Black Flame vs. Neutral Gray Discussion - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 225 Old 03-29-2006, 06:45 PM
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This might not be easy. I created all the color bars in coreldraw 9 and they are easy to work with ( well sorta ) within the program. Can easily zoom in so one square of the 39 color increments fills the screen or zoom out and slide the duplicated bars up and down next to each other. I used corels default colors and therefore only ended up with 39 increments but could manually make 100 increment ones. Say for cyan, increment cyan from 0 to 255 with magenta and yellow at 0, then equally increment magenta and cyan until 255 is had by all for the dark end. Each box has to be numbered from 1 to 100 to keep track as you slide them ( each over their own test panel ) till you find the equal in brightness and log it. Its quite a major undertaking, and you have to fight off optical illusions by zooming in and out and moving the bars to home in.

There is something interesting here. My silverscreen screen is a little fancied up and I compared to a test panel of pure silverscreen. When I threw the test panel up during movies it was kind of hard to make out the difference most times. Sometimes the blacks were lighter on my screen and sometimes not. Something seemed better but it was hard to finger. My screen was a shade lighter and thats all I could say about it.

Using 100 squares of black incremented from 0 to 100 percent black my screen was only 1 notch lighter for most of the bar except the extreme light end where my screen became exceptionally brighter. With the color bars it was different as the lightest end was only a couple notches lighter but the middle ( some colors lower middle, some colors upper middle ) is where it really popped.

Thing is comparing silversceen to my screen which will never be painted again isn't something of interest. But it is interesting that such a small amount of silver, pearlescence, glossy clear etc is making the middle to lower colors pop so much. The RS_maxmudd revs it up tens times that. I think it would be good to have a white test panel, a 5% grey panel, a 10% grey panel and maybe a 15. These would have to be really neutral greys as I'm sure the pure silverscreen would have areas of pop compared to a neutral grey.

I was taking pictures and if I ever find my upload cable I can maybe make this a little more visual but just to give an idea with some colors of silverscreen compared to my screen which is silverscreen mixed with blue, silver etc. I'm a notch lighter in all colors but it takes off in the middle

a couple free test pattern things:

philips test pattern generator 3.11

nokia monitor test
LL
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post #212 of 225 Old 05-26-2006, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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well, it's been a while since i've posted on this thread that i started. i came to the realization that i needed to try some things on my own. here is the mix that i finally tried last night:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.0 floz - Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601
8.0 floz - Delta Ceramcoat Silver Metallic #02603
8.0 floz - Minwax Polycrylic - Satin Finish
3.5 floz - Glidden "Snowfield" Flat (a very light neutral gray)
25 mL - Any Flat Black Latex (add last, until desired gray is achieved)
4.0 floz - Water
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(everything fits in a 1 quart container and is probably enough for 3 to 4 coats on a 90" screen. use the water to rinse the containers used for the metallics, poly, and "snowfield" paints, then add into the final mix. i used a 10 mL medicine syringe for the flat black addition.)

this mix is essentially based on pbmaxxx's and mississippiman's mixes for rs-mmmax and black flame so a good deal of the credit goes to them. however, i've never fully bought into the colored pigments that are used in black flame, so i simply replaced them with lamp black (via flat black latex) and maintained color balance by using neutral gray "snowfield" instead of UPW. nothing really creative, just some logic applied.

for the substrate, i used smooth hardboard (Lowes) and painted two coats of "snowfield" for the basecoat. i then applied two coats of the above mix allowing for adequate drying time between coats. all of the application was done with a 6" foam roller. it would be better if you have the proper spraying equipment but i used what i have and achieved acceptable results.

i recently changed my setup and ceiling mounted my projector. i now have a 90" diagonal 16:9 image. in my opinion, this gives the best positioning when using "gain" type screens. i'm projecting with an eiki eip-1000t, 854x480, 1000 ansi lumen rating. probably getting closer to 500 lumens in economy mode and calibrated for dvd movies.

