be an idea to drop clarence a line and a few pics as a second way of viewing things.
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post #207 of 225 Old 03-27-2006, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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well, nobody has posted anything recently and the deadline to put in suggestions for the comparison has come and passed. i've cut and pasted some of the comments/suggestion i found in this thread. if i've forgotten anyone, please speak up now. the following are the comments i felt pertained to paint formulations that would be a good test against black flame.

Quote:
biglyle (post #136)

50ml delta ceramcoat pearl
50ml delta ceramcoat metallic silver
50 ml folk art sterling silver metallic
50 ml delta ceramcoat white
50 ml minwax acrylic poly - satin
100 ml delta ceramcoat interior matte varnish
1 tsp delta ceramcoat burnt umber
25 ml water

rolls like a champ, and after a few days of curing looks as good as any screen I have seen.

EDITED - SHOULD BE 100ML of the MATTE VARNISH, NOT 50ML


mississippiman (post #147)

3 examples of Black Flame. The darkest on a Full Size Mirror. a "Lite" and "Super Lite" on Do-Able Boards.

A reference Gray screen (newly painted with the majority's suggestion)
A Sony Chroma View.
Benven's CG Plus & CGII
BigLyle's something, if applicable.
Mission 313's best offering.
At least one other example from anybody.

a 800 Lumen PJ
a 1100 to 1500 Lumen PJ
a 2500+ Lumen PJ

I can, if I do this here close to home, assure that all the examples will be at least 24" x 36" and can all be shown simultaneously, imposed upon the 140" screen shown in this Post. The screen shown here is 122" x 69" so there is plenty of room to do 'em all at once, besides doing 3-4 at a time.


benven (post #149)

MM thanks for the shots. The BF has a bit more pop than the gray screen. However, I would like to see a higher gain gray screen in the comparison. You can obtain a Firehawk sample quite easily. I for one would like to see it in your shootout. CG II would be a good mix to compare against. It isn't the light buster that CG Plus is, but there are the cone issues with the higher gain CG Plus.


schooner2000 (post #164)

Could one not use SS as a base and add some SM and Minwax or similar to get the same results but easier?


Camelot_One (post #165)

Exactly what I'd like to know. I am assuming you have the full BF Light Fusion setup for the main screen, with the LF portion making up a large part of the difference in color quality against the plain flat SS. I know it defeats a good portion of the design idea, but I'd like to see BF against SS on a hardboard, or perhaps with the SS base - SS/Minwax mix top coat.


movielvr2006 (post #177)

personally, i don't think it's appropriate to just use screenshots from movies. the content on one test panel is going to be different than on the other. i would prefer to see some white screens also. i think another good comparison would be white text against a black background.

i have a question for those taking photos (mississippiman, pbmaxxx, biglyle, etc.). how are you taking the photos with your cameras? are you using spot metering? i would suggest using spot metering on the black flame before taking the picture. if that is consistently done, then the comparisons will be that much better.

if anyone could suggest how we can standardize the ambient light comparisons also, i would like to hear that.

i would like to see the following comparisons also:

Mix 1
neutral gray latex - 75%
minwax polycrylic - 25%
(try to match the same shade of the black flame)


Mix 2
silver+pearl metalic - 55%
neutral gray latex - 16%
minwax polycrylic - 20%
water - 9%
(again, try to match the shade of black flame)


i think these two mixes would tell us a lot.


mission313 (post #186)

Based on those screenies, I would throw in 313HC and bet it would be competitive not to mention you can add an extra top coat or 2 to bump the gain if so desired. (Note I haven't tested more than 2 top coats which is almost a 1.0 peak gain.)

313HC

Basically there are 4 ingredients:

- Rustoleum Painters Touch Flat Black Latex #1976 (8oz can) $4
- Kilz2 Latex Primer (Quart) $8
- American Traditions Faux Acrylic Flat Latex Clear Protector#64675 (Quart) $10
- Behr Premium Plus Pearlescent White Opal #751 (Quart) $17
- The Formula with at least enough for a 94" screen possibly up to 110"

Part 1 - Top Coat

-31oz of White Opal Pearl
-10oz of KILZ2
-8oz of the Clear Protector (I was thinking about increasing this to 16oz)
-1oz of the Flat Black

Part 2 - The Base

-22oz of the Kilz 2 ( the remainder of the can)
-1 oz of the flat black (well not exactly maybe just a little more, I really kept adding just a few drops until it was just a hair lighter than the top coat.)


