RS-MaxxMudd Experiments - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:04 PM
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OK. Sounds good bud. I am going to try my own experiments, that is if I can get some mirror samples soon. I am going to give it a go with a transluscent matte white base on a mirror and will try an etched mirror. I am going to topcoat with a transluscent mixture of RGB interference powders. I don't have anymore interference silver left. Gotta get me more of that paint! I only want to prove or disprove to myself about this fusion thing.

Meow.
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Old 08-31-2006, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there any further interest in the window painting experiment?
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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RS-MaxxMudd represents the best rollable DIY Screen Paint mix I have tried so far. Compared to a (1:1:1:1), paint + poly + pearl + Delta Silver Metallic mix it does exhibit observable improvements in ambient light performance, brightness of whites, and a wider viewing cone.

These improvements come at the cost of a more difficult to roll paint. It requires the kind of roller painting technique described in the Advance Roller Painting Instructions .

While it was demonstrated that a mirror introduces a light fusion effect, it could not be duplicated by rolling RS-MaxxMudd on mirror tiles. The thickness, uniformity, and composition of the paint layer are quite critical and would require spray painting to apply correctly. I cannot comment any further than this on Light Fusion DIY Screen applications.

I would recommend RS-MaxxMudd as a good rollable DIY Screen paint for those who are willing to commit the time and effort required to develop the skill needed to apply it properly.

That's it, that's all.
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

RS-MaxxMudd represents the best rollable DIY Screen Paint mix I have tried so far. Compared to a (1:1:1:1), paint + poly + pearl + Delta Silver Metallic mix it does exhibit observable improvements in ambient light performance, brightness of whites, and a wider viewing cone.

These improvements come at the cost of a more difficult to roll paint. It requires the kind of roller painting technique described in the Advance Roller Painting Instructions .

While it was demonstrated that a mirror introduces a light fusion effect, it could not be duplicated by rolling RS-MaxxMudd on mirror tiles. The thickness, uniformity, and composition of the paint layer are quite critical and would require spray painting to apply correctly. I cannot comment any further than this on Light Fusion DIY Screen applications.

I would recommend RS-MaxxMudd as a good rollable DIY Screen paint for those who are willing to commit the time and effort required to develop the skill needed to apply it properly.

That's it, that's all.

And for those who aren't able/willing to aquire the advanced roller skill would you recommend the paint + poly + pearl + Delta Silver Metallic mix as the second best alternative? If so then what color "paint" (upw, whispy, primer, ???).

Once again we are truly greatful for all your efforts!

DD
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedeal View Post

And for those who aren't able/willing to aquire the advanced roller skill would you recommend the paint + poly + pearl + Delta Silver Metallic mix as the second best alternative? If so then what color "paint" (upw, whispy, primer, ???).

It is easier to roll without problems with tracks or banding. It is my understanding that the Wispy Gray is more neutral than Silverscreen so I would be more inclined to use it if you want to enhance the blacks as much as possible. I probably would not include the Delta Silver Metallic, because it will further darken the shade of gray.

If you want a silvery white screen (totaly darkened viewing) then just use the Behr UPW Flat Latex with the Poly, Pearl, and Delta Silver Metallic. Again dropping the Delta Silver Metallic will produce a much whiter screen but with a little less gain.

There are other fairly neutral shades of gray lighter than the wispy gray. Bombadil Gray and Light Bombadil Gray fall between Wispy Gray and white.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

It is easier to roll without problems with tracks or banding. It is my understanding that the Wispy Gray is more neutral than Silverscreen so I would be more inclined to use it if you want to enhance the blacks as much as possible. I probably would not include the Delta Silver Metallic, because it will further darken the shade of gray.

If you want a silvery white screen (totaly darkened viewing) then just use the Behr UPW Flat Latex with the Poly, Pearl, and Delta Silver Metallic. Again dropping the Delta Silver Metallic will produce a much whiter screen but with a little less gain.

There are other fairly neutral shades of gray lighter than the wispy gray. Bombadil Gray and Light Bombadil Gray fall between Wispy Gray and white.

Did you leave out gold in the original maxmud formula - any noticable effect?
Thanks again,

DD
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedeal View Post

Did you leave out gold in the original maxmud formula - any noticable effect?
Thanks again,

DD

No I did not try that. My understanding is that pb_maxxx added the pale gold metallic to warm the flesh tones slightly. Pb knows a heck of a lot more about this than I do.
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Is there any further interest in the window painting experiment?


