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post #121 of 143 Old 02-29-2008, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

What lumens cant do is make blacks blacker than what the screen looks like in whatever lighting is on in the room. Because when projecting black we are projecting nothing.

Hey Bud, not trying to highjack, just discuss this point further as I've seen you type this exact thing before and it made perfect sense to me.....until my brother proved me wrong.

During a Monday Night Football game, I moved my PJ a tad to the left to show an "imageless" section of my screen (about 12"), and said "this is as black as I can get". What was proved wrong right in front of our eyes was comparing that area to the Stats Banner scrolling along the bottom of ESPN, (it was butting right to the edge so the areas were next to each other) they have black as the background, and this background black was clearly blacker than the "imageless" side of the screen.

Can you help us understand how this was ?
Are graphics a different animal ?

I sat back down with my tail between my legs as my younger brother proved the PJ/AV "expert" wrong.

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post #122 of 143 Old 02-29-2008, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma George View Post

Hey Bud, not trying to highjack, just discuss this point further as I've seen you type this exact thing before and it made perfect sense to me.....until my brother proved me wrong.

During a Monday Night Football game, I moved my PJ a tad to the left to show an "imageless" section of my screen (about 12"), and said "this is as black as I can get". What was proved wrong right in front of our eyes was comparing that area to the Stats Banner scrolling along the bottom of ESPN, (it was butting right to the edge so the areas were next to each other) they have black as the background, and this background black was clearly blacker than the "imageless" side of the screen.

Can you help us understand how this was ?
Are graphics a different animal ?

I sat back down with my tail between my legs as my younger brother proved the PJ/AV "expert" wrong.

No George you can hold your head high still you were right. I have had the same debate myself many times with people. But you are going to have to be prepared when you go back to explain this one. What you are seeing in that darker black is what is called (perceived black or better put perceived contrast) and it deals with how the rods and cones in your eye works and also how your brain receives the information and processes it.

So you will have to do a little homework and report back ok?

First thing you have to read is this link.
http://www.practical-home-theater-gu...ast-ratio.html
Then go to one of my threads and start reading at post number 101
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=662348&page=4

The second link I took the time to take photos of just what you guys were looking at and then blew up small parts of the photo that looked black thru perception and didn't change anything but put them next to samples of the side of the screen like you are talking about. I also downloaded a color picker tool and you take the eyedropper and the computer tells you the RGB number of the color its touching and by that method you can also see the numbers are the same.

Feel free to post to that thread if you want to ask more questions about this stuff or have any ideas concerning this. (will be more on topic there)

Thanks for asking about this it's a topic I like to explore.


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post #123 of 143 Old 02-29-2008, 10:03 AM
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I still don't get it.
Your examples show the blackest the image can be, is the bars. (which is what I thought).
My example proved this wrong.....my PJ/screen was able to go blacker.

I'll try to take a picture of this, but what was on screen (the ESPN banners) IS blacker than the "screen area with no image".

Perceived or not, my human eyes saw it to be blacker.

Maybe it has something to do with CGI graphics, your examples are of films only.

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post #124 of 143 Old 02-29-2008, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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PG

The human eyes are really very amazing devices when you think about it. But when used as light meters they are awful, horrible, deplorable, and down right no good.

For instance if you were sitting in your living room on a sunny day with all the shades opened reading the paper not needing any lights on and the room was nice and bright. And then you went out in the yard same day no clouds noon day sun and sat down to read that same paper and I were to ask you this question. how much brighter is it outside reading the paper than inside? You might say well maybe twice as bright or 3 times as bright. And then if I pulled out a light meter and we measured we would find out it was more like 20 or 30 times brighter. What happens is your eyes and vision adjusted to make your brain see the image in a range we can cope with. When you go to the eye doc and get them drops and go outside WOW is it bright. Go to a movie at high noon for two hours and walk out the exit door into the sun and for a few seconds you get a feel for the true light level. you can see at night with one candle but during the day one candles adds almost nothing to what we need to see. One example I always liked was the pirates wore the patch over one eye for a reason. It was to give them superior night vision when they would board a ship to pillage. They would wear a patch all day and that eye adjusted to a super sensitive low level of light, remove it and you can see in the dark.

