Laminate Screen Material and Testing! - Page 52 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: What are your screen requirements? (Pick as many as apply)
I want something that is easy to install. 424 18.55%
I want something as inexpensive as possible. 372 16.27%
I want something less than $100. 269 11.77%
I am willing to spend whatever amount is needed as long as it's the best. 68 2.97%
I want a simple one can painted screen option. 68 2.97%
I want an advanced paint mix screen option. 52 2.27%
I want a single material screen option. 290 12.69%
I want something durable. 271 11.85%
I want an ambient light screen. 244 10.67%
I have light control and want a white screen. 235 10.28%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2286. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1531 of 2849 Old 01-27-2007, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I used poplar and it was nice and straight. I ran into the same problem with pine, everything in the store was warped.

I can't remember which store does what, but one of them (Lowes or HD) sells by the piece, the other by linear foot. The boards I got were sold buy the piece and very inexpensive. I think I paid around $13-14 total, something like that.

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post #1532 of 2849 Old 01-27-2007, 06:46 PM
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Picked up some poplar today and made a frame, it is big enough for a 110" image and about an inch or so along each side. I picked up some sports tape for now, just to hide the screws but if I decide to keep the laminate I will break down and get some molding and velvet for a border. The frame took about 90 minutes to build and another 30 to attach and trim the laminate. I also picked up one of those "french cleat" deals to hang the screen. I spent about $40 total on the frame, $103 on the laminate so... if it works, well.... Im happy!

I have no light control in the theater room so I am just not getting ready to fire up the projector, but, I will report back later tonight with my thoughts.. Im really excited.
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post #1533 of 2849 Old 01-27-2007, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Tiddler if you go back a few pages I listed all the color values for Formica again. I spoke to their color lab directly and they spectro'd the samples.

I personally didn't like how Gray Stone looked, to me it had more of a bluish look to it, but I may be wrong. They originally sampled under D75 (Why don't ask me) but they were more than coroporative and enthusiastic about this potential use for their product, and resampled using D65.

I also gave a recap of all the samples went through and my initial thoughts on them.

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post #1534 of 2849 Old 01-27-2007, 10:39 PM
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Alright,

I put the movie Crank in to get the image set up. ALL of my dvds )except the dozen or so I have purchased since we moved) are still in boxes. Right away, with Crank I was able to see a lot more detail than I was able to on just the dull white wall. The colors were very nice and I had no trouble at all with white levels, blacks still suffer but I am pretty sure my projector just is not made to project blacks ( Sanyo Z3)

After I watched a few scenes of Crank my wife brought in one of her recent purchases, The Illusionist. It was an ok movie, kind of slow and the "illusion" was not difficult for me to figure out right away. A few moments before the reveal I asked her if she knew what was going on, she just shook her head no... I told her but she said... I don't think so... then she flipped me off.


The movie its self is very heavily saturated, I had to take the red level down a few clicks and take it from low 1 to mid to compensate. The movie is also very dark which was good because it gave me a chance to play with my iris, brightness, contrast and gamma settings. For the most part, I just set it in powerful mode, iris to -25 brightness, contrast and gamma to 0 and watched the movie.

I am anxious to view some more colorful, bright movies to see how it looks before I make any decisions. I only noticed hot spotting once or twice in the movie and it was not really enough to distract me if I were not looking for it. I worry that the poly top coat will cut down on the already low gain levels.

Size was perfect, I left just enough space for a good border. Only flaw in my design... the sports tape kept falling during the movie.

It may be a week or two before I get a chance to watch anything else, but, I will post more results when I can.
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post #1535 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 04:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Chadci, I went back through several of your posts but can't find what laminate you used. I'm guessing it was Designer White?

FG.

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post #1536 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 10:43 AM
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What is the best way to unroll the laminate? I have read that many have chipped their's and I need the entire piece to be in perfect shape
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post #1537 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 10:54 AM
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Tiddler, as mech said, it is Fashion Gray.

As for unrolling the laminate, hope and pray that it is bound when it is shipped. Mine was not so as soon as the top of the box came off, it poped out like a tight spring.

I am going to be doing some serious ht improvements over the course of the next month or two, the walls and ceiling are going to be very dark, front wall and ceiling will be black, windows will be treated, speakers will be hidden behind a frame covered in black out cloth, there will be a thin stage under the screen with black carpet... and I am doing it myself so it will be time consuming, but, cheap and I might feel like I accomplished something. Until then, though, I will be unable to give a GOOD review of the laminate because other than my dark gray carpet, all of the walls and ceiling in the room are WHITE
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post #1538 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadci View Post

Tiddler, as mech said, it is Fashion Gray.