Tiddler

Thanks again for doing the testing across the board and also the window paint test, I think I have seen what I needed to see and now have a pretty clear idea of the opacity of the mix per coat. Only last experiment you might want to try with it for no other reason than it might be fun to know is now that you have 5 coats on it turn it around and project to the glass side.

Your final conclusion was about what I thought I might read as we all came to the same conclusions pretty much thru this process. I know you have plans to do a write up starting at simplest and going to hardest or mild to wild something like flat white will be the starting point and then go up the scale. When you do that write up all I ask is that you and all reading it keep in mind all this visual data collected came from viewing just one projector at a given set of settings. That is a pretty big factor to consider when doing a ranking. There is no doubt in my mind of the affects of the metallic now seeing your ABC side by side tests. Several showed marked improvements over the simpler samples and supported those improvements over the same viewing cone. In order to do that the paint mixes used had to be returning more of the projected light and wasting less of it. Or in other words the screen has a higher efficiency. The term gain is widely used and a component of gain is efficiency but the two are not one in the same.

Its also been learned there are several ways to produce gain thru these experiments.

I believe all the knowledge needed to construct the next generation DIY screen paint is contained in this thread and the threads of the last two months. If someone wants to read and reread these threads and ponder all the thoughts and ideas and compare all the images offered, they will have the ability thru more experimentation to produce a screen concept totally new and will totally blow away everything to date including manufactured screens.

Lastly Tiddler will you have all your photos available on photobucket or some other server? I know the links appear in a lot of different threads and with edits they seem to come and go. I would like to collect the total photo archive if at all possible. To refer to and have.


Bud

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Old 08-31-2006, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Old 08-31-2006, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

I know you have plans to do a write up starting at simplest and going to hardest or mild to wild something like flat white will be the starting point and then go up the scale. When you do that write up all I ask is that you and all reading it keep in mind all this visual data collected came from viewing just one projector at a given set of settings.

I guess we may as well get into this now!

I'm not sure I am up to dealing with the crap that would come with such a selection guide. Assuming I am, then there is a pretty big assumption that I would have to make. That is you have a properly functioning projector. One that can be calibrated properly given a white or light gray screen surface under reasonable ambient lighting conditions. I also would assume the user has properly matched the size of screen to the light output of the projector. For example if you have a Z2 with a 300" screen you are way beyond my help.

It would not be a simple incremental scale. It would be a grid. The first dimension being gray shade ranging from white to a dark shade about the darkness of Wispy Gray or Silverscreen. I think 1 or 2 intermediate shades of gray is plenty. Given that, the use of Delta Silver Metallic also alters gray shade, there would be a fairly comprehensive selection of grays. The next dimension is an incremental addition of enhancement ingredients. In the grid would be boxes with 5 ratings in them. The ratings would indicate ease of application (which includes wall blemish tolerance), black performance, white performance, L/M/H lumens, and pop.

Color balance is not rated because it must be neutral. The lumens is a rough indication of gain and therefore gives an idea of whether a dim, average, or bright projector is ideal. Pop would be a somewhat subjective scale that really is more of an indication of the complexity of mix.

As I have stated many time before I have no intention in addressing solutions that require spray painting.

For example (can't make a grid here because spaces get stripped):
  • UPW Flat White == 5/1/5/M/1
  • UPW Flat White + Poly + Pearl == 3/1/5/L/4
  • Darkest Gray == 5/5/1/H/1
  • Medium Gray + Poly + Pearl + Delta Silver Metallic == 2/5/3/M/4
  • RS-MaxxMudd == 1/4/4/M/5
Ease / Blacks / Whites / Lumens / Pop

Gray Shades:
  • white
  • silver white
  • light gray
  • Light Silver Gray
  • Medium Gray
  • Medium Silver Grey
  • Dark Gray
  • Dark Silver Gray

Enhancement Levels:
  • 25% Poly
  • 50% Poly
  • (2:2:1)Paint + Poly + Pearl
  • (1:1:1) Paint + Poly + Pearl
  • (2:2:1:1) Paint + Poly + Pearl + delta Silver Metallic
  • (1:1:1:1) Paint + Poly + Pearl + Delta Silver Metallic
  • RS-MaxxMudd

This should get the user in the ball park. Having read the Investigation of Paint Ingredients, they would know how to tweak the mix if they were so inclined. I should point out that the Investigation of Ingredients is only in a very rough draft form right now. Some of the photos need to be retaken and more comprehensive screen shots using bcortez's test images need to be used. I have demonstration panels of most of the variations so photo examples would be available. I may have to send the samples to someone who can take measurements.

