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post #91 of 143 Old 12-18-2006, 05:09 PM
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I had a thought. I could reset my colors and all calibration numbers back to 0. Then measure the light from the PJ not being reflected. Then take a second set of measures to see what is being reflected from the screen.

I think this is a better scientific approach than just guessing. Any other thoughts ?
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post #92 of 143 Old 12-18-2006, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Bean-66

It sounds like you are seeing and doing actual measurements on the blue push lots of others have complained about on SS. Or at least your version of a (silver screen light) I'm assuming the mix rates you used were for a gallon of paint.

As for doing a measurement of light coming to the screen and then coming off the screen if you have equipment that can do that by all means do. I don't know about the HD72 but I am learning of late that most projectors are set up to produce a cooler color temp than 6500 out of the box. It seems they take some liberties with these settings as they are trying to get very white, whites.
I know you have the equipment on hand to do this testing and calibration. But if you had to adjust this just to suit your eye as to best image where would your settings be with the mix you painted .

Just so we know also what is the lighting like in your room during viewing?

IMO if you are trying to get to a neutral with lampblack as the major pigment I would leave the umber out totally. And look to something like the yellow oxide as the correcting pigment. Or a mix like wbassett found that are standard off the shelf paint colors that used LB and gold pigments, the mixes for both of them are up on this page or the one before it.

It would be interesting to calibrate as you have done to a mix with and without the umber and see how much change there is.

Good luck and keep us posted


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post #93 of 143 Old 12-18-2006, 10:38 PM
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Bud,

Well I spent a few hours tonite picking up some supplies. Had the paint man at HD lookup the Sherwin wiliams gray screen sw7071 and convert that to an HD UPW,1050 base:
(mixes are for a gallon)
LB 0 32 0
Perm Yellow 0 4 0
Umber 0 8 0

I also had him mix up my custom:
LB 0 22 0
YO 0 6 0
UM 0 6 0

Rolled them out this evening onto some cardboard stock. They look pretty close, but they still need to dry.

In the mean time I turned the Sensor and let the PJ light stream hit it directly. I decided to get it to track at 65K. Which was relatively simple to do.
I'll just be posting RGB for contrast and brightness.

Direct: 6 0 -7 1 0 0
Screen: 7 0 -7 1 0 0

So from this I stand corrected the custom mix did not cause much of a difference to the reflective grey scale. However, I still need to look more closely at why the color is so saturated. And the Luminance tracking is way off.

So what does this tell us. My initial statements regarding my mix having a blue push were way off. In reality there seems to be a slight loss of red ( or b/g push) probaly due to the small amount of umber in the original mix.
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post #94 of 143 Old 12-20-2006, 08:01 AM
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I had bonus money burning a whole in my pocket...
Still received no response from Glidden...
My projector was grimacing at me for being projected on a forest green wall-LOL...

I went to Rockler this past Saturday and picked up their "house brand" HVLP sprayer. Comes with two different size nozzles- REALLY bad manual with this machine as it does not even mention two different sizes. Looks like about 1.4mm and 2.0mm. I immediately swapped to the smaller 1.4-ish size. Still on sale at Rockler.com for $80- highly recommended and great for other projects around the house

What did I paint with??? so much for simple. I mixed up some RS-MMMaxx Ambient Light version per the late October update from "RS-MMMAxx Questions" thread. I picked up an $11 Home Depot 1/8" Thrifty Tile which is a gloss white. I figured dirt cheap substrate and nice even gloss white finish to start with. By the way- this stuff hotspots like crazy- it was real good for showing my wife what hotspotting is and why it is bad-LOL.

My cheapo HVLP gun worked magnificently. It is only a 2 stage turbine so not meant for pushing thick material. The Rockler machine includes a viscosity cup and I made the judgement call to thin out the RS-MMaxx mix quite a bit to get it close to the machine's viscosity spec. I had to add an extra 4 oz of water! But no ill effects- First coat was a quick duster coat. Since my mix was so thin and I am so anal I actually did 4 lightish coats as I did not want any drips! Paint turned out 99% of perfect (I can always find a lil' something).

Screen has been up 2 days now and I do not think I will be doing any furthur investigation on the grey Glidden mixes. Definitely has some "pop" to it. Ambient performance is pretty darn good. Dark performance is very, very good.

