RGB Paint Mix Experiments & Discussion - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 413 Old 09-13-2006, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Actually you should be able to see it quite clearly on your monitor. My LCD monitors at work and home show it quite clearly. My CRT monitor at home need some tweeking when I started this type of screen photography. T try adjusting the brightness and contrast on your monitor.

Thanks a lot, it didn't occur to me that my monitor needed adjusting.
T.
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post #92 of 413 Old 09-13-2006, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

My apologies to T. I was out of line. I just got a little agitated. So, please forgive me if I ruffled some feathers.

.........

So that's it in a nutshell. I will try and act more responsibly on these threads. I won't look at my electricity bill, $780!!!, and post directly after like I did last night.

No problem, man. We're good.
I would have been agitated as hell after seeing a huge electric bill, too. Holy smokes.

T.
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post #93 of 413 Old 09-13-2006, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by benven View Post

Didn't the white levels stay put because he used metallic paint full of all of those sparklies and the sheen from the poly? I think that had more of a part in this than the RGB portion of the paint.

I don't know for sure. I think that the experiments that Tiddlers setting up might answer a lot of these questions for us.

This experimentation is great. Yay!

T.
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post #94 of 413 Old 09-13-2006, 07:41 PM
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Benven

Thanks for the info on your set up. I try and build a mental picture of everyone's setup or at least the frequent posters. And try and get a feel for what conditions they are viewing under. Like Tiddler I have posted enough pictures that I think people have a feel for my set up as they do his. It kind of helps a lot when you know someone's setup as to why they are working down some path they take. Ambient has never been a problem in my basement bat cave other than I have made it one because of my liking lights on when I have guys over to watch the fights or something. Sure a movie alone shut the lights down and enjoy. But sometimes you want a living room setting. Your problem of ambient is more real world and sunlight is a whole different animal than my dimmer spots. And given your setup I can see why you like the higher lumen projector and gain enhancing screens. And also why you have been working the gray in there as much as you can.

I was happy to see every one working together and the free flow of ideas being passed around. I hope we keep along these paths.

Tiddler

I haven't known you long but I have known you long enough to know enough to step back and see what you are going to do. And that's what I'm going to do here now. I for one look forward to what these RGB pictures are going to show. And I have utmost confidence the results will be what they are when you are done. You always just do the work and throw it out for the world to ponder. A pretty good approach I must say.


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post #95 of 413 Old 09-13-2006, 08:35 PM
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Just a reminder(without stepping on your toes ppl(again!)) that PC color numbers don't match video and projector numbering.

PC black = 0
PJ Black = 16

From 0~16 is quite often refered too as blacker than black.
The DVE calibration disc has references with below 16 to which you calibrate your PJ too.

Tha same applies too PC colors at 255, the pj and video references are at 235.

So when you are using colors from PC color charts bare this in mind and you may be best to use reference colors from calibration sources to get true RGB or the subtractive colors.

Regards
<^..^>

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post #96 of 413 Old 09-13-2006, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post

This may help you guys in this quest.

There is a possibility that you guys are forgetting the fact that RBG projected creates white, and RBG paint mixed creates black(ish)

This first link has some very useful color mixing tools regarding the above comment.

http://mvh.sr.unh.edu/mvhinvestigati...stigations.htm


This link is aimed at helping your aims or goals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color

Regards
<^..^>



added this one too.

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/l...imaryhome.html

Maybe you guys need to be using the 3 primary subtractive colors(cyan, yellow, and magenta). Not RGB.

Smokey Joe,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting those links. They are going to help me enormously in interpreting the results of Tiddlers color experiment here. I especially like the first link.

T.
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post #97 of 413 Old 09-14-2006, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

These are the color blocks printed on an HP Color Laser:

..................................

I'm not quite sure what to make of these photos. At first glance I would say this does not work. I'm not sure but I don't think these printers use RGB colors. I suspect the rsults using paints will be different.

Tiddler, I don't think that there is a printer in existence that just uses red, green and blue ink. The pigments in the ink act the same way as any red, green and blue pigments when you mix them together, they make a really dark color - approaching black.

All printed material uses cyan, magenta and yellow inks or pigments, along with black ink to help the darker values and black areas being printed. Even film photography uses cyan, magenta and yellow (and black) in making prints. All printers that I know of use CYMK (the K representing black).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I put the first coat on the Red, Green, Blue, White, RGB Metallic cards. I also put the first coat on the Red, Green, Blue, RGB Pigment in Transparent medium cards. If you have not figured it yet these are the Delta colors used in the DeltaMoon formula.

Interesting Observation: The RGB Metallic is a very dark blue color. The RGM Delta Pigments is a very dark color almost black.

Based on what I saw with the printed color blocks I think the Metallic color blocks will be a washout. The Delta Transparent Pigments could be more interesting.

