Grays- Simple one can paints, and one very neutral... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 06:13 AM
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wbassett, that looks pretty good. What were your steps? I know you put down a base coat of Gray Screen. Did you mix anything in with it? Did you put a top coat over it?
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post #92 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Topher View Post

wbassett, that looks pretty good. What were your steps? I know you put down a base coat of Gray Screen. Did you mix anything in with it? Did you put a top coat over it?

No steps, this is just two coats of Sherwin William's Gray Screen in the matte finish.

I got the clears for some top coating experiments and test, but I haven't used them yet.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #93 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 07:04 AM
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So the paint is called Sherwin William's (Gray Screen) SW7071 I think you posted earlier.

Can you fill me in on what's in the mix as far as pigments? I know it's a off the shelf paint and close to a neutral Munsell. I know you have posted before but could you refresh me as to what projector and screen size and if you have a guess as to how many lumens you are at now?

The images look great that you have posted. Do you feel the gray is helping in ambient light as compared to white? How do you feel black level performance has improved?


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post #94 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

So the paint is called Sherwin William's (Gray Screen) SW7071 I think you posted earlier.

Can you fill me in on what's in the mix as far as pigments? I know it's a off the shelf paint and close to a neutral Munsell. I know you have posted before but could you refresh me as to what projector and screen size and if you have a guess as to how many lumens you are at now?

The images look great that you have posted. Do you feel the gray is helping in ambient light as compared to white? How do you feel black level performance has improved?

Yes it is Sherwin Williams Gray Screen SW7071
BAC Colorant 02 32 64 128
B1-Black - 20 1 -
Y3-Deep Gold - 5 - 1

RGB is 199 203 203 Munsell N8 is 202 202 202

There is actually a closer match, True Value's Winter Mountain at 200 201 201, and even though there is a True Value in my town, I was really curious about the matte finish that Sherwin Williams has.

The screen size is 54x96, the projector is a Sharp Sharp PG-C30XU. It's rated at 1700 lumens, but it's less than that with this setup-- reversing the fL formula (Lumens/screen size in square feet = fL) comes out to 972 lumens. Since the calculators always err on the side of manufacturers specs, I'd guess 850-900 lumens tops.

Right now this is the only daytime shot I have right now. I know it's not a movie image, but I'll get some of those up in the next few days. Keep in mind this picture was taken while the paint was still wet. The screen dried darker than the wet color.


Blacks are absolutely black. Like you have stated with your screen, there is no need for a masking system with this color any my projector.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #95 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 09:23 AM
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Wbassett

My guess is that gray is different than mine but is also close to the same as mine if you look at just the darkness factor of the paint and not its closeness to true neutral. My guess would also be that with us both having the same size screens and both using XGA 4:3 projectors cropping to 54x96 I'm most likely 10 to 30% higher in lumens running in eco mode. My CR is higher and that might be why the same or close shade of gray is working well for both of us. And I bet you are seeing a much improved PQ over the SS.

Having had a lot of time thinking about the small changes the grays make when pushed just a little off color it stands to reason the brighter the color and the lighter the color along with does the push hurt or help the color look better, its in the classic light skin tones it would show itself first if the push was blue.

It's a hard thing to relate this whole gray thing. But when you realize the whites you are seeing are still white it makes the blacks seem so much blacker.

This shade is a little darker maybe than I would have thought would work for you, but it seems good and I know you are thinking .Hmmm maybe I could go a little more dark I know because I'm always thinking that but I think you are also thinking about that poly/ paint top coat now

By the way the wet paint ambient shot is looking pretty good. Can't wait to see some with dry paint.


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post #96 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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This is going to be long, just a warning.

There always seems to be an ongoing debate about gray. Either about its ambient properties, or that it takes more than gray to make an ambient light screen, or it kills whites and makes images look muddy to it is the best type of screen a person could have. So who's right and who's wrong? Everybody and nobody.

A lot depends on a person's personal tastes and what they like. Gray undeniably helps with black levels and contrast for projectors with less than stellar contrast ratios. It is also better with lighting in a room and can deal with ambient light better than a white screen can. I still do not feel this makes it a true ambient light screen, but as stated by others I agree it is better than a white screen and more appropriately should be called ambient light friendly.

The debate about grays is still roaring on. I find it interesting that for the most part everyone is saying the same thing but arguing different points. To me the debate breaks down to not whether gray is good or bad, but what gray should be used. Some have even said that grays are a passing thing and back in 2003 it was said by one person that
Quote:


Grey screens as you may recall were introduced at least in a large part, to enhance the sorry CR most digital projectors suffer from. That's changing. The low CR high lumen projectors of yesterday are giving way to designs much more suited for home theater.