As for unrolling the laminate, hope and pray that it is bound when it is shipped. Mine was not so as soon as the top of the box came off, it poped out like a tight spring.

I am going to be doing some serious ht improvements over the course of the next month or two, the walls and ceiling are going to be very dark, front wall and ceiling will be black, windows will be treated, speakers will be hidden behind a frame covered in black out cloth, there will be a thin stage under the screen with black carpet... and I am doing it myself so it will be time consuming, but, cheap and I might feel like I accomplished something. Until then, though, I will be unable to give a GOOD review of the laminate because other than my dark gray carpet, all of the walls and ceiling in the room are WHITE

What brand of paint areyou going to use to paint your cieling and front wall?
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post #1539 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 01:18 PM
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I went into the HTR in the evening the other day to discover that the DW had squirmed its way out from behind the clips and was laying on the floor. Taking with it it a couple of speakers. Sadly, one side has a gash that is 12" in, so I will have to trim off 12". So my plans to go for a full size 2.35 eventually are now shelved. I can still get the same size images I was getting, so all is not lost. I cannot recommend the mirror clips at all, especially not for a 5'x12' sheet. Too much weight to support.
I have the frame set out on the basement floor, got it square, just need to screw the veneer onto it. Have to get a few more tools to get the job done right. I now have a 5'x11' screen max. Still big enough.

Tom, your construction looks good, hope all goes well.

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post #1540 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 02:04 PM
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I was looking at lowes today and think I will use red oak as a frame with metal corner braces and some stips of metal on the back to reduce warping. I will seal the oak before construction.
I was going to cover the oak after it dries with long strips of velcro and liquid nail velcro to the laminate, and put them together that way. I was thinking of the luan flooring as well, and even looked at hollow core doors in to join together, like 2 24" ones, they are smooth and inexpensive, but heavy IMO.
I think the 1x3x8 red oak is around $7 with tax and 4 pieces would be strong and inexpensive, and light. Another $20-$30 in metal bracing and velcro and $5 in sealer should make a strong, light weight, low warp frame. I HOPE!
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post #1541 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 02:35 PM
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I recorded some intermediate weights while constructing a 120 inch diagonal screen, in case anyone is wondering if they can lift whatever they're building when done:
1x3 frame was about 20 pounds
adding an 0.25 inch flooring substrate added 36 pounds (total of 56)
after laminating with DW added another 17 (total of 73)
adding 30 feet of backlight rope added anothr 5-6 (total of almost 80 pounds)

I mounted with the homemade french cleat method, but it's still a lot of weight figuring only one screw on each side probably carries its load (I drove a 2.5 inch #10 screw into two studs each side for the wall side of the cleat).

Anyhow, I love the result and the backlight is cool, I need to re-think by black border now as I originally planned to snug up to the wall and I think I want to be about 0.75 away to give space for the light to leak out appropriately. If you buy the backlight rope, I recommend you pick up a couple dozen nylon retaining straps, 0.375 inch size as there aren't enough little snap-in clips in the light box unless you have it stretched tight somehow.



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post #1542 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GameCoder View Post

I went into the HTR in the evening the other day to discover that the DW had squirmed its way out from behind the clips and was laying on the floor. Taking with it it a couple of speakers. Sadly, one side has a gash that is 12" in, so I will have to trim off 12". So my plans to go for a full size 2.35 eventually are now shelved. I can still get the same size images I was getting, so all is not lost. I cannot recommend the mirror clips at all, especially not for a 5'x12' sheet. Too much weight to support.
I have the frame set out on the basement floor, got it square, just need to screw the veneer onto it. Have to get a few more tools to get the job done right. I now have a 5'x11' screen max. Still big enough.

Tom, your construction looks good, hope all goes well.

I believe I was the original person who posted using mirror clips, and with great success too. I have a 5x10 sheet (as much of it as possible for a 16:9 screen) which has held up with no issues at all.

Did you put the mirror clips into studs? Once the mirror clips are tight to the laminate, nothing is moving them. If you only anchor the mirror clips into drywall, even with an anchor, you are asking for problems. The laminate (as we all know) has little mass, and no force to "push" the clips out of the wall.

