Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral... - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 602 Old 01-25-2007, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Find a different SW store through their store locator, and when you do complain... This guy knows less about paints and colors than I do. I'd not only ask for a new gallon but a refund as well because of the hassle. The worse they can say is no to the refund but they owe you the right paint.

I walked in the store ten minutes before it closed, found the color card on their wall, and he mixed it up. Duration Brand extra white matte base. There was nothing special or custom about it.

Wow if a dedicated paint store is this bad, I'd hate to see some of the people at the various Home Depots!

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post #362 of 602 Old 01-25-2007, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenyee View Post

Uh oh, colorimeter shopping is another rathole :-) It's going to be expensive finding one that can read colors and has a smaller error rate (e.g., the DeltaE on the Spyder2 high enough that the results are non-repeatable according to a review I found for it) :-P

I was assuming that the web site designers would have used a colorimeter to read all the swatches that they put on the paint web sites... :-(

The only site I have ever seen to include spectro/colorimeter data and RGB numbers is the site Smokey found and posted early on in this thread. I wish all companies did that...

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post #363 of 602 Old 01-25-2007, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bboy123 View Post

OK, I went to see mr. sherwin williams today. I took you numbers in (wbasset) he said "he must have used a different paint". I replied well if he used a different grade of paint wouldn't the color be the same? He said the overall color would result about the same but the way of getting there would be different. I used the Highest quality matte finish they offered I believe it was called "cashmire sp?" He ran 7071 thru the computer and tried different paints and they were all very similar to my numbers.

He offered to add some gold to bring down the blue push but said the result would move more to a green push, however, it would be a less noticible push than the blue? He also tore some dried paint off of my can and held it up to the swatch and he was very pleased (however, he was about 73) I still felt that my paint appeared more blue than the swatch. Last thing, Wbasset he asked when you had yours mixed I thought I remembered it to be around Nov. 2006? He said if that was true the only way you could have gotten those numbers from a 7071 is if the label read "SW 7071 Manual" meaning custom?

THanks for all of your guys help and research on the paint. I got my mitsu hd1000 today and shot the menu on it and it looked pretty good blacks were black and whites were white, maybe its not blue afterall?

Mine actually looks like a really ugly gray and is definitely not blue... let's put it this way, if my screen and a battleship were in a beauty contest for prettiest color I think the battleship would win...

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post #364 of 602 Old 01-25-2007, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy123 View Post

OK, I went to see mr. sherwin williams today. I took you numbers in (wbasset) he said "he must have used a different paint". I replied well if he used a different grade of paint wouldn't the color be the same? He said the overall color would result about the same but the way of getting there would be different. I used the Highest quality matte finish they offered I believe it was called "cashmire sp?" He ran 7071 thru the computer and tried different paints and they were all very similar to my numbers.

He offered to add some gold to bring down the blue push but said the result would move more to a green push, however, it would be a less noticible push than the blue? He also tore some dried paint off of my can and held it up to the swatch and he was very pleased (however, he was about 73) I still felt that my paint appeared more blue than the swatch. Last thing, Wbasset he asked when you had yours mixed I thought I remembered it to be around Nov. 2006? He said if that was true the only way you could have gotten those numbers from a 7071 is if the label read "SW 7071 Manual" meaning custom?

THanks for all of your guys help and research on the paint. I got my mitsu hd1000 today and shot the menu on it and it looked pretty good blacks were black and whites were white, maybe its not blue afterall?


Different bases can have different formulas to supposedly produce the same color, but I'd recommend sticking with the Matte finish. If they used Cashmere base, I believe it has a different gloss, which may not be good.

I'm with wbassett - find a different store!

Garry
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post #365 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy123 View Post

I recently painted my screen with SW 7071 Matte finish ($35). After the paint dried it looked blue to me, others have agreed. Wbasset originally posted the BYAC of;

BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

However, looking at my receipt the color was mixed as;


BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 16 - -
Y3-Deep Gold - 2 - -

could someone explain why a SW store would have this variation or why my screen is now blue. I am a n00b and I appologize for my ignorance.

I just had a gallon of SW7071 mixed yesterday using the Master Hide base white in Matte finish and my mix is different as well

BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 14 - 1
G2 New Green - - - 1
Y3 Deep Gold - - 1 1

I called them and the guy told me that it all depends on the base paint number which mine is B30WV5500. I painted it last night and it does not look blue, but rather more of a green. So which color mix has the more neutral RGB value ??
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post #366 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I honestly did not know they had this many different types of matte finish, I thought it was only the Duration brand. How can one paint company have so many matte finishes and other companies have none?