That should give you an idea of what I may do.

In addition to the paint solutions wbasset has identified 4 Wilsonart laminates that should work. They include a white and three shades of gray. Testing need to performed on these but a selection guide should identify where these rigid screen material fit in. Ideally the more commonly used fabrics and polywall type materials would be identified as well.

That's roughly what I had in mind.
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are a few more photos. They are in pairs, front (paint side) and rear (glass side).


Room Light, Front



Room Light, Rear



Room Light Closeup, Front



Room Light Closeup, Rear




Flash, Front



Flash, Rear



Flash Closeup, Front



Flash Closeup, Rear



Ambient Light Front



Ambient Light Rear
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Some more front and rear shots:


Color Bars, On Axis, Front



Color Bars, On Axis, Rear



Color Bars, Side Seat Front



Color Bars Side Seat Rear



Color Bars Off Axis Front



Color Bars Off Axis Rear
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Old 09-03-2006, 04:06 AM
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Tiddler is this your dad?


Just teasing of course and nothing bad was meant to either you or Tryg... in fact between the two of you I don't think I have seen more comprehensive testing between screens and mixes anywhere on the forums. There should be a way for the both of you to get together, the thought of that and the testing that would be done is mind boggling!

Your work and his should be put together in one amazing test thread that cover's everything old, new, manufactured, and DIY.

You're getting burnt out I know, but who knows, in a few months you may be itching to do something like that and some more experiments. I will say Tryg used some more 'interesting' screen images in some of his test shots, although sometimes they tended to distract from the purpose of the tests for obvious reasons.

Also someday I'd like to see some testing/comparisons with some of the other mixes too... Bombadil Gray, Light Bombadil Gray, CGIII, the RP Imaging neutral gray paint, and a Light Fusion and Black Flame screen. Liquiscreen has been mentioned on the threads as well, however it doesn't seem to be used anymore but it is still available. I think it may not be used anymore because some current DIY techniques possibly meet or exceed it, at least the mix that was available back in 2003...but they have a purported 1.6 gain for the WhitePlus, and now there is a gray version (True Gray), just for testing it would be interesting. The Rose Brand website even sells sample Goo panels in 8"x12"($5.15) or 16"x24" (27.85).

For the LF and BF screens, I think for the best comparisons the only way to do that would be to see if MM could whip up some small panels of both, anything else would be subject to possible technique flaws and render the comparison's void.

As far as your latest window shots, it was interesting to see the backside of the glass. As you guys said, the flat paint looks like a gloss from the back.

I look forward to any future things you experiment with and test out, as well as reading about Bud and benven's upcoming experiments.

Hat's off to you Tiddler...

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-06-2006, 12:23 PM
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hey tiddler, if you have the time, I'd like to see a comparison between the rs-maxx and the wilsonart designer white laminate.

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Old 09-06-2006, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have any laminate materials.
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Old 09-06-2006, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodK View Post

hey tiddler, if you have the time, I'd like to see a comparison between the rs-maxx and the wilsonart designer white laminate.

Rod I would say the picture quality will be pretty close to the same in a dark environment, but the MaxxMudd will do better in ambient light.

Down the road there will be some comparison shots that you are asking for.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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Old 09-06-2006, 10:25 PM
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I just hope I can get all the answers i'm looking for before the end of this month.(that is when my new house will be ready and my 2nd home theater construction will begin)

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Old 09-07-2006, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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If your starting the home theater at the end of the month then you actually have more time than that. Other than leaving room for the screen I see no need to rush your choice. A flat white primed wall will serve as an adequate screen until you decide on the ultimate solution. Don't rush!
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Old 09-12-2006, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Recently I did a little experiment to determine what the Delta Pearl and Silver Metallic are made up of. Actually prof55 described what art paint metallic paints are made up of and I stumbled on a way to confirm it.