Don't count out the RGB Metallic cards yet. They won't act the same way as the red green and blue colors did from a printer.
This is how pigments mix to make colors on a printer....



and here is how colored light mixes to make colors on a projector screen.....


Waaaaayyy different and very confusing if you haven't run across it before.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the transparent pigments test, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Unfortunately the painted cards will probably need another coat so it may not be until Friday night before I get them mounted.

Ponder away gents, and hopfully some ladies lurking?

Can you do me a favor when you start testing the Delta RGB stuff? Take one photo of the samples under bright room light only, and then take a photo of the samples under bright white from the projector only. I'd like to see if there is any difference.

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post #98 of 413 Old 09-14-2006, 03:23 AM
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no probs Tgreenwood, one must look to see if we aren't re-inventing the wheel.

It's so easy to get caught in self delusion, when a little research round the net or library reveals alot of the nuts and bolts without turning a screw or laying paint on MDF.

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post #99 of 413 Old 09-14-2006, 10:13 PM
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Am I assuming correctly that the top row of colors are from your printer?

T.
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post #100 of 413 Old 09-14-2006, 10:58 PM
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It looks like the metallic part of the Folkart metallic paint reflects a lot of everything that hits it, no matter what color it is. You were right, the metallics may be a washout here.

The Delta paints are working more like theory says they should, especially the blue. The blue is responding under blue, magenta and cyan light like it is supposed to. It looks like you have a blue winner.

The red is only half as bright as it should be under red light. The red should also show up under yellow and magenta light from the projector and it does but the hue and intensity are really off.

The green is also only half as bright as it should be under green light. The green should also show up under cyan and yellow light from the projector and it does but the hue and intensity are off here too.

Could you tell me what R, G and B values you used when you printed out the color sheet you used to find color matches? I'm really curious, and trying to figure this out. Did the printout match the monitor colors well?

T.
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post #101 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 07:20 AM
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I would like to know the process you used for projecting the different color of light. Because I know how I would do it and I would like to know If i'm thinking the same way you guys are.
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post #102 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 07:38 AM
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I have been following this thread with interest. And at the same time trying to figure out what the goal is exactly. The more I read and understand the less I know and the more questions I have. So before I ask the questions tell me if what I believe is going on with RGB screens.

In paints of this type it is required that the color be achieved by just (ONE) pigment per color one red one green and one blue. The reason for this is that the pigment particles do not combine to form a color but it's the particle itself even if this particle is the size of a piece of dust its that same RGB color coming off it.

We are thinking of these swatches as particles for the case of this study.

A projector sends out 3 different wavelengths of light in the RG&B wavelengths.

The hope is that light striking a swatch looks to be the same as what it looks reflecting from white when it strikes its perfect match swatch, and likewise when striking each of the other two it shows black. (or absorbing)

Ok now what we are assuming here if what I just posted is true.
We are assuming that the paints being tested are made from a base and then just one pigment added to them. That way the whole swatch will represent what just one particle would represent if we could view so small.
If in fact the paint was made someway that two or three pigments were used to say make the shade of red wouldn't we then looking at it at the particle level not be canceling to black but getting some light back from maybe one of the pigments.

Ok now questions:

How do we make the projector just shoot out one of its 3 colors to do the testing? Are we just sending it a image of a color swatch from photo shop or something that has a RGB of say 0 0 255 ?

Now when we find the 3 pigments and mix them what is the hope for this?
I'm assuming it's to reflect that color back as pure and the other two will just show black.
I'm also assuming that in doing this we will make the outward appearance to our eyes look neutral gray.
I'm assuming the benefit is to say now we have a gray screen in appearance made using no black that will have a advantage of using 1/3 of its graying pigment to return light vs. in the case of black pigment none of its pigment will return light.

Can prof or someone more knowledgeable than I tell me if there are man made pigments or natural pigments that perfectly match these 3 wavelengths?

Is there a way to take a craft paint and break it down as to what pigments went into the mix?


Bud

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post #103 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 10:22 AM
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Ok lets try math. Assuming a screen has one hundred bazillion particles of pigment on its surface. Ok that's to many for even me to think about. Lets say we take a area that's 100 pigments wide and 100 pigments tall and look at that we would be looking at a little square maybe the size of one pixel and it would contain 10,000 pigment particles.

Assuming white, black, red, green and blue pigment particles are all the same size and shape. And assuming we wanted a feel of neutral gray like I found worked for me I put 22/48 oz of black into one gallon of white (128) oz. So 22/48=.458 oz of black.
Or .458/128=.0036 or .36% of the mix was black.

That means of the 10,000 particles 36 of them were black and 9964 were white.

Now assuming we use RGB and we mix equal amounts of each do we get black? I'm assuming we do even though Benven refers to it by another name.
So in our 100 x 100 particle square we will now add to 9964 white 12 R, 12G and 12B to get our 36. And when we view this from a distance we cant tell it from the lampblack gray.