Take the photos of anything you think is blacker than black and then do a google search on (visual color picker 2.6) it's a free down load and it will let you compare colors on your computer screen. The fun part is these blacks you see in the image will come thru in the photo just the same. White is RGB 255 255 255 and black is 0 0 0 things that look black have low numbers you most likely wont find 0 0 0 in your photo but you might see something like 12 17 23 compare that number of your no light screen to the black of something projected and you will see the projected black is really lighter than what you think is lighter. The more white or brightness around the perceived black area the blacker it will look.

There is no difference if it's in a movie or sports program or a test pattern. Its called commonly ANSI contrast.

If you read the first link I supplied it tells in there that humans can only see about 400:1 CR at best. As a ANSI CR that's where there is white and black in our vision at the same time. So why all the hype about 10,000:1 projectors? One candle sitting in your home theater will take a 10,000:1 CR projector down to 1000:1 I think they say.

But the big number is great for bragging when the guys come over.


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post #125 of 143 Old 02-29-2008, 11:11 AM
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I still don't get it.
I'm sorry we did this here.
The only way to show you what I was seeing with my 20/10 corrected vision is to duplicate it and take pictures.
I wasn't crazy, (probably drunk) but it was true, and my little brother won that one.

I 100% understand your point of relativity, of what's blacker compared to what is all relative, but if a light meter shows that banner being "lighter", than the meter shouldn't be used to measure light.

We didn't have meters, we used our eyes, cause seeing is believing, not some reading on a meter.

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post #126 of 143 Old 02-29-2008, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma George View Post

I still don't get it.
I'm sorry we did this here.
The only way to show you what I was seeing with my 20/10 corrected vision is to duplicate it and take pictures.
I wasn't crazy, (probably drunk) but it was true, and my little brother won that one.

I 100% understand your point of relativity, of what's blacker compared to what is all relative, but if a light meter shows that banner being "lighter", than the meter shouldn't be used to measure light.

We didn't have meters, we used our eyes, cause seeing is believing, not some reading on a meter.

Plasma George

You bring up a very good point in an indirect way, and that is..

Sometimes not knowing isn't that bad of a thing.

Projection is illusion. Plain and simple if the illusion is working for you don't try and understand it just enjoy it, is what I say.


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post #127 of 143 Old 02-29-2008, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Plasma George

You bring up a very good point in an indirect way, and that is..

Sometimes not knowing isn't that bad of a thing.

Projection is illusion. Plain and simple if the illusion is working for you don't try and understand it just enjoy it, is what I say.

But shouldn't everyone see it this way since we're all humans with the same vision ? That's my whole point, forget the specs and meters, who looks at life through what a meter says....we look at life to what our eyes see.

Good idea to move it, and I will post pictures this weekend so everyone can see I'm not crazy !

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post #128 of 143 Old 04-18-2008, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't updated this thread in a while and thought I would add a link to a thread that holds an abundance of really good photo comparisons showing the addition of poly to an otherwise lamp black based neutral gray. And then doing side by side testing against a popular metallic neutral gray screen of very close shade of gray and thus a close projector calibration.

The comparison is done on page 5 post 143 of the linked thread below and runs thru page 6.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1014773&page=5

The information below is quoted from that thread as to the paint mix used.
Note the corrective pigments for the LB are brown oxide and medium yellow in this case.

Reference Gray being Behr Flat Enamel 1850 tinted:
Quart Custom Tint
0 12 0 Lamp Black
0 02 1 Brown Oxide
0 01 0 medium yellow
I decided to try adding the equivalent of 8oz. of Minnwax Satin Polycrylic to a quart of the tinted Behr 1850. To be honest I really expected this would cause hot spotting but I don't see any indication that it will. At least no more than the BW-AAA-Valspar-Flat-Enamel is demonstrating. Of course the only way to know for sure is to paint an entire 100"+ screen and shine light on it from a ceiling mounted projector.




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post #129 of 143 Old 07-16-2008, 03:28 PM
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I have had several people suggest I start a new thread on this revolutionary method of dialing in the sheen of a gray screen paint but since this has already been done I thought I would simply bump the thread.
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post #130 of 143 Old 06-18-2009, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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This was posted into another thread but is also a good example for this thread and a bump for any newcomers.
-------------------------------------

Jbelljbell

First off let me say welcome to the forum, and your screen undertaking both size and environment are commendable. With results very impressive.

Keeping with the new request for subjective comments only I will try and comply.