When cleaning brushes in a cup of water I noticed that the color of the metallic paint seemed to be dissolved in the water while the metallic flakes were floating on the top of the water.

So here is prof's description of art type metallic paints:

Colored metallic paints are usually composed of a transparent base, pigments, and either mica or aluminum flakes. The pigment is the only real source of the color - the mica or aluminum is for sparkle only, though it may contribute a wanted or unwanted color when used in a screen. And not always the same color, either - since they can act like tiny prisms, the color can depend on viewing angle. In suspension, this would usually average out to a single color, but that color can vary quite a bit with film thickness, since it is dependent on the orientation of the shiny bits.

The Silver Metallic caused the water to take on a grey tint due to the grey pigment. There was a large amount of mica specs floating in the water. The Pearl caused the water to get milky with mica flakes floating in the water. The Silver Metallic appears to have a significantly higher concentration of mica fakes. The flakes look the same from both paints. So I think this confirms Prof's description.

This has lead me to believe I can now explain how the RS-MaxxMudd works. I will attempt to do so over the next couple of days. It will be done in installment posts.

Please feel free to jump in at any time with comments our questions.

I will start with a description of each of the ingredient off-the-shelf paints and what contributions they make to the mix.

Then we will look at the intricate balancing act PB had to perform to get it all to work together to produce the results we saw in the preceding experiments.
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Old 09-14-2006, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey folks, I have several irons in the fire at the moment, so if you are interested in my explanation of how the RS-MaxxMudd mix works, then bump this thread every few days, especially if I seemed to have forgotten to get back to it.

Thanks!
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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<<< UNDER CONSTRUCTION >>>

Acknowledgement

I would just like to take a moment to thank prof55 for sharing his knowledge of paints and color theory with us. If he had not posted the following comments in the RGB Paint Mix Experiments & Discussion thread I would still be unsure how the combination of ingredients in RS-MaxxMudd come together to produce such a good DIY screen paint solution.

"Colored metallic paints are usually composed of a transparent base, pigments, and either mica or aluminum flakes. The pigment is the only real source of the color - the mica or aluminum is for sparkle only, though it may contribute a wanted or unwanted color when used in a screen. And not always the same color, either - since they can act like tiny prisms, the color can depend on viewing angle. In suspension, this would usually average out to a single color, but that color can vary quite a bit with film thickness, since it is dependent on the orientation of the shiny bits." prof55

Unknowingly benven also provided a piece of the puzzle for me. He continually and infactically states that the base coat or substrate should be a flat white to increase viewing cone. In benven's case the flat white base is used in conjunction with a clear coat of metallic particles. This type of mixture would be impossible to roll but if you flatten all the layers into one layer you get something that sounds a lot like RS-MaxxMudd. It also becomes a rollable solution.

I would also like to thank pb_maxxx for sharing RS-MaxxMudd and it's application with us. It is an accomplishment that he should be very proud of. This is a "sterling" example of his abilities as an artist to balance the paint components in just the right proportions to produce an excellent screen paint that remains rollable by most with a little training. Bravo! Well Done!


Introduction

There is no doubt that similar or better performance could be achieved using other ingredients but pb_maxxx elected to stay true to the spirit of DIY. Therefore he strove to create a screen solution that is doable by the vast majority of regular folks using ingredients that are commonly available. RS-MaxxMudd can be successfully applied with some practice and standard paint rollers. Ingredients were restricted to those available off-the-shelf at retailers such as Home Depot and Michaels.

In order to explain RS-MaxxMudd we need to start looking at the off-the-shelf ingredients. Once we break the off-the-shelf ingredients down into the component parts we can discuss the purpose of each of the components.


Delta Gleams Silver Metallic #02603

Contributing Components:
Mica Flakes: These are tiny flakes of mica that act like tiny mirrors. If you dissolve some of the Silver Metallic in water you will see that there is a high concentration of mica in the paint. These flakes will sparkle silver red and blue on the stir stick. I think they are actually clear and the color you see due to the way the light reflects off the mica surfaces.

