RS-MaxxMudd Experiments - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 143 Old 08-21-2006, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Reference: RS-MaxxMudd thread.


Objectives - Phase 1
The purpose of the first experiment is to see if I can paint a good sample and to determine if the base coat has any effect on the performance.

RS-MaxxMudd Formula as per pb_maxxx:
RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
8 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
8 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
4 oz. UPW, Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Latex
2 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
7 oz. Minwax Clear Satin Polycrylic
5 oz. distilled

NOTE: This is the formula I used to prepare the RS-MaxxMudd paint mix and all sample panels discussed in this thread.


RS-MaxxMudd updates:

Update - Oct 30th, 2006

RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
14 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
7 oz. UPW
3 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10 oz. distilled/tap water

RS-MaxxMudd LL (for lower lumen PJ's, and for completely controlled lighting)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
10 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
10 oz. UPW
2 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10oz. distilled/tap water


Update - Jan 27th, 2007

RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
12 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
7 oz. UPW flat
4 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10 oz. distilled/tap water

RS-MaxxMudd LL (for lower lumen PJ's, and for completely controlled lighting)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
10 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
10 oz. UPW flat
2 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10oz. distilled/tap water


Here is the mix in the pot:


Here is the Black Panel + 1 Coat:


Here is the Whiteboard + 1 Coat:


The first coat usually doesn't look too good but the whiteboard looks pretty good. The black always looks worse. I think I'm getting better at painting metallics with a roller!

The Morning After

I checked the samples this morning and observed that the finish much flatter than my previous attempts. I "think" I may have used the UPW Flat Enamel the first time around. I'm not sure if it would make that much difference. The surface looks smooth and the metallics are visible under bright light from a few inches.

The last time I tried to make up samples of RS-MaxxMudd I had applied each coat about an hour apart. I have since learned that this is not the right thing to do, so this time I will paint one coat each evening until 3 coats and then on the next night look at it under the projector light.

Day 2

Here is the Black Panel + 2 Coats:


Here is the Whiteboard + 2 Coats:



Day 3

Here is the Black Panel + 3 Coats:


Here is the Whiteboard + 3 Coats:


The black base panel is starting to look better. Tomorrow we will see under the projector light how it looks.

Click here to jump to the light test photos and screen shots.


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post #2 of 143 Old 08-21-2006, 08:08 PM
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Errr..........was there supposed to be pictures associated with the post?? You've been working too hard man. Take a break and enjoy the last couple of weeks left of the short summers we get here in Ontario!

Meow.
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post #3 of 143 Old 08-21-2006, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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This is a copy of pb_maxxx's formula and instructions lifted from the RS-MMMaxx questions thread.

Last Update - July 18th, 2006

RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
16 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
8 oz. UPW
4 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10 oz. distilled/tap water


RS-MaxxMudd LL (for lower lumen PJ's, and for completely controlled lighting)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
12 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
12 oz. UPW
2 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10oz. distilled/tap water

--------------------------------

LIGHT FUSION screen incorporates first or second surface acrylic mirror substrate.

LIGHT FUSION II - incorporates a white transluscent acrylic substrate #2447 with/without second surface mirror either passively or actively backlit.

--------------------------------

RECOMMENDED SCREEN SUBSTRATES

light fusion / light fusion II substrate.
- better white levels in combination with better black levels make these substates ideal for ambient light.

durotherm rigid pvc white panels, sintra/komatex rigid expanded foam pvc panels,
polywall sheets.

semi-gloss white melamie surfaces of doable/clones and melamie treated MDF boards are preferred over rolling a gloss white basecoat.

for most people, the easiest and most available DIY option is to use a semi-gloss or satin white basecoat.

spraying is the preferred application for both the basecoat and the topcoat.

for those rolling an upw gloss basecoat... a 1:.5:.5 mix of (upw/minwax polycrylic/water) is recommended for achieving a smoother basecoat. for best results use a 3/16" nap smooth synthetic roller.

-------------------------------

TIPS & TECHNIQUES...

- when doing a mirror application - incorporate the Light Bulb / Projector Bulb test.

- spraying is the preferred method over rolling.

