Alternative methods with quality results - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 10-06-2006, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a rather long but very good conversation with someone today that was telling me about some of the ideas and methods that were used or tried to get off the ground in here in the past. For various reasons they either never went anyplace or stopped dead in their tracks even though they provided screens that were very high DIY quality.

The forums are starting to open up again and get back to the true nature of why we are all here, so lets bring back some of the forgotten about methods.

Clarence and Eric already reintroduced us to laminates, and they are an extremely good one step simple solution, but there are other methods that are just as good, so let's get this rolling again...

Anyone that has a blast from the past that for whatever reason got lost during the era when one or two methods dominated, post about it here and if you remember and can find the old thread throw a link in to it.

Bruce I know you mentioned some excellent roof paints that not only work for outdoor screens, but make excellent screens anywhere and it is something that can be applied to a retractable screen if I understood you right... there are many people that will be very interested in that.

Also gain methods... anyone that has tips to ramp up gain, we have people very interested in high gain torus screens, so that will be a much enjoyed topic.

I figure we can list the forgotten about ways here, put links to the threads, and if a particular topic really takes off the person posting can start a new thread on it.

I also spoke to 3M today. They may have some products of interest in here, and I know the ambient light film research was a thread of interest to many, maybe we can get that topic going again too.

Also for you guys that have been on here for years but have been idle for a long time, let us new people know when we are reinventing the wheel. There's no sense rehashing things from the beginning, but maybe new blood can add some new ideas and enthusiasm and who knows what could come out of it :)

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #2 of 22 Old 10-06-2006, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll start it off...

I have said this in countless threads now, but I believe in the KISS method (Keep It Simple Stupid-- that applies to me because sometimes I tend to be 'stupid' and make things complicated!) and I think majority of the people want the KISS method too.

So we start with basic whites. Tiddler covered most of this ground in his Beginner's guide. But there are lots of questions about what white paint.

UPW is very popular, and some people like plain Killzit.I was told there is an even better white paint than UPW... Bruce that's a lead in for you to reacquaint us with the paint you were telling me about... (especially since I can't remember the name of it!)

Edited due to finding out a pic used as an example was photoshop'd by someone... bad that people do things like that...

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #3 of 22 Old 10-06-2006, 08:22 PM
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Removed link to the screen picture that Photoshopped to enhance results.

FYI - The poster said that image was Photoshopped.

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post #4 of 22 Old 10-06-2006, 10:15 PM
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Credit bruce can for this DIY find: Rosco Off Broadway White White #05351.
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post #5 of 22 Old 10-07-2006, 01:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerBrian
FYI - The poster said that image was Photoshopped.
Thanks I didn't see that and I removed that link... doesn't it suck that people have to do that?

BTW BommerBrian your poster look awesome!

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #6 of 22 Old 10-07-2006, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time
Credit bruce can for this DIY find: Rosco Off Broadway White White #05351.
THAT'S IT... that's the one he mentioned and I couldn't remember the name.

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post #7 of 22 Old 10-07-2006, 07:05 AM
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Liquitex gesso combinations are the blast from the past I've stuck with over the last 5 years. I don't recall who made the "discovery", but I've painted myself a few screens with this stuff over the last several years in my homes. Everyone I've recommended it to is very satisfied. BO cloth or drywall is great either way and it rolls on without any roller marks easily. Best of all, it sticks with the theory of only using white and grey and not introducing other colors like too often are found in the Home Depot stuff.
I figured I'd write a response because I just put a fresh top coat on my drywall screen the other day since mine had gotten a bit beat up from kids activities. Here's a quick recipe that I've been very impressed with:

Primer coat of white gesso with however much Neutral Gray Colored Acrylic Gesso you want to add.

Top coat of:

8 oz Iridescent/Pearlescent Medium
8 oz Clear Acrylic Gesso
4 oz Matte Medium (increases translucency and deters any sheen)
2 oz of your plain white Acrylic Gesso
2 X 2 oz Iridescent Bright Silver Soft Body color (in the bottles, not tubes)
2 oz Metallic/Iridescent White Medium Density Artist Color (in the bottles next to the silver)
I also thin this mix with 4 oz distilled water since I prefer a regular medium nap paint roller vs the foam rollers and they suck up a lot of paint.

