Screen Sample Color Match - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't read every post in every thread on here, but I'm getting pretty close now!

I just may not have come across this yet, it seems someone has to have tried this... I have read where people have gotten screen samples from various manufacturers, including some grey screen material. Has anyone tried to take this in and have them throw it on the computer for a color match? I'd be curious to see what the mix comes out to be.

I know it wouldn't be a perfect match, one of the samples I saw on here (can't remember which manufacturer) looked like it had white specs in it too. It would be an interesting experiment.

Somebody has to have tried this! Haven't they??

If there is a thread on this already, I haven't found it yet...

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post #2 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 09:03 PM
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I guess that is one way to do it. I have suggested in the past getting a neutral gray card and taking it to Ace to have it measured with their Datacolor unit. I did measure the Wilsonart laminates with my unit. I think it was about a year ago.

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post #3 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Where would you get a neutral gray card?

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #4 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 09:59 PM
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Very interesting idea! I have a sample of a brand name high contrast grey screen material. I will give this a try first chance I get. I'm not real comfortable saying what company etc so please don't ask.
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post #5 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 10:19 PM
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While you may duplicate the color, this will do nothing in terms of duplicating the reflective qualities, which work hand-in-hand with the color.
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post #6 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Doesn't matter to me what company it was from, if it was a high end screen is all that I'm curious about.

I got a feeling it's going to be like Kentucky Fried Chicken though, there will be one 'secret ingredient for sure.

I actually have a DIY recomendation I am going to follow, this just seemed like something fun to check into.

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post #7 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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You beat me to the punch prof55.

True about the reflective qualities, but knowing the color used is a good start isn't it? I bet it's going to be pretty close to some of the mixes already on here, maybe there is already an exact match.

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post #8 of 100 Old 07-29-2006, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
While you may duplicate the color, this will do nothing in terms of duplicating the reflective qualities, which work hand-in-hand with the color.
Yes this is a good point! The sample I have is a grey with a pearlescent coating to boost the gain to 1.4.

It will be interesting to see what color it matches to though. I suspect the manufacturers have people trolling these forums. I know I would be. :cool:
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post #9 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 12:58 AM
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The spectrophotometers that paint stores use are quite accurate, but there are several problems involved in getting an accurate match this way:

> They are set primarily to measure low gloss surfaces, and gloss is a definite factor in screen construcion. The reflective coatings used on most commercial screens wreaks havoc with them. Hint: have them measure the BACK of the sample - on pvc screens it's the same color without the coating.

> They are designed to deliver the cheapest possible match, in terms of pigment used.

> They are calibrated to produce a good match under store lighting (so the customer will be pleased), which is NOT 6500K. And yes, it is very possible for a match under one light source to be a mismatch under another (metamerism!).

> The operator is usually very inexperienced.

> The match you get is specific to one paint brand, and (theoretically, at least) one gloss level.

In short (too late!), many settings on the spectro would need to be changed. It's possible to adjust it to do what you want, but the operator is probably not willing or able to do this.

Yes, knowing the color is a good start. But you'll notice that commercial screens seem to come in many different shades, and thus rely heavily on the coating applied to the color.

Garry
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post #10 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
...
> They are designed to deliver the cheapest possible match, in terms of pigment used.

> They are calibrated to produce a good match under store lighting (so the customer will be pleased), which is NOT 6500K. And yes, it is very possible for a match under one light source to be a mismatch under another (metamerism!).

> The operator is usually very inexperienced.

> The match you get is specific to one paint brand, and (theoretically, at least) one gloss level.
...
Garry
This is all interesting information.

So what you are saying is to do this there would have to be some parameters met, which does make sense. What made me think of this was all the endless threads, some even ending in bickering and bad feelings between people that are all trying to do the same thing... duplicate a professional screen, and even improve upon it.

To me it just made sense that the first step logically would be to find out what they are doing. That seems easier than mixing this, mixing that... which sometimes sounds like nothing but a lot of hard work put into 'guessing'. No offense to all the efforts people have done with paint mixes, there has been a lot of hard work done... some has paid off... some has just been spinning wheels.

From reading the various posts, it does sound like there are some very knowledgeable people out there working on mixes, and they seem to know what they are talking about. Like I said, I was curious if anyone has tried to get a baseline from an actual manufacturers screen.

Prof just for the sake of fun here... since what you are saying about the gloss(reflective property) makes perfect sense, wouldn't trying to find the color mix used then concentrating on that 'secret ingredient' gloss (said tongue in cheek and smiling... remember this is intended as a fun thread) be logical? Once that is duplicated, then variations can be tried and applied in a much more controlled manner.