If Glidden does respond (which unfortunately seems unlikely now) I will definitely carry the torch and report my findings. Big thanks to the board and especially MM and PBMaxx. I'm no fanboy as I think MM must be a partial lunatic, takes one to know one :-) , but I am sure appreciating all his hard, hard work. pb-Maxxx too. THANKS GUYS!
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post #95 of 143 Old 12-20-2006, 08:21 AM
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Test results: only RGB controlls were adjusted to achieve a D65. I purposely did not adjust green leves from the base. Since i wanted to see relative to green how much blue/red were affected.

Recalibrated for my "base screen" = UPW, LB 0-12-0, UM 0-4-0
my RGB values to achieve D65k. 6 , -2, -9

Behr "Custom" UPW, LB 0-22-0 YO 0-6-0 UM 0-6-0
RGB to achieve D65K 6, -2, -7

Behr (SW gray screen) LB 0-32-0 PY 0-4-0 UM 0-8-0
RGB to achieve D65K 7, -2, -8

My interpretation:
The Behr custom had no shift in red vs the base. It did have less of a blue push since the blue required increassing.

The Behr version of Grey screen had a less red since red needed increasing and t had less of a blue push than the base since blue was decreased.

My thoughts overall that the custom was a step in the right direction. The "Grey Screen" was too dark for my tastes and caused the whites to be dirty looking and not real clean. Its tough to tell however against only a 2' x 2' samples.

If I was going to pick one of these as a starting point.. I think the "Custom" mix above is pretty good at least for my PJ and controlled lighting conditions.

The Behr version of grey screen should perform much better for ambient lighting, since it is a bit darker hence it would improve the contrast for that environment.
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post #96 of 143 Old 12-20-2006, 08:25 AM
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I think that maybe I'll be looking into swappable screens. 1 for ambient lighting and one for movies. That way I can have the best of both worlds. The french cleat method as posted else where would make for a great platform for this.
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post #97 of 143 Old 12-20-2006, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bean-66 View Post

Test results: only RGB controlls were adjusted to achieve a D65. I purposely did not adjust green leves from the base. Since i wanted to see relative to green how much blue/red were affected.

Recalibrated for my "base screen" = UPW, LB 0-12-0, UM 0-4-0
my RGB values to achieve D65k. 6 , -2, -9

Behr "Custom" UPW, LB 0-22-0 YO 0-6-0 UM 0-6-0
RGB to achieve D65K 6, -2, -7

Behr (SW gray screen) LB 0-32-0 PY 0-4-0 UM 0-8-0
RGB to achieve D65K 7, -2, -8

My interpretation:
The Behr custom had no shift in red vs the base. It did have less of a blue push since the blue required increassing.

The Behr version of Grey screen had a less red since red needed increasing and t had less of a blue push than the base since blue was decreased.

My thoughts overall that the custom was a step in the right direction. The "Grey Screen" was too dark for my tastes and caused the whites to be dirty looking and not real clean. Its tough to tell however against only a 2' x 2' samples.

If I was going to pick one of these as a starting point.. I think the "Custom" mix above is pretty good at least for my PJ and controlled lighting conditions.

The Behr version of grey screen should perform much better for ambient lighting, since it is a bit darker hence it would improve the contrast for that environment.

Not meaning to take away from any of the effort, but I don't think we can really compare a mix that has not been analysed, at least not a comparison saying they are the same. It could very well be dead on, but since it is using very different components such as the base and pigments it could also be way off. I guess that is becoming very subjective now and the consensus is it doesn't matter if things are off.

All I can say is from my testing and first hand experience with actual SW Gray Screen, it did not muddy my whites like another gray I had up as a screen. It could be the projectors being used, but I would suspect that the Behr mix isn't a perfect match. If that is the case then there is some merit in color variences... again they can be compensated for but if there is a difference between the two brands this shows that those difference may indeed matter. If it was just a small color tweak being mentioned I would say it's not a big deal and adjust at the projector. Since whites are being reported as looking muddy the differences between the two brands and colorants may be more than we thought.

UPW is a very unique white. I have not found any other brand that even comes close to its color characteristics. Based on that, and since it is the base for a lot of the Behr colors it makes sense that there is a significant foundation difference. Maybe the pigments added will yield the exact same color and spectro break down, right now though I just don't know and can't answer that.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #98 of 143 Old 12-21-2006, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Mpiotro

No one wants to boot you from any threads. I would ask people try and stay on topic though. And I ask only for two reasons. First being you put forth a lot of good information in your post but the people that need to see it wont because it should be in threads on those topics. There are several running dealing with spray equipment and many dealing with metallic mixes.

