Roll-Up Screen Painting Log - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 46 Old 12-07-2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I am looking at this like buying a spare bulb only a lot cheaper.

It's R&D so it's supposed to be expensive right!

This is not about satisfying a need for a screen. That need has been satisfied.

This is about painting a commercial retractible screen. Yes I did it once but I threw in some ingredients that I had laying around. I am uncomfortable recommending an application I have not done at least once myself. So this time it will be the exact mix of simple latex primer, paint, and poly. The exact application method using the exact rollers that I will outline in a tried and tested solution.

I do hear you though. For someone looking for an inexpensive DIY alternative to commercial retractible screens you have broken ground and it deserves consideration.

Where we overlap is the painting of a material that will be rolled up. So far we know we can get it to stick and roll, but will it last? Only time will tell.

Got it. Thanks.

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post #32 of 46 Old 12-07-2006, 02:05 PM
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tiddler,

number one... i'm jealous.
and number two... man you gotta get some professional help.

i didn't know FULL-BLOWN DIY DISEASE was who such a tragic disease.

obvious DIY ANONYMOUS did not help one single bit.
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post #33 of 46 Old 12-08-2006, 07:19 AM
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Great follow up Tiddler--way to learn from your mistakes. I would add a bit from my experience as follows (perhaps this isn't the right place, since as has been stated, I am not painting an existing screen, but a fabric bought from a fabric store), but without opening a new thread, here are two things that I note with my screen:

1. There is very little to no curling or wave activity, even with the multiple number of coats that I have applied to the screen. I don't know if purely fabric screens would give the same result, but it may be that the vinyl side of my screen inhibits shrinking of the screen as the paint dries.

2. I had much better results and more success by using a tinted primer, and foregoing the tinted paint. I could not completely rid myself of the roller marks using the latex (I'm sure my technique is nowhere near as good as Tiddler's), but was able to do a great job just using the primer. It was really tough to screw up the primer coat--no roller marks to be seen...

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post #34 of 46 Old 12-14-2006, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I have mixed feelings about adding water. In theory it would slow the drying, smooth the finish, and reduce the thickness of the paint layer. All that sounds good but if the paint layer is thinner then it will probably take three coats. I'm not sure what the difference is between three thin coats and two normal coats. The only thing I can think of is that the texture introduced by the roller will be less per layer if thinned, but then there will probably be more layers. My gut instinct is to fight the urge to add water and keep the application simple. The primer, UPW, and Behr Matte Poly were all formulated to be rolled so why fight it it right.

Well Tiddler, your wrong on the first account. My experience has been that water-thinned paint dries quicker, not slower. The ratio of water to paint being higher, the water evaporates quicker, leaving less of a thickness of wet paint behind to also dry.

And the second "uncertainty"? Three thin coats applied correctly will distribute the paint with more evenness than two thick coats. Your intent to "roll" on a fabric or Vinyl is the factor that makes your job harder. Not every "easy" route leads to rolling on a finish just because it (rolling) doesn't require the equipment spraying does. You've shown it can be done, but in doing so have illustrated the caveats as well. So being, you have replaced one concern with another, and one that can demand more skill, not less.

Also, unless there are "textile additives" in the paint, multible rolled coats thick enough to cover will risk cracking and peeling. With a rolled primer AND rolled Top coats, you have a fairly thick layer that will not suffer repetitive bouts of being rolled up and down, especially in variable conditions of humidity and heat. This because if the screen is a non-permeable vinyl, and gets coated with a substance that can both attract and absorb moisture and then dry out again, you will have a continual expansion and contraction of the surface. A screen that drys out in a rolled position will resist going "flat" and likewise, a screen that is "dry stiffened" in a straight position is not likely to repeatedly roll up into a tight spiral without the top coating of paint eventually cracking.



The more important and compelling reason for me to spend the time and money on this second screen was to prove the FnEasy Retractable Screen painting method was easy enough for a beginner to attempt and will produce a good image.


IMO, no beginner should attempt the purchase of a retractable screen and then aspire to paint it in this manner. Not without having practiced EXTENSIVELY with his intended paint on a similarly non-textured surface with exactly the same roller method and paint viscosity to be used. And that effectively means getting BO Cloth, stretching it across something to allow for practice rolling, and then evaluating the process personally. All of which is also IMO not "beginner oriented". Can it be done? Yes, and has been. Is it to be construed as being "easy". I cannot agree.....so far. But if anyone can make a believer out of me/us all, your determination to do so should also weigh into the equation.

