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post #121 of 143 Old 10-27-2006, 07:43 PM
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Every time I post my opinion, it seems to bring on a ton of rebuttals and even controversy. I honestly feel I'm not ripping on any specific method. I think there are positive aspects to all the DIY methods and each of them fit a need. Not everyone has the same wants and needs though, and sometimes I think we forget that. I have the utmost respect for everyone that has spent their time and money to benefit everyone in here. There is also a wealth of experience on these threads, if you add up all the accumulated years of experience of all the people on here that would be a staggering number.

I remember taking color cards and scanning them, then pulling them into Photoshop to look at. I thought I had found some very neutral colors. Prof explained to me that scanners, printers and monitors are not very accurate ways to analyze colors. It has to do with the equipment... the light spectrum of the scanner, the way monitors display colors vs. actual physical material. Basically he told me that what we use as consumers is purely for a pleasing visual representation of a color and is only a close proximity.

In a way I think that applies to most paints, even craft store paints. They are a representation of the color, but one that is pleasing to most people... a mix and blend but not necessarily a pure color. I think you can get close with those paints and colors, but for the depth and scope of what is trying to be done here ultimately we may need to find industrial/commercial grade pigments and additives i.e. items that have a higher QA process and actual tolerances to ensure each batch is uniform and the same specs as a previous batch.

I could be totally wrong here and completely off the mark.

If we think of the ultimate screen, one that does everything... gain, contrast, accurate color reproduction, ambient light absorption, controlled lighting performance, black blacks, white whites, reduced SDE... all that and more as 100% then all real world screens will be less than 100%. I think we all agree that mythical 100% screen is the theoretical goal, but we also understand it's not a reality either, not yet at least

Hitting the 80% mark for a DIY screen is easy, hell most walls that are even close to some kind of white meet or exceed that. Bed sheets and things of that nature come to mind at this level.

The next milestone is the 90% mark. Some off the shelf paints such as UPW, Misty Evening, Wispy Gray, Universal Gray (and now some of the other neutral looking grays listed in other threads)... all easily meet or exceed the 90% performance mark. Also in this range I would put Parkland(until some concrete data and tests are done on this material at least, after that is done it may fall in the 95% category), BOC, and most fabrics that have been used. These are all perfectly acceptable DIY methods and for most people will provide a pleasing screen for them. Some of these materials may even be pushing the next milestone, but without actual data that can only be stated as personal observation and speculation at this point. These observations may be dead on accurate, but when trying to convince someone on the other coast, or even in a different country that one particular DIY method is better than another, data is the only sure fire way a person can be positive about a decision. If a direct side by side comparison can be made in person, that would be acceptable, but most people can't see a side by side comparison in personhence the need for data and specs. Everything we buy as consumers is done based on specs, so DIY needs specs for people to be able to make informed decisions. Sometimes it does come down to a visual, and if something 'visually' looks better, damn the specs... but data and specifications are the starting point that everyone uses as a foundation.

Next up is the 95% milestone. This is somewhat harder to achieve, but still relatively easy. The main difference between this level and the 90% level is the cost factor. Quality went up, and so did price, but in the big scheme of things price is still very low compared to commercial screens. The other big thing that has changed from the 90% to 95% performance level is research and testing. More care has been done in selecting and testing materials in this range. Things like the laminates, Do-able, SMX, the more complex painting methods (more than just a single paint... a base coat and top layer) fit here.

Now for the fun... 95%-98%. This is where I feel most commercial screens reside, as well as the more complex paint mixes being used. LOTS of testing, research, and data are needed for this level. Sometimes I think a particular application may actually make this level of performance, but as to the reason why and how it works, that could be unknown. Sure everything was based on sound principles and ground work, but from a scientific and theory explanation it may not be totally understood. I'm not saying it was a pure guess; sure the person had an understanding of what works, what doesn't... and intuitively built on that experience to hit a higher standard. Before anyone gets in a snit over that comment, it wasn't a slam at anyone here, or for any past endeavors. Things like that happen all the time outside DIY screens, and it happens here too is all I am saying.