When you say green, is it an obvious green or does it look like a really ugly gray that looks slightly greenish to you? Gray is not the color we have all been acclimated to from paint stores, TV, magazines or any type of visual. A real neutral gray is actually an ugly color. That is why so many paint manufacturers add different colors to it, they want to make it more visually appealing so people will buy it. If you look at Behr's own website all of their grays are actually listed under what they call the 'Blue Neutral Family Range' and not the Gray Neutral Family... what they did was punch up the blue to make it a more pleasing color. Silver Screen is listed here and it has been shown over and over to have a blue push to it, which does correspond with its 'Family Line'.

I honestly can't say if you are seeing green because it is close to a neutral Munsell N8 gray, but seeing that they added green in your mix that is not a good sign. I am not going to publish the RGB values for Extra White because of some questions that arose, but if it is right, adding green is definitely not a good thing...

This has to be related to the different bases being used as to why there is such a variance in the color formulas. If I had known there were so many different matte finishes I would have specified the Duration brand in the Extra White Matte base... although if they are mixing it with the Duration matte base, they should automatically use Extra White because their computer should tell them that is the correct base paint. Still, seeing all the problems that have cropped up it's a good idea to watch what they grab.

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post #367 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 12:15 PM
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This is also the conclusion Tiddler and I came to in the other thread I started about mixing a neutral gray. One of the reasons we felt mixing vs. finding was a good route was because we could all use one brand of base white as a starting point. At that time the paints had no names just a mix.

Finding and cataloging them is still a great idea because it's building our knowledge of how this works without trying all the combinations ourselves.

The above discussion of yesterday when I said I felt the white base was playing a large role in this and not the lampblack. MM posted back how all the grays he and PB had made they tried to use no lampblack in the mixes for some reason. But any and all commercial grays I have seen all have lampblack as the major pigment then the tuning pigments. I still contend that the majority of what they tune is in the white base not the black being added to it. And these last few posts seem to support that idea.

The demands of a screen are much greater than that of painting a wall, but when you go to a paint store and they substitute a base and let the computer alter the mix. They then smear a drop on the white label on the can and eyeball the dried color to the card and sure it looks ok. And is close enough for a bathroom wall.

I told this story a while back but will again. My sister is a artist and wanted a wall paint matched but had thrown the can out. She took in a sample of the paint and they color matched it for her. When the paint was dispensing she yells at the guy and said he did it wrong. (She remembered the colors going in from before and none were right.) He mixed it and it came out so close you couldn't tell from the original. She's still talking about how that could be.


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post #368 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bud16415 View Post

This is also the conclusion Tiddler and I came to in the other thread I started about mixing a neutral gray. One of the reasons we felt mixing vs. finding was a good route was because we could all use one brand of base white as a starting point. At that time the paints had no names just a mix.

Bud when I was in the store the first time (not the 10 minute walk in and out when I bought it) I looked all through the store... unless I missed it the only matte finish I saw was the Duration brand. The display at the front of the store was for Duration.. the guy walked me straight to the Duration shelf... so I honestly did think it was one base and this surprised me as much as a few other recent events.

Has anyone successfully mixed one yet?

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post #369 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

I told this story a while back but will again. My sister is a artist and wanted a wall paint matched but had thrown the can out. She took in a sample of the paint and they color matched it for her. When the paint was dispensing she yells at the guy and said he did it wrong. (She remembered the colors going in from before and none were right.) He mixed it and it came out so close you couldn’t tell from the original. She’s still talking about how that could be.


I haven't been following this discussion, but my Datacolor software gives me or can give me five formulations. The pigments can vary in each formula, but still come to the same final color. I can even eliminate some pigments from my stock and it can still come up with a formula.

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post #370 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 07:19 PM
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........ahhhhh. But in the end, does "looking" the same mean they will perform the same?

Absolutely not.


There is more to what is in a Mix than meets the eye. Through all of this conjecture and suppositional thinking based on observed samples and the resulting figures obtained through spectral analysis, it must be remembered and considered that we are dealing with using a highly focused and concentrated beam of light hitting and with it being either reflected, or being both reflected and absorbed by a surface coated with a specific mixture of Pigments. How light reacts to any such medium is dependent on some pretty subtle, as well as not so subtle interactions between the balance of the components therein, any one or many of which might be grossly affected by how one arrives at a specific hue or layered application and thereby affects that point of interaction. What level of whatever pigment is mixed with whatever else to arrive at a tint, or which consistency of base is used as the mixing medium, all will make for a different situation, no matter how closely they seem to resemble each other when viewed simply as a "color".