Basically, you end up with a nice slightly translucent emulsion with a very matte finish that's also full of a bunch of titanium coated mica flakes and stainless steel flakes (from the silver). The screen ends up with great pop, excellent 3D effect, and no negatives. Adding some drops of the neutral gray to the top coat can really add to black level as well. I'm light controlled, so the gray from the silver is enough for me and the screen is just faintly gray.
I've never seen a High Power or a Glass Bead screen, only various matte white and grey screens in showrooms. I've always walked away thinking they're good, but don't seem to have quite the 3D effect I get with mine. I use a Mitsu XD300u.

Anyway, gesso used to be talked about quite a bit as an easy solution utilizing professional artist mediums and colors to avoid taking the gamble of house paint solutions that typically are poor quality and often introduce unwanted color balance issues. I take no credit other than taking the time over the years to perfect a top coat that works very well for my situation using these materials.
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post #8 of 22 Old 10-07-2006, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I think they were using Liquitex in the RGB thread and it is a very nice paint.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #9 of 22 Old 10-07-2006, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mn3kgtvr4
Primer coat of white gesso with however much Neutral Gray Colored Acrylic Gesso you want to add.

Top coat of:

8 oz Iridescent/Pearlescent Medium
8 oz Clear Acrylic Gesso
4 oz Matte Medium (increases translucency and deters any sheen)
2 oz of your plain white Acrylic Gesso
2 X 2 oz Iridescent Bright Silver Soft Body color (in the bottles, not tubes)
2 oz Metallic/Iridescent White Medium Density Artist Color (in the bottles next to the silver)
I also thin this mix with 4 oz distilled water since I prefer a regular medium nap paint roller vs the foam rollers and they suck up a lot of paint.

Basically, you end up with a nice slightly translucent emulsion with a very matte finish that's also full of a bunch of titanium coated mica flakes and stainless steel flakes (from the silver). The screen ends up with great pop, excellent 3D effect, and no negatives. Adding some drops of the neutral gray to the top coat can really add to black level as well. I'm light controlled, so the gray from the silver is enough for me and the screen is just faintly gray.
I've never seen a High Power or a Glass Bead screen, only various matte white and grey screens in showrooms. I've always walked away thinking they're good, but don't seem to have quite the 3D effect I get with mine. I use a Mitsu XD300u.
.
That is interesting mix and I am glad you are happy.

I don't see where the neutral grey is in your ingredient list. I assume you are getting this from the local art supply store. I would like to know how accurate this neutral grey is.

As to the performance of the screen, my guess is you have some serious gain going on with all that pearl and silver. As always the problem with gain is hot spotting. You may not see it but, any gain will give you the spot.

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post #10 of 22 Old 10-07-2006, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
As always the problem with gain is hot spotting. You may not see it but, any gain will give you the spot.
Adding my take to Ericglo's quote above...
The center of a screen will always be more illuminated than the edges; however it's the flat / matte finish that results from the ingredients other than those responsible for the increase in gain (like silver and pearl) that most helps mitigate the perception of a hot or warm spot.
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post #11 of 22 Old 10-07-2006, 03:55 PM
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Yeah, I honestly doubt there's any gain going on here. If you read reviews done by those with actual instruments to test screens (like pjcentral) most of the matte white and gray screens are just below 1.0 up to maybe 1.2 or so even with special top coatings. My screen is really just a slightly translucent topcoat of super high quality mediums and pigments resulting in a great 3D image that doesn't LOSE gain. All without introducing any cone issues or hotspots. I did try a coat a while back excluding the matte medium and the little bit of white gesso (think the flattest paint you've ever seen, get thirsty looking at it) and ended up with a surface sheen equivalent to satin paint. Rolling is the way I roll, so there were odd hotspots and glossiness on bright scenes. Watched "The Cave", though, and was impressed! No go on that so I painted over it with the right mixture. It stays just translucent enough so that if you look a couple inches away from the screen with the pj on you do see the extremely tiny mica flakes present adding a little sparkle to the image. With the pj off it's just matte. No mad science involved. I use a bowl and a whisk to mix it together. Ha.
Anyway, I'm curious to hear about other blasts from the past. Rustoleum high heat silver engine paint or whatever!
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post #12 of 22 Old 10-08-2006, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I found a Rosco dealer only 17 miles away!