- when spraying use a 1.4mm - 1.7mm spray tip.

- protect yourself (protect your lungs).

a word of warning to the wise... especially if you are planning on spraying ANY paint product or mix. wear the best mask you can afford... preferably the ones with dual filters and look like gas masks.

BRIEF SPRAYING INSTRUCTIONS...

this mix is very 'wet' and you'll want your spraying motion to be fairly rapid and also watch for runs.

the 1st coat is what i call the 'frost coating'. basically in a very rapid motion you'll lightly apply a 'frost' coat across the entire board. the purpose of this is to give the full coat that is to follow something to adhere to... and to prevent runs. let this frost coat dry for 15/20 minutes.

the 2nd coat is a full coat. after applying... step back... and see if there are any 'soft' spots. lightly 'feather spray' the soft spots. and then let dry for 45 minutes.

the 3rd coat is also a full coat. after applying... again, step back, and see if there are any soft spots... and 'feather spray' only those.

let dry for a least 1/2 a day before viewing.
it'll take a week or more to cure and show it's full potential.

DO NOT USE ADDITIONAL EXTENDERS

Extenders such as floetrol are not needed with this mix. the minwax water-based urethane is already a natural extendor and does not require any additional help.

WHEN ROLLING - use a 9 inch, 3/16" nap smooth synthetic roller

DO NOT DRY ROLL

the biggest thing is to not dry roll. dry rolling will leave/introduce roller mark tracks that will not go away. the mix should go on nice and smooth, use vertical up and down strokes, work fairly quickly from left to right overlaping each pass and getting good coverage, but do not work the paint for long. the mix needs to go on wet and glossy... which allows the wetness of the mix, gravity, and time to blend the components together and dry without roller marks.

when you are done with each coat... the screen surface should look like a wet light grey glass sheet... and it should take about 20 minutes before you see any signs of drying. otherwise you put the coat of mix on too dry.
when rolled properly, the screen will dry to a smooth flat/eggshell finish.

--------------------------------

do not sand the final coat of RS-MaxxMudd. as the mix dries the urethane slightly rises to the surface. sanding the final coat would only defeat some of the properties of the urethane in the mix.
Last edited by pb_maxxx : 07-24-06 at 04:46 PM.



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post #4 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 08:10 AM
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tiddler, you are one driven SOB ... but I appreciate the work you have been putting in here. You are going to save alot of people a lot of time.

GL


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post #5 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 10:26 AM
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I take back all the bad things I ever said about Canadians.

But three day to wait with just one picture a day, you really know how to keep us in suspense.

How would ever thought when they invented the internet we would be using it to watch paint dry.

Any on glass yet?


Bud

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post #6 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

I take back all the bad things I ever said about Canadians.

I read that and smiled.

Quote:


How would ever thought when they invented the internet we would be using it to watch paint dry.

That had me literally laughing out loud.

GL


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post #7 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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We Canadians pride ourselves on there not being anything worth saying about us let alone anything bad! Just trying to re-establish our reputation as good peace keepers!

The window has been cleaned and straps are attached to allow me to hang it like the sample panels. The mirror tiles were a bit bigger than I remembered so I ended up using three of them on a sample panel. I used a few beads of latex caulking to glue them to the hardboard. Hope that holds them ok. Not permanently but good enough for what we're doing.

So the mirror surface available on each panel is about 18"x48". On the one panel I will divide it into three blocks. One block will get 3-4 coats of RSMM and the second block will get 2 additional coats of RSMM. The third (top most) block will get 2-3 coats of flat gray latex + poly.

Lets see if I can estimate a mix of paint + poly that will be approximately as translucent as the RSMM:

RS-MaxxMudd proportions are:
Metallics = 18 oz
Poly = 7 oz
UPW = 4
(Water evaporates)

If we assume the metallics are half opaque and half transparent we can reduce this to:

Transparent = 7+9 = 16 oz
Opaque = 4+9 = 13 oz

So it's roughly (4:3) Poly to paint + about 1/6 water so the mix is

4 oz Poly + 3 oz Flat Gray + 1 oz water.