I took the liberty of capturing your photos off line and tried to rearrange them in a manner that shows what is happening on your screen in terms of real CR and perceived CR, the effect of the ambient light, the screen and the brightness of the projector. I have shown such things before with more of a numerical method but your excellent photos allowed me to show this in more of a graphic manner that doesn't need one to analyze numbers.

What I did to your photos was ONLY crop and cut and paste. I didn't alter one pixel as to brightness or color information.

Your first photo of the full space shows a full range of CR within the photo the spotlights are pure white and the blacks behind the curtains is almost pure black. So depending on the monitor everyone is using to view this image it shows the best CR their equipment can show.
If we look at the projected image of the city and measure the difference between black and white (much the same as what your eyes saw in person I'm sure) that CR would be in the real range of less than 10:1 would be my guess maybe lower. But our eyes and brain allow for perception and show us a much improved image than if the wall was white.



If I were ask everyone in the above image to find the black building on the right hand side of the screen about 2/3 of the way down they could all find it. See blow up below.



And now asked you by eye looking at the black building and the different wall colors to the right of the projected image, what one is close to the black color of the building?
First is the band the projector is masking black plus the ambient. The second is the ambient lit wall. And the third I think is the wall being shadowed by the curtain.

OK has everyone picked a match for the black building. I cut and pasted the building to each different band to remove the influence of the contrasting image around it to make comparison easier to see.



And then a bigger blowup.



I'm not trying to draw any conclusions about anything here except your photos were great at pointing out perceived contrast and gray nature of the paint you used aided in that. How it would have compared to the same shade of gray without the metallic we don't know. And we don't know if the projector would have had enough lumens to support the gray without the metallic. Your off angle shot shows a nice image from the side seats equally as bright. So something ether the wall texture or the paint or both are causing wide angle dispersion of the image. Could you have even went darker with the screen and saw more perception improvement we don't know that ether.

But for a 100 buck and a block wall, I have to say I'm very impressed.

I hope you stay active in the forum, as I read your other post saying this was a one time paint project.


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post #131 of 143 Old 06-18-2009, 06:51 AM
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Hey Bud great demo!

I have seen this sort of optical illusion demonstrated before but not in such a real-world front projection context.

Amazing how black that building looks in the photo, and how not black it looks in close proximity to dark grays and the nearly black area.

Here is a link to a similar optical illusion.



If you don't beleive that block A and B are the same shade then download ColorPic and check it out for yourself. I get RGB readings of 120 120 120 for both blocks.


Here is another common demonstration of this effect:


LL
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post #132 of 143 Old 09-13-2010, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Am I the only gray screen lover left on the forum?

With the newer projectors doing so much better in power and contrast, that only leaves ambient light as a negative for those wishing front projection in less than perfect light controlled rooms.

The information in the thread should still be helpful for those people trying to get a grasp on protecting their contrast ratio.


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post #133 of 143 Old 02-08-2011, 06:49 AM
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Has anyone put any thought into using the following paint (from the following Projector Central article which won't let me post the link) Sherwin-Williams ProClassic Smooth Enamel Satin Extra White, # B20 W 51.

The article from Projector Central is pretty interesting and compares it to Studiotek 100 screen and says it's about right on with the screen.
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post #134 of 143 Old 03-29-2011, 05:47 PM
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So much reading to do, currently i'm on this thread and the "Neutral Grays and Simple off the shelf solutions" thread at Hometheatershack.

I painted my $20 HD board with Behr "Anonymous" and the picture was too dim, so i threw some UPW temporarily. I was looking at a WIlsonart laminate, but now i think i'll just turn around the board i have now and prime it, then use a lighter shade of grey then think about a coat of Poly.

75'' with a new Acer H5360. I had a feeling from the start that the gray i bought was a tad too much, dangit, but i want to pursue purer blacks, damn plasmas have ruined it for us

I have no problems trying to mix something up, it's just when they recommend renting a spray gun that i say it's going too far, no thanks.