image quality? it holds up to the same claims that mississippiman and pbmaxx have made all along with black flame. deep blacks without crushing whites, image depth, correct colors, and some muting of the screen door effect. it works really well for my particular setup. i'm now a firm believer that the metallics can be used beneficially for their "gain" properties, when properly balanced with other light scattering paints (flat latex).

as for different setups, only one variable need be changed...the flat black latex addition. for larger screens (>90") and less lumen output, use less black. for smaller screens, you can use more black.

i hope this is helpful for some and a confirmation for others who have thought or experimented along the same lines.
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post #213 of 225 Old 05-26-2006, 11:45 AM
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Congratulations on your efforts. I know you have spent a great deal of time working thru this methodology and concluded benefits to the Metallic paints as to gain improvement. As you noted building on the excellent knowledge platform of Pbmax and MM efforts.

Would it be possible to post some split screen shots comparing this mix with say a neutral gray of the same gray density and gain without the addition of the metallic.

And also a split screen of the two taken with projector off one with say just moderate room lighting and one with flash. (much the same way I did the gain adjustment photos)

I think those couple test shots done in a split screen picture would really point out the improvements. The advantage of a split screen image would be that no matter what the cam did in its auto mode setting it would be consistent with both samples.

I know you have been comparing the metallic to the neutral gray scenario over the last few months and we have discussed in great detail the virtues of both while trying to keep “simplicity†as one of the unseen ingredients in the paint mix. If you had to venture a guess at this point as to percent of viewing performance increases on your own personal setup with your equipment gray/poly gain vs. gray/poly/metallic gain what would your guess be?
I know going from matte neutral gray in my case to the addition of a gain adjustment thru the addition of just the poly I benchmarked it by eye in the 5 to 10% range. And I know any such guess is purely a ballpark number but would still be interesting to hear what you felt it might be.

Once again congrats on the good work


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post #214 of 225 Old 05-26-2006, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415
Congratulations on your efforts. I know you have spent a great deal of time working thru this methodology and concluded benefits to the Metallic paints as to gain improvement. As you noted building on the excellent knowledge platform of Pbmax and MM efforts.

Would it be possible to post some split screen shots comparing this mix with say a neutral gray of the same gray density and gain without the addition of the metallic.

And also a split screen of the two taken with projector off one with say just moderate room lighting and one with flash. (much the same way I did the gain adjustment photos)

I think those couple test shots done in a split screen picture would really point out the improvements. The advantage of a split screen image would be that no matter what the cam did in its auto mode setting it would be consistent with both samples.

I know you have been comparing the metallic to the neutral gray scenario over the last few months and we have discussed in great detail the virtues of both while trying to keep “simplicity†as one of the unseen ingredients in the paint mix. If you had to venture a guess at this point as to percent of viewing performance increases on your own personal setup with your equipment gray/poly gain vs. gray/poly/metallic gain what would your guess be?
I know going from matte neutral gray in my case to the addition of a gain adjustment thru the addition of just the poly I benchmarked it by eye in the 5 to 10% range. And I know any such guess is purely a ballpark number but would still be interesting to hear what you felt it might be.

Once again congrats on the good work
Bud,
thanks for your comments. simplicity and cost have always driven what i try...and do. you can see it in this new mix as well, built off of what others have accomplished or tried. in this case it was simplified enough where the bottle sizes were exact (pearl, silver, poly). the only things i actually had to measure were the latex paints. i'll try to put together some screen shots comparing this latest mix to the gray/poly mix i was using previously. they both appear to be about the same gray level.