The second reason is people coming here are compelled to reply to off topic posts once the subject get rolling.

I'm very happy for your successful screen and that you are happy with the image you are producing now. That's really the bottom line for coming here.

If you do come across with any of the new info you had been looking for by all means come back and fill us in


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post #99 of 143 Old 02-20-2007, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Edited opening thread providing a link to the Fn-easy thread and the benefits of yellow oxide to obtain a 6500k neutral gray.


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post #100 of 143 Old 02-20-2007, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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It's interesting how times have changed. The below is taken verbatim from the original Tom_Bombadil opening post dated 12-31-03

Titled How to Paint a color-neutral Grey Screen

For example consider the Glidden color "Universal Grey." This looks very neutral to the eye, however it contains both yellow and red pigments. The presence of these pigments will cause a color shift on every color on your screen. You might like it, you might not.

This was taken from his second thread opening post dated 7-01-04

Titled Another Gray Screen Paint for your consideration

What I found recently was that some photographers like to mix lamp black and raw umber to get grays suitable for dark room walls. That some lamp black pigments will have a bit of blue in them, which can come out when mixed into very light shades of gray (especially with house paint white base). And that raw umber is a particular shade of dark yellow-orange that can counter this slight blue tint (if present).

The second post to Tom's first thread was made by member CMRA 12-31-03
Tom,
Your efforts are duly noted. Grey screens as you may recall were introduced at least in a large part, to enhance the sorry CR most digital projectors suffer from. That's changing. The low CR high lumen projectors of yesterday are giving way to designs much more suited for home theater.
I feel a member of your talents is spending a great deal of time and effort on something that will be behind us in a year or two. Let's face it, no one would had ever given grey so much a thought if the blacks looked right on white screens. Ever been to a film cinema where they project on a grey screen?
What I'm saying in a nutshell: grey is a dying horse. I would enjoy seeing your talents focus elsewhere. Even I, one time defender of the grey, ME in particular, see the handwriting on the wall. Thanks for listening.


I'ts very interesting to look back at these two threads and see how while changing things have stayed the same. There have been major changes in projectors between now and 2003 but what ambient light does to projected light hasn't changed.
As Todd posted above 2007 should be a good year. And the understanding of what happens with the interaction of both projected and ambient light together falling against a neutral gray surface is still going strong.


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post #101 of 143 Old 02-27-2007, 04:27 AM - Thread Starter
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This example shows how our eyes see black as a contrast to white.

I lifted this photo from one of Tiddlers examples and cropped out the area I found interesting. Tiddler mentioned in his post that he was getting good black levels with this panel he was testing and I saw it as a good example of what I have been talking about as perceived blacks.

The photo has several areas I tested with my color sampling tool the one I use is called (Visual Color Picker 2.6) and it's a freeware download if some want to try it out or mspaint has something similar I think.

In the screen shot I tested the black below the test panel then the brown area where no light is on the panel (basic screen lit with ambient light) then the white in the snow and finally the black of the truck and tire.

Results of color sampling in RGB values.

Border black 3 3 3
Basic screen 67 40 33
White snow 242 251 255
Truck black 76 44 33
Tire black 99 82 62

As the numbers point out the black of the truck and the basic screen with no light shining on it other than ambient are almost the same color. This idea is key IMO to the whole concept of understanding a neutral gray screen. It's not important to know in enjoying one though. I get remarks all the time as to how unbelievable black and shiny images look on my screen. If your eyes see it and your brain receives the information who am I to say its not really black.



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post #102 of 143 Old 02-27-2007, 04:58 AM
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this last post (above) should be stickied as a primer in Perceived Black


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post #103 of 143 Old 02-27-2007, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I took two samples from the screen shot above and placed them side by side to remove the influence of the other brighter parts of the image. I then blew the image up 10 times so you can see the range of pixels colors.

Box at left is truck's black
Box at right is border colors



Anyone interested in this idea should notice next time they are watching a dark scene in a movie that fades to totally black as the scene changes. You will be perceiving a really dark black with only the slightest amount of brightness in the image. When the image transitions to black it will appear as if the black brightened somewhat into a gray. Of course the more ambient light available the more this will be seen. And also the lighter the screen is towards white the more you will see. This interaction with our eyes changing aperture size as the light level diminishes and our brain compensating is what makes these gray screens perform as they do. And why the gray has to be matched to the screen size, the projector and the level of ambient light in the room, as I stated way back in the opening post to this thread.