The mirror clip method was used (by me) to give me a near flush mount, as that is the look I wanted for my space. Others have built frames and put rope lights behind the screens and thus needed more space.

I still maintain that using mirror clips is fine, as long as they are properly placed into the wall. I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, and hope that all is well with your equipment.
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post #1543 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 05:49 PM
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Not sure what brand of paint I will use. Probably Behr
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post #1544 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Chadci, Glidden and Behr are the same company. If your painting walls and ceiling, you can save a little money and get Glidden. They will even be able to match the Behr color if you don't find a match in the swatch rack. Unless you're going for one of Behr's faux finishes like suede, leather or any of the other textures... you should be able to save a little with Glidden.

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post #1545 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

Here is the raw data. I know a few people out there may be more interested in this than charts and graphs.


Next let's look at the RGB graph. This shows the color linearity of the samples. Most are showing very similar characteristics to those of manufactured screens.

wbassett and/or prof-

Can you describe the data source or process used to obtain these RGB colors?

A friend of mine was comparing these laminate colors to paint samples, so he created the following swatch chart based from the RGB values:



Is it really possible that my "Designer White" screen has that much of a lavender tint?!

When comparing it to the color swatch from wilsonart.com, the RGB reading is 244/244/242... which is much closer to what I would guess by actually looking at the piece of laminate.

Can you share some more info on your RGB=239/233/246 measurement for DW?
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post #1546 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

wbassett and/or prof-

Can you describe the data source or process used to obtain these RGB colors?

A friend of mine was comparing these laminate colors to paint samples, so he created the following swatch chart based from the RGB values:

Is it really possible that my "Designer White" screen has that much of a lavender tint?!

When comparing it to the color swatch from wilsonart.com, the RGB reading is 244/244/242... which is much closer to what I would guess by actually looking at the piece of laminate.

Can you share some more info on your RGB=239/233/246 measurement for DW?

The measurements were done with a Hunterlab D25, and converted to RGB with EasyRGB. The problem with using color swatches in this manner (though I've done it too) is that they are being shown on a monitor which in itself has a different white point than the one we are trying to show, and that white point is displayed right next to the swatch. This takes the color data "out of context", so to speak. Take a look at this picture:



In it, I've adjusted white to be 239 233 247 (which is as close as I could get with a reasonable size jpg compression). In context, the whites still look plenty white, to me at least. If the gamma were increased, the whites would look even whiter.

Garry
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post #1547 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 08:53 PM
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wbassett, Thanks for the heads up I had no Idea. At least for the time being I will just be painting, no special finishes or anything. That may change as time progresses.

Got the projector out of the closet again tonight ( in the closet for safe keeping until I get it mounted) and we watched Bandidas. What a fun cute movie. It was one I picked up for my wife a week or two ago, not expecting much but I really enjoyed it. The pq was ok and I cannot comment on sq as I am only running stereo mode at the time ( so many wires to run, no time to run them)

I found myself playing with the settings trying to get the laminate to do what I wanted it to do and I am getting closer, but still just not quite there yet. I need to pop in a copy of Cars or Bad Boys 2, maybe 5th Element to see how a good transfer looks... but... the majority of my dvds are medicore at best.
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post #1548 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Clarence there are a lot of factors as Garry said.

The RGB is 239 233 246 and Yxy is 83.12 0.3089 0.316

When the xy values are plotted, it is very close to neutral at C illuminance (6774K) That definitely isn't D65 neutral (6500K) but it should be extremely easy to adjust just about any projector and calibrate to DW. (C is neutral at .3101 .3162)

We've seen this with other projectors and paint too. Bud uses a white with lamp black for his gray, I'd have to go through his thread for the exact mix components and ratios, but for many it would appear very blue. He reported that he has his projector set to D75 and for his setup the color is very good and produces an excellent image. My projector and probably some others don't seem to be able to extend that far from D65, so I couldn't compensate for something closer to D75 than D65 (1000K temperature difference in illuminants verses 274K difference from D65 to C) At least I could not compensate for SS which is almost midway between C and D75.

I have every known DIY application that has has had data sampling done plotted out on several charts. It is interesting to see where they fall and which ones are used by many and are some of the best performing screens (both substrate method and painted screens) are located on the charts. I am waiting to hear back on a few things from a couple different people to make sure everything in the graphs are right before posting them. I'd rather wait than put up something that isn't accurate and then have to retract it.