I understand most people are just trying to get an inexpensive screen up and don't really care whether they unlock the secrets of the screen universe. To them this thread is probably not of any interest, well... unless the end result actually comes up with something. I still say DIY to me is more about mating a screen that is optimized for one particular projector, that being the one the person owns.

Anyone reading through these forums has to admit though that there have been some pretty heated arguments at times, some even getting nasty about defending their particular mix over said other mix... yet I have never seen anyone mention having a baseline. That comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular, it was just an observation.

Okay nuff said about that, I don't want to go in a negative direction, like I've already said several times already, I thought this would be something fun to investigate... I am probably reinventing the wheel here myself (threadwise) but if this has been discussed and tried I haven't run into it yet.

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post #11 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett
Prof just for the sake of fun here... since what you are saying about the gloss(reflective property) makes perfect sense, wouldn't trying to find the color mix used then concentrating on that 'secret ingredient' gloss (said tongue in cheek and smiling... remember this is intended as a fun thread) be logical? Once that is duplicated, then variations can be tried and applied in a much more controlled manner.
The color is a good baseline, but it varies widely. The following picture gives some examples of commercial screens as well as some widely used paints, with their RGB equivalents. Bear in mind that unless your monitor is properly calibrated, these swatches are only useful for comparison with each other, not with actual materials.

http://home.mchsi.com/~gstoner/pics/swatches.jpg

Note that these are not actual photos of the screen surfaces - they are swatches of the RGB equivalents from spectrophotometer data taken with the proper calibration. The last two (neutral gray & white) are included for comparison. As you can see, the commercial screens are all over the board when it comes to color. Gloss, texture, and the reflective qualities of various additives play a much larger role than actual color.

One of the best things about DIY screens is their versatility. Commercial screens are often a compromise, but you can tailor a DIY screen to your exact requirements. Unfortunately, this often gives rise to the thought that one has created THE perfect screen, when in fact it is only best for one particular theater/projector/seating combo, and even then only in the eyes of its creator.

As you can see, I'm a nut about taking actual measurements and comparing apples to apples. :rolleyes:

Garry
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post #12 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 11:51 AM
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prof makes some good points, but it is not the whole story. The units that you find at HD and Lowes aren't that great. The Datacolor unit that Ace uses (I have a portable version of the same unit) is the most accurate on the market. I hear some new units are coming out that should close the gap. The biggest problem with color matching is pigment strength. If you don't have an accurate measure of pigment strength, then your delta error will be off. Plus, you usually need to do a correction to get it as close as possible a to 100% match. The variance in pigment strength is one reason that no matter what mix you use in DIY, you will not have an accurate match between batches that are mixed. You can get close though by using fewer pigments like just white and black for grey. My guess is that if I was to measure a grey Kodak card or other photo card, then I would probably have mostly white with a little bit of black and maybe a couple of drops of red and/or yellow oxide.

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post #13 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 02:29 PM
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Matchrite spectros are probably the most commonly used, and even the older ones give very reproducible results in competent hands - if they are properly calibrated and the settings are correct for our use. One of the biggest problems is the illuminant setting. Matchrite recommends it be set to the same lighting as in the store, and this will result in a mismatch under D65.

I haven't experienced any problem with pigment strength, and I think the colorant manufacturers monitor this quite closely. I have seen issues with colorant dispensers, though, particularly the old manual ones.
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post #14 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
One of the best things about DIY screens is their versatility. Commercial screens are often a compromise, but you can tailor a DIY screen to your exact requirements. Unfortunately, this often gives rise to the thought that one has created THE perfect screen, when in fact it is only best for one particular theater/projector/seating combo, and even then only in the eyes of its creator.
Garry
That is what I have been saying all along is the biggest benefit of a DIY screen. Plus the personal pride and satisfaction in making it.

I'm sitting here still amazed at all the information on that chart!

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post #15 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
Matchrite spectros are probably the most commonly used, and even the older ones give very reproducible results in competent hands - if they are properly calibrated and the settings are correct for our use. One of the biggest problems is the illuminant setting. Matchrite recommends it be set to the same lighting as in the store, and this will result in a mismatch under D65.

I haven't experienced any problem with pigment strength, and I think the colorant manufacturers monitor this quite closely. I have seen issues with colorant dispensers, though, particularly the old manual ones.

The older ones aren't as good as the Datacolor units. I have heard of some new models coming out, but I have not paid attention in some time.

I disagree with your pigment strength assessment. One has to build a database on the pigment/paint that will be used. The pigment strength used in the database is standardized at 100%. All of the pigment strengths will have to be based off what was used in the database. This is the only way to get close to 100% accurate. Of course, some people can't see a delta error of 2 and some can see an error of .5. Where do you work?