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post #135 of 143 Old 03-29-2011, 07:03 PM
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Kingcarcas;

the 5360 is no slouch at throwing lumens... so i'm surprised at only 75" that a better suggestion wasn't made than an off the shelf dark grey.
and while you may love the blacks presented by plasmas... it just maybe... you also gravitate towards brighter screens, not necessarily screens with greater contrast.

i would caution, when you close doors to options such as spraying... you also close doors to the better performance... especially when it comes to black level detail that you are seeking.

so you want to roll... hmmmm....

alright...if you don't close the door to spending $25 dollars more... then the following will provide a possible rolling solution.

make yourself a modified RS-MaxxMudd LL solution...
where the only difference will be... you'll replace 4 ounces of pearl with 4 ounces of Liquitex Basics Silver.
in other words, you'll use 16oz of Delta Pearl, and 12oz of Liquitex Basics Silver.
everything else will remain the same.

let me know if your game to making the 5360 sing.
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post #136 of 143 Old 03-30-2011, 09:47 PM
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Well let me see if i find a cheap gun, we do already have a compressor..........

I don't want to make this forum look bad, i wasn't recommended that OTS gray, i just did it myself
When looking at the Munsell chart it looks like it was a N4 or 5

Dark blue walls, white ceiling(not gonna happen!), brown carpet (will be dark wood later), pretty cool because i just built a wooden coffee table and i can use the Polycrylic as a protective coat with that too.

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post #137 of 143 Old 03-31-2011, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post
Well let me see if i find a cheap gun, we do already have a compressor..........
Well now I don't want to "go too far" or anything, but spraying with a cheap HVLP gun might not be conducive to getting good results. That, and "Compressor spraying" requires that the Line have a Rust/Water Filter on it, and that the compressor be able to deliver constant pressure for at least 2 minutes of "open Gun" time.

It's all a bit much....I agree. But I'm not advocating using a Air Fed HVLP. Get this beauty for $50.00...and have a great tool you can use later as well. http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html

It doesn't matter what you decide on as far as a DIY Paint solution....spraying whatever it is will provide best possible results.

......especially that Poly Coat on that table!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #138 of 143 Old 04-11-2011, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

Kingcarcas;

the 5360 is no slouch at throwing lumens... so i'm surprised at only 75" that a better suggestion wasn't made than an off the shelf dark grey.
and while you may love the blacks presented by plasmas... it just maybe... you also gravitate towards brighter screens, not necessarily screens with greater contrast.

i would caution, when you close doors to options such as spraying... you also close doors to the better performance... especially when it comes to black level detail that you are seeking.

so you want to roll... hmmmm....

alright...if you don't close the door to spending $25 dollars more... then the following will provide a possible rolling solution.

make yourself a modified RS-MaxxMudd LL solution...
where the only difference will be... you'll replace 4 ounces of pearl with 4 ounces of Liquitex Basics Silver.
in other words, you'll use 16oz of Delta Pearl, and 12oz of Liquitex Basics Silver.
everything else will remain the same.

let me know if your game to making the 5360 sing.

The last four posts are a good illustration of how to lead a thread off topic. As I am the originator of the thread I'll take the time to relate my thoughts and point out why others and myself seldom any longer post concerning neutral gray screen surfaces that have been properly sheen adjusted. (I might add while staying on topic.)
In post 134 Kingcarcas comes to the thread with an on topic appraisal of something he has tried. He came to trying this on his own or with some misguided information, but nonetheless he had a data point with a neutral gray paint called Behr "Anonymous" that was much too dark for a bright projector on a smallish screen. This paint would measure RGB at about 147,147,147 so it is neutral but much to dark, he later posted correctly it would be around a N4 or N5 range when he should have been directed to something like a N7 or N8 depending on a lot of unknown factors he wasn't asked like what his rooms ambient level was and what his projector settings were and where he was with lamp age etc. No discussion was had about if he enriched the paint with poly and he mentioned doing a top coat of poly and that wasn't commented on. He stated he didn't have a desire to spray and was given advice.

He was advised to forget the neutral gray idea and opt for a much lighter gray screen with metallic enhancements and closing the door to spraying he would be closing the door to (The Best). He was then given information on where to buy spraying equipment and that equipment would work good on spraying coffee tables.