That should be more than enough to paint a 1'x1' part of the window and one mirror tile, each with three coats using trim rollers.

The other mirrors will get varying numbers of coats of the window frosting. The idea here is that if a piece of sand blasted glass would make a good double sided projection screen then a frosted or sandblasted mirror should work quite well as a Pure Light Fusion screen. We shall see. Nice thing about glass is you can scrape the paint off easily with a razor blade scraper. So we can try some different things until I run out of paint again.


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post #8 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 12:39 PM
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Nice update Tiddler

And from my house to Canada is just a short swim across Lake Erie so we are almost neighbors.

Just for an interesting factoid, last night I was doing a demo of my screen for a friend that built a screen from da-lite gray something or other, (I'll get the spec on it) but he kept telling me how no painted screen could compare to this high gain gray film. And he brought a sample 18x60 he had left. We compared it first on a white black checker board screen and it was about 2% brighter on axis and about 10% dimmer off axis. We then viewed it against a movie and the da-lite screen merged so close to mine if there wasn't the edge lines you couldn't really tell. It was a speck easier trying hot spot it seemed.

This guy came in loaded for bear and left saying how surprised he was that it was so close. He did comment on how I got my screen so flat. He said no matter how he stretched this film it always wanted to form a wrinkle later.

Then I told him this recipe of mine was one of the lowest tech of the DIY blends and that many contained metallic and mica and pearls along with mirrors and Light Fusion properties. He just said that's crazy and went home.


Bud

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post #9 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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It sounds like he had the High Contrast Matte White or the fixed screen version of it. It is a grey base with a pearl top coat. There also seems to be a very fine texture in the surface.

To my mind it is very similar to the gray + poly solution. I took a piece of this HCMW material to Home Depot and had them color match it to both Glidden and Behr. The results were interesting. Of course prof55 pointed out this was far from a truly meaningful evaluation of the screen but interesting anyway.

Here are the results:

WISPY GREY FORMULA

Wispy Gray 50GY 64/029 is rather close to neutral at 206/204/208, and about the same lightness as Silverscreen.

CIL == Glidden
CIL DULUX Int. Latex -Flat
WISPY GREY (50GY 62/029)
Pure White (2110)
Per GALLON
B 0 22 0 Lamp Black
C 0 08 0 Yellow Oxide
D 0 02 0 Thalo Green


Color Match of High Contrast Matte White screen material

BEHR
Premium Plus Int Flat Wall
** Custom Color Match **
Ultra Pure White (1050)
Per Gallon
D 0 8 0 Thalo Green
L 1 6 0 Raw Umber
V 0 5 1 Magenta

CIL == Glidden
CIL DULUX Int. Latex -Flat
** Custom Color Match **
Pure White (2110)
B 0 20 1 Lamp Black
C 0 05 1 Yellow Oxide
D 0 00 1 Thalo Green


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post #10 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 03:28 PM
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Your first shots illustrate the problem of applying a semi-translucent top coat over a contrasting base. The application would have to be absolutely perfect to make something like a 70% translucent coat of white over black workable. I'm curious to see how many rolled coats it takes you to get a uniform surface. By my thinking, the opacity of the top coat will have been pushed very close to 100% by then, and the base coat won't play much of a role. The white panel, however, looks ready to go as is.

So, you're also doing frosted mirrors? Cool, those can reach very high gains. However, with the thickness of 2nd surface mirrors, you're likely to see pretty bad haloing.

Looking forward to progress pics.
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post #11 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Objectives: To determine how translucent the RS-MaxxMudd is.

Window with hanging straps attached:


I will mask off the frame while painting. Then I will cover the frame with black hockey tape. It's not felt but not too shinny. The aluminum frame would be too shinny.


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post #12 of 143 Old 08-22-2006, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Objectives: To try different thicjness of RS-MaxxMudd applied to mirrors. Also to try applying Rustolium window frosting to mirrors to determine if there is any merit in it.

Mirror-1 For RS-MaxxMudd Application



Mirror-2 For Frosting Application


I will put some caulking in the S shaped cracks. Otherwise the paint will collect in there and probably cause runs.