What looks good on a COLOR chip will not always work as a screen paint. Or in the least, work as well as one might hope.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #371 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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conjecture and suppositional thinking? As opposed to?

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post #372 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 07:48 PM
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Now don't take any offense or think I'm making anything other than an obvious observation. Well, so it seems to me. You can call it a "IMO" if you like.

Everything done to ascertain if a particular hue is 'apparently' fit for consideration is necessary to separate the potential good from the "not so good'. That's certainly needed. But I was pointing out that getting to a particular point by changing up how one gets there can affect the end result. Thinking that a hue arrived at by a different mixing procedure will perform similarly as a identical looking hue obtained via a another route is most definitely suppositional reasoning. Most of you doing all the testing nowadays do not seem like those who would indulge in such, or at least not for very long.

The point is well made that some of the Gray Hues found here do what needs to be done quite well, and those are not what I'm referring to. I'm venturing a personal take on what I've seen before when trying different routes to the same destination, and sharing the end results; results that do not always pan out, even though conjective reasoning would seem to point to a better potential than what was achieved.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #373 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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You're point is very valid, no problem at all.

To me conjecture and suppositional would be "hey look at this color swatch and cool name.." and then no real checking into it's color balance or any of it's properties.

I do agree with what you said... the color may look the same but Extra White comes in at 240 241 235 . It may not have much of a green push, but it's up a point and with the blue down 5 that means there is a red/green lean to the white. Adding green even though the end result may look like the same mix I have, I doubt though it is going to perform the same.

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post #374 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 08:00 PM
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Remember folks, Its not just the paint that makes a difference here. We are all using these screens in an equal amount of different ambient lighting and atmosphere of each individual theater. All these must be taken into account when selecting/testing a specific paint for YOUR theater. That is the most important aspect IMHO. What looks grreat in my theater may look like crap in anothers simply because of the atmosphere.

I still have my original Behr SS screeen, and am happy with it. I see no blue push at all. The only thing I can atribute to this "phenomena" is that my theater has 2 recessed incandescent can lights (on dimmers) above the main seating area and a brown/tan mix carpet and walls. What I believe is happening is that the yellow lighting is combining with the browns, hitting my eyes, and canceling out the blue push of the SS mix (much like the introduction of gold pigment to a mix to cancel the blue push).

I'd be willing to bet if halogen lighting was used in it's place, the blue push would be accentuated. It's all a total experience, right? Taking the atmosphere of the theater out of the equation is like only changing brewing location in a beer recipe. Will it be good, probably, but you are going to get a different tasting beer. Every brewery has it's own "signature" that it silently adds to a brew. It could even be less if you didn't understand your own "signature" and make the appropraiate adjustments to compensate.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is screen design and selection cannot (and should not) be diluted to only focusing on the screen surface. You must understand and include the entire experience into the "mix". The sooner folks understand this aspect, the better and more enjoyable the experience. Eveything in moderation, and nothing to excess has a lot to be said here.

Think, "whole package" , you;ll be glad you did,=.


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post #375 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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bcortez, Bud had an interesting thing he reported on... he is set to D75 and has no problems with his mix. Some projectors may not be able to compensate as well as others, and I am wondering something else now too...

I wonder if some people that used SS may have gotten an alternate formula as well. It seems like a very common and possible thing that can and does happen...

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post #376 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 08:32 PM
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The variability in the mix is a huge issue, even w/ regular paints. I remember getting an extra can of paint from HD to match the other cans when we ran out. We went to this store 2-3 times (back when HD let you return paint) and they used the right formula for the swatch but the color was always pretty far off (visible to the naked eye). Our theory was their machine was miscalibrated, so we went to the same store we got the other cans from and it came out right. That's why it's important to use a spectrocolorimeter to measure what's on your wall vs. what's on the swatch if you want to see how accurate it was IMHO...

p.s., with printer profiling, even the paper brand/model and ink cartridges when you swap them affects your final output. Wouldn't it be really ugly if the primer coat underneath affected your final results too? :-)
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post #377 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcortez View Post

Remember folks, Its not just the paint that makes a difference here.
Think, "whole package" , you;ll be glad you did,=.