My understanding of this wasn't as acute then as it is now and my understanding of this is still not total. But as these two simple comparisons point out. (one thru measurements and one thru visual comparison) the effect is real and interesting is how we can take a photo of it even.


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post #104 of 143 Old 02-27-2007, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Just for comparison here is a thumbnail of the full image Tiddler posted. If you click on it, it will link you to a full size picture.

When viewed in its entirety the black in the truck even looks blacker than the section I posted first. If you quizzed viewers as to what bar below matched the color of the truck the best I think most would pick the black below the screen not the gray bar just off the image.



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post #105 of 143 Old 02-27-2007, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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As another example I tested one of my screen shots I took after I painted my ceiling flat black out from the screen a distance of about 5 feet.

I ran the image all the way up my 4:3 DIY gray screen for this shot to show the change in ceiling reflection but it also shows at the bottom the 18 inch black bar I then get. When sampling this photo I get RGB values below



Flat black wall outside the screen area 1, 1, 1
Black/ gray bar below the image 14, 22, 25
Darkest area in image (hair above ear) 17, 20, 25
Brightest area in image (white trim on shirt) 222, 255, 255

Contrast is really the ratio between what is the best white I can produce while at the same time the darkest black. Its then reasonable to believe the projector can space out its CR between these two extremes. In the case of this example I'm doing pretty good with a range about 200 RGB points difference.

Before someone posts in about this method of testing I do understand its not the most accurate way to do this and the cam could have made many corrections to the image I took the picture from. But I do feel this image is close to what I (think) I see and also a method others could use when trying to compare image A to image B when thinking about a screen paint.

The below image is a 5 times blowup of the upper left corner of the photo and the inset block was cut and pasted from the self masking black bar at the bottom of the photo.

This picture contains the 3 black levels in the picture all in one blowup without the effect of the brighter face part of the image.



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post #106 of 143 Old 03-02-2007, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

this last post (above) should be stickied as a primer in Perceived Black


Jim
Thanks for the thoughts.

I also think such an example makes the light pop on for some people. Some of these concepts seem to be hard for others to conceive. I have thought about starting a new thread just pertaining to perception. With maybe a little more explanation than I did here.

This thread has become a catch all for my thoughts mostly and as stuff like this becomes apparent to me I think maybe someone else would find it of interest also so I post it. Once and a while I update the opening post incase someone actually starts there.

But pretty much all the new work on black pigmented screen paint has moved now to other threads.

Thanks again for reading.


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post #107 of 143 Old 05-31-2007, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I borrowed a photo that Barnacules posted and cropped it and enlarged it twice. In doing so I took away the influences of the rest of the room and image to some extent and hope to show again something that I have posted about a couple times.

It deals with contrast real and perceived and what we see when watching a image under ambient light.

The photo he took did a good job of capturing what he is seeing I think and I didn't alter the pixel colors in any way when cropping them. The largest blowup shows the photos pixels not the SDE of his screen so the image is pixilated but the colors stay true. the photos I'm posting are large size thumbnails and if you want to see them larger click on them and be redirected to my photo site and there is a view full size button there.

I tested the actual color in the photos with a free download tool called (Visual Color Picker 2.6) and I would recommend anyone serious in this hobby give what I have been doing with this tool a try when looking at their screen shots.

Barnacules wanted more pop from his screen and his gray was defeating this on the white end. Actually diminishing everything across the board. (Lack of pop) in doing so it lowered his ability to perceive contrast even though in all likelihood his new screen has the same actual CR spread it's shifted into a range he can now perceive black where there is none. The real trick and the focus of what we are working on is stretching it in both directions at the same time and also centering it around this new point that allows for things to be perceived. IMO there are only two simple ways to do this stretching of the CR, thru gain or thru more lumens. We all approach this with different projectors but in our own experimenting we lock lumens as a fixed variable so that leaves gain and position on the sliding gray scale to work with.

There is one important other factor and that is our degree of obsession with black levels. it's a personal preference thing and in this case him coming from months of dark whites and colors the eye candy of brightness far outweighs the loss of black. And there is nothing wrong with liking bright better because in loosing some black the vividness of colors is a good trade. But what we really want is both.

