Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral... - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegreenturtle View Post

So are you saying that the poly doesn't introduce issues if the surface is not *perfectly* smooth? Mine is fairly good but not perfect, especially around the edges - I skim coated a wall and sanded. In some of my earlier experiments, including mixing pearl in, a rougher surface showed up if you had ingredients that increased gain. However my mixes included some metallics. My experience was that the flatter the paint, the rougher the surface you could paint on without issue.

I agree that a flat paint can hide some pretty bad blemishes.

An alternative to adding polyurethane would be to use a different sheen. The True Value interior paints come in an eggshell finish. They also have a new product "NEW! True Value WeatherAll® Aluminum & Vinyl Siding Paint" that has a low luster finish. That might be a good choice.

At one time there was lot of talk about UV damage to the screen color. An exterior paint is designed to handle UV better. It may last longer.
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post #542 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 02:01 PM
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Well, I already have the winter mist. So my choice is either to add something to it, put something over it, or do nothing. What would you recommend?

I don't understand why threads in this part of the forum get so personal and why there are so many egos and arguing. I am not sure if you guys who get caught up in it understand how infantile all the garbage on this forum - about what should be fairly straightforward knowledge sharing - looks to other people.

In any event, I appreciate all the good help that *is* offered here, and the wealth of knowledge, that is, although sometimes not easily, extracted.
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post #543 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 02:49 PM
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BGT: for your preferred screen size and using the vp4001 in its best mode i'd still be inclined to go with designer white laminate if i were you.

if you really want to boost the gain on the winter mist and you don't mind possibly having to repaint the screen then i'd actually go the whole honk from tiddlers trials and mix some pearl medium in with a clear matte poly base.

at the end of the day it's just time and a bit of paint so it can't hurt to try. it's only you that has to be satisfied at the end of the day, screw the rest of us!
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post #544 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbrnole View Post

BGT: for your preferred screen size and using the vp4001 in its best mode i'd still be inclined to go with designer white laminate if i were you.

if you really want to boost the gain on the winter mist and you don't mind possibly having to repaint the screen then i'd actually go the whole honk from tiddlers trials and mix some pearl medium in with a clear matte poly base.

at the end of the day it's just time and a bit of paint so it can't hurt to try. it's only you that has to be satisfied at the end of the day, screw the rest of us!

Exactly - thanks. I may check into the designer white.

And are you saying as a top coat for the whole honk or mix that all into the winter mist and repaint?
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post #545 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 07:00 PM
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no just as a top coat. tiddler combines 1 2oz bottle of folkart pearlizing medium with a quart of behr matte poly #780, stirs well and applies one or two coats of that over the already painted screen.

your winter mist wont be neutral anymore but it will be light to the point where it matters a little less. all in all though it's a $20 experiment, if you like it great and if you don't just repaint the screen or get some DW laminate.
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post #546 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 07:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegreenturtle View Post

Exactly - thanks. I may check into the designer white.

And are you saying as a top coat for the whole honk or mix that all into the winter mist and repaint?

If you go with DW, do not topcoat it with anything! You would ruin a perfectly neutral screen! And I would not add anything that would cause color shifts and iridescence to a screen that is darn near perfect neutral. Gain has been estimated to be at around 1.24 for DW .

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post #547 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

If you go with DW, do not topcoat it with anything! You would ruin a perfectly neutral screen! And I would not add anything that would cause color shifts and iridescence to a screen that is darn near perfect neutral. Gain has been estimated to be at around 1.24 for DW .

mech

I'm sure gbrnole was NOT suggesting top coating Designer White. He was however suggesting Designer White as an excellent alternative to do anything involving poly or pearl over the Winter Mist.

Absolutely! Don't put anything on top of a Designer White screen!

Thanks for making sure there was no confusion about that mech!
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post #548 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 07:50 PM
 
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Since this is open again I thought I'd explain the relation between metamerism and a neutral color. Yes there's more than gray! So much is always said about neutral grays that folks start to think that the only thing neutral is gray. Not true.

As to how it relates to metamerism... well it doesn't. Metamerism is how two colors look the same under one light source but completely different under a different. Neutral colors stay the same under relatively all light sources. You have to go to the extreme ends to notice anything similar to a metameristic shift. And there is nothing remotely similar to that in home theater projection.

A good example of metamerism would be pearlescent paint. It looks good from one angle and yet completely different from another. That would be geometric metamerism. It's one of the things that I've noticed during my latest trials utilizing pearl paints. There's a whole bunch of that info available on the web though. Just google it sometime.

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post #549 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 08:49 PM
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Exactly! A true neutral gray has a flat level Spectral Reflectance Curve and therefore reflects light equally for all wavelengths. So in fact a true neutral gray will be metamerism free.