Of course the need for even having a retractable screen is what makes considering much of the above both necessary and pertinent, and in the least, your efforts to clarify and instruct through a practical 'experiment' is both commendable and valuable. But I do think you should qualify statements like easy, with statements like"I cannot guarantee either the initial results or long tern effects of doing such an application on a pliable material that will effectively be subjected to repeated flexing. For certain, repeated flexing by retracting and lowering the screen should factor into any testing and the publishing of any diffiniative results.

What I myself find as being "easy", others' find intolerably difficult. Reading my posts comes to mind......

But in the 'all in all', you yourself know I wish you nothing but success.



Post edit.

In going back and reading about Steve's own efforts using his selected 'fabric backed' vinyl, it would seem that some (if not all) my concerns would seem unfounded. I hope that's the case, because being wrong in this particular instance whould mean it would be "right" for many others. So I'm hopin' I'm wrong. May it be so, "O" Tiddler.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #35 of 46 Old 12-14-2006, 09:37 AM
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Just to be clear, I am not painting the vinyl side--I am painting the weave side, which is highly absorbant of the primer/paint. I put multiple coats on to rid the surface of the weave texture that was inhibiting the image, especially on bright scenes. I suspect the absorbancy of the weave may aid in hindering the cracking/peeling of the primer/paint.

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post #36 of 46 Old 12-17-2006, 08:54 AM
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Hey Tiddy!

I obtained texture like that many tmes using MMud and never was it an issue. The bumps are not high enough to manifest any noticeable shadows.

Stop worrying. It will turn out OK. With a roller, what you've got is very good, especially if you have no roller marks.

What you'll end up with after applying a top coat..?..., that's a whole 'nother story in the offing. The smoother the surface is, the more introduced roller lines tend to show up.

If in doubt, use a ultra smooth grit sandpaper and sweep sand the surface with 1/2 the pressure you had to use when rolling. That will effectively make that finish smoooooooooooooth.

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post #37 of 46 Old 12-18-2006, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiddler View Post

Wbassett, did you have this typical rolled wall paint texture when you used the SW Gray Screen?

Yes I have a very similar texture but you don't notice it unless you are only a few inches from the screen.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #38 of 46 Old 02-20-2007, 03:31 PM
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Hi tiddler, I also have one of the electric 1.4 eastporters screen's. I'm curious about the differents your seeing. I was thinking of building anouther screen (grey) to see if I could inprove my black levels and contrast. could you let me know what you like better now.

Thanks

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post #39 of 46 Old 02-21-2007, 07:34 AM
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That's correct. My main reason why is that I would like to improve my black levels. I find they are washed out with this screen. I was wondering if your painted screen improved much in that area. What use has improved other than texture? Was the gain much lower, for lets say football games? I held up a piece of my old entertainment unit, that was a silver laminate, over part of my screen and the blacks look alot darker. That has motivated me to look into a grey, or even silver screen.

Thanks

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post #40 of 46 Old 02-21-2007, 08:49 AM
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Thanks Tiddler, those pics where great. I'll do some reading and figure out what mixture works for me. And don't worry, I have no plans on painting my electric screen, as I know I'll screw it up.

Thanks again for your help.
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post #41 of 46 Old 06-23-2007, 07:11 PM
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Shameless bump to maintain a great contribution.

Garry
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post #42 of 46 Old 07-20-2012, 05:23 PM
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I want to show a movie outside for the neighbor kids. So I got a sail from a sail shop and cut it down. It is made of a synthentic material and I need to paint it but am afraid to start without some council. It is 14 feet by 8 feet and I intend on rolling it up on a legth of plastic pipe 3 or 2 inch. Can anyone help me?
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post #43 of 46 Old 07-20-2012, 06:33 PM
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Hang on...help is coming.....

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #44 of 46 Old 07-22-2012, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icor611 View Post

I want to show a movie outside for the neighbor kids. So I got a sail from a sail shop and cut it down. It is made of a synthentic material and I need to paint it but am afraid to start without some council. It is 14 feet by 8 feet and I intend on rolling it up on a length of plastic pipe 3 or 2 inch. Can anyone help me?