If I may I'll quote myself from my original thread I started on this subject 3/31/06 titled (A simple screen paint solution)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...25#post7407625

Also keep in mind there are 3 key factors that will dictate what gray will give you improvement. They are projector, screen size, and the room you are in.

Many time throughout that thread I mentioned that all 3 of these things had to be compared when taking advice or giving advice as to the simplest of paint mixes. I have read 100s if not 1000s of posts where someone is recommending a mix based around just one of the 3.

Are there just 3? As I now know there are more and each will have subtle influences but I stand by this one year old post that those are the major 3. projector and screen size are finite things. (Room) is the one that needs the most interpretation. Room consists of all the elements Bcortez listed above. Its no difference than a room having a sound signature it also changes how we see a image on the screen. there is a thread listed below in my signature where I talk about my latest project painting a wall and ceiling black above and in front of my screen. Doing such dramatically improved my PQ and I didn't touch the projector or the screen.

When prof55 posted the RGB data for a lampblack only gray about a month ago per my request and then placed the Lampblack only gray on the spectral graph and it showed it fell neutral at 7500k, it did dawn on me that I have ran almost from day one at 7500 on my 10X. We discussed that fact over on the other thread and it seemed to make perfect logic that matching the projectors color tem with that of the screen should be a form of correction. Then on another thread several members were doing actual calibrations and confirmation of what a projector really is doing vs. what the menu says it is in term of color temp and it was clear there is wide variance both between projectors and within projectors from posted to actual.

That thread from day one wasn't viewed or supported in the way I had hoped it would be. I wanted it to be a collection point for success stories in simple gray screens. But what I wanted to do was build a data base of information of the 3 items mentioned above in a attempt to shorten the learning curve for others. And also use that data base to explore more difficult subject matters as in the metallic paints etc. down the road. The most learned members here didn't want to assist in trying a incremental approach to this. The feeling I got was everyone wanted a one or two paint suit that covered all projectors, with all sized screens in all room settings. Many of the supportive types fell away from the notion.

As in many endeavors like this the method is split between science and black art. And I personally respect and have used both approaches to problem solving many times in my life. Both are valid tools IMO. All I wanted to do was when some success was achieved thru whatever method, catalog the effort. Not really much different that what wbassett is doing here.


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post #378 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

I haven't been following this discussion, but my Datacolor software gives me or can give me five formulations. The pigments can vary in each formula, but still come to the same final color. I can even eliminate some pigments from my stock and it can still come up with a formula.


Thanks for the info. I will pass it on.

Question for you ?????

Could you put a simple paint mix formula into your datacolor software for say a lampblack only gray say 0 22 0 LB per gallon white base. And give us some of the alternate mix formulas? And maybe one devoid of LB?


Bud

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post #379 of 602 Old 01-26-2007, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post

I haven't been following this discussion, but my Datacolor software gives me or can give me five formulations. The pigments can vary in each formula, but still come to the same final color. I can even eliminate some pigments from my stock and it can still come up with a formula.

Matchrite's retail mixing software (which is extremely common in paint stores) has the same option. In the maintenance menu, you can set any of the pigments to "out of stock" - and most of the time it will still give you a formula. If it's a drastic mismatch a warning pops up, but it has to be pretty far off for that to happen.

I don't know how often paint stores run out of a pigment, but this could explain some of the different formulas we've been seeing for the same color.

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post #380 of 602 Old 01-27-2007, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Now don't take any offense or think I'm making anything other than an obvious observation. Well, so it seems to me. You can call it a "IMO" if you like.

Everything done to ascertain if a particular hue is 'apparently' fit for consideration is necessary to separate the potential good from the "not so good'. That's certainly needed. But I was pointing out that getting to a particular point by changing up how one gets there can affect the end result. Thinking that a hue arrived at by a different mixing procedure will perform similarly as a identical looking hue obtained via a another route is most definitely suppositional reasoning. Most of you doing all the testing nowadays do not seem like those who would indulge in such, or at least not for very long.

The point is well made that some of the Gray Hues found here do what needs to be done quite well, and those are not what I'm referring to. I'm venturing a personal take on what I've seen before when trying different routes to the same destination, and sharing the end results; results that do not always pan out, even though conjective reasoning would seem to point to a better potential than what was achieved.

Good post.