There have been house paints that were used for mixes and when combined with other paints and additives it changed from being ordinary wall paint. As good as a mix like this can be, I really doubt it will be able to hit the 98-99% mark. Even commercial screens have a tough time getting to this level of performance. I guess what I am saying is to get to the next step, especially one this high, it's doubtful off the shelf products are going to be the answer. (Personally I think this next step will be a hybrid method utilizing several methods)

Also, this performance range is probably only an interest of a proportional amount of DIYers. In other words most DIYers are looking for the 90% performance range. I will go as far as suggesting 90% fit into this category. They want cheap, easy and decent performance. 5% fit in the 95% range, 3% strive for the upper echelon level of 95-98%. That leaves 1 to 2% that would even attempt something at the 98% and above level. If it can be figured out how to make it easy (and some of the DIY mixes that went on to become commercial have, and joined the ranks of some of the other commercial screen paints) well this changes the playing field for not only DIY but anyone that uses a screen. We all need to keep that in mind for the end result make it so other people can duplicate your efforts.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #122 of 143 Old 10-28-2006, 04:01 AM
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Well said wbassett.
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post #123 of 143 Old 01-16-2007, 03:25 PM
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Took me 10 seconds to find your thread. You just have to go to your "profile" and search for "All Threads Started by tiddler".

BTW, those RGB measurements ARE pretty good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Sorry for the new thread but I can't find the original RS-MaxxMudd Experiments thread.

I recently had my RS-MaxxMudd/white and RS-MaxxMudd/black samples tested and have results for the RGB balance.

212 204 210 RS-MaxxMudd/White
210 203 211 RS-MaxxMudd/black

Very good results!

The next step is to measure the gain and viewing cone.


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"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #124 of 143 Old 01-16-2007, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently had my RS-MaxxMudd/white and RS-MaxxMudd/black samples tested and have results for the RGB balance.

xxx xxx xxx RS-MaxxMudd/White
xxx xxx xxx RS-MaxxMudd/black

Very good results!

The next step is to measure the gain and viewing cone
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post #125 of 143 Old 01-17-2007, 08:48 AM
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Tiddler

When you say Rsmaxxmudd white and black are you referring to the substrate you painted the mix over?

For all practical purposes IMO a one point RGB shift is within the margin of error of the testing. Is that correct? And do you know the margin of error of the test?

The numbers do look very good and it's great to now have a benchmark. Now with the addition of gain figures along with the comparison photos you did on and off axis it shouldn't be to hard to demonstrate this screens properties compared to many commercial screens.

Good input.


Bud

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post #126 of 143 Old 01-17-2007, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Listen folks, this aint no hox!

I don't do the testn, cuz that aint what I'm best in!

MaxxMudd over black? MaxxMudd over White?
Don't ya remeber the hate, I got over the substrate?
You just struck terror, don't know the margin of error!

RGB numbers are lookin good, pb_maxxx is the man in this hood!
Mix up DIY screen paint he can, just ask MississippiMan!

Gain figures, viewing cone, we just can't leave it alone!

Don't ask about color, don't ask about space, ...
I'm just a painter hangin in this place.

Ok I'm actually a programmer, lost control of his grammer!

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post #127 of 143 Old 01-27-2007, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I received the gain vs viewing angle measurements from prof55. This is the R-MaxxMudd over white base coat sample.

_0° _10° _20° _30° _40° _50° Viewing Angle
0.84 0.68 0.56 0.50 0.44 0.36 Grayhawk
1.08 0.88 0.70 0.60 0.54 0.43 RS-Maxxmudd White (15)



Again the results are very good for the gain and viewing angle.
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post #128 of 143 Old 01-27-2007, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I said it before and I will say it again! Pb_maxxx is a master at balancing screen paint ingredients to get just the right combination of color and specularity to produce a very very good DIY Screen Paint Solution.

IMHO, the mix itself is the thing that makes this screen solution work. The measured difference between the black and white base support this argument. Yes the base has some effect but it is quite small. Take another bow pb I'm pretty sure it's all in the mix.

RS-MaxxMudd does require some care and aquired skill to apply. The results are worth the effort for some people. There is a lot of application information available now as well.
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post #129 of 143 Old 01-28-2007, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I said it before and I will say it again! Pb_maxxx is a master at balancing screen paint ingredients to get just the right combination of color and specularity to produce a very very good DIY Screen Paint Solution.