They have some interesting products, even some clear coatings that may work for my laminate tests. I think I'll stop by and at least get some of the Off Broadway White.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #13 of 22 Old 10-21-2006, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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This isn't a blast from the past, but has anyone used Sherwin Williams Paint?

They have a paint finish called Matte. The guy that worked there said it's between a flat finish and eggshell finish as far as sheen.

They have some interesting looking colors... one even has a curious name... SW7071 Gray Screen. It's actually a nice looking gray. I wonder if the paint companies are 'unofficially' jumping on the painted screen band wagon? Behr Silver Screen has gone beyond just the AVS forums and I see it popping up and being mentioned on numerous forums.

I heard someone say they talked to Behr and Behr's comment was 'they have never officially tested any of their paints as a screen product' ... but it is interesting that Behr has a paint called Silver Screen, and now Sherwin Williams has one called Gray Screen... (actually I have no idea how long Sherwin Williams has had this color)

Back to the other colors... Sherwin Williams also has Quick Silver SW 6245 which is a lighter gray that looks promising.

Here is some initial color data...

Quicksilver
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ilver_data.jpg

Gray Screen
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...creen_Data.jpg

Lazy Gray
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...yGray_Data.jpg

Olympus White
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...White_Data.jpg

Site White
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...White_Data.jpg


I also spoke to RP Imaging about their neutral gray paint. They wouldn't give be any spectro breakdown of the color, what the gentleman said was it was Munsell N8/ gray as specified by ISO 3664:2000, and was very neutral. I am thinking about getting some to test with.

Basically I was wondering if any of these have been tried.

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post #14 of 22 Old 10-21-2006, 06:17 PM
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I don't know if its considered true DIY, but I've been experimenting with plexiglass. All credit has to go to Prof as it was his idea. I sprayed a small piece of plexi with a matte finish spray (translucent) and have been holding it above various high gain surfaces and everything looks good. I've been discussing it in an active thread called "Has anyone tried??"
I ordered a 4x8 sheet of plexi with 1 side done in the matte finish. The best way to describe it is it looks opaque, but if you were to lay it flat on a newspaper you could read the words. I dying for it to arrive to see how it compares to very poorly, unevenly sprayed sample.
The plexi lowers the gain slightly but greatly improves the viewing cone and virtually eliminates hotspotting (at least on my small sample.
The skys the limit for what can go behind it. I'm starting with a piece of white tileboard. If not bright enough I will try white aluminum. But then there's gray aluminum, silver, mill, any of the shiny WilsonArt products (the metals look cool but $$$) silver wrapping paper and on and on and on. Anything with a high gain.

Once its here I will report in the other thread and when I figure out how to post a link I will put 1 here.
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post #15 of 22 Old 10-21-2006, 08:36 PM
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It seems like it will take me forever to get to this, so I will throw it out there. Along the lines of what John just mentioned, I have thought about doing mirror finishes. Think of the piano black paint jobs that some are emulating on speakers. If one could do this on a large scale and coat it with a translucent coating, then you could have a high gain. The benefit is you could use white or neutral grey for the color. Even better is you could probably use a dark neutral grey to bring the gain down to 1 or unity. This would give you the benefit of a grey screen without losing gain. It is just a theory that I have. One of these days, I will get around to doing a test sample.

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post #16 of 22 Old 10-21-2006, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Plexi and films/top coating have been something I have been very interested in long before I ever found AVS. I'm not sure because I've never experimented with any of it, but I am very curious if there is some value in at least testing this.