Pigment: The silver grey color comes from the grey tinted pigment. It is likely that the tint used is Lamp Black or something similar. The Delta Silver Metallic is the lightest of the Silver Metallics available from Behr, Folkart, Decoart

Clear Base: The clear base makes the paint translucent. This allows the mica flakes within the paint film to reflect some light. The combination of the mica flakes and translucence is what produces the specularity we expect from a metallic paint.
Primary Contribution: I believe the primary reason for including the Delta Silver Metallic was to contribut large enough quantities of mica flakes without adding too much Lamp Black. Pb_maxxx posted many times that other Silver Metallic paints were too dark to start with. I often wonder if pb_maxxx, in hindsite, might have looked for an off-the-shelf source of mica flakes that did not include any grey pigment at all.


Delta Gleams Pearl Finish #02601

Contributing Components:
Mica Flakes: Pearl finish paints also contain some tiny flakes of mica. If you dissolve some of the Pearl in water you will see that there are flakes but not anywhere near the concentration seen with the Silver Metallic. As far as I could tell looking at the flakes, dissolved out of the paint, the same mica flakes are used in both the Pearl and Silver Metallic.

Pigment: There is some white (or near white) pigment that give the Pearl its white color.

Clear Base: The clear base makes the paint translucent. In the case of the Pearl it is almost transparent. This allows the mica flakes within the paint film to reflect some light. The low concentration of pigment normally allows the mica to produce some color effects. Once combined with the Silver Metallic this effect is obscured.
Primary Contribution: I believe the primary reason for including the Pearl was to introduce some white pigment to balance off the gray pigment from the Delta Silver Metallic. I suspect there was also a hope that by using the Pearl the concentration of mica would be maintained. Or it may be that pb_maxxx wanted to reduce the concentration of mica but that would have been easier with additional Poly and UPW.


Delta Gleams Metallic Pale Gold #02624

Contributing Components
Mica Flakes: As a metallic paint the Pale Gold contains a high concentration of mica flakes.

Pigment: The pale gold appearance is achieved with a yellow pigment. The color yellow is made up of Red and Green so the inclusion of a yellow pigmented paint is similar to adding some red and green pigment.

Clear Base: The clear base serves the same purpose as for the Silver Metallic.
Primary Contribution: It has been stated that the Pale Gold was intended to improve the flesh tones. Screen paints that contain Lamp Black often result in grey looking flesh colors. I believe the Pale Gold (Yellow = Red+Green) does this by balancing off too much blue introduced by the Silver metallic grey pigment that contains some Lamp Black. Or in AVS terms the Pale Gold Metallic counters the Blue push commonly seen with Lamp Black and UPW.


Behr Interior Flat Ultra Pure White (UPW) 100% Acrylic Latex No. 1050

Minwax Clear Satin Polycrylic

Distilled Water
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:57 AM
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First, let's get back to RS-MaxxMudd's roots.

MMud-SE (Silver Edition)
Behr UPW-Flat
Behr Deep Base
Behr Silver Metallic
Behr White Opal Pearlecence

MMud-SE is the precursor to all the AL derivitives. It's properties and performance did far more toward improving AL viewing than any Mix had up to that point.

As such, it attracted PB-Maxx's attention and he PM'd me to "ask" if I would "allow" him to suggest an additional component (Poly), as well as the omission of another.(Deep Base) I stated that all is open to revision, and needed no "permission" to be attempted, if not an immedate acceptance or application by me personally.
His "request" showed a decided bend toward courtesy and respect for one's work that can be sorely lacking around AVS at times.

He whipped up a sample and reported back excellent potential results, leading me to produce a 140" Diagonal monster LF that was featured in the Thread "The Effort Continues". Using only the Mix with just the addition of the Poly proved "illuminating".

Next up....reducing the degree of "Grey" even a small amount of Behr SM added into the equation. Delta SM did that nicely, as well as allowed the addition of considerably greater amounts of that type SM, ramping up the reflectivity quotent.

The substitution of the Behr WOP for Delta White Pearl produced similar gains. Pale Mettalic Gold came somewhat later in response to observation of the "small" amount of blue push apparent in Flesh tones (...that in any case was easily corrected via the PJ,s Menu, )

RS-MaxxMudd was/is a collaborative effort, but credit for finding better substitutes for common ingrediants goes to PB-Maxx alone. Me? I put it into practice as only I can. Everywhere and at once. Seemed the thing to do at the time.

No real Alchemy involved, just common sense reasoning combined with an uncanny sense of what might/could/should work toward improvng that which is already good.