I feel a member of your talents is spending a great deal of time and effort on something that will be behind us in a year or two. Let's face it, no one would had ever given grey so much a thought if the blacks looked right on white screens. Ever been to a film cinema where they project on a grey screen?
What I'm saying in a nutshell: grey is a dying horse. I would enjoy seeing your talents focus elsewhere. Even I, one time defender of the grey, ME in particular, see the handwriting on the wall. Thanks for listening.

(This was not a quote towards me since my talents are limited)

Hence the saying Never say never', and dealing with absolutes is always a touchy area as well. It is now the end of 2006; three years after that statement and grays are still very much in demand. Commercial screen companies have not dropped them; in fact they have increased the number of gray screens as well as enhanced their performance. The big question though is WHICH gray?

I find it interesting that neutral gray is viewed by some as the Holy Grail of gray screens. This has been debated for a long time now. Some have gone back and forth in this debate, stating neutral is the way to go and then later questioning why the importance of a neutral. I have questioned this myself since manufactured screens are not completely neutral. If you look at the color curve once the spectrophotometer values are converted to RGB, most have a distinctive V' curve. So the question is why would they do this? Here are some explanations I got: (And thank you Prof for providing this explanation)

1. They did it on purpose- so the screen will look good even if the projector is off a little. A red or blue push doesn't look too bad, but a green push kills skin tone- and this is how many people judge image quality.

2. They did it accidentally- when gray came into popularity, they just used the most common standard, which is illuminant C (6774K). Many commercial grays are almost exactly on for illuminant C, but there are some that are not

3. They did it cause their cheap- Variation is much less important this way and pigments aren't as critical.

So I asked the question if commercial screen companies aren't concerned about their gray's being neutral, should we? That's like the opening statement about who's right and who's wrong yes we should be concerned, yet no we shouldn't but both of those answers have a reason in my opinion.

If we look at what I call the V' curve for most commercial screens, we see they are green deficient, but usually the red and blue components are relatively balanced. There are instances where there is a slight blue push, or a slight red one, (or a slight deficiency). A slight' push in either of these colors can actually be beneficial in some instances. A slight red deficiency could help some with incandescent lighting since it leans in that direction, while a slight blue push can make whites appear whiter' (another color conditioning we all have had since we were born). The trick and key is knowing when the push is too much.

A few years ago DIY was dealing with these questions and ideas, but for the most part there was no data. The spectrophotometer tests that have been done recently, as well as the converting of that data to RGB values has done a lot in the way of understanding commercial screens as well as now knowing the color composition of DIY methods. RGB is widely debated by some as being useless when discussing screens. I disagree. It's hard for the average person to understand CIE data and looking at those numbers isn't easy for someone not used to what they mean to determine if a color is pushing to hard one way or another. RGB makes it easy to quickly see the color curve. If the V' is in line with typical commercial screens, then yes that color would most likely make a nice screen- as long as the color itself isn't some wild off the wall color. If it is a white or gray then I would have no problem using it as a screen.

So I just completely contradicted myself when it comes to neutral grays? Not really. Even though it was just stated and shown that commercial screens tend to have a slight green deficiency, that doesn't mean a neutral color is bad just that the commercial companies strive for the best image across the widest range of projectors AND consumers tastes. As stated earlier, green can push hard even with the slightest increase in RGB value. Most people only do basic calibrations. This way the commercial screen looks good out of the box to most users and projectors.

Seeing color is a sensation, like hearing, taste, or smell. Sensations are not felt the same way by every person. Food tastes differently to each person. In the same way, there is no absolute color that is inherently seen the same way by every person. Nor is every person's vision the same. This is where neutrals come into play.

Neutral gray will eliminate/reduce color contamination from reflected light. Even though slight variances in screen composition and colors will work fine, a neutral palate is the best at reflecting the colors back the most accurately.

Also different light sources affect the colors that you see. For instance, a color viewed under fluorescent light will look radically different when viewed under incandescent light. Fluorescent light adds green to colors while incandescent light adds red. (This is why a slight red deficiency in screen color can be helpful with incandescent lighting)

A front projection Home Theater system consists of several devices that all deal with color at some level, and in different ways. Projectors deal with colors being created by light, and the screen deals with colors being reflected by pigments. Because all of these components in the system handle color in different ways, color reproduction between them is not so obvious. They use different color models, have different color gamuts and different Gammas. Moreover their colors are influenced by calibration settings and environment. Again neutral colored screens reflect the light from the projector with the least amount of color skewing.