Now comes the time to determine what it is your looking for "performance wise". If "After Dark viewing is all that's required, much of all the rest of the decision making is dependent upon what PJ your using and how big the Screen will be. BTW...what is your desired Screen Size? With 96" x 178" to work with, if you subtract something like 4"on the "height" and 18" (cut to 168") on the "width" to incorporate Grommets around all edges or for some other fastening system, minus the extra 8" (...4" around all the viewable screen edges...) you wind up with 160" diagonal

After that, the next thing that's needed is for you to stretch the material out to the dimension you want and get any / all wrinkles out of it. Can you relate exactly (...or as close as possible...) what type of material it is? I've done some sailing and many such sails seem to be made of an almost "plasticized cloth".

Next, you'll need to acquire a good spray gun at reasonable cost. http://www.gleempaint.com/noname.html

You'll need at the least a full Gallon of a good, resilient interior Enamel paint, most likely a Bright White.

Review your needs and priorities and return with a bit more info and we'll get you started PDQ!

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post #45 of 46 Old 07-22-2012, 09:10 PM
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I have an Epson 8350 2000 lumins. I spoke with a fellow at Visual Apex and he told me to try for the 14' width size. He has one that is half the lumins and they use it on a 2 door garage door. Yep, the material is like a plastic film almost. The portions of material have seams running at an angle which I hope will be less visually distracting than hors. or vert. lines. I can iron the wrinkles out at a wool temp setting and it does pretty good. I am using a paint by Krylon called Krylon Fusion. It is for plastic and wicker furniture. I am planning on ironing it out and then rolling it up on a tube. I have tried the paint and iron on a smaller piece and it seems to be doing OK. I was afraid of the heat melting it but it held up OK to the heat setting I got too. Also afraid of ruining my wife's iron. She puts up with a lot!

Thanks for your council. The material does seem plastic like. Fine threads, tight weave. crinkly like. The seams have a gray thread and so that is what I am painting over. I hope that the WOW factor will help everyone forget the artifacts generated by the screen. Anyway I got the sail for free so I can't beat the price.

If I use the good paint you describe will I be able to roll it up without it falling off?

Thanks.
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post #46 of 46 Old 07-22-2012, 10:16 PM
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Those Diagonal seams are special stitching that are intended to keep the sail both taunt and resistant to tearing when stressed from varied directions at one time. Great for making a ultra lightweight material suitable for holding wind....not so much for allowing you to cover it with a paint without the diagonal lines popping out. And they will "pop out" because there is no way to cover them with either a dark enough or thick enough coating that they would still not be visible when a bright image is up on the screen.

In order for any coating to do it's work, it must be applied at a minimal thickness. With the material as described, that would entail applying a coating that just barely covers the existing color (what is that, BTW? ) The problem being that with such thin material (...and such material is extremely thin...) the tendency to "crinkle" introduces a worst case example of potential flaking and peeling. That might be reduced somewhat by only using a special adhesive primer such as Glidden "Gripper", applied as 3-4 dusters. I would not venture to state than any thicker emulsive-like paint...even dusted on, would tend to wear very well.

I know "Free" comes pretty cheaply, but it can also cost you a bundle in wasted effort, reduced viewing quality, and the dreaded "sour grapes factor" where you say, "I really didn't expect much for nuthin' nohow...)

So your left with this;

If you spray on the "Gripper" as 3-4 Dusters..... you must do so on both sides because the material is pretty translucent (usually) and the necessarily thin surface coating is not gonna keep light from penetrating through otherwise. A lot of light...and that means a net loss of light you'll need to illuminate sich a large surface area. Afterward...., both rolling and storage will have to be an exercise in careful handling and storage...and storage isn't gonna be all that easy with such a longish tube/roll of what will be material that has a delicate surface.

What you really need to try to wrap yourself around is the necessity of getting / using something that will work without paint, or in the least accept a paint in a more "user friendly manner". Like the plasticized side of outsized Black Out Cloth material....or Billboard Vinyl.

Of course, and if your willing to risk it, by all means go ahead and try the "Gripper" on the Sail Cloth, and treat it as gingerly as possible. It migh suffice...or it might even excel. Either way...win or lose, it will be a learning experience, and who can say absolutely if it will or will not work. I cannot...I can only speculate through assumption based on prior knowledge....a bit of actual experience, and the abiding desire to encourage people to "Do it Right the First Time"....not just take a "Stab at it".

Then again, people have been taking a stab at things on DIY Screens for as long as I've been involved on this Forum.

I know. I have the scars to prove it.

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