Remember to note that the basis for RS_MaxxMudd began as a variation on the MMud-SE (Silver Edition) application, and it was the change up of deleting the Behr Deep Base, and adding the MinWax that made RS_MaxxMudd what it is today. Both were in fact suggestions made by PB_Maxx. The change to a lighter Silver metallic was the final step that gives us what were see today as a great DIY paint. It was however a collaboration between PB_ and I, with me doing all the "Real World" testing in the beginning. Not trying to horn in on PB_'s glory here.....I'm beyond that. No, just trying to make note that it was the attempt to make something already outstanding even better that drove PB_'s brain tissue into overdrive.


Tiddler,

Thanks for the excellently done job of presenting this study.

I'm finding quite interesting how precise a curve the RS_MaxxMudd's gain performance follows against the Grayhawk's. It seems to be almost exactly 10% points higher across the scale between 20 & 40 degrees off axis, going down to 7% points higher at 50 degrees, but most importantly, at the other end of the scale, gain zooms out to over 20 % points from straight on.

That's enough of a difference to delegate the GrayHawk to 'also ran' status IMO, and easily confirms prior statements alluding to such, made by the Cajun Cajoler himself.
1 down, ......can the SilverHawk be next in line?

I assume that this test was made using the RS_MaxxMudd on a simple white substrate. Suppose what might have happened had it been a RS_MM Light Fusion application? For a "one up" against the Silverhawk, it would be best to show the figures for both a LF and non-LF application.

Thanks again tiddler. The footsteps coming from behind me are receding away into inaudibility.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #130 of 143 Old 01-28-2007, 09:00 AM
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Tiddler: Since there are several variations of RS-Maxx, could you post the specific one used in these tests?

Thanks,
Garry
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post #131 of 143 Old 01-28-2007, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the mix that I used to prepare the samples that were tested:


RS-MaxxMudd Formula as per pb_maxxx:
RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
8 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
8 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
4 oz. UPW, Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Latex
2 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
7 oz. Minwax Clear Satin Polycrylic
5 oz. distilled

The RS-MaxxMudd mix has been updated:

Last Update - Oct 30th, 2006

RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
14 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
7 oz. UPW
3 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10 oz. distilled/tap water


RS-MaxxMudd LL (for lower lumen PJ's, and for completely controlled lighting)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
10 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
10 oz. UPW
2 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10oz. distilled/tap water

I would also like to acknowledge MississippiMan's contributions in presenting the predecessors of the RS-MaxxMudd to this forum. Those early contributions ultimately lead to the collaboration between MM and pb to refine the Mudd mixes into RS-MaxxMudd and it derivatives.

MississippiMan has also been instrumental in developing application techniques that most can master with some practice. A mix is only as good as the surface you can produce when applying it so application is a critical factor in the more complex metallic paint mix screen solutions.
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post #132 of 143 Old 02-09-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
RS-MaxxMudd LL (for lower lumen PJ's, and for completely controlled lighting)

Tiddler - can this be used on a drywall surface? I'm a first timer to this. Any thoughts? Should I just use a basic config with the primer + behr matte.

My environment is totally controlled, with essentially no ambient light.

Any suggestions?
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post #133 of 143 Old 02-12-2007, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I received the gain vs viewing angle measurements from prof55. This is the R-MaxxMudd over white base coat sample.

_0° _10° _20° _30° _40° _50° Viewing Angle
0.84 0.68 0.56 0.50 0.44 0.36 Grayhawk
1.08 0.88 0.70 0.60 0.54 0.43 RS-Maxxmudd White (15)



Again the results are very good for the gain and viewing angle.


is the gain the same on the prefab Sintra material for Maxxmudd ?
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post #134 of 143 Old 02-12-2007, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neekos View Post

is the gain the same on the prefab Sintra material for Maxxmudd ?

I don't know, but I'm reasonably sure that if pb_maxxx or MississippiMan were to send samples to prof55 he would test them. Prof55 has tested and provided measurements for other commercial screen materials so I think he would be willing to do the same for XFS screen materials or at least the DIY versions prepared and submitted by pb or MM.
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post #135 of 143 Old 02-12-2007, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I don't know, but I'm reasonably sure that if pb_maxxx or MississippiMan were to send samples to prof55 he would test them. Prof55 has tested and provided measurements for other commercial screen materials so I think he would be willing to do the same for XFS screen materials or at least the DIY versions prepared and submitted by pb or MM.