What really sold me was when I went from a bright white screen like Designer White to the SW 7071 Gray Screen. I haven't done a full blown calibration yet, but in the quick setup I did I found that the more neutral the gray, the less color adjustment is needed. In my case and with my quick setup I did not touch the color settings at all between the two screen colors, only the brightness and contrast levels. I do feel the picture will be even better after a full calibration, but my point is with other grays I DID have to make some drastic adjustments to the color.

I am not abandoning any previous research and testing I have done. I think both can coexist as long as the V' curve isn't radically pushed by the red or blue components it will work just fine. Neutral grays however will allow us to go darker with fewer color problems than if the gray is not neutral and meant to be an aesthetically pleasing color as a wall paint.

Many people have been searching for neutral grays for a long time now. It's not that they didn't know what they were looking for; it has more to do with technology and more readily available data. Now we can actually see spectro data and the RGB breakdown of colors where a couple of years ago that type of data didn't exist in here, at least not from what I have seen. Now that we found neutral grays, it's kind of ironic that the discussion is pulling away from them and suggesting non-neutrals. Both will definitely work, and like I said earlier, everyone's tastes are different. I think one benefit of a neutral gray besides allowing us to explore darker shades, is that since the color skew is at its minimum; once the screen is calibrated it stands a better chance of being pleasing to a wider group of people. I know when I finally found a compromise' with one gray paint I used, it still wasn't optimal. Even though I probably could have gotten used to the color shift, anyone else walking in for the first time would most likely see it was off since they were not adjusted' to the screen themselves. To me that is a bad screen. People should not be told Well you'll get used to it' there should be no reason to.

I'd like to think what I just wrote will not be taken as anything personal by anyone since it was not meant that way. I have done a lot of research recently into colors and specifically grays. These are my findings and how I feel about gray for projector screens I am by no means saying this thread is the definitive thread about neutral grays, or that everyone should drop what they have now in favor of them. I do however feel that neutrals have been found. My efforts now will be in the area of texture and top coatings, I have no desire to create a new mix or mix a new gray that area is already covered by some very talented people.

(I will add some graphs and charts later on after work to hopefully make this a more enjoyable read...)

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #97 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Wbassett

My guess is that gray is different than mine but is also close to the same as mine if you look at just the darkness factor of the paint and not its closeness to true neutral. My guess would also be that with us both having the same size screens and both using XGA 4:3 projectors cropping to 54x96 I'm most likely 10 to 30% higher in lumens running in eco mode. My CR is higher and that might be why the same or close shade of gray is working well for both of us. And I bet you are seeing a much improved PQ over the SS.

Having had a lot of time thinking about the small changes the grays make when pushed just a little off color it stands to reason the brighter the color and the lighter the color along with does the push hurt or help the color look better, its in the classic light skin tones it would show itself first if the push was blue.

It's a hard thing to relate this whole gray thing. But when you realize the whites you are seeing are still white it makes the blacks seem so much blacker.

This shade is a little darker maybe than I would have thought would work for you, but it seems good and I know you are thinking .Hmmm maybe I could go a little more dark I know because I'm always thinking that but I think you are also thinking about that poly/ paint top coat now

By the way the wet paint ambient shot is looking pretty good. Can't wait to see some with dry paint.

Yeah that thought is always there... but the reason I would try a darker color would be for testing purposes, same as what this screen is. I needed to understand grays better before working on top coatings for some of the laminates. I do feel though that the experiments I plan may improve this test screen as well. If it does then maybe this thread will also have been helpful for people looking for simple one can paint solutions... and that is all I am trying to do as far as this thread... show that there are some very nice yet very simple alternatives.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #98 of 602 Old 11-15-2006, 06:32 PM
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I dont care if you were obducted by little grey men and you are trying to find an outlet for it -- thats ok, go with it !

I am convinced and you havent finished your experiment yet. I will be going up to the store this weekend or next and getting a can.

Thanks
Patrick

PS -- did they hurt you!
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post #99 of 602 Old 11-16-2006, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Mckowen View Post

I dont care if you were obducted by little grey men and you are trying to find an outlet for it -- thats ok, go with it !

I am convinced and you havent finished your experiment yet. I will be going up to the store this weekend or next and getting a can.

Thanks
Patrick

PS -- did they hurt you!

Never had a run in with the little guys

What projector are you using? I'm hitting this with a decent amount of lumens and fL at the screen... so keep that in mind.