Ok the photos

This is the OP photo of the screen and the whole room. I found the darkest black in the image to be in the woman's hair. It measured RGB 92 105 113. The black screen frame on the top of the screen measured RGB 3 5 4 (pure black is 0 0 0) so it shows a nice dark black. The unmasked black bar at the top measured RGB 72 77 80 (That's the max black that is possible under this ambient light level with this screen.)

So what this shows is masked area is 20 to 30 RGB points darker than the woman's black hair. And that's 20 to 30 out of a possible 255 points or about 10%. The amazing part to me is when viewing the full image her hair looks to the eye black while the unmasked area looks a med gray. But in the blow up our eyes like the color tool sees the true color.







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post #108 of 143 Old 07-02-2007, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Edited opening post.

Added paint mix formula's


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post #109 of 143 Old 07-03-2007, 07:23 AM
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Bud: I am sifting thru all of the posts in this thread and am re-reading your oft-edited initial post for what seems like the fourth or fifth time. Thanks for you efforts, and thanks for your observations about color perception...and your respectable attempts to link them to meaningful science. Kudos to you.

Here is where we stand. After lurking for years, I decided that the recent price cuts on an Epson HomeTheater 400 were sufficient...and we are now the proud owners of a front projector. We have all of ten hours on it...projected onto a tan wall...from nearly 16'. The image is about 106" diameter...the ceiling is white but the room does have, at night, total light control. The Epson is one of the brighter 'starter' projectors available today...

We have been very satisfied with what we see on our wall, especially in terms of blacks. I asked for samples of screen fabric...and a couple of very friendly ebayers have already sent matte white fabrics our way.

I attach these samples to the wall...and although the whites and lights are 'brighter' and have more 'pop', what I read about all those years about LCD projectors really becomes obvious in that the blacks are not black at all.

It is not an exaggeration to say that my entire family MUCH prefers our projected image onto a bare tan wall...I might add it is hard for any of us to see any 'grain' or whatever it might be called...from the tan painted surface. So maybe we got lucky.

But I could certainly imagine taking a stab at trying your grey out...and I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly to do. I'm wondering if you could add yet another edit to your initial post that is a little more specific as to the steps required.

Finally, does it make sense to have a black velvet-covered frame around the perimeter of the painted viewing area?

Again, thanks for your effort. I particularly enjoyed your comment about how many threads don't really ever reach a conclusion...so true...so true!
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post #110 of 143 Old 07-03-2007, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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JA222

Thanks for reading and I may just do as you suggested and edit the OP again with a few more details. One of the reasons I haven't was until recently others expanded on what I started here and did a much better how to and I kind of maintained this page as a log of my ever increasing learning curve on these gray screens. So it may be time to stop editing my thoughts and start a new thread that's a bit more to the point than the way the thread progresses now. But on the other hand I have found many can relate to the thought process and find reading thru my steps helps them skip a few of the been there done that's.

Basically you have a nice bright projector there and experiencing the same type of good effects from your wall my gray pallet provides. And your dark walls while not neutral by a long shot are tempering the extra lumens and fighting some of that ambient light, all the while raising what is black and what you perceive to be black to an acceptable level.

The fact your wall is a tan color it's working in a way that has pleasing results. It is altering your colors but is less noticeable being a tan than if it was a green or blue. The reason being is most of us can tolerate a green tree that's a slightly different shade of green but we notice a persons face that has a green tint to it.

The idea behind neutral gray is as I have posted throughout this thread, it's basically a white just a darker shade of white. If you think of the paint and pigment as a zillion tiny balls most white and a few black sitting on a flat surface. The white will reflect true colors and the black will absorb all colors. Thus true light coming back just less of it. We have found that these pure mixes of white with black pigment due to slight impurities have a very slight push to blue and that is where the yellow pigment comes in. just enough to tweak out the blue.

The poly added to the paint or in some cases painted over the paint is a method of adjusting the sheen of a very flat diffused surface. It's been found that if needed it can boost the gain slightly helping whites and bright colors and not hurting the blacks.

The bigger the gap between black and white the greater the percentage of the projectors contrast ratio that is being preserved.

In your case I would say you are perfect for one of the neutral gray paints. I wish I could make a recommendation to you as to what one would work best in your setting but I don't have the information or the data base of others with the same needs as yours to do that. The original intent of this thread was to first provide some information and second be a depository for this kind of information. That part of it never really took off but there are a few comments scattered thru the thread.

As for the black boarder most here will advise you it's a good thing and there are many threads you can search out that will give you how to's on that.