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post #13 of 143 Old 08-23-2006, 05:10 AM
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Tiddler

I think you are right on the da-lite material I tested it's a silver gray look and you are right about the texture. It was intentionally manufactured into the screens top surface, and like you seeing that triggered my mind off into the texture debate again.

The color match you did seems like the glidden came back pretty close to the wispy gray and also my silver leaf as to the 22/48 LB so I can see why it tested so close side by side. Another interesting side note I have found about paint matching over the years is I have taken samples in and color matched and they came back with a mix that I know had totally different stuff in it than the original. But the resulting paint is exactly the same.
Thanks for posting the data and the pictures the World Wide Web is getting excited. Last time I remember being so excited was when Geraldo opened Al Capones vault on prime time TV.

CoveX
Your thoughts and mine are very close on just how hard is it to paint a semi translucent top coat and not have a variability issue. In the case of LF and to my way of thinking if say the opacity ran between 40% and 60% due to human error in rolling or spraying and the resulting light had to make it thru that difference not once but twice in the case of the mirror. It seems the surface would show some areas richer in brightness than others. That's the speculation and what's left to be seen.
That's the reason I thought of the paint over glass test using the same skills Tiddler now has in even painting we should be able to hold the painted glass in front of the projectors beam and see the light transmissibility of the paint in the form of a back projection. We wont have a way to measure it once again but by comparison we will be able to see its evenness and by comparing the amount reflecting back FP vs. coming thru RP by eye we might be able to guess at the percent. That was the original idea anyway.


Bud

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post #14 of 143 Old 08-23-2006, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I could not wait until tomorrow so here are some screen shots:

Left = RS-MaxxMudd / Whiteboard
Center = RS-MaxxMudd / Flat Black
Right = (1:1:1), Flat Gray + Poly + Pearl

The right panel was the closest eyeball color match of my demonstration samples. It is included here to represent "Just Gray Paint With Some Gain".

Ambient Light Conditions:



Room Light, On Axis



Room Light, Off Axis



Camera Flash, On Axis



Camera Flash, Centered on RS-MaxxMudd Panels



Close Up Camera Flash, Centered on RS-MaxxMudd Panels



Close Up Camera Flash, Centered on RS-MaxxMudd <> Gray



Camera Flash, Off Axis



Observations

Following the Advanced Roller Painting Instructions I was able to produce very acceptable uniform sample panels of RS-MaxxMudd over both a semi-gloss white and flat black substrate.

The finish is much less shinny than my previous attempts. I'm not sure exactly why. I am pretty sure the previous mixes were made with Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Enamel and this time I made sure it was Behr Ultra Pure White Flat Latex. This is the only difference I can account for but there is always the possibility I did not mix it properly the first time around.

The surface almost feels a bit abrasive. I think this is die to the metallic flakes. The flakes are very tiny and only visible when viewed a few inches from the surface under bright light.

The RS-MaxxMudd panels demonstrate very little tendency to hot spot. This is apparent in the side-by-side photo "Close Up Camera Flash, Centered on RS-MaxxMudd <> Gray". The light spot is much more defined on the Gray panel. However I would not consider hot spotting to be a problem with the (1:1:1) Flat Gray + Poly + Pearl sample. The RS-MaxxMudd is therefore more than acceptable at NOT hot spotting.

The second objective of this experiment was to determine what effect the, if any the base coat has on the surface characteristics and performance. From these flash photos it is apparent that the panel with the flat black base coat is a darker shade of gray. In the "Camera Flash, Centered on RS-MaxxMudd Panels" photo there is some very mild vertical banding visible on the black based panel (lower right side). This may fade to the point of not being visible in a few days as the paint cures. If I put on a 4th coat to cover this then the paint would probably be so opaque that the black would no longer effect the surface color. My experience with painting walls is that the paint will become more opaques with curing. It will be interesting to compare and retest these panels in a week or so.


Conclusions

Overall this phase of the RS-MaxxMudd experiments was successful in demonstrating the effectiveness of the "Advanced Roller Painting Instructions" provided in the "Painted DIY Screen Beginner's Guide".