Bill

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post #1549 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 09:12 PM
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Well, it took me the better part of the weekend, but I did it

(Wilsonart DW, 5x8 sheet)


I made a the frame using 1x3 poplar. I didn't like the looks of the sharp corners, so I used a 3/8 roundover bit on the inside and outside edges. I also decided to recess the corner braces to avoid interference with the laminate. I then covered the pieces with "Moleskin" from Joanne's ($4.00/yd) (attaching the fabric was quite a PITA, to make the ends look nice). To attach the laminate to the frame, I found some nifty screws ("Truss Washer Lath Self Drill") at Lowes. They have a nice large head, and are self-drilling, making predrilling unnecessary. The complete assembly is quite sturdy. Unless one wants the laminate on the top of the frame (vs the back, like I have done), I don't think that a substrate is at all necessary...

Some pics:




LOOKS LIKE ITS SNOWING, LOL



CLOSEUP TO SHOW DETAIL



FRAME ALL DONE



FRAME CLOSEUP



NIFTY SCREWS (A SAMPLE IS ON THE TOP LEFT CORNER OF THE BOX)



ALL DONE



Now I just need a new projector
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post #1550 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 09:13 PM
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My DW is on its way and I'm getting ready to build my frame. I'm planning on a 60x107 viewable screen size.

I have read two basic ways of mounting the laminate.
1) screwing it into the frame all around
2) gluing it to a suitable substrate.

Personally I'm afraid of glue (especially contact cement).

Which method is the best?

Thanks.
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post #1551 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55 View Post



I've adjusted white to be 239 233 247 (which is as close as I could get with a reasonable size jpg compression). In context, the whites still look plenty white

Thanks Garry. That's a perfect example. If I hadn't measured the "white" square for the RGB values I would've never thought that so much tint can relatively disappear.
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post #1552 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks great hiperco

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post #1553 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Thanks Garry. That's a perfect example. If I hadn't measured the "white" square for the RGB values I would've never thought that so much tint can relatively disappear.

Tint disappeared? Where it go, and where did it come from?

Please name the tint--your comments seem to have gone over my head.

Thanks,
Paul
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post #1554 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Paul it's not a pigment tint or anything light that. It has more to do with the Illuminant temperature and how colors interact with them.

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post #1555 of 2849 Old 01-28-2007, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohnston007 View Post

Tint disappeared? Where it go, and where did it come from?

Please name the tint--your comments seem to have gone over my head.

Thanks,
Paul

It's not really a "tint" except in relation to a different white point. Look at the picture that Clarence posted of the color swatches, then compare to this pic, which is the same swatches, but this time with a black background:




They're the same swatches (really!), but without the reference point of monitor white (255 255 255). A good example of how easily the human eye will adjust. When monitor white is present in any comparison, it will naturally appear white and everything else will appear "tinted" to some degree.

But this is not the case with a projector/screen combination. Then, there's no other reference than the projector. When red, green, and blue are full on, this is what the eye will perceive as white. The challenge is to match the reflectance curve of the screen to the output of the projector, or vice-versa. Only then will both screen and projector be working at maximum efficiency, and colors truly correct.

Garry
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post #1556 of 2849 Old 01-29-2007, 12:43 AM
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It took me two days to read the whole thread...thanks to all who contributed to the detailed tests and all.

My Z5 PJ will arrive on Tuesday. My light control in my studio is abysmal. One whole wall is top to bottom glass in combination with the strong Hawaiian sun light.

As an initial solution I hung double aluminum mylar sheets over the opening and it is not bad but it might need tripling to use a low lumen PJ.

Everything considered, I will either build a screen with FG or the untested Platinum. Monday I'll have a look at samples at HD and Lowe's here.

On paper the numbers of the Platinum look really good. My screen will be limited to 87" width due to the small place I live in.

Looking at the lower RGB numbers in regard to green, I remembered that the human eye is more sensitive to green than other colors. Maybe commercial screen manufacturers tuned their screens already to match that hyped sensitivity.

On poly coating, as an artist I'm used to apply a lot of acrylic based mediums including different gloss medium, including total flat ones.

Professional artist media have superior qualities than those even in most trades.

Such acrylic media have to survive crinkling canvasses and time under UV light to be accepted. My own testing has shown that e.g. LIQUITEX medium can handle a lot of abuse, it can be bend and pulled since it will never harden to a crystal like structure.