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post #16 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Prof... what have you found out in your research about that elusive reflective component of the 'secret formula' mix?

Keep in mind I am a complete novice right now with the whole DIY screen arena, but I am a fast learner and find all of this fasinating.

What about this stuff? I am suspecting it would be too reflective, but could that maybe be controlled a little?

Ames’ Reflective Safety Paint ~ A reflective safety coating/paint for many traffic and safety applications such as curbs, fire hydrants, walls, wooden poles and other surfaces that need to reflect light at night. This remarkable new product is based on the latest elastomeric technology. It is highly elastic and resists peeling. Containing light-refractive glass beads or lenses suspended in a pure acrylic, the coating reflects light when dry. The product is thick, yet applies easily with either brush or sprayer. Ames’ Reflective Safety Paint is fast drying and cleans up with water. It has excellent adhesion to most surfaces including metal, concrete, asphalt, and wood. It is UV stable.

Here is the most interesting thing... it comes in clear...

Again, I am asking questions to learn, but also I think this is fun and fasinating.

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post #17 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 10:39 PM
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There are many different approachs to the "reflective component". Many screens use a balance between gloss and texture, others include subcomponents such as mica flakes, which are basically tiny "screens within a screen". There's no single right or wrong way to go about it, which is part of what makes DIY screens so interesting.

The safety paint uses glass beads. This makes it retroreflective, meaning it returns light along the same path it arrives. Very handy for traffic and safety applications, but not universally useful for screens. Retroreflectivity is only desirable with a floor mounted projector - with a ceiling mount, much of the projected light is returned toward the projector. In addition, the glass beads are often too coarse for good image definition. The Dalite HighPower uses this technology (but with much smaller beads), and is a very impressive screen in certain circumstances.

There have been several folks here who have experimented with glass beads. A search should provide you with quite a bit of info on the subject.

Garry
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post #18 of 100 Old 07-30-2006, 11:43 PM
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I found the similarity between the High Contrast Matte White and Behr Silverscreen numbers interesting.

I have a sample of the HCMW and it looks like a flat grey with some clear top coat on it. There is a bit of a sheen to it.

This is a very interesting discussion!
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post #19 of 100 Old 07-31-2006, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55
There are many different approachs to the "reflective component". Many screens use a balance between gloss and texture, others include subcomponents such as mica flakes, which are basically tiny "screens within a screen". There's no single right or wrong way to go about it, which is part of what makes DIY screens so interesting.

The safety paint uses glass beads. This makes it retroreflective, meaning it returns light along the same path it arrives. Very handy for traffic and safety applications, but not universally useful for screens. Retroreflectivity is only desirable with a floor mounted projector - with a ceiling mount, much of the projected light is returned toward the projector. In addition, the glass beads are often too coarse for good image definition. The Dalite HighPower uses this technology (but with much smaller beads), and is a very impressive screen in certain circumstances.

There have been several folks here who have experimented with glass beads. A search should provide you with quite a bit of info on the subject.

Garry

Yeah over zealous... I found those threads about 30 minutes after finding that!

The Dalite screens... is it the smaller beads that allow it to be used with ceiling mounted projectors? Nuff said on the reflective paint topic.

The only reason I even thought that was when I was watching the special features on the Superman the Movie DVD there was a section on the costumes they wore on Krypton and they said they got that look by using movie theater screen that had ... you got it... glass balls (they didn't call them beads). Like you said though, there are threads on that already... now I am even closer to reading them all on here :)

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post #20 of 100 Old 07-31-2006, 07:54 AM
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prof,
You didn't answer my question. Where do you work and in what capacity do you use a spectro?

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post #21 of 100 Old 07-31-2006, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
You didn't answer my question. Where do you work and in what capacity do you use a spectro?
I'm self-employed - I build and restore trumpets and cornets. No, really! Here's a sample:

http://home.mchsi.com/~gstoner/pics/195196.jpg

I'm also a paint nut - here's the corner of my basement devoted to paint:

http://home.mchsi.com/~gstoner/pics/paint.jpg

How 'bout you?
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post #22 of 100 Old 07-31-2006, 02:11 PM
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I am self employed as well. I worked with/for a leather coatings company a couple of years ago to help develop a color computer for the leather refinishing market. We looked at and spoke with all of the major spectro companies. Datacolor's units were the first to finally reach a level that was acceptable for color matching for our purposes. After spending months building a database, we then had to spend a couple of more months working the kinks out of the system. I spent time on the phone and at Datacolor doing this. With this unit, I can achieve with correction a delta error of between 0.25% and 1%. At the former, no one would see a difference and the latter can be noticed but you have to look for it (depending on the color as lighter color are easier to see the error). If I were to measure the pigment strength, I could always be between 0 and .5 without correction. As it is, I rely on my supplier to deliver +/- 2% pigments. This took some doing, as (from what I have been told) the industry can vary all the way up to +/- 30%. I have been told that someone (Gretag?) is coming out with some new units that will compete with Datacolor.