What happened to sticking to the intent of a thread around here? No proof has ever been shown here that given ample lumens and a screen size that allowed for enough foot lamberts to compensate for a given ambient level, that a neutral gray won't produce the same or better perceived contrast as a metallic paint.
The argument has went on for many years and just because most of the proponents of neutral gray have left the building doesn't change the findings. The poster using the Behr "Anonymous" went too dark clearly in his search of black because he hadn't locked into the concept of perception yet. This is the crucial issue here, is it advising or is it teaching? With perception black is only as black as the contrast ratio to what is white. He went so dark with a screen searching for blacks but disregarded the impact of the whites into the CR. We often see poor CR where the whites are very bright and so are the blacks, that's running off the gray scale in one direction. This poster ran off the scale in the reverse direction.
There are thousands of threads dealing with spray painting and metallic paints, this one was stated in the opening post as one to investigate the possibilities neutral gray only reflection of light.


Bud

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post #139 of 143 Old 04-12-2011, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I was contacted thru PM and advised to lighten up and get off the soapbox regarding my last post and would like to apologize if anyone's sensibilities were harmed thru my actions. So at this time I would like to do just that. There was nothing I said directed personally against pb or mm and if such was taken it wasn't my intent. I would like to also apologize to Kingcarcas for not replying sooner to his needs. My overall involvement in the forum is less these days and I was also in AZ at that time and didn't have the access I normally have.

I do however still hold a strong belief based in experimentation (my own and others), observations and also study, that metallic enriched paints are not always the answer to everyone's needs every time. Those that know me know I search for a individual solution based on a fine tuning of each individuals room and ambient light, projector and bulb life/ settings, and screen size. I am in fact a big proponent of doing the planning process for all three areas before ever spending a dime. It's a knowledge based approach to home theater rather than selecting a projector, having a room and then thinking about what screen do I need.

The PM I received did say they took exception with one statement I said, that being, "No proof has ever been shown here that given ample lumens and a screen size that allowed for enough foot lamberts to compensate for a given ambient level, that a neutral gray won't produce the same or better perceived contrast as a metallic paint."
I would like to open the scope of this thread to anyone that wants to offer scientific evidence to the contrary of that statement. I won't repost 1000's of posts that lead me to making that statement using fair unbiased and scientific methods. But from here on anyone that wishes to compare or prove that one passive device can outperform another passive device when the gain improvement of metallic is compensated for by increased lumen output on the other feel free to post your thoughts or findings here. There is a long thought belief by some that a screen can be made to deepen blacks and at the same time brighten whites thus improving CR.
Any and all that would like to weigh in on the subject are more than welcome to do so here. It's much better to do it in one place than every thread that's started over and over again.


Bud

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post #140 of 143 Old 04-19-2011, 04:40 AM
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Ok guys i have everything except the gun, they only had one bottle of Liquitex silver, will get another off Amazon.

About Thrifty White Hardboard, i was planning on using the same Melamine board that i have now just flipping it over, but then i heard TWH is lighter so i said ok for $10 why not (I'm making a frame and cleat system like in the thread "Amazing Grace theater build")
But i went to HD and the board felt heavy! Probably heavier than what i'm already using, what say you?

P.S. Managed to paint the ceiling grey!

^Hey guys i wasn't trying to start anything, that was just me browsing the greys at HD and picking one like a noob, way before i even knew there was a DIY section on this forum.
FWIW the PJ is still only a few weeks old, room is ~14x7 with the stairway on one side painted in a beige type color.
Screen is against one of the smaller walls with the bathroom door next to it (white) and another white door opposite for a bedroom. Dark blue walls, dark curtains, black speakers, dvd shelf, couch and center console.
Moving to 74'' because i didn't like the screen up so high, squeezing it in between the two mains and i want to be able to see most of the black border.

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post #141 of 143 Old 04-19-2011, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post
Ok guys i have everything except the gun, they only had one bottle of Liquitex silver, will get another off Amazon.
it (liquitex basics silver) should come in 'tubes' in the artist section of hobby lobby or michaels.
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post #142 of 143 Old 04-19-2011, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

it (liquitex basics silver) should come in 'tubes' in the artist section of hobby lobby or michaels.

Actually, they do have the liqutex basics Silver in "Jars" as well, but it's not common.

As far as the 4' x 8' Thrifty White board being heavier than almost any other similarly sized Board, that's seems very unlikely. It's only 1/8" thick and probably weighs in at 15 lbs at very most.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #143 of 143 Old 09-10-2011, 06:51 PM
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I've been trying a gray high-contrast mix.

Rather than saturate this thread, I've started a new one over here....
A high-contrast gray screen paint.... Is it really possible?

Any help would be much appreciated!
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