A surface can actually have a Spectral Reflectance Curve that will result in equal RGB values under a given illumination such as D65. Due to fluctuations in the Spectral Reflectance Curve it may produce very unequal RGB values under a different illumination. That would result in metamerism. It would look like different colors under different illuminations.

Please explain how a "color" can be neutral?
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post #550 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 09:34 PM
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After googling the term Neutral Color I suggest the two words are technically contradictory. Neutral is the absence of color. Therefore a color cannot be neutral. A surface may not demonstrate "geometric metamerism" but like mech points out that has nothing to do with pigmentation.
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post #551 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 09:44 PM
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Here is a good description of "Metameric Failure" which is really what we are talking about.

The term illuminant metameric failure is sometimes used to describe situations where two material samples match when viewed under one light source but not another. Most types of fluorescent lights produce an irregular or peaky spectral emittance curve, so that two materials under fluorescent light might not match, even though they are a metameric match to an incandescent "white" light source with a nearly flat or smooth emittance curve. Material colors that match under one source will often appear different under the other.

Normally, material attributes such as translucency, gloss or surface texture are not considered in color matching. However geometric metameric failure can occur when two samples match when viewed from one angle, but then fail to match when viewed from a different angle. A common example is the color variation that appears in pearlescent auto finishes.

An interesting thing to keep in mind is that fluorescent lights produce RGB spikes that fall pretty close to the RGB wavelengths of projectors. If you are trying to compare two samples for use with projectors then the bright fluorescent lighting at Home Depot is actually a good thing.

It should also be kept in mind that while the effect that pearls may have on color as mech describes is a separate issue from neutral gray paint tints. Neutral gray is simply about color and best demonstrated with a spectral reflectance curve.
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post #552 of 602 Old 10-25-2007, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

Exactly! A true neutral gray has a flat level Spectral Reflectance Curve and therefore reflects light equally for all wavelengths. So in fact a true neutral gray will be metamerism free.

A surface can actually have a Spectral Reflectance Curve that will result in equal RGB values under a given illumination such as D65. Due to fluctuations in the Spectral Reflectance Curve it may produce very unequal RGB values under a different illumination. That would result in metamerism. It would look like different colors under different illuminations.

Does this mean that a black/umber/yellow pigmented gray might be more desirable than a red/green/blue pigmented gray, or doesn't it matter how the neutral gray is produced?

If this has been discussed before, please point me to the thread (or at least get me close ).
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post #553 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post

Does this mean that a black/umber/yellow pigmented gray might be more desirable than a red/green/blue pigmented gray, or doesn't it matter how the neutral gray is produced?

If this has been discussed before, please point me to the thread (or at least get me close ).

Be it somewhat fragmented here it is. post #111 sums up my thoughts.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719325


Bud

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post #554 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post

Does this mean that a black/umber/yellow pigmented gray might be more desirable than a red/green/blue pigmented gray, or doesn't it matter how the neutral gray is produced?

If this has been discussed before, please point me to the thread (or at least get me close ).

If you determine a tint that measure equal for red green blue under D65 illumination and do it using Thalo Blue, Thalo Green and Exterior Red. It would NOT be a true neutral gray. It may not even look gray! That is because the spectral reflectance curve would have a dip for yellow-orange wavelengths of light. This was the theory behind all the past RGB gray ambient light absorbing discussions. We're still stuck on neutral grays due to past technical difficulties.

The RGB tint should be revisited, but that's a different thread.
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post #555 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 06:04 AM
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I've been reading this thread and am painting a temp screen. Looking to do the topcoat and have bought the urethane but couldn't find the folkart pearlizing medium. I found another brand of pearlizing medium though. by reading the contents it looks the same. Have you tried any of the others?
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post #556 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 06:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post

Does this mean that a black/umber/yellow pigmented gray might be more desirable than a red/green/blue pigmented gray, or doesn't it matter how the neutral gray is produced?

If this has been discussed before, please point me to the thread (or at least get me close ).

As long as it's neutral it doesn't matter. I know of only one person (so far) who's made a neutral gray out of RGB. And I'm only guessing as I tested the panel but I wasn't told what it was. I've yet to test anything other than The True Value/Sherwin Williams and the test panel that have been neutral.

As for how it's made, who cares? As long as it gets you there. This is supposed to be simple. Not over-analyzed and difficult. Go to yahoo and type in "Neutral Grays and Simple Off the Shelf Solutions" in the search field.

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post #557 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 07:21 AM
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I think I saw that in the post. IF I get the metalic white pears should I still use 2 oz or do I need 4 oz in the mix.
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post #558 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 07:32 AM
 
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Someone has told me that there was a question regarding what are the neutral colors. Neutral Colors are black, white and gray.