The base coat is observed to have an effect on the perceived surface color, prior to a full curing of the RS-MaxxMudd. The black base coat results in a darker shade of grey and may therefore produce slightly darker blacks.


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post #15 of 143 Old 08-23-2006, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Some Color Shots:

Ambient Light Conditions:



Color Bars, On Axis



Color Bars, Side Seat



Color Bars, Off Axis



Flowers, On Axis



Flowers, Off Axis



NOTE: These photos were taken within a few hours of the final coat of RS-MaxxMudd being applied. Therefore the RS-MaxxMudd is not fully cured while the Gray panel was painted over a week ago and has a chance to cure. ago. What difference a week of curing will make I don't know.


Observations

The "Color Bars, On Axis" screen shot demonstrates slightly brighter whites on the RS-MaxxMudd/White compared to the RS-MaxxMudd/Black. The Gray+Poly+Pearl (GPP) produces just slightly darker whites compared to the RS-MaxxMudd/Black. The black level performance is similar on the RS-MaxxMudd.Black and GPP while not quite as deep on the RS-MaxxMudd/White. This is to be expected because the RS-MaxxMudd/White panel is noticeably lighter gray than the others. All panels demonstrate more than acceptable black and white level performance given the on axis ambient light conditions.

The "Color Bars, Side Seat" photo demonstrates continued good white performance on the RS-MaxxMudd/White. The RS-MaxxMudd/Black appears to be closer in white performance to the GPP. However the RS-MaxxMudd/black still outperforms the GPP in white level brightness. The black level performance appears to be reduced on all panels. The RS-MaxxMudd/Black and GPP still have a slight edge over the RS-MaxxMudd/White.

The "Color Bars, Off Axis" shot demonstrates that all the panels have very similar white and black level performance. The black levels again seem reduced but this may be more due to the automatic setting of the camera. The image is still quite acceptable on all panels.

The "Flowers, On/Off Axis" screen shots look great on all three panels. The differences in performance are much less noticeable with this image projected across them. As observed with the Color Bars the blacks are slightly deeper on the RS-MaxxMudd/Black and GPP than they are on the RS-MaxxMudd/White.


Conclusions
The performance of the RS-MaxxMudd panels is observably better than the (1:1:1), Grey+Poly+Pearl demonstration panel. The GPP still demonstrates more than acceptable performance but the RS-MaxxMudd panels do edge past it with the RS-MaxxMudd/White seeming to have a slightly wider viewing cone than the Rs-MaxxMudd/Black and GPP. This may be due to the Light Fusion II effect theoretically at work with the RS-MaxxMudd paint over a first surface bright white substrate. The GPP is more forgiving of poor roller painting technique. For a beginner that may be worth the slight loss in performance. The GPP greatly out performs a straight flat gray mix hands down. As with most things there is a point of diminishing returns. The RS-MaxxMudd and it's requirement for good rolling techniques to apply do however demonstrate and observable improvement in performance that for some will be well worth the effort.


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post #16 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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After a good night's sleep and close examination of last night's panel photos I have included my observations and conclusions. I am very interested in the observations and conclusions of others.

It should be noted that my comparisons are restricted to rollable applications and also to mixes that can be applied to a vertical surface. I am well aware of some more sophisticated mixes such as CGIII but these either require a spray application or in the case of 313HC I believe it is best applied to a horizontal surface. If I'm wrong about that mission313 will let us know.

If I'm not mistaken benven is currently performing some experiments with the RGB paint theory behind Black Flame and mirror applications of CGIII. I look forward to his findings. I'm also watching wbassett and Clarence's work with laminate materials with great interest. Check out these laminate screen shots, and wbassett is looking into the various shades of gray. This work is showing some real results and promise. Imagine a screen a durable as your kitchen counter top! Why paint if you don't have to!

If it's not raining then tonight I start painting mirrors and windows. I sure would like to get my hands on a piece of this Chrome Laminate to put some RS-MaxxMudd over.


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post #17 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 08:24 AM
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Tiddler

I viewed the tests early this morning and while I was cogitating my response I see you posted in with your observations. and once again excellent work on your part.