when it comes to improvement of the gray/poly/metallic versus the gray/poly, i'm going to wait until i've taken some photos to make a guess. i would prefer that my "guess" is somewhat educated before posting here. i've not had a chance to evaluate the gray/poly since i moved the projector from table to ceiling. when i moved it to the ceiling i was only projecting on the glidden "snowfield", and this new mix as of last night. i had to build a bigger screen because of the size increase :)
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post #215 of 225 Old 05-30-2006, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by movielvr2006
Bud,
thanks for your comments. simplicity and cost have always driven what i try...and do. you can see it in this new mix as well, built off of what others have accomplished or tried. in this case it was simplified enough where the bottle sizes were exact (pearl, silver, poly). the only things i actually had to measure were the latex paints. i'll try to put together some screen shots comparing this latest mix to the gray/poly mix i was using previously. they both appear to be about the same gray level.

when it comes to improvement of the gray/poly/metallic versus the gray/poly, i'm going to wait until i've taken some photos to make a guess. i would prefer that my "guess" is somewhat educated before posting here. i've not had a chance to evaluate the gray/poly since i moved the projector from table to ceiling. when i moved it to the ceiling i was only projecting on the glidden "snowfield", and this new mix as of last night. i had to build a bigger screen because of the size increase :)
this is a follow up on my last post...

i've not had a chance to make the comparison screenshots. my gray/poly sample is too dark in comparison to the gray/poly/metallic mix (See post 210). i need to lighten it up a bit until it matches.

i do have some other comments to make as i've painted a third coat and have observed the new mix over the weekend.

i realized that i had too many roller marks after the second coat. i wet sanded the second coat with a 320 grit wet sanding sponge. all of the sanding was done in the vertical orientation. it was a light sanding with 3 passes over the entire surface. i then washed the screen down with a damp cloth. putting the third (and final) coat on, i paid attention to rolling technique. when rolling, all finishing passes should be made from top to bottom. also, where the handle of the roller enters the roller, should be kept towards the unpainted surface. this part of the roller receives more pressure. lighter pressure needs to be applied to the freshly painted side. i used a 6" foam roller. i couldn't find the synthetic 9" roller that pbmaxx recommends. probably best to use his rolling method if you can. otherwise, spray if you can.

the new mix does decrease in brightness as you move off axis. i suspected this all along. however, it does not decrease so much, even at extreme angles to make viewing impossible. it does look pretty good within the primary 45 degrees of viewing cone. image is bright with good blacks in ambient light. blacks are really dark with all the lights off. dark details are still present however, not muted.
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post #216 of 225 Old 06-28-2006, 10:11 AM
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I thought I would repost to this thread to bring it back into the light of day. (No ambient light pun intended)

I was just wondering if there are any new insights or more testing being done with this. Or if there is anything I could do to help.

I’m actually contemplating brewing a Gray/Poly/Metallic mix that would be comparative to the Neutral Gray/ Poly mix I am currently shooting to. I’m not sure what recipe to use though to approximate the same gray level and also gain to what I have now.

If anyone wants to offer suggestions as to how to make the two mixes that will end up having comparable properties I would be happy to try. I have leftover paint and topcoat mix. But I’m afraid if I were to compare that to adding some metallic additives to that I would no longer be comparing apples to apples as even if the color didn’t change that much my thinking is that the gain would.

I have a point of reference (if only in my head) as to the ratio of poly to paint and the expected gain resulting from it. If someone knowledgeable in the world of metallic additives could give me a rough idea of how much equals how much poly or how much combined metallic/poly would equal a the effect of poly alone I would be willing to do the testing here.

If there were some other property that the metallic offers other than gain improvement and someone would like to explain that I would be interested in reading their thoughts.


Bud

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post #217 of 225 Old 07-26-2006, 07:41 PM
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I was wondering what happened to all of the testing also. This started back in March. Any news? I have done my comparisons. Waiting patiently.................

Meow.
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post #218 of 225 Old 07-28-2006, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
The previously posted images on the first page of this thread are NOT validated as being Black Flame (...yetch!) so fergetabowdum! In due respect to the author of this thread, there was no intercourse with him that I'm aware of, and no way to validate what or how well he duplicated the Mix or the application
If application is so stringent, is this truly a DIY application? How much does application affect the performance of the mix? Please elaborate.