Designer White is a neutral white.

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post #559 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcfarlandmj View Post

I think I saw that in the post. IF I get the metalic white pears should I still use 2 oz or do I need 4 oz in the mix.

This is really off topic for this thread Mcfarlandmj.

I will answer you questions more completely over in the EasyFlex thread.

I will delete all my posts from this thread regarding pearls. Could you do the same.
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post #560 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

Someone has told me that there was a question regarding what are the neutral colors. Neutral Colors are black, white and gray.

Designer White is a neutral white.

mech

I thought the whole point of a neutral is there is no color.

From what I recall Bill often refers to neutral shades of gray as being non-colors. In order to be a color the spectral reflectance curve would have to deviate from horizontal and flat. Then by definition it is no longer neutral. So I would think "neutral" and "color" are mutually exclusive terms. "Neutral" in this case is not to be confused with decorative paints often referred to as "neutral colors" by interior decorating folks.
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post #561 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 01:14 PM
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Well, I'm changing my shirt right now to go paint a top coat of behr poly with metalic white pearl top coat. Luck to me!
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post #562 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegreenturtle View Post

Well, I'm changing my shirt right now to go paint a top coat of behr poly with metalic white pearl top coat. Luck to me!

I hope you watched the application videos!
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post #563 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

I know of only one person (so far) who's made a neutral gray out of RGB. And I'm only guessing as I tested the panel but I wasn't told what it was.

If you were referring to little ole me...it wasn't RGB. It was silver metallic powder.

Meow.
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post #564 of 602 Old 10-26-2007, 04:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benven View Post

If you were referring to little ole me...it wasn't RGB. It was silver metallic powder.

I was!

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post #565 of 602 Old 10-27-2007, 04:46 PM
 
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I need to add a clarification. You cannot go into a Lowe's and ask for a Munsell N8 or a N9. Munsell is a color system. Not a color itself. It shouldn't be in the Matchrite software index.

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post #566 of 602 Old 10-27-2007, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

I need to add a clarification. You cannot go into a Lowe's and ask for a Munsell N8 or a N9. Munsell is a color system. Not a color itself. It shouldn't be in the Matchrite software index.

mech

Then go into Lowes and ask for any one of these:

Glidden (CIL) Neutral Grays:
  • 00NN 05/000 *A . . . "Dark Secret" (black border)
  • 00NN 37/000 W/B . . "Granite Gray"
  • 00NN 53/000 W/B . . "Veil"
  • 00NN 62/000 W/B . . "Universal Gray"
  • 00NN 72/000 W/B . . "Snow Field"



If you don't like Behr or Glidden then get the above pictured color cards for Glidden and take then to Lowes for a database RGB match or get them color matched by the in store spectrometer at any other paint store.


Near Neutral Name Brand Paints:

Pratt & Lambert Near Neutral Tints

161 166 164 - 2241 Carolina Gull

175 175 175 - N7

176 180 177 - 2240 Minnow
192 193 190 - 2239 Gigs' Grey
198 199 195 - 2310 Armory

202 202 202 - N8

197 200 200 - 2316 Hearthstone
213 213 208 - 2238 Winter's Gate
222 218 219 - 1120 Souvenir
223 225 223 - 2315 Doverfeather
223 225 220 - 2231 Hesperia
223 226 222 - 2327 Wraith

229 229 229 - N9

228 233 230 - 1285 Sky Cloud



Benjamin Moore Near Neutral Tints

Benjamin Moore Color Preview

171 168 166 - 2112-50 STORMY MONDAY

175 175 175 - N7

181 182 177 - HC-169 COVENTRY GRAY
196 200 200 - 2121-40 SILVER HALF DOLLAR

202 202 202 - N8

201 204 204 - 2134-60 WHITESTONE
201 203 205 - 2133-60 SIDEWALK GRAY
206 204 201 - 2112-60 CEMENT GRAY
214 218 220 - 2126-60 GRAY CLOUD
219 222 222 - 2121-50 ICED CUBE SILVER
220 222 222 - 2132-70 MINERAL ICE
220 223 224 - 2119-70 FULL MOON
223 224 223 - 2133-70 TUNDRA
223 223 225 - 2118-70 HEAVEN
223 225 224 - 2125-60 MARILYN'S DRESS
223 226 225 - 2134-70 GENESIS WHITE

229 229 229 - N9

230 232 231 - 2124-60 MISTY GRAY
232 229 230 - 2116-70 MIRAGE WHITE
231 233 231 - 2126-70 CHALK WHITE
236 237 235 - 2125-70 WEDDING VEIL
235 237 234 - 2121-60 WHITE DIAMOND
239 240 237 - 2124-70 DISTANT GRAY
241 242 238 - 2121-70 CHANTILLY LACE
239 243 239 - 2123-70 ICE MIST