I keep looking at the samples of the HoloVega screens I have and soon I will have some Vikuiti samples... none of these are paints, they are all layered methods that employ multiple techniques... retro-reflection combined with angular-reflection and dark base substrates. HoloVega though really isn't dark at all... it's a very light gray, but it is VERY smooth and shiny, and breaks all the rules as far as what we think an ambient light screen is supposed to be. So there is a lot going on with these commercial screens. Like I have said countless times I just don't think any one method is going to be the answer when it comes to a DIY ambient light screen. I honestly believe it is going to take a lot of collaboration and multiple application methods to make a DIY ambient screen that is on par with a DNP. Unfortunately everyone hates hearing that and wants to believe it can be done with one method and only one method. Until we all stop thinking that way all we are going to do is argue and fight and continue to convince ourselves that the method you happen to like is the one and only way it will be achieved.

There is a huge rift and divide among DIY and I really don't know why people are like that. I can appreciate a paint mix that works well... but that doesn't always go in reverse... I see it all the time where paint rules and people will push and taut a paint method and rip anything else to pieces. Pride only goes so far before it becomes arrogance.

Plexi is a method I very much would like to see some work done in. My thinking wasn't necesarily a top coating as much as a 'back coating' or seperate layered material... like I said I think this is a worthy area to explore and if a couple people from the paint side can be open minded to work with the sheet people, we may break some new ground!

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post #17 of 22 Old 10-22-2006, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gallipt
I don't know if its considered true DIY, but I've been experimenting with plexiglass. All credit has to go to Prof as it was his idea. I sprayed a small piece of plexi with a matte finish spray (translucent) and have been holding it above various high gain surfaces and everything looks good. I've been discussing it in an active thread called "Has anyone tried??"
I ordered a 4x8 sheet of plexi with 1 side done in the matte finish. The best way to describe it is it looks opaque, but if you were to lay it flat on a newspaper you could read the words. I dying for it to arrive to see how it compares to very poorly, unevenly sprayed sample.
The plexi lowers the gain slightly but greatly improves the viewing cone and virtually eliminates hotspotting (at least on my small sample.
The skys the limit for what can go behind it. I'm starting with a piece of white tileboard. If not bright enough I will try white aluminum. But then there's gray aluminum, silver, mill, any of the shiny WilsonArt products (the metals look cool but $$$) silver wrapping paper and on and on and on. Anything with a high gain.

Once its here I will report in the other thread and when I figure out how to post a link I will put 1 here.
John
Have you or could you possibly try the translucent plexi over a grey or black background? I'm curious to know if the translucent layer would act to reflect the whites and colors and the black/grey backing allow the dark areas to show through.

The thinking here is that the top coat needs to be the layer that reflects whiotes and colors as that is what the projector light will hit first. Darks and blacks are producted when little or no light hits the screen so in those areas you want to have the background color show through the top layer. This way you have the benefit of a light colored reflecting surface with a dark colored non reflectiing backing.

The trouble I see with any grey or colored screen is that you are using a single surface to represent both the lights and darks. The only way to have good darks is to have a dark room or a dark screen as the screen colors will be the dark color. This then causes the whotes and light colors to get washed out as they need to reflect off a darker surface.

By having a reflective yet opaqu surface I tnk we ould handle both tosome degree.

I was considering using the white translucent plexiglass/polycarbonate as a test material over a grey or black background.

Another variation on this would be the top translucent layer, then a black translucent layer, such as window tinting, then a bottom reflective layer such as an aluminum sheet or first surface mirror. The bottom reflective layer would help punch up the lighted areas through the tinting film but the tint would still tone it down for the dark no to low light projected areas.
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post #18 of 22 Old 10-22-2006, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I am very interested in plexi testing, I'm glad someone has started to do some testing and experiment with it.

It's going to be interesting to see what develops out of this.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #19 of 22 Old 10-22-2006, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Well if this is right, here is a neutral gray. It may be a little dark, but not any darker than SS or some of the other mixes I've seen.