Quote:
Now for the "meat".

BF utilizes multible Pigments in a translucent suspension that augment specific wavelengths of light.

Quote:
The combination of being able to boost reflected Contrast while maintaining color "PoP" works to deliver an image that in "normal" ambient light closely matches the viewed performance of a conventional screen viewed in the dark. Newer PJs with 3000:1+ CR ratios are making the job easier to accomplish, for enhanced CR helps battle ambient light in and of itself.
MM, these are statements you made in the Comparison DNP supernova, BFLF DIY, plain wall in ambient light thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=660738&page=1

You still haven't answered any of the questions I have asked, in the thread linked above, regarding your statements. I believe this would be the right thread for discussing this.

Also, could you please provide an update for your shootout. It seems like you were very close at the end of March to getting all of the screens. Just wondering is all.

Meow.
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post #219 of 225 Old 07-28-2006, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven
If application is so stringent, is this truly a DIY application? How much does application affect the performance of the mix? Please elaborate.

It is, certainly just as much as specific care must be taken to build the more complex Aluminum Tube frames, or Vacum assisted Torus designs. If we would have ever said it was easy, then we would have certainly been leading others down the garden path. But we never stated anything of that sort, but rather the opposite, and got blasted for not giving DIY'er enough credit to accomplish it. That mostly referred to creating the BF Mix from scratch, but I have always advocated that anybody starting such a project up ask questions first, and I've typed my fingertips ( 2 of 'em at least...) to the bone accomodating such.

Just as in the original Light Fusion, Black Flame on a Mirror or over a Semi-Gloss substrate still demands a even coating of a somewhat exacting thickness to present itself optimally.

However, I stand in error for the comment I made that you posted above, because I had forgotten that the BFLF mentioned in the comparision was in fact a screen I myself had painted, using the very first BF Mix configuration. What was NOT related by the Author, or considered in the results was the fact that the BFLF was specifically painted for the lower lumens provided by the Panny 900u, and so being was not nearly as dark a hue as would have been comparible to the DNP. Of course, other aspects prevailent in the DNP's design also work to allow it the leeway to perform better at lower lumens than a similarly hued Black Flame, further presenting a disparity that goes right along with the extreme difference in monetary outlay between the two.

I revised my posting to exclude the error, and related such to set the record straight.



MM, these are statements you made in the Comparison DNP supernova, BFLF DIY, plain wall in ambient light thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=660738&page=1

You still haven't answered any of the questions I have asked, in the thread linked above, regarding your statements. I believe this would be the right thread for discussing this.


I do not. A Thread specif to Black Flame where the posted info can be focused is the appropriate venue


Also, could you please provide an update for your shootout. It seems like you were very close at the end of March to getting all of the screens. Just wondering is all.
It should seem obvious since all seem to be aware of my injury and convalescence since June 7th. Add to that the extreme backlog of my personal work, as well as my receiving not a single offer from anyone as to providing anything related to their own applications, and the task remains a daunting on for me to consider and/or accomplish at present. I CAN do it all, but it's not an easy thing to do at 100%, with all cylinders firing. At present, it's completely impossible. :(

I am however somewhat enthused at the recent addition of the Color Bar Examples now available, as offered up by BCortez, for when such testing/comparisons do occur, they will serve to be something many more will feel is "validatable" information, far more than images from Movie DVDs.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #220 of 225 Old 07-28-2006, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan
I do not. A Thread specif to Black Flame where the posted info can be focused is the appropriate venue
Here it is:

BF Explained?
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post #221 of 225 Old 07-28-2006, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan

I guess then that would put this all coming together sometime in the 3rd week of April. That's pretty close to my original guess, and should not vary at this point by more than a week on the tale end.
MM, I do understand that you are hurt and would never expect you to undertake something like this. Beleive, I have recently had my fair share of health issues. Anyway, the original date was the end of April. Again, just curious what progress was made between that date and the date of your injury.