I really have no problem with subjective and the tried and true method... if it works it doesn't matter as much about how it got there as much as how it performs-- but it is nice to have an idea as to why things were done the way they were and get a feel for any science or thought put into things. Now if claims are made, I do like to see some proof to back them up and not just an 'it is because I say it is' conjectural type of post. I'm not wanting or trying to slam ProjectorCentral by no means, but there are still some that recommend using bedsheets... we have come a long way since those days. Testing and measuring color values is an excellent tool that should go hand in hand with subjective methods. If a material, paint, mix, substrate or anything is found that really seems to perform well, it should get some further testing done on it. It only validates it more and may even show it is quite exceptional.

Going with things solely by a name is something I cringe at too. Now true, Gray Screen has a name that falls inline with what we like to hear, but I'll be right up front and say Winter Mountain is a better neutral, but GS is right up there with it. The reason I went with GS over WM was because I was really curious about the matte finish. There is a True Value in my home town less than five minutes away and WM would have been easier.

This thread was also more about neutrals and if they really work or not and if so how much better, if at all-- and yes they do show some definite advantages, especially with darker grays. Advanced mixes have their place and pro's and con's just like the single simple substrates, and these OTS methods. This is where the science behind things gives way to personal preference, and it is nice to see and know that people can go simple or advanced and get very good performing screens. People now have a choice that is also dependant on their skill level and patience.

Where I like the data and science approach is it does help to weed out methods and applications that will work, but not as well as others. We now have the tools to do this and it should not be a 'competition' or anything like that. Do not take offense at this, but even your mixes could go up a performance notch or two by using the data method, and that certainly is not a bad thing or a slam. If it is good now, with some tweaking that really can only come through getting down and dirty and looking at the whys and hows along with what has been proven to work could really tweak up things a lot... and I will say that is IMO

The archives are full of threads talking about neutral grays. Some people say they are hooey, others say they are the Holy Grail. I think they were deemed the Holy Grail of gray screens because nobody really could make one, or... even if they did there was no way to prove they had one. Now we can prove if a gray is neutral or not... and we do have them readily available.

So are they better? I would say go back and read my post on what I think about neutrals and balanced grays. There is no denying they both work, but leaving neutral there must be a lot of care taken in balancing the colors.

Neutrals allow us to go darker, but darker isn't always the answer and people need to keep that in mind too. There is a cut off and that is projector/lumen ability. There will come a day when digital projectors do not need grays. CRT's do not play in this sandbox with us because they don't need the contrast or black level help. Digital projectors do reign when it comes to brightness though, and with that comes the desire to turn on some lights or even open the blinds. The grays in here perform remarkably well with ambient light, but I still would not call them ambient light screens. It is a characteristic and benefit of using gray over white and I call them ambient friendly-- Bud actually coined that phrase and I really like it.

Here is an excellent chart to get an idea of how many lumens you need for screen size and lighting. There of course are other variables as well, but this is a good general guideline. They base it on a plain jane unity gain white screen so there is a little play and variables that come into play as compared to the chart.

There still is a question about mixes and even store paint formulas and how they perform. If a spectrophotometer or colorimeter sees it as a neutral or a well balanced color, then we can feel safe and comfortable that the projector will also see it as the same. I think talk about pigment binding, sub atomic molecular fusion time warping properties are interesting, but if the spectro sees it as a color value, so will the projector... I could be wrong on that but it will take some science to debate that and yes I am open to that . If though, anyone really wants an ISO standard and QA tested and assured neutral the only paint I found that meets this criteria is GTI's N8 and N9. They may not list it on their web site, but if you call them you can order either N8 or N9 ISO standard Munsell grays. Aside from spending $80 on the GTI paint, there are some excellent options in AVS and I would like to think that there are some in here that are also as neutral as we have been able to get...

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post #381 of 602 Old 01-27-2007, 08:45 AM
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........ahhhhh. But in the end, does "looking" the same mean they will perform the same?

Absolutely not.


There is more to what is in a Mix than meets the eye. Through all of this conjecture and suppositional thinking based on observed samples and the resulting figures obtained through spectral analysis, it must be remembered and considered that we are dealing with using a highly focused and concentrated beam of light hitting and with it being either reflected, or being both reflected and absorbed by a surface coated with a specific mixture of Pigments. How light reacts to any such medium is dependent on some pretty subtle, as well as not so subtle interactions between the balance of the components therein, any one or many of which might be grossly affected by how one arrives at a specific hue or layered application and thereby affects that point of interaction. What level of whatever pigment is mixed with whatever else to arrive at a tint, or which consistency of base is used as the mixing medium, all will make for a different situation, no matter how closely they seem to resemble each other when viewed simply as a "color".