Now we project to the two side by side. The 36 lampblacks gobble up every bit of RGB coming at then while the RGB gray only eats 24 and spits the remaining 12 back at us untouched. We have gained an efficiency of 12 out of 10,000 or 12/10,000= .0012 or .12% that's a little better than one tenth of one percent improvement.


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post #104 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgreenwood View Post


Could you tell me what R, G and B values you used when you printed out the color sheet you used to find color matches? I'm really curious, and trying to figure this out. Did the printout match the monitor colors well?

T.

And maybe post an attachment of it?

T.
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post #105 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 11:19 AM
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I'm still confused why the layered approached is not being considered. The next experiment should be to take the RGB grey mix and by using the same ingredients make a red, green, and blue mix and apply them in layered fashion. Then compare the layered to the unlayered.

The same mix from below was then all put together with very different(bad) results.

refer to the following http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...42#post7740042
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post #106 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 11:38 AM
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I'm working on it actually. I'm buying a HVLP gravity feed gun and compressor this weekend. No more rolling for me. I could never make a perfect screen using a roller.

So once I'm up and running with the HVLP setup I will try a layered approach, but sprayed on. Combined with Calman software and spyder pro maybe I can get some measured results that show something worth while.
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post #107 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

In my world it is better to make a dumb comment or ask a stupid question than to sit quietly and watch us run off in a ditch. Of course it might be amusing!

Hey I resemble that remark.


Bud

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post #108 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Here is the word file.

I did not compare them to this monitor. The two print outs looked the same, exept that the wax was a bit shinny and the laser was a matte finish. The printers I used:
  • Tektronix Phaser 8200 Hot Wax Printer
  • HP 5550dn Color Lazer Printer

The Delta pigment paints looked very close except the red was a bit brighter. The metallic paints were also visually close to the printouts.

...........

Should be a few screen shots tonight.

It is possible that your printout colors of red and green don't match what you would see on your monitor (or what the projector produces). When I compare the photos you took of your printout and the .doc file, the colors are quite different. The photo of the projected green looks quite close to to the doc file green. Could you compare the two and tell me what you see?

T.
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post #109 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 03:18 PM
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Thats whats I'm thinking about any pictures on this forum. If you don't have every device ICC profiled then the colors could be off. I make 4 color profiles for a living and the difference in color accuracy is drastic.
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post #110 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

The real problem is what is correct, the printer, this monitor, my projector, the camera, or the monitor at home. And then there's always the chance I am color blind.

... need some sleep! ZZZzzz

My opinion as to what is correct.......
1) The projector (we are trying to match its RGB pixel filters)
2) An LCD monitor (the same technology-RGB pixel filters)
3) A digital camera (uses RGB sensors for color)
4) A CRT monitor (same principle but not the same technology)
5) The printer (simulates RGB colors with CYMK inks)
In that order.

I had a nap but I need another one.

T.

Color blindness test
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post #111 of 413 Old 09-15-2006, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Ok lets try math. Assuming a screen has one hundred bazillion particles of pigment on its surface. Ok that's to many for even me to think about. Lets say we take a area that's 100 pigments wide and 100 pigments tall and look at that we would be looking at a little square maybe the size of one pixel and it would contain 10,000 pigment particles.

Assuming white, black, red, green and blue pigment particles are all the same size and shape. And assuming we wanted a feel of neutral gray like I found worked for me I put 22/48 oz of black into one gallon of white (128) oz. So 22/48=.458 oz of black.
Or .458/128=.0036 or .36% of the mix was black.

That means of the 10,000 particles 36 of them were black and 9964 were white.

Now assuming we use RGB and we mix equal amounts of each do we get black? I'm assuming we do even though Benven refers to it by another name.
So in our 100 x 100 particle square we will now add to 9964 white 12 R, 12G and 12B to get our 36. And when we view this from a distance we cant tell it from the lampblack gray.

Now we project to the two side by side. The 36 lampblacks gobble up every bit of RGB coming at then while the RGB gray only eats 24 and spits the remaining 12 back at us untouched. We have gained an efficiency of 12 out of 10,000 or 12/10,000= .0012 or .12% that's a little better than one tenth of one percent improvement.

Now that's my kind of logic! I have a couple points to add:

The RGB pigments don't have the same absorbtion as lamp black, so a direct comparison isn't possible, i.e. 1R+1G+1B does not equal 3Black. If you put 22/48 thalo blue in a gallon of white, the resultant shade is nowhere near as dark as 22/48 black.

I did some preliminary testing, and would estimate that an RGB gray that is roughly equivalent to 22/48 black (in lightness) would take at least 70/48 in combined RGB pigments. This still doesn't give RGB gray any great advantage, but it is a step in the right direction. And the RGB approach does give much greater control of color temperature.