Anyway, you win! This is a job for me and as I just knocked over my spectro on the way to the kitchen, I obviously don't care about it that much. Anyone psychotic enough to buy all of that equipment must love this.

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post #23 of 100 Old 07-31-2006, 05:41 PM
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Looks like the man knows a thing or two about paints! Oh... and about trumpets and cornets too.

Meow.
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post #24 of 100 Old 07-31-2006, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like the man knows a thing or two about paints! Oh... and about trumpets and cornets too.
Yeah definitely. He fired back with that chart in matter of hours too, so this is a topic Prof has spent some time researching... which is perfect for this thread.

Now that we have some color matches, any insights on the reflective coating to boost the gain a little?

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post #25 of 100 Old 07-31-2006, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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In doing my 'homework' as part of my education in all of this, I thought maybe I'd throw up here some things for the new people like me that are coming along. I know Prof already explained this, but I though a visual might be nice too.

If you are making use of a high gain projector screen, care should be taken with respect to your projector placement: Placing your projector on a floor-stand would require a different type of screen surface than when the projector is ceiling mounted.

When the projector is positioned on the same side of the normal to the screen center as the audience (the floor mounted version), use should be made of a higher gain screen with a retro-reflective surface.

If the projector and the audience are on the opposite sides of the normal to the projector screen (the ceiling mounted version), use should be made of the higher gain screen with a reflective surface.

This does bring up a question... I would assume, most projectors are ceiling mounted. Never once did I see in any of the advertisements for glass bead screens where they mentioned anything about ceiling mounted screens. Have they overcome the problems with the retro-reflective glass beads or is it more of a buyer beware attitude? They make that awsome gain (2.5 is the average I have been seeing) sound very tempting.

I'm not trying to take this in the direction of buy manufactured screens, I am sold on the DIY concept and think a lot of them perform as well, some even better (Light Fusion is particularly interesting to me) than some very high priced, dare I say over priced manufactured screens.

Me... I need a contrast boosting screen, which is why I am going with the grey (actually Silver Screen is what I will be using first)

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post #26 of 100 Old 08-01-2006, 04:20 AM
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I think it is safe to safe that Prof is now the official resident paint expert.

(possibly a little OCD, but arent we all;))

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post #27 of 100 Old 08-02-2006, 05:43 AM
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Ok this may be a little off topic but I stopped by my local Lowes and picked up some paint cards. Now how do I go about checking the components of the paint. I was thinking about using one of these to paint a screen (when I get that far). Here is what I picked up Wavelry Home Classics American Tradition WV31001 Clean White and WV31005 Snow White. I picked up a couple of Olympis Paints C20-2 Garlic Clove and C40-3 Moonlit Snow. Then I picked up some American Tradition 7002-16 Sawyer White and 7006-24 Anthem White.

Can this information be found on line and if so where?

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post #28 of 100 Old 08-02-2006, 08:57 AM
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Why don't you buy Behr UPW? No need to reinvent the wheel.

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post #29 of 100 Old 08-02-2006, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Prof... on the chart you provided...

If someone wanted their favorite local paint store to mix them any one of those colors, what would they need to provide? The numbers beneath each sample are the RGB equivilent numbers... can they mix paint from that information?

I figure there may be a few people out there with the same question too.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #30 of 100 Old 08-02-2006, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I think a good way for people to use Prof's chart is to narrow down the choices based on their projector and what they need.

If they need a contrast boost and are dealing with some ambient light, look at the greys. I think it's safe to say the more control you have over your lighting, you can go a little lighter with the grey and still get a nice contrast boost without the picture being too dark when you are able to really darken things up at night.

Once a good color match is found for your particular projector, then testing ways to tweak it out can be tried if wanted, but Prof provided a great baseline in my opinion.

The other great thing is people can actually see where Behr Silver Screen and some other paint mixes fall on the chart and how it looks (obviously not image wise) compared to the other greys including the color of some manufactured screens.

It'd be nice to see some of the mud mixes on that chart too. I think that chart really shows people how close some of these mixes and suggested DIY paint projects compare to the color of a commercial screen. I really do think this will help some people decide on a DIY approach over a premade screen now that they can see some color comparisons in this way.

As stated earlier, there is a little more to it with manufactured screens than just the color code, but this is good starting point for many. If we could get some people that came up with mixes to maybe add theirs to the chart I think we will have a great tool here.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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