Meow.
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post #222 of 225 Old 07-28-2006, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven
I was wondering what happened to all of the testing also. This started back in March. Any news? I have done my comparisons. Waiting patiently.................
Benven
Just reading thru a very good thread again that I had the privilege to have shared in the exchange of ideas. There have been a lot of thought provoking throughout this thread.

The reason I quoted your earlier post and somehow I missed it but it seems you have done some comparisons on your own. Did you start a thread or have you posted screen shots on some thread that I can view? I have been waiting for someone to copy the BF mix and show some comparison photos. What did you compare BF to? and did you do a split frame test anything like I described above? The Tiddler screen shots the other day were done exactly like I would like to see a good BF comparison done straight on and at edge of viewing cone and at extreme cone. Then done in controlled light zero and with levels of ambient. I have seen your ambient shots and they look impressive but would love seeing the comparison you did to BF and also the off axis comparison. Was it your mix you used to compare to or some of the other basic grays? I believe the assertion is that BF is basically a gray screen and what I have been hoping for is the side by side with a properly balanced neutral gray that has been closely maximized to the projectors lumens and then likewise a BF balanced the same. Sometimes I wish I had more tinker time or I would undertake just such a study.

Anyway please share the link where your comparison is or if you haven’t posted yet please do. I’m sure I speak for many when I say we would like to see the side by sides you have done.


Bud

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post #223 of 225 Old 07-28-2006, 06:03 PM
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Here is the thread. The latest thread CGIII, is the one with the BF Panel. I am not claiming it to be a light buster, but IMO, it is more viewable in daytime conditions. Even though it washes out a little because it is a light silver colour, not a dark gray colour. I had some side shots, but they are on the other computer and I'm too lazy to get them and post them right now. If the public would like to see them, I will oblige. Otherwise, I will just let things be with MM's comparison. I asked Alan to shut the thread down so no more posting on that thread.

CGIII

These 2 threads are of my other work. You can see the comparisons to other manufacturer and DIY screens.

CGII

Original Canadian Gray

Meow.
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post #224 of 225 Old 07-28-2006, 06:07 PM
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Oh, I forgot to add, that the projector was reset to factory default for the shots.

Meow.
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post #225 of 225 Old 07-29-2006, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven
MM, I do understand that you are hurt and would never expect you to undertake something like this. Beleive, I have recently had my fair share of health issues. Anyway, the original date was the end of April. Again, just curious what progress was made between that date and the date of your injury.
One issue was that during late April/early May, we/I were all expecting the other Shoot Out effort to be undertaken, and I wanted to let that go first. In the meanwhile, I made arrangements for a suitable venue, and called out a few favors from Customers to borrow a few select PJs for a day or so. I also acquired plenty of substrate to work with.

Somewhat unfortunately, after having asked for samples, a few flatly stated they would refuse to provide such. That would have left me to my own devices to whip up "ALL" those mixes and THAT would provide a degree of uncertainty in the minds of the other "non-participants" as to if the processes were done correctly. The painting presented no issues. Reconstructing all the mixes was/is something altogether different. It also seemed a little unfair as PB_Maxxx always was willing to provide a genuine sample for tests. It also adds no small extra expense and time to the equation, something that was always considered by and of others, but left ignored in my case. Perhaps conveniently, perhaps inadvertently, but ignored nonetheless.

Beyond that, my usual work & travels continued, and then the mishap occurred. It was and is my intent to do a ShootOut/Test that would pass scrutiny, one that involved something more than just "Your's vs Mine". left to do it all alone, the original timetable was impossible anyway. Perhaps now a few others would reconsider and step up to make it possible.

We'll see. In any case, upcoming Trade/Home Shows, a "Off Site" presence at CEDIA, and necessary work must take precedent.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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