Garry
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post #112 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 04:15 AM
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A couple of comments. There was also a small amount of silver and gold powder added to the mix. Colours look to be almost identical to the EluneVision. I assume lights off in the pictures? Can you take some pics with the lights on? Pretty please. Also, look how good the side shot is. Tiddler, can you please put up your RS Maxx mix up against it so we can see the difference on axis and off axis.

I am still waiting for my silver interference paint to come in. We can get the exact same performance with just silver. Actually, mabe a bit better because the screen will be a tad darker whothout sacrificing whites. That's one reason I'm not a beleiver in the RGB theory. And again, not to be negative, I haven't seen anything to prove to me that RGB is the way to go.

Tiddler, I can certainly send you an upainted sample along with a new silver sample.

Meow.
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post #113 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 06:16 AM
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Thanks tiddler. I thought that's what the panel was. You can see improvement over the panel both on axis and off axis. The shadow detail in the shot with Arnold is a perfect example.

The untreated sample is a matte white vinyl product that has been primed prior to coating. It is difficult to get the mix to "stick" to uncoated vinyl. The texture is not from spraying. It is part of the vinyl. I searched along time to find something like that.

I sort of been following the laminate thread. I'll take a peek.

Meow.
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post #114 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 06:43 AM
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That is some nice performance, Benven, and thanks for the shots Tiddler. That powder panel does not display any of the color shifting issues that the RS-Maxx panel does.
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post #115 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 07:03 AM
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Thanks bluesboy. Colour rendition is excellent. Tiddler, thanks for the shots. You can really see the white levels and lack of colour push. Plus the viewing cone is as wide as wide can be. Now, I know I can increase performance with the silver interference paint. Just give me a few more weeks. As far as the material is concernec, I can provide details. I need to get more, so I can get the info at that point in time.

Meow.
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post #116 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 07:43 AM
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I have to say benven's panel seems to have much better flesh tones and overall it looks better. It's hard to really say looking at a picture on a monitor... Tiddler how does it look in person? On this end it looks better to me...

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #117 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 07:44 AM
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It would seem to be a unusual comparison over which to make judgements in, comparing RS_MaxxMudd and the others when the RS_MaxxMudd has a base coat of Flat Black? Why is this not being taken up as the reason the sample shows such a shift toward darker hues?

The only truly comparable test would be a sample of Benven's next to a RS_MaxxMudd sample that did not have such a drastic hinderance as far as working with any light absorbed.

Jimminy Crickets! The "Black" undercoating idea dates back first to the painting of the back of Polywall, (...attenuated ed the image somewhat but did improve CR...) and then as a Ultra Dark Grey under MMud.(...general consensus was it looked to dark and dull...) and 1 or two Folks have done small sample using Black under MMud. No good reports have ever came from such "Paint over Paint" trials, save the acknowledgment that Black levels increased considerably....but with crushing and shift-prone results.

Even with that, I'm seeing the RS_MaxxMudd keeping up pretty well under such an obvious handicap. But I wouldn't wish that handicap off on any aspiring DIY mix, so I'll not suggest that such a comparison be made. I do have to request that this evaluation be considered a "Apples to Oranges" situation, and that to make it a valid one without any reservations, that the RS_MaxxMudd Sample be done in such a manner as to represent a normal application.

Other than that request being a necessary commentary on the "test", Tiddler's efforts once again show how much thought and work he throws into this 'ol DIY stuff.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #118 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 08:38 AM
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absolutely.

there is not a rs-maxxmudd panel being represented in the way i or MM advocate here at all!

one panel is painted on black basecoat and is an obvious handicapp to white levels as MM has stated above.

and the other panel is modified by tiddler to be DARKER than a standard RSM panel.

a definitely apples to oranges comparison.

of course benven knew that before making his mine is better comments.
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post #119 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 09:02 AM
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MM & PB: You haven't been involved in this thread at all until now, so why are you so quick to jump in and defend your product? Tiddler is free to make whatever comparisons he wishes, and is under no obligation to follow your "rules". He is in no way bound to what you "advocate".

I respectfully submit that if you want to do some comparisons, then do them. MM, I imagine that Ben would be happy to send you a sample - and I believe he has already provided you with some specifics on this mix, since it is similar to the one you had agreed to test earlier, but never followed through.

Tiddler is doing some great work here, and many are very interested. Why don't you let him do his test the way he wants, and devote some time to threads where you have promised to do tests?

Garry
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post #120 of 413 Old 09-16-2006, 09:26 AM
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I for one have no intention of letting this thread get disrupted like so many others.

This is NOT an RS-Maxxmudd shootout thread, period. Tiddler, post whatever screen shots you wish, but please do not change the direction of this thread to satisfy the demands of those who have a commercial interest in the results.

Garry
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