Lighter is better. Thinner is better. Suspension is better.

So being, all of DIY has become better.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 09-18-2006, 08:07 AM
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just a couple of small things...

if you've read through the entire evolution of rs-maxxmudd... you'll see that it has evolved to the tastes and recommendations of it's users. and it should continue doing so.

originally intended to a be a contrast enhancing screen that held up it's viewability and contrast fairly decently in low to moderate ambient light. a screen that had excellent black levels and could still maintain and/or surpass the white levels of the standards boc of upw on a wall. and in that respect it continues to keep up it's end of the bargain for a $50 diy, off the shelf price.

over it's evolution... folks wanted increased gain and better white levels but they did not want to lose the black levels, viewing cone, nor the increased contrast and ambient qualities. in that respect upw has gone from being the PRIMARY ingredient to now being a minor ingredient.

while it had much less blue push than other grey diy screens such as SS... removing as much of that push without sacricing the original goals became a key. white pearl went from being a minor ingredient to being a major one... and 1/3 of the silver metallic has been removed. fortunately, the changes have not affected black levels to a greater degree. but make not mistake, the continued replacement of silver metallic with pearl metallic most certainly decrease the ambient nature of this screen. my opinion is the black levels should be maintained because many are looking to rsm as the last step before heading to the land of black screens or r/g/b.

along the way other refinements... such as increased flesh tones were worked on... hence the pale metallic gold...

throughout the entire process... EASE was the primary mantra... the ability to easily find and purchase the ingredients. the ease of making the mix by having no more than a handful of ingredients. and the ease of application... because 90% folks wanted to be able to roll the mix.

along with ease, cutting cost became a goal. therefore...while exotic powders, silvers, and the like could have been substituted... they were not. in listening to folks, one of my goals was for RSM to be able to get all the ingredients at ONE home department store and to get the price down in the $40-50 range. a one can solution? no, but certainly a one store solution... though i've given up on the one store solution... the cost goals were reached.

should RSM evolve into a lighter, whiter screen, with less black levels, greater gain, and decreased viewing cones for a more dedicated/less ambient screen?

...that evolution remains to be seen... simply because unless it's a side by side with a white high gain screen the only small deficiencies it has with respect to the brightest whites and flesh tones would not be seen.

i don't so much drive the changes as i allow the feedback from the folks who are using the screens request the changes.
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Old 09-20-2006, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks MississippiMan and pb_maxxx for the comments and insights. It's always more informative to here things from the source. Understanding the goals and evolution is just as important as the nitty gritty details.

Your input is greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-12-2006, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought this thread needed a bump.

It's a good mix and deserves consideration by anyone thinking of painting a screen.
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:27 AM
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Another bump...

Could be my monitor (or my eyes ), but I thought the Gray-Poly-Pearl (1:1:1) looked just as good, overall, as the RS-MaxxMudd (on whiteboard)...

-T
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Old 10-27-2006, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post

Another bump...

Could be my monitor (or my eyes ), but I thought the Gray-Poly-Pearl (1:1:1) looked just as good, overall, as the RS-MaxxMudd (on whiteboard)...

-T

If you look at the bright scenes you will see that the RS-MaxxMudd outperforms the Gray+Poly+Pearl. I should also point out that the Pearl used was Behr White Opal Pearl. The WOP does not contain a very high concentration of mica flakes. For the most part it is simply making the overall shade of gray lighter.

Both panels perform well with regard to black levels but since the RS-MaxxMudd has brighter whiter whites the overall contrast is improved.

It may well be that your monitor needs some adjustment as well.

One advantage to the Gray+Poly+WOP is that it is much easier to roll. Due to the low metallic content it does not require down rolling.

Like many things in life there are diminishing returns. You may reap a 5% increase in picture quality for a %50 increase in skill required when going from a Gray+Poly+Pearl to RS-MaxxMudd. The jump from a flat gray latex to the Gray+Poly+Pearl requires a %5 increase in difficulty for a %50 increase in picture quality. The biggest variable in all this is you. In the end you have to decide what you are willing to do to get a result you will be happy with. Be warned though that once you start messing around with this stuff it may never end, Eh!
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:03 PM
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Nonsense. We all die eventually.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

If you look at the bright scenes you will see that the RS-MaxxMudd outperforms the Gray+Poly+Pearl. I should also point out that the Pearl used was Behr White Opal Pearl. The WOP does not contain a very high concentration of mica flakes. For the most part it is simply making the overall shade of gray lighter.