Application:

- 2 Coats of the base.
- 2 Coats of the topcoat. (You may try adding more topcoats to increased gain of course at the expense of viewing cone.....)


ender611 (post #192)

mission, putting the same color bar for consistency on each test panel would be a must to see the consistency ( and it would also be good to rotate the panels to make sure one isn't advantaged by being in the brighter part of the picture ). But just going back to the reasoning behind the long graduated grey and color bars. There is a tendency for white screens to always win out over grey just because by comparing them side by side people usually like the brighter colors better and profess them as more accurate which they are.
But when the grey screen is by itself the mind creates its own references with what its given and a non the less beautiful image is formed. These graduated color bars could demonstrate that maybe in one screen the mid reds are brighter in relation to the darkest green and stuff like that giving the image what seems to be more pop. It could even help tweak future screens with appropriate colors. It might give something substantial as to why translucent colors are better then opaque black as a greying choice. Be neat to have something to plot on a graph anyway. Just recalling what Tryg pointed out about how easily it was to pick a small red flower out from a mainly brown background is easier on some screens then others and stuff...this may be a way to measure for this type of property.
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post #208 of 225 Old 03-27-2006, 12:14 PM
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There is still plenty of time. I'm sure everyone would like to see the results of PSennets efforts, and those appear to be about two weeks away. Any test examples, color bars, or such that can be provided will be used. Otherwise, it'll be just me, my HVLP, and whatever can get sprayed to represent it's DIY application.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #209 of 225 Old 03-29-2006, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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mississippiman,
can you give us all an update on where you are with the comparisons? have you reviewed the summary and made any decisions on which comparisons to do?

ender611,
can you provide mississippiman with the graphics file for color bars? as i recall you had worked this out already.
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post #210 of 225 Old 03-29-2006, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
mississippiman,
can you give us all an update on where you are with the comparisons? have you reviewed the summary and made any decisions on which comparisons to do?
Well...., no comparisons done as of yet. ;)

I have made the final arrangements for the Sony Chroma Views' appearance. I want to provide that screen with a PJ intended to do it justice, as far as Sony's recommendations require, lest it's performance, or lack thereof be be considered not indicative of it's true "colors'. The pricing for Sony is now more along the lines of a 'option' for someone on a budget to consider, IF making a DIY AL Screen was not to be considered, and IF they had no other choice than a SuperNova.

There would be no Mfg screens at all, nor really necessary except that the "Feel Good" part of DIY is quite dependent on tying the "real savings" part of it all into the phrase "I get as good or better performance, but for sooooo much less...." riposte. Ok, I suppose since I and a few others feel I can take good representitive shots, that many can be able to see and make their own judgements. But so will a few, who will dissect the lighting, camera, photographer :eek: , and of course, any determinaton I personally make. I might just not make any. Images can express themselves just fine.

Otherwise, why I'm I doing this? I'd welcome independent viewers but so far.....?

I've acquired several items in the last few days. I have enough 1/4 Smooth Hardboard to use for any mix that requires a good Primer . I have 2 sizable pieces of Plexi Mirror . 1 piece of 5' x 10' Parkland. I have to source locally any requests that involve Milky White, Do-Able, or such.

Once I have everything assembled, and then look at my schedule, I can pin down a time and work towards it. When I have whatever examples painted & ready on hand, along with whatever is sent me, then I still must arrange for the use of the Theater room with the 140" BFLF Mid-Hue /Z4 to act as the staging area/Backdrop.

I also want to wait to see what develops with PSennet's effort as well, for it would be non productive to worry with anything that might get the proverbial "Boot" (SS?) or that is adjudges a good application, but NOT one specifically noted for it's AL abilities.

I guess then that would put this all coming together sometime in the 3rd week of April. That's pretty close to my original guess, and should not vary at this point by more than a week on the tale end.

Oh yeah, I skimmend the post with the summary, but haven't made any final decisions, as per my previously commented reasons. But soon. Soon.




Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006
ender611,
can you provide mississippiman with the graphics file for color bars? as i recall you had worked this out already.
Yeah. I have only Video Essentials, and I'd prefer something static that doesn't require anything but changing the PJs and the Screens' configuration.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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