That sounds like a plan.

What about it Prof55 ?
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post #136 of 143 Old 02-12-2007, 07:34 AM
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I have posted similar thought as Todd did as to the great job this mixture does.

In all fairness to the GrayHawk screen though before we say its been crushed by this mix we should compare at least the RGB numbers of the two surfaces. I don't know if that has been done. I read once the GrayHawk measured 194 188 196 I don't know if those numbers are correct and I don't know what the RGB is of this mix. The two graphs look almost the same just shifted. The shape of the curves tell me more the two are performing the same way. The amplitude of one above the other is more indicative of one being overall a brighter screen. If its doing that and its RGB level of gray is the same or darker then its even truly greater than we are saying.

This type of graph is a great tool it shows graphically what Todds side by side pictures showed visually. Would love to see a few more samples applied to the same chart.


Bud

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post #137 of 143 Old 02-12-2007, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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The RS-MaxxMudd is much lighter and therefore the overall gain is going to be higher. As Bud suggests the grapg is just give an idea of how the viewing angle characteristics of the RS-MaxxMudd compares to a well know commercial screen.
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post #138 of 143 Old 03-28-2008, 01:51 AM
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Okay, this is my first post to this site, so here goes...

I bought a great toshiba projector (2500 lumens) and I'm looking to paint the screen on my livingroom wall. Here is the formula I have:

RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
8 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
8 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
4 oz. UPW, Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Latex
2 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
7 oz. Minwax Clear Satin Polycrylic
5 oz. distilled

this looks great, but I don't know what gets mixed with what, or if it all gets mixed together. IF this is all one mix, do I apply it directly to my white walls (not too interested in buying screen material), and how many coats?

I really appreciate any help on this. I've spent HOURS reading through different feeds but have only found references to the actual paint mixing/applying steps, but not the actual steps themselves. Thanks again!

newbie
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post #139 of 143 Old 03-28-2008, 06:06 AM
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Hello Hobby Horse,

......let's "Rock".

Welcome to AVS's DIY Screen Forum. This mix you have chosen is a great selection. It's a Bright Screen with very respectable Ambient Light performance. And you have a real Torch of a PJ going for you (...what "Model"...?). Your location for the screen (Living Room) bespeaks having to deal with regular doses of "Moderate" Ambient Light.

When this mix was created, it was among the only real option available that gave good color reproduction and gain without affecting Contrast. In fact, it's Contrast enhancing qualities were pretty astounding considering just how light a "Silvery White" hue it was. You can chalk that up to the "Silver Metallic" amplifying the retention and use of the available darker elements of a picture, and the Pale Gold working to offset any push toward "Blue" such "Silver" can contribute.

The "Pearl" and UPW both contribute to the quality of the Whites. The Minwax was a substitution for previous use of Deep Base, which helped to brighten up the mix by letting it gain a bit more translucency so that the Bright White Kilz2 Base Coat (...don't forget to "Prime"!) could help out as well.

It's a Mix where it all goes in and mixes together, so that part takes no real effort. It's more getting the various elements together in front of you that's a little bit of effort. But just a little, mind you.

As far as such "Complex" Mixes go, it's still a pretty simple one. Since it's time in the "Spotlight", other mixes intended specifically for Ambient Light performance have come forward. Along these same lines, and from the same sources came the "real deal" Silver Fire, essentially the same take on the solution, but achieving more of it's "Contrast Enhancing" ability from the mixing of specific Colors to achieve the darkest possible Gray, while the "Brightening Elements" (Silver-Pearl) continued to keep 'white / color crush' to the minimum.

But it always was...and still is very much a case of dealing with all your other "Room" elements, as well as what type of performance your PJ brings to the table for you to reach a balance between light output, reflection, and image quality.

You have 2500 lumens at your disposal...and that's really a big factor in your favor. I suspect your PJ's CR specs are about 2000:1 On-Off (+/- 800:1 real-life). So you will need a darker hued mix than RS-MaxxxMudd if you want stellar Black Level performance in a living Room environment. Or really good blacks in te dark for that matter.