My first comment / observation is in agreement with yours and that is until the paint has a couple days to cure our responses may be premature in some regards. So I'm going to phrase my comments more in the way (what if) rather than what I see.

Things like hot spotting and gain will be variables until the paint cure is complete that is a known fact. Things like transparency of paint until cured is still a unknown at least in my mind.

All that follows are my thoughts and ideas and are in no way cast in stone at this point. When doing comparison testing without firm numbers connected to samples what we do is speculate and that is a valid method as far as I'm concerned but when we speculate about outcome it's important to use the same methodology in our starting points. And also the significant value of our findings. I'm not sure if many will understand the last statement I just typed so I'll try and explain it. In math and science there is the term significant used a lot and what that means is the results of a problem or experiment are only as accurate as the least accurate contributing factor. Without keeping significant in mind it's easy to wrongly assume very slight differences as meaningful. In this case maybe it's the paint changing during cure or the thickness of coats etc.

I know you are doing a excellent job of trying to control all that you have at your disposal and I'm sure doing better than I could do and have done with the testing I have done. For those out there reading this Tiddler is applying science to this in the truest form he's doing the tests without preconceived ideas of the outcome and letting the chips fall as they may.

So here are my thoughts in general.
We all agree now that testing apples to apples is important and one such apple is the shade of gray we start with. Because this shade is going to try and portray black as black at some point and when it tries to do this job it will be the area on the screen not getting much or no light. so no matter what process we use to make that gray its how it looks to eye or cam under very low light is what should be compared. That would be his first photo of the 3 samples under low room light. and the closer they look the more significant the outcome will be when we compare a screen shot with black in it.
The shots of the blank screens (on axis) under the cams flash point out what retro light will look like and give us clues to hot spotting but we have to keep in mind in these shots the light source and the eye are only a inch apart unlike a projector mounted high cam lower. Off axis flash shots I'm not sure tell us much as the screen closest is seing more intensity of light.
Then there are the screen shots of the image (test bars or flowers) taken one sample at a time don't tell us nothing much but when taken in groups tell a lot. It's not important to say look at two screen shots and compare color from one to another say on axis and off axis but rather look within one screen shot and compare samples. The reason being the cam being automatic and the placement not being perfect will adjust differently each shot. But when a set like posted above show the right sample darker on axis and then about the same off axis that indicates gain. We also have to go back to that first low light level gray shot and see if maybe the whole panel is starting off slightly darker. In this case even though the mixes were made with an attempt to have all grays equal at the start the far right one looks a bit darker from the start. So that has to be factored into the thought process. Curing of the paints might make them closer I don't really know at this point. When you compare the closeness of samples within a single picture and then only compare the findings between picture to picture you get a good feel for what is being learned.

So far Tiddlers latest test shows the black base vs white does darken blacks just a smidgen. It also shows the gray has a wider viewing cone and we can assume that because of a lower gain as shown above. The amount it darkened the black seems to my eye to be slight that combined with tiddlers statement that one more coat might have totally blocked the effect. That slight improvement in black could also be viewed as only a slight effect from the LF off the white. But this is just speculation at this point as the paint dries and knowing the black level change is so slight it could be a factor of significant values someplace else in the experiment.

All this does give me some ideas for Tiddlers spare time though that is if it don't rain. As he puts paint on the window glass wouldn't it be interesting to take a look as each layer of paint was added instead of waiting till the end. Hmmmmmm

Keep up the good work. The world awaits your next findings


Bud

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post #18 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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What would you like me to do after each coat of paint is applied to the window?

Actually I guess it should be just prior to applying each subsequent coat. That way the paint will at least have dried for ~24 hrs.

I will also be painting the mirror panel at the same time. Any suggestions.

There is a good reason why the rain determines when I can paint. My wife is a nurse. As happens to many nurses she has developed severe allergy to latex. After the first few experiments her reaction was too severe for me to paint in the house and let the panels dry in the house. After a few days of not painting she wanted to know why I was painting all these panels. I explained it was to provide photos for a beginner's guide. I also explained why it was needed. She then suggested I paint the panels outside. I made the hanging rigs for the fence and I tried painting outside with poor results due to the heat, bugs and humidity. Then she said paint them in the basement and hang them outside to dry. That way there is a minimum of fumes in the house. So I can't paint if it rains because the panels must be hung outside to dry. It kinda sounds like a sob story but the point is that I am so impressed that she sees the value in what I'm doing and is willing to endure some discomfort to allow me to do this. She's a pretty special lady!