Artist have to send their canvasses often rolled up in tubes around the world and the acrylic paints and media are made to survive even in thick applications up to 3/16".

Therefore it might be an appropriate coating for the FG laminate. The liquitex "matte" medium version is guaranteed non yellowing, non reflective and to stay flexible and would possible survive any bending of the laminate if adhesion to the laminate surface is proper.

Now this is where it gets interesting since I don't know enough about the resin coating on the laminate, maybe they use a type of mold release agent which needs to be removed before any decent adhesion is possible.

I'll collect some samples tomorrow and do some testing in regard to adhesion. Artist acrylic medium is the strongest of the acrylic bases out there and will not change its optical qualities. I have seen regular acrylic coatings yellowing and cracking over time.

I have done testing with these media on my own paintings to see what crazy range of applications they can handle and I was positively surprised. I put e.g. extreme glossy medium on my canvas that resembles glazed ceramic tile effect and than covered that with a good layer of matte medium. The reflection was gone after drying, it just killed the gloss altogether! That is powerful performance!

Acrylic matte medium is available in artist supply stores and online. Price for 32 fl.ounces is about $20 and should be plenty for even large screens. Bottles come as small as 4 ounces.
Liquid is milky when wet and dries clear, translucent.

You might want to wait for my test results before going shopping. I'll need a bit more info on the baking process of laminate to see what surface were really dealing with.

I'll post an update in the coming days including possible surface prep.
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post #1557 of 2849 Old 01-29-2007, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GameCoder View Post

I went into the HTR in the evening the other day to discover that the DW had squirmed its way out from behind the clips and was laying on the floor. Taking with it it a couple of speakers. Sadly, one side has a gash that is 12" in, so I will have to trim off 12". So my plans to go for a full size 2.35 eventually are now shelved. I can still get the same size images I was getting, so all is not lost. I cannot recommend the mirror clips at all, especially not for a 5'x12' sheet. Too much weight to support.
I have the frame set out on the basement floor, got it square, just need to screw the veneer onto it. Have to get a few more tools to get the job done right. I now have a 5'x11' screen max. Still big enough.

Tom, your construction looks good, hope all goes well.

Bummer about the crash. I received my 5x12 sheet last week and there is no way it would hold up with clips as well. I ended up with the thinner grade ( I failed to specify thickness on ordering) so that may be the reason some are able to use clips and others not.

What I did in the end is build a box frame out of 1x6 lumber and grooved the top and bottom pieces to get the sheet to curve. The left and right ends of the sheet stick out about 5.5 inches from the wall. That helps with sagging so far. We'll see what it does over time.

The curve will also help in directing more light to the viewers so I can maximize my screen size (and after Clarence's posts, I won't go back to a smaller screen if I can do anything about it )

Richard
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post #1558 of 2849 Old 01-29-2007, 06:37 AM
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It's not really a "tint" except in relation to a different white point.

They're the same swatches (really!), but without the reference point of monitor white (255 255 255). A good example of how easily the human eye will adjust. When monitor white is present in any comparison, it will naturally appear white and everything else will appear "tinted" to some degree.

But this is not the case with a projector/screen combination. Then, there's no other reference than the projector. When red, green, and blue are full on, this is what the eye will perceive as white.

Here's more shocking evidence:

Trick question: What color is the "white" square?



The "white" square (pointed to by the red markers) is in that test image is (239, 233, 247).


Same as the (239, 233, 247) "lavender" tint of the Designer White laminate (also pointed to by a red marker)...




For a true "white" reference (RGB=255,255,255) look at the "white" color selection box (255, 255, 255) on the right side of the screen (below the red square... above where it displays the R=239 value).
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post #1559 of 2849 Old 01-29-2007, 06:43 AM
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hiperco, I wish mine looked that nice!I am sure that when I have more time to invest it will but for now I just have the laminate screwed down to a frame and a sports tape border that keeps peeling off. I too am not looking forward to attaching fabric to a frame!
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post #1560 of 2849 Old 01-29-2007, 07:13 AM
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I guess that must be it, thinner grade sheet.
Oh, well...
All is not lost by any means.
Going to finish construction today, hopefully.
I want to watch movies again!!!
On with the project...

Total PodCastrophe
"Lowering The Bar For Podcasting"
(Podcast=FREE MP3 audio show no iPod required)
"Inside The Podcasters' Studio" (monthly article in PUM)
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