With you being a "Noob", and in this case the screen being a "Wall", going down the "Silver Fire" route might be a little too ambitious a sojourn to undertake on such a maiden voyage. And if your "Rollin" instead of "Sprayin' ", it might not even be advisable.

Recently, a newcomer, Black Widow has sprung out from the shadows. No "Creepy Crawly" to be stepped on, BW is a simpler mix to assemble that Silver Fire, and with a Light Cannon at one's disposal, it's going to do an excellent job providing deep blacks and bright colors and whites in a Living Room.

I've recently done some test shots of "Dark" and "Light" versions of BW using a Panny 100u (2000 lumens) and a Panny 1000u (1500 lumens) and compared then against the Silver Fire. The latter was a considerably darker hue of Gray, so SF did show deeper Blacks, but the BW mixes still more than held up their own against a much more CR Dedicated mix by granting some real Black Level improvement while maintaining somewhat brighter "Whites" than SF.

The whole purpose was to try to restore brighter whites without losing the benefits the darker elements in the BW brought forth. That objective showed it could be done, even when the number of the Mix's elements were pretty limited (Base-Aluminum-UPW)

As far as their both (the BWs) being Gray Mixes, that is quite the accomplishment. Now I'd like to see some more RS-MaxxxMudd success stories, but what with a perfectly good alternative that is easier to assemble, and that can be rolled (if necessary ) or sprayed (as advised ) I'd be remiss if I did not bring it to your attention.

In your case, sticking with the original Black Widow Formula (4:1 base to Aluminum) would be best. Making certain the wall is virtually texture free is very essential. If Rolling, you have to ace out the attempt with good technique...but that's eminently "do-able'. If you spray it (...and there are easy, affordable ways to do so...) you'll get the absolute best results as far as "Black to White" performance .

Lastly, your Screen size will play a part in the final choice of Mix/application method. Step back, take an accounting of all aspects of your situation, and then relate them here again for review. If your planning to do almost all your watching in greatly subdued lighting, you can stick to RS-MaxxxMud (...that will be a BRIGHT screen!) or go with Black Widow-EW (...probably the best choice with the Toshiba) If your planning to keep a few lamps on or watch content with drapes open or with considerable light leakage in the daylight hours, then Black Widow 4:1 would be the simplest, most effect choice.

If you want it all, and don't shirk from delving deeper into the world of trying to having your cake and eat it too, (...it's a complicated cake, but tastes scrumptious....) then Silver Fire will also satisfy.

At this conjecture, without any other input from your direction, I'd have to go with Black Widow 4:1 for a Noob recommendation. You have the "Horsepower" and BW has what you need, and it will perform better than RS-MaxxxMudd in your situation if any real degree of Ambient Light is going to be consistently present.

(...is that the Sun rising in the West? Did a Porker just flitter by the window?)

Just the facts....nuthin' but the facts. What serves one best is always the best choice. I hope this helps you to decide.

MMan

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"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #140 of 143 Old 04-22-2008, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I have been doing a lot of experimenting and preparing samples of various paint mixtures of late. The stack of sample cards is more than a 1" thick.

In order to protect the sample cards I have cut up some pieces of hardboard that just so happen to be the ones that I painted the Rs-MaxxMudd onto for these experiments.

There will be a sample of RSMM over a white base and a sample of RSMM over a flat black base included with each of the three bundles of sample cards. So we may have some spectrometer measurements and possibly spectral reflectance curves for these two variations of RS-MaxxMudd in the near future.

So far Harpmaker has offered to take a set of the samples to do spectro measurements on. I have asked Harpmaker to then pass them on to mech if he is interested in making measurements for himself.

That leaves two sets that I am looking to send off to anyone else interested in doing spectral measurements and possibly gain curve plots for.

Anyone else with a spectrometer interested?
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post #141 of 143 Old 04-22-2008, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been told that the formula for RS-MaxxMudd has been updated since the time when I did these experiments. That means the color data that will be reported for these samples will not really be valid.
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post #142 of 143 Old 04-22-2008, 05:32 PM
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Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
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...if the old formula could stand up...doesn't it stand to reason that the newer versions were improvements?

Whaaaaat?

Like we're gonna make it worsted?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #143 of 143 Old 06-26-2008, 09:40 PM
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can you repost the last updated mixture of RS-MaxxMudd. Also is it better to paint it on canvas or a drywall type material?
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