What looks good on a COLOR chip will not always work as a screen paint. Or in the least, work as well as one might hope.

This was in reference to the sister's paint mix, so you would be wrong. In this link, you can see how different pigments can combine to create the same color. My software can use either four or five pigments, but I use four. If you would like to talk about UHP specific, then that is a different. That is dealing with metamerism. Again, my software computes for metamerism as well. Usually, the five formulas have a dE of under .1 and metamerism under .3. That being said most of the time there will be only a one pigment difference between formulas.


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Thanks for the info. I will pass it on.

Question for you ?????

Could you put a simple paint mix formula into your datacolor software for say a lampblack only gray say 0 22 0 LB per gallon white base. And give us some of the alternate mix formulas? And maybe one devoid of LB?

No, I think I need Color Tools for that. That piece of software costs $5k.

I have mentioned this before that Ace Hardwares are using Datacolor units. If you had a neutral gray card or like for them to measure, then they could come up with a formula for their paint. I have also mentioned that the fly in the ointment is pigment strength. Pigment strength can and does vary. A white and black mixed together can give different shades of gray depending on the relative strengths of each pigment. A large batch can mitigate this somewhat, but not entirely. The only way around this is to have consistent pigment strength from the manufacturer or measure pigment strength at the end user. If the former were to happen then standard formulas would be ok, but would never happen. If the latter, then you would not be able to have a standard formula. You could get accurate mixes from a card though. As a case in point, my pigments are SUPPOSED(highligted if my manufacturer is reading this) to be +/- 2%. If that is the case (which I doubt), then my first read is always around dE 2. I need to do a spray down correction to get to around .5. Most manufacturers can vary up to 20% or so I have been told. If it was me, then I would make sure Ace did a correction on any paint mix that I had them formulate.


WB,
As for CRTs not needing gray screens, I somewhat agree. I know Clarence has preached this, but a gray screen can help with a poor room and ambient light. Not every CRT owner is projecting into a dark theater. My room is less than ideal and even with the lights off could use the ANSI retaining benefits of a gray screen. I would prefer a unity gain gray screen though.

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post #382 of 602 Old 01-27-2007, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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WB,
As for CRTs not needing gray screens, I somewhat agree. I know Clarence has preached this, but a gray screen can help with a poor room and ambient light. Not every CRT owner is projecting into a dark theater. My room is less than ideal and even with the lights off could use the ANSI retaining benefits of a gray screen. I would prefer a unity gain gray screen though.

Yeah I am sure a crt owner could use a gray if they wanted to, but I have never heard of anyone doing it, they certainly don't need it for blacks.

When I had my 840pro years ago, I set it up just to see how big the image would be and to just play with my new toy... anyway I wasn't expecting much because the wall was peach color (we were renting so I couldn't change colors) I was totally surprised that I actually had a decent image. I ended up rigging a 120" diagonal screen using painters canvas on electrical conduit as my inner frame... came out pretty nice for my very first screen and this was back in the 90's before stumbling on AVS It never dawned on me to even think about gray, I always thought screens were white back then. I used that screen for a couple of years and thought I was the cat's meow

This is the wrong thread, but I did have some samples of the metal series laminates and some of them where a nice light silver gray look with a high sheen. It was toyed with and discussed very breifly about how they had the potential for a nice torus screen for a CRT... so who knows, could be someone somewhere using a light gray for CRT

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post #383 of 602 Old 01-28-2007, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Back to the neutrals... I am going to call True Value Monday and find out what is going on with Winter Mountain. It's listed under their TruColors collection. While I am at it I will call Sherwin Williams and find out why there are different formulas other than the reason Ericglo explained.

I can say if people are using a different base because of the $42 a gallon price of Duration brand that could be the difference right there. I cannot vouch for any base other than Duration and how the color balance will be.

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I can say if people are using a different base because of the $42 a gallon price of Duration brand that could be the difference right there. I cannot vouch for any base other than Duration and how the color balance will be.


$42.00 per gallon?


But if it takes that price level of Base to make it work, then that says much about how important using "The Right Stuff" can be. I've used that cheap 'ol Chalky, Talcum laden Behr paint fer a Coon's age with no complaints, so that suggests price is not everything.