Keep posting and don't hesitate to jump in here and ask more questions. There are many out there that will help.


Bud

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post #111 of 143 Old 07-03-2007, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I have been thinking a lot about this matching that has to take place when trying to maximize your projector to a screen. Even the commercial screen manufactures don't have a good way to identify the proper screen for a customer. They send out screen samples for people to hold up and view to see what looks best. They don't even as far as I know make suggestions as to what to look for or how to calibrate for each sample when deciding what to buy. And most people do as the above poster did and tape them up on the wall and pick one. I'm sure the commercial guys have lots of scraps of screen laying around from when they make smaller sized screens or special orders so for them it's just postage cost to send them out.

So what should the DIY approach be to this issue? The easy thing would be to buy a half dozen quarts of paint and make your own samples. There was some talk about methods where you buy a couple paints and by mixing them together at the right amounts you can make many samples out of two. Then there is the option of going to the paint store and getting some paint cards of some grays and freezing something on the screen and then comparing a small sample to some white and black on the screen, and then back figuring from that by finding out what pigments are in the paint. Then narrow down your search based around that number. (that's the approach I tried at first)
If in the case of the above poster he has a wall that seems close even though its tan in color that's a good clue as to how dark a gray to think about.

Another thing to consider is where you are on your bulb life and what settings your projector is set to. Both brightness and eco or bright modes should be considered.

With a fresh bulb you should select your starting point if possible to allow for adjustment as the bulb dims with age.

I have viewed the projected image on 100's of different surfaces. If I run across a gray box chances are it gets looked at.

At this point for me its still trial and error and if the average guy even bought 3 or 4 quarts of paint to use in the determination process and maybe a quart of poly and painted a bunch of good size pieces of cardboard and just used these materials to make sure of what the results will be. He would still IMO be money ahead and have a better screen than if he picked from the store bought shades of commercial screens. The really big difference is once you get the store bought screen you will be tempted to say good enough because you have no way to go at that point except buy another. With a painted screen if it's not where you want it tweak it again and give it another coat.

I'm still 100% happy with my screen and it underwent 2 tweaks in getting to what I ended up with. If I upgrade projectors out comes the paint samples and paint cans again.


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post #112 of 143 Old 07-03-2007, 02:45 PM
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Bud:

I will look for your new posts. Thanks again for your efforts...the posts are a good read, to boot. I'm looking around now for a way to get a high contrast screen/screen material/paint whatever...with no real deadline involved. I have several samples on the way and will try to report back with anything significant. To reiterate, though--the image that the Epson 400 projects, in our set-up, looks far superior OVERALL with the tan wall serving as the screen (vs two different matte white screen samples). I wouldn't have believed it myself...but it is true. We have more screen materials on the way.
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I originally used just a bare wall (grayish tan satin paint) with my 4805 and the darks were perfectly satisfactory, but it did give a bit of a sepia tone to certain scenes. I used the Behr Silverscreen formula, which gave a very light, silvery gray and noticed a great improvement in colors, but a significant drop in contrast - all of the black images came out charcoal. I took my 2/3 full quart of paint back to Home Depot and had them double the amount of black pigment, which gave it slightly more than double the original amount of black pigment as the Silverscreen formula requires. This dried on my screen a light gray color that was almost but not as dark as the wall. It turned out perfect - great, clear and vibrant colors, with very dark blacks. So, JoeAndrew, I'd definitely consider a gray painted screen before dropping $200 or more on a decent commercially made screen.

I'm getting a new projector next month when I move into my new house, most likely a Benq W500, and will need a much bigger screen than I've been using. I'm not sure where to start with the gray shade, as the W500 is a fairly bright projector but not quite in the Epson 400's class.

By the way, thanks Bud for this very informative thread.
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Well...after reading posts, more posts...and even more posts, I decided I'm going to do a test run on this DIY screen. I found some canvas sitting around that Im going to stretch over maybe a 3'x5' frame and I already have some Kilz2 for priming. I plan on taping off the middle and 1 half doing a 50/50 poly/paint final coat and the other half maybe a 25/75 poly/paint final ....unless someone has a better formula

couple questions tho, in your first edited post you said you 'would be' using the easy06, is that what you ended up with in all your screen shots? Since we have basically the same setup and Im going to stick to the 72x96 screen, I'll want to use the same grey.