True Value Trucolors

189 191 190 - 1981 WINTERS EVENING
200 201 201 - 1982 WINTER MOUNTAIN

202 202 202 - N8

216 218 216 - 1991 MIDTOWN GRAY
220 220 220 - 1983 WINTER MIST
217 220 219 - 2007 QUIET GRAY
221 222 222 - 1999 PEARL GRAY
220 224 222 - 1695 WINTER FROST
225 228 227 - 1984 CULTURED GRAY

229 229 229 - N9

226 230 230 - 1680 WHITE IVY
239 236 239 - 1624 SPOTWHITE
238 242 241 - 1464 MURMUR
243 244 239 - 67 SILVER PEARL


Sherwin Williams Near Neuytral Tints

165 167 163 - SW 7066 GRAY MATTERS

175 175 175 - N7

202 202 202 - N8

199 203 203 - SW 7071 GRAY SCREEN
204 205 202 - SW 7064 PASSIVE
205 203 206 - SW 6260 UNIQUE GRAY
215 218 218 - SW 6253 OLYMPUS WHITE
221 223 220 - SW 7070 SITE WHITE
221 224 224 - SW 6231 ROCK CANDY
224 224 223 - SW 6259 SPATIAL WHITE
227 227 229 - SW 6539 SOOTHING WHITE

229 229 229 - N9

229 230 227 - SW 6252 ICE CUBE
227 231 230 - SW 6518 SKI SLOPE
227 231 232 - SW 6525 RARIFIED AIR
237 237 231 - SW 7005 PURE WHITE
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post #567 of 602 Old 10-28-2007, 08:51 AM
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Here are some more near neutral tints:
SICO Near Neutral Tints

175 175 175 - N7

181 186 185 - 4208-31 ABSTRACT GREY
183 183 179 - 4203-31 WARM GREY
187 185 189 - 4186-31 HALF-TONE
187 188 190 - 4209-31 OLD PEWTER
181 186 183 - 4206-31 SMOKED NICKEL

202 202 202 - N8

202 203 204 - 4209-21 SILVER REFLECTION
207 207 203 - 4203-21 GREY WOLF
210 208 209 - 4186-21 FASHION GREY
206 210 206 - 4206-21 SILVERY MOON
209 212 210 - 4208-21 SILVER SHORES
209 212 213 - 4210-21 QUIET GREY
221 222 221 - 4209-11 PELICAN
227 227 229 - 4185-11 VIOLET VEIL

229 229 229 - N9

227 229 226 - 4208-11 SNOWFIELD
230 231 229 - 4210-11 EARLY FROST




Laura Ashley Near Neutral Tints

198 196 194 - 1614 STERLING

202 202 202 - N8

203 198 204 - 1514 SPRING LILAC
219 218 218 - 1513 WINTER WIND
224 221 219 - 1512 WHITE CLAY
220 223 222 - 1613 GRAY MORNING
224 226 224 - 1609 NARCISSUS

229 229 229 - N9

230 233 233 - 1509 STEAM WHITE
225 227 226 - 1510 PEARL ASH
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post #568 of 602 Old 10-28-2007, 09:24 AM
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I had no idea there were so many near neutral tints already known to people. There were more paint brands available to select in the Easy RGB database, so I tried to select the brands that are most familiar to people here in North America. There are also brands from all over the world. In addition to that the ICI Paints neutral shades are available through their international brands.
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post #569 of 602 Old 10-28-2007, 01:04 PM
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For those who would like to look for themselves you can follow this link to the EasyRGB Color Matching page. From the "Select acolor collection..." drop down menu select a brand you are interested in. Enter the RGB numbers that correspond to the Munsell neutral shade you are interested in. Hit the "Match" button and you will be presented with the 4 closest matches.

Look for a tint with an RGB spread of 4 points or less.

202 202 202 == N8 {fairly dark}
229 229 229 == N9 {lighter gray}

This basically what I have already done for some of the more familiar brand names but if you would prefer to sift through the possibilities or see how the color compare than by all means give it a try.
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post #570 of 602 Old 10-28-2007, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

For those who would like to look for themselves you can follow this link to the EasyRGB Color Matching page. From the "Select acolor collection..." drop down menu select a brand you are interested in. Enter the RGB numbers that correspond to the Munsell neutral shade you are interested in. Hit the "Match" button and you will be presented with the 4 closest matches.

Look for a tint with an RGB spread of 4 points or less.

202 202 202 == N8 {fairly dark}
229 229 229 == N8 {lighter gray}

This basically what I have already done for some of the more familiar brand names but if you would prefer to sift through the possibilities or see how the color compare than by all means give it a try.

N9 for 229 you mean.
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