Munsell N8
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...Munsell_N8.jpg

Everything always seems to be one off... so close but not quite what we're looking for. If only RP Imaging made a gray in Munsell N9... this is a very nice looking color and shade.

Munsell N9
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...Munsell_N9.jpg

I really think something can be done with N8. It may look a little expensive by the gallon ($68 plus $12 shipping) but that breaks down to $20 a quart. Is that really that bad? I know people on here have spent way more than that in paints trying to create a neutral gray. We may have one though that everyone seems to be ingoring!

I'm doing a search now to see if anyone else carries this, there has to be other companies and maybe one close by. I found a company that carries Rosco paints, but I haven't had a chance to go check them out yet.

Like I said before, if N8 really is 202 202 202 then perhaps we should stop trying to invent a neutral gray and work with the one that exists. From there a top coat could be developed that adds gain, maybe some texture or retro-reflection properties... this could be very interesting to work with.

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post #20 of 22 Old 10-22-2006, 09:59 AM
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WB,
This could be a great find. As in the other thread, you may be able to turn this into a mirror finish and then put a piece of plexi over it to bring the gain up to 1.

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post #21 of 22 Old 10-22-2006, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I couldn't find anyone that sells the GTI Munsell N8 paint other than RP Imaging... however I did find out that GTI is located in Newburgh NY which is around an hour and a half away... I have military buddy that lives down there so sounds like a visit and field trip!

Okay here is how I am approaching this as far as neutral grays. A lot of time and money has been spent by people trying to develop a neutral gray. GTI may have something already, but it also may be more than what some want to pay, although I still feel it's not that much. I went through the database of all cataloged brands of paints and did comparisons to Munsell N8 and N9 and I found some matches that are very close... as close as we're going to get from a premix.

The following color matches have the Munsell color in the center and it is surrounded by the closest matches. To the left is a quick color summary of the Munsell color, then at the bottom is the closest matching color from that manufacturer along with a quick color summary of that color. If anyone wants to see more detailed data on any of the colors let me know and I can post that.

This data is 'supposed' to be accurate and spectro values provided by the manufacturers, but I am not going to give them a 100% at this point. What this does give us are some very close matches that can be narrowed down and like we did with the laminates then have the most interesting ones analyzed.

I have never heard of some of these paint companies so some potential matches can probably be weeded out due to unavailability for most people. If anyone on here is familiar with the companies please speak up with any information you have.

Here we go...

Munsell N8 will be first since we know RP Imaging sells a paint in this color and we now know who makes it.

Munsell N8/Dunn Edwards
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...unnEdwards.jpg

Munsell N8/Martin Senour
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...rtinSenour.jpg

Munsell N8/Sherwin Williams
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...inWilliams.jpg

Munsell N8/True Value
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1..._TrueValue.jpg


Next are some close matches to Munsell N9

Munsell N9/Brunning Paint
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...9_Brunning.jpg

Munsell N9/Caparol
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...N9_Caparol.jpg

Munsell N9/Colortrend (Take a close look at this one... this needs some further data for certain)
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...Colortrend.jpg

Munsell N9/Dunn Edwards
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...unnEdwards.jpg

Munsell N9/McCormick (Here is another one that deserves a closer look)
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1..._McCormick.jpg

Munsell N9/Sherwin Williams
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l1...inWilliams.jpg

There are two other companies but one looks like it is automotive paint, and I couldn't find anything on the other... they are Sikkens, and Sico.

If anyone is familiar with any of these brands (some are obviously well known names) let us know and we can thin this list down and then try to get some color analysis to cross check the above values. If the data the manufacturers provided is accurate, then we have some very interesting colors to start testing.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #22 of 22 Old 10-22-2006, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
WB,
This could be a great find. As in the other thread, you may be able to turn this into a mirror finish and then put a piece of plexi over it to bring the gain up to 1.
I love the laminates, but I do think there is potential for a hybrid screen that uses multiple methods.

The way I think is to look at what's been done already and see how they are doing it and go from there. The foundation is already laid, we just have to study it and then build on it...

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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