I see some screen shots of with and without the poly topcoat, do you have any shots comparing the 2 against the BOC?

and lastly, jsut so I got this right....
2 coats primer
2-3 coats easy-06 paint
1 top coat poly mix

how thin does the poly/paint mix become? thin enough to spray with a car primer gun I have laying around?


thanks again for all the info guys...but im starting to get a headache
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backwoodz View Post

Well...after reading posts, more posts...and even more posts, I decided I'm going to do a test run on this DIY screen. I found some canvas sitting around that Im going to stretch over maybe a 3'x5' frame and I already have some Kilz2 for priming. I plan on taping off the middle and 1 half doing a 50/50 poly/paint final coat and the other half maybe a 25/75 poly/paint final ....unless someone has a better formula

couple questions tho, in your first edited post you said you 'would be' using the easy06, is that what you ended up with in all your screen shots? Since we have basically the same setup and Im going to stick to the 72x96 screen, I'll want to use the same grey.

I see some screen shots of with and without the poly topcoat, do you have any shots comparing the 2 against the BOC?

and lastly, jsut so I got this right....
2 coats primer
2-3 coats easy-06 paint
1 top coat poly mix

how thin does the poly/paint mix become? thin enough to spray with a car primer gun I have laying around?


thanks again for all the info guys...but im starting to get a headache

Yes I think the Easy 05 or the Easy 06 would be what I would use for the Sharp 10X and a 72x96 screen size if I were to do it again. When my screen was made the benefits of the yellow oxide were still not known in making the mixture more neutral than what I believed to be neutral at that time. I wasn’t the first person to play around with neutral gray there are older threads linked in the OP. there wasn’t anyone at that time with the equipment to closely measure the paints closeness to neutral gray so without knowing I assumed white mixed with black would be the best I could do to make neutral. Later thru experiments and testing member Tiddler suggested the yellow oxide as a correcting pigment.

So in a nutshell my mix wasn’t a Easy 05 / 06 it was a gallon of American Traditions (Flat) white base with I believe 22/48 oz lamp black added. I painted 2 coats of that on the canvas and viewed it for over a month and was quite happy but felt it lacked a little. And I saw it had such a wide viewing cone 180 degrees that I could rob a little of that and maybe give the image a bit more help from where my seating was at. I had a strong feeling that the addition of some poly to the paint would raise the sheen of the surface and a few of the tests I did with higher sheen paints were promising. I started a thread and asked if anyone was adding poly to gray paint without all the other metallic pigments and PBmaxx wrote back and said yes if all you need is a little sheen correction poly in some rate like 1:1 or 2:1 paint : poly should be tried. That’s when I did the test panels I will attach at the bottom of this post. They are shown in front of the poly added screen because I didn’t take any during testing but caught up on the picture taking after the screen was done. Also in these photos there is a piece of BOC draped over the screen to show a reference between these paints and what many were using then just plain BOC. Sorry the BOC wasn’t stretched on a frame and has some wrinkles but the comparison still shows I think.

The mixture I went with I believe was 2:1 paint : poly. And the poly I used was Olympic and the luster was matte. I then put two coats of that on. One coat would have been enough but I saw a few areas I missed full coverage once I turned the projector on. I also brush painted all these screens. Yes I know ….But it was the middle ages of DIY by today’s standards. What I found was on canvas with flat paint there was no wrong way to paint, any amount of brushing in any direction and re brushing and overlapping gave a good screen surface. That was not the case when the poly was added. Once the poly started to tack up and if you brushed into it you got a change in the way it laid down and that would show as a blemish in the PQ at the end. The term we used was keeping a wet edge and that later went over into the rolling instructions. I painted very narrow strips starting at the top of the screen (hanging) and worked down left to right top to bottom just like typing. Maybe 4” strips. The idea being I would be back starting the next row way before the one above tacked up. and any drips would be taken care of on the way back. This plan on canvas worked very well and looking at my screen you cant find any type of inconsistence in the finish or the PQ.

When I was selecting the poly to use the lady showed me 4 brands and I couldn’t see a difference and then she said we do have a product in the faux finish area and brought over a can of the Behr (Flat) poly and I was to stupid to see what in front of my nose at the time. And I selected the Olympic because it was a buck less. If I had selected the Behr being a Flat instead of a Matte I might have found what member Tiddler did that it would work without blending with the paint. I have never tested it but all testing I have seen shows its another way to skin a cat. Is it a better method or equal that has never been tested or shown. But I do endorse that method as well. One thing blending will do is allow you more different ranges of sheens. But many have just top coated with the Behr poly.