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post #385 of 602 Old 01-28-2007, 08:51 AM
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Sure, $42 a gallon may seem high, but consider this: It only takes about a quart to do a screen, which leaves three quarts for other projects or experimentation. Better yet, you could use the extra to get a friend started in home theater...

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post #386 of 602 Old 01-28-2007, 09:08 AM
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Sure, $42 a gallon may seem high, but consider this: It only takes about a quart to do a screen, which leaves three quarts for other projects or experimentation. Better yet, you could use the extra to get a friend started in home theater... Garry

I've used that argument myself for some time to justify the expense of making everything from a gallon of simple MMud to a full gallons of Black Flame. Even so, most/many lament the "extra". But it was always handy to have when more than 1 person was doing a screen, as in a group effort.

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post #387 of 602 Old 01-28-2007, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tiddler View Post


A flat/matte neutral gray will beat RS-MaxxMudd or any of it derivatives hands down for ease of application as well as the odds that a novice screen painter could produce a good uniform screen surface with typical wall painting ability. Add a top coat of Behr Matte Polyurethane and the gap narrows considerably.

Well now.........., that last statement would remain to be seen. Posted figures alluding to such might help convince me though. But above all else, Poly Top Coats only help with some degree of gain boosting. Or sometimes it works to help attenuate too much reflection. Poly "within" the mix makes for better overall utilization of the light as it is both reflected and absorbed. And it makes the mixed ingredients flow smoothly.

Application issues with RS_MM lay with the desire to achieve as smooth a finish as possible. Leaving the mix thicker in consistency and using a higher nap roller eliminates most of all those concerns. I just would never do that myself.

That's enough about RS_MM however, it NOT being the topic here.

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If the sole goal is cheap then so be it. If you are even remotely suggesting that $42 is too much for a neutral that does perform then I have no idea even how to respond to that. Even paying that price a person can construct an outstanding screen and very nice border for well under $100.

I'm with you on this one wbassett! Let's see go to a paint store and order up a mix from them for $42. Or go runaround and waste $30 in gas gathering up $50 in paints from multiple locations - don't forget the stop or the $$ for the measuring cups/instruments and painting supplies (needed anyway)- and then spend a weekend mixing up a concoction and attempting a perfect roll.

MMan - I like ya, but that post was uncalled for.

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post #389 of 602 Old 01-28-2007, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Well now.........., that last statement would remain to be seen. Posted figures alluding to such might help convince me though. But above all else, Poly Top Coats only help with some degree of gain boosting. Or sometimes it works to help attenuate too much reflection. Poly "within" the mix makes for better overall utilization of the light as it is both reflected and absorbed. And it makes the mixed ingredients flow smoothly.

Application issues with RS_MM lay with the desire to achieve as smooth a finish as possible. Leaving the mix thicker in consistency and using a higher nap roller eliminates most of all those concerns. I just would never do that myself.

That's enough about RS_MM however, it NOT being the topic here.

You're right, this really is off topic in here. It may be good information, but it is really irrelevant for this particular thread.

Again as far as questioning the price, these are not ordinary grays like in the other threads. I have explored the 'V' curve and well balanced color aspect of screens, and this thread was and is about the benefits of neutrals. $42 for a D65 neutral in a matte finish that is easy to apply and performs extremely well is a bargain even if the price was just for a quart.

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"I can say if people are using a different base because of the $42 a gallon price of Duration brand that could be the difference right there. I cannot vouch for any base other than Duration and how the color balance will be."

I was definitely not trying to save a buck. Allow me to share my experience. I told the guy I wanted SW7071 in a matte finish. He said "that will be $18" I remembered that your's cost about $40 something so I questioned him. Then he said "what type of paint did you want" I said "well, I expected to spend more than $40 dolors for the gallon" He then replied "I can get you the cashmire for $35, it is our top of the line". I thought great! I am clueless about paint and I thought that by telling him that I wanted SW7071 in a matte finish then that was it! Thus the simple 1 can solution.

BTW I went back to the SW on Sat. and had him run the duration in SW7071 and your numbers were the same. I asked them about the vast difference and they blamed the base tint. I was about to buy the Duration and he offered me the gallon for $27 but then he talked me out of it stating that it will come out the exact same color as the Cashmire. What do you guys think? Should I go back and buy the Duration?
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