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post #19 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 09:45 AM
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Tiddler,

I may have mentioned this in another post, but I would still like to see the plain old UPW test panel in the screen shots against all of these experimental test panels.

The plain old UPW would be a good baseline/benchmark for all screen shots as it is probably the closest to a manufactured matte white screen.

I know I am speaking for myself, but I would bet people would like to see how these test panels compare to a basic Matte White screen that they would buy online or through a distributor and UPW would be the next closeset thing.

Thanks for the good work Tiddler,
Rob

ÂThe sheriff and his buddies with their samurai swords.....Â
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post #20 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 10:17 AM
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My wife thinks I'm crazy at times I spend an equal amount of time researching snowplow designs and manufacturing methods of snowplows. Another strange hobby of mine. You have a gem there and we would much rather see a few days pass than a latex reaction.

Well based on the thrust of the glass and mirror project what if we projected to it just prior to more paint. Kind of a time laps of the successive coats and how they build to the best point for LF. We could then even go past the best point and be able to hopefully see the LF magic drop off.

As for high sides request for UPW I also think that would be good and tie in with my above post. By throwing a UPW into the mix it would show a stark example of the extreme. Based on how much projecting to the extreme looked different than some closely matched test samples might point out something we could call the total range because in a perfect world I still contend something like UPW would be a perfect screen paint.


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post #21 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I mentioned this before but due to a shortage of UPW my flat white panel is actually (1:1) UPW + White Primer. Having said that there is no problem for me to post some comparisons between the RS-MaxxMudd and the Flat White. As a matter of fact the RS-MaxxMudd/White panel looks like a dirty white surface. I will also roll down the ElunVision 1.4 Gain White screen behind the panels.

My first concern was all the comments regarding RS-MaxxMudd being just another gray paint with some gain. Your suggestion is quite valid. I will also do some dark room shots as well as ambient light shots.

I also had a request to put up some screen shots of a dark scene, a light scene, and one with flesh tones. So that is on the list too.

By the way the Exploration of Paints section of the Beginner's Guide was done hastily to demonstrate some major differences between white, gary and various mixes. I also need to go back and identify better the shots with the white panel in them. In the What Have we gained? the last 4 flower shots are the flat white vs the (1:1:1:1), Flat Gray + Poly + Delta Pearl + Delta Silver Metallic. I think I found these shot the most interesting and the results were unexpected. I would have never guessed that the white level observed in the GPPSM would compare so well to the flat white panel.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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post #22 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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pb_maxxx requested some dark, bright, and flesh shots:

Left Panel = RS-MaxxMudd/Black
Center Panel = RS-MaxxMudd/White
Right Panel = (1:1:1), Flat Gray + Poly + Pearl

Room Light



Camera Flash



Projector White Light



Color Bars, On Axis



Color Bars, Side Seat



Color Bars, Off Axis



Observations:


Conclusions:


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post #23 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Darke Scene 1, On Axis



Dark Scene 1, Side Seat



Dark Scene 1, Off Axis



Dark Scene 2, On Axis



Dark Scene 2, Side Seat



Dark Scene 2, Off Axis



Observations:


Conclusions:


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post #24 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Face, On Axis



Face, Side Seat



Face, Off Axis



Observations:


Conclusions:


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post #25 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Bright Scene 1, On Axis



Bright Scene 1, Side Seat



Bright Scene 1, Off Axis



Bright Scene 2, On Axis



Bright Scene 2, Side Seat



Bright Scene 2, Off Axis



Bright Scene 3, On Axis



Bright Scene 3, Side Seat



Bright Scene 3, Off Axis



Observations:


Conclusions:


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post #26 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Highside requested some shots that included my flat white demonstration panel. Again I will caution you that I was running low on UPW when I painted this panel so the last coat was (1:1) UPW + white primer.