Below are some images taken with several different poly blends and the BOC sample and the finished screen. I forget what ones are what mixes off hand but it’s easy to see the results. The lower left was pure poly over paint. The first two images are room lights on with and without cam flash.















The BOC in the above pictures seemed to work well thru the middle of the spectrum where I found it falling off was on the ends (black and white) the yellow cast you see in it in the bright shots could well be the influence of the yellow wall that was there at the time. (now Black) also the ceiling (now Black).

I remember showing these shots when people would ask about BOC and really the 90% in the middle wasn’t helped as much by going away from BOC.

Hope this post helped answer some of your questions. If not ask away…


Bud

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post #116 of 143 Old 09-14-2007, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Below are some images taken with several different poly blends and the BOC sample and the finished screen. I forget what ones are what mixes off hand but it’s easy to see the results. The lower left was pure poly over paint. The first two images are room lights on with and without cam flash.



in the lower left and upper right...Is that glare from the poly caused from the PJ shooting from the ceiling down where as I will be shooting from 24 inches off the ground up....with the same finish would I not have the same glare?..actually, after looking at it some more the upper right just looks like a naturally brighter screen finish

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

The BOC in the above pictures seemed to work well thru the middle of the spectrum where I found it falling off was on the ends (black and white) the yellow cast you see in it in the bright shots could well be the influence of the yellow wall that was there at the time. (now Black) also the ceiling (now Black).

I remember showing these shots when people would ask about BOC and really the 90% in the middle wasn’t helped as much by going away from BOC.

Hope this post helped answer some of your questions. If not ask away…

That was my next question, being a total newb I didnt know what to look for as far as differences in the BOC compared to the others. Now I see waht you see.

I think I will try the E-05 and see how that goes.



thanks for the additional pics!
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post #117 of 143 Old 09-14-2007, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backwoodz View Post

in the lower left and upper right...Is that glare from the poly caused from the PJ shooting from the ceiling down where as I will be shooting from 24 inches off the ground up....with the same finish would I not have the same glare?..actually, after looking at it some more the upper right just looks like a naturally brighter screen finish

What you see as being brighter is the richer poly mix is adding what they call “specularity” to the surface I don’t know if that’s even a word but around here it means “mirror like” so yes projector location and screen location and eyes location will play a factor in how bright what mix will look. What you see in the lower left is the start of a hot spot I believe. This photos and what I saw when testing this with the projector mounted is how I selected what I wanted as a mix.


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post #118 of 143 Old 10-09-2007, 12:43 PM
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Hey Bud, does this quote I pulled from the archives go with this test panel pic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud16415 View Post

The pictures were taken with my test screen sitting in front of my finished screen. Along with the test screen I hung a piece of BOC over the upper right hand corner of my finished screen. The test screen divided into fourths showing the effect of the poly as follows.

Upper left 1:1 poly : paint two topcoats applied
Upper right 2:1 poly : paint
Lower left pure poly as a top coat
Lower right 1:1 poly : paint one topcoat applied

The pictures try to show the hot spotting in the higher gains but the cam didn't quite catch it as good as I would have liked.
One interesting to note the two pictures taken of the screens without the projector on, one with flash and one with no flash. The lower left cell that looks to be the darkest gray with the pure poly topcoat comes to life under the flash in the second picture. Now compare that to the BOC. This shows the combined effect of the gray and the max gain to produce a bright white under high lumens. Viewing with my projectors lumens that exact same effect takes place. You can also see from those two pictures and a couple more how the BOC under high lumens starts to fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post


Below are some images taken with several different poly blends and the BOC sample and the finished screen. I forget what ones are what mixes off hand but it's easy to see the results. The lower left was pure poly over paint. The first two images are room lights on with and without cam flash.



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post #119 of 143 Old 10-09-2007, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by backwoodz View Post

Hey Bud, does this quote I pulled from the archives go with this test panel pic?

Yes that quote went with the first posting of the pictures. Thanks for finding it and updating it into this thread.

how's the screen coming?


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post #120 of 143 Old 10-10-2007, 07:08 AM
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Yes that quote went with the first posting of the pictures. Thanks for finding it and updating it into this thread.

how's the screen coming?

With my 3 year old son and my 16year old daughter, the screen is on the back burner for now But the family says I need to have the new screen done before thanksgiving or Im dead meat
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