Both panels perform well with regard to black levels but since the RS-MaxxMudd has brighter whiter whites the overall contrast is improved.

It may well be that your monitor needs some adjustment as well.

One advantage to the Gray+Poly+WOP is that it is much easier to roll. Due to the low metallic content it does not require down rolling.

Like many things in life there are diminishing returns. You may reap a 5% increase in picture quality for a %50 increase in skill required when going from a Gray+Poly+Pearl to RS-MaxxMudd. The jump from a flat gray latex to the Gray+Poly+Pearl requires a %5 increase in difficulty for a %50 increase in picture quality. The biggest variable in all this is you. In the end you have to decide what you are willing to do to get a result you will be happy with. Be warned though that once you start messing around with this stuff it may never end, Eh!

After studying a lot of the screen shots and doing a lot of cross comparison shots and reading the type of conclusion T-Bone came to and then your reply.

I think your last statement is one everyone needs to read again. It holds a whole lot of truth to it and it's something everyone needs to realize. The returns all this work offers and IMO even the best manufactured screen has to offer are in the 5% range over what can be done sometimes with immensely simpler methods.

I would then like to add to Tiddlers above statement with this. The amount (percentage) of improvement you can expect with any screen solution is going to depend on your starting point. And by starting point I'm referring to what projector you are shooting to what size screen and the ambient light condition of your room.

If you are starting at an under-driven point then the gains to be had with a higher tech paint solution are going to be of a higher percentage.

The bottom line to all the paints using metallic additives are, one a slight improvement in overall efficiency when it come to reflecting vs absorbing light, and two the main change is in directional gain. Directional gain reflects more back at the viewer and sacrifices some of the viewing cone. In the case of flat paints that have a nearly 180 degree equally bright viewing cone. Why not use some of it up to get a improved brightness, and with improved brightness why not go darker then if you can and get a increased perceived contrast improvement.

In my case starting in light control with excess of lumens for my screen size I was able to get the benefits of a dark screen in perceived contrast while loosing enough foot lamberts to leave me with a image on the high end of the brightness scale. Along with the easiest of screens to paint.

I'm in the process of making a test sample screen in the (Mega-lumen) range. Stay tuned I'll post something in the next week hopefully. ........


Bud

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Old 10-27-2006, 06:10 PM
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Hey guys!

It really amazes me the effort that this community goes to to create a "better" product. I like tinkering, but I am humbled by the sheer volume of time dedicated to these DYI projects. At the end of the day that's how most discoveries happen, thru trial and error, leading to a breakthrough or sometime nothing at all.

These efforts should be acknowledged regardless of the results and respect should be paid. You certainly have earned mine as I have found amazing the work of MM, pb_maxxx, tiddler and others!!! The fact that you leave it in the public domain open to criticism of disbelievers and naysayers, WOW!!!

In any case, I guess at the end of the day most folks want to know how it "compares" to commercial and "lazy" solutions ie. I fork over $XXX or invest time and effort and get DYI.

The problem is that rarely those two groups meet up and have a coherent discussion.
Methodology is often suspect as well ie. projector shootouts where one is brighter and the other is dimmer and the observers are switching back and forth.

Same seems to go for screens ie. how do you evaluate? do you get screen samples side by side, (adaptive quality of our eyes towards perceived contrast, black level, can render these useless) or do you view an entire movie on each and then draw conclusions.

Then there is the issue of what is "better" aside from the fact that most people associate $$$ paid with quality and are generally sceptical of basement solutions vs. R&D of the big commercial company.

Here an OBJECTIVE evaluation of Stewart Greyhawk or Firehawk vs. DYI screens based on some agreed methodology would be invaluable!
Same for more budget solutions such as HP or GWII vs DYI screens.
But then who is going to do it??? Time, money, distance and an open mind are all stumbling blocks.

Still, Linux, Mozilla, and other open concept solutions have shown to be fully competitive vs. commercial equivalents and people have voted with their "feet" so I guess same might happen here someday, once the word of mouth makes believers out of people and some of these comparative evaluations do take place.

In the meantime thanks for your efforts once again!
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