Left Panel = Flat White
Center Panel = RS-MaxxMudd/White
Right Panel = (3:1), Flat Gray + Poly

I decided to use the (3:1), Flat Gray + Poly as the "Just gray paint with some gain" sample here. I just did not think it was fair to put a flat gray panel next to an RS-MaxxMudd/White sample. This panel also represents the minimal paint mix, very easy to mix, and apply.

Room Light



Camera Flash
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l8...s/IMG_2425.jpg


Camera Flash, RSMM/Wht <> Gray+Poly



Camera Flash, Closeup, Gray+Poly



Camera Flash, Closeup, RSMM/Wht



Camera Flash, Closeup, Flat White



Projector White Light, On Axis



Projector White Light, Side Seat


Projector White Light, Off Axis



Observations:


Conclusions:


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post #27 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Color Bars, On Axis


Color Bars, Side Seat


Color Bars, Off Axis



Dark Scene 1, On Axis, Darkened Room, HD72 Cinema Mode


Dark Scene 1, Side Seat, Darkened Room, HD72 Cinema Mode


Dark Scene 1, Off Axis, Darkened Room, HD72 Cinema Mode


Dark Scene 2, On Axis, Darkened Room, HD72 Cinema Mode


Dark Scene 2, On Axis


Dark Scene 1, Side Seat


Dark Scene 1, Off Axis



Observations:


Conclusions:


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post #28 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Face, RSMM/Wht<>GrayPoly, On Axis


Face, RSMM/Wht<>GrayPoly, Side Seat


Face, RSMM/Wht<>GrayPoly, Off Axis


Face, FlatWht<>RSMM/Wht, On Axis


Face, FlatWht<>RSMM/Wht, Side Seat


Face, FlatWht<>RSMM/Wht, Off Axis


Bright Scene 1, On Axis


Bright Scene 1, Side Seat


Bright Scene 1, Off Axis



Observations:


Conclusions:


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post #29 of 143 Old 08-24-2006, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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These photos were taken a few hours after applying one coat of RS-MaxxMudd to the mirror tiles. Rather puzzling!

Left Panel = RS-MaxxMudd/White
Center Panel = 1 Coat RS-MaxxMudd / Mirror Tiles
Right Panel = Flat White (1:1) UPW + White Primer

Room Light



Camera Flash



Camera Flash, Closeup



Face, On Axis



Face, Side Seat



Dark Scene, Darkened Room, On Axis, HD72 Cinema Mode



Dark Scene, Darkened Room, Side Seat, HD72 Cinema Mode



Observations:



Conclusions:


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post #30 of 143 Old 08-25-2006, 05:36 AM
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Tiddler
Almost more fun than a man should have first thing in the morning.

Still digesting your morning offerings. And as always thought provoking. These photos along with the one you have taken over the last week go a long way to illustrating the effect of each paint mix. Some of the outcomes are very clear while some others a bit more puzzling. But it is clearly leading us down the correct path of understanding.

One of the easy things that pop out at you first is the last shots containing the white sample. Even in a light control room or with slight introduced ambient lighting the gray helping blacks is pretty clear no matter what mix you compare with. And yes in all cases some of the whites diminish but any newcomer will be able to judge the pros and cons of that choice from those photos.

I also believe the black vs white leads me to understand and also believe there is light fusion taking place to some degree. And the last two pictures comparing the mirror sample to the white IMO tell a lot. The straight on shot shows the sky brighter on the mirror than the white sample while having similar darks at the bottom of the photo.
The side chair shot same image shows the sky brighter on the white than the mirror and also shows the dark level brighter at the bottom.
This would lead one to believe there is a difference in viewing cones between the two samples and also the mirror sample is of a higher gain at the sacrifice of viewing cone. The interesting thing is that higher gain helped the brightness of the sky on axis but didn't wash out the blacks.

Like I said I'm typing while digesting still and thought may change as the day moves ahead. If this was (Myth Busters) we wouldn't quite be ready to stamp BUSTED yet.

But I wanted to chime in early and say good work. Will be interested in seeing others comments.


Bud

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