As far as obsession, it was more of a statement and backing up what and why I am trying to do as far as this thread. It started going in the direction of mixes and non-neutrals and that wasn't the intent of this thread at all... there are hundreds of threads on those topics... a few on neutral grays, but none really about off the shelf true neutrals with supporting data.

As far as the 'Greys'... well if those little guys ever do visit me you can bet your butt I'm not going to ask about paint... I'll go straight for the Holodeck entertainment system!

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #100 of 602 Old 11-16-2006, 03:56 PM
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"What projector are you using? I'm hitting this with a decent amount of lumens and fL at the screen... so keep that in mind."


I will be getting a Panny PT-AX100U - good contrast (6000:1) and lots of light (2000) -- I love to watch SF so I am looking for anything that will enhance those dark scenes as much as possible.

Patrick
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post #101 of 602 Old 11-16-2006, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Definitely not going to have a problem with the lumens!

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #102 of 602 Old 11-17-2006, 04:15 PM
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wb -- whats the status -- so far 2 coats -- when are you going to put the clear coat.

Regards
Patrick
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post #103 of 602 Old 11-20-2006, 12:35 PM
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Bill - any new screenshots?

Garry
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post #104 of 602 Old 11-22-2006, 07:49 PM
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yeah Bill, more...more...
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post #105 of 602 Old 11-22-2006, 10:56 PM
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Better post some more screenshots, Bill. The crowd is getting unruly...
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post #106 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 05:10 AM
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Good to have you back Mate -- looking forward to seeing some more shots.

Patrick
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post #107 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 05:26 PM
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hi

Looks great -- I am 70% for this method and 30% for BOC --- I have not seen to many pics of BOC if any at all -- memory failure!

Watching Harry Potter on the new panny -- ax100 --- pic is on the wall with builders off white paint -- looks great -- cant imagine how fantastic it would look with your grey.

Later Patrick
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post #108 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 05:41 PM
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Mighty fine shots, Bill. I think this proves that the right gray can do very good things, even with fairly high ambient light.
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post #109 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 07:52 PM
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I do see a lot of green cast in your images. Im working on something right now, and the forums wont let me post any links until i have 5 posts under my belt, this being number 5 I should be able to help with the color cast on your pics
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post #110 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 07:54 PM
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Wow! I really like how this came out. Im looking at getting a projector, probably the Mit HD1000U due to teh 1500 lu and price. Painting a screen is what I will have to do to keep the costs down. Thanks for all the hard work and constant updates!

I do a lot of photography and noticed your pics did have a green tint to them. This is more than likely a white balance issue. Since I dont know anything about your camera, the only way I could help out is removing the green tint from your pics. I used one of the pic with the gray scale and went off that. You should try Adobe Lightroom, its in beta now and free. Under the develop tab you can choose your eye dropper on the right and click the nuetral gray square in the pic, then apply them to the rest of your images.
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post #111 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

That's why I said first thing the camera is adding that, it's not in the images on the screen.

If you know what manual camera settings work best let me know. One setting I get a greenish hue, a different one it's blue... and one comes out orange, so its my camera.


I downloaded the manual for your camera. If you set your camera in manual mode then the white balance to "warm white" fluorescent lamps, that should cure the green tint. Yellow/orange cast comes from shooting under incandescent lightbulbs, so set it to "shooting in incandescent light". Shooting during the day with your windows open, I would try the shade setting first then the daylight. Shade may warm up the photo too much so just experiment.

Keep changing the white balance until you find the right one.

If your using a tripod then I would set your aperture priority to F8 for max depth of field so your images are sharp. Go ahead and leave your sharpness to normal unless you feel they are too soft. I assume your pausing the movie then taking the picture so the speed of the shutter shouldn't matter. I would also try setting your camera's ISO to 100 if it will let you, that will help with noise and sharpness as well.
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post #112 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 10:19 PM
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idf_reuben,

Please take no offense, but I hope your advice to wbasett makes his camera catch the correct colors better than yours seems to have done. That's some severe boosting of reds going on in that LeeLoo shot, and there is almost no detail normally seen.

However, all the advice you gave wbasset was sound and true.

The Grey is contributing to the "green push', and it's a well known consequence. It shows up enhanced and amplified in photographs. What might seem perfectly normal when viewed in person is shown to be "less than normal' under the camera's eye.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #113 of 602 Old 11-25-2006, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

idf_reuben,

Please take no offense, but I hope your advice to wbasett makes his camera catch the correct colors better than yours seems to have done. That's some severe boosting of reds going on in that LeeLoo shot, and there is almost no detail normally seen.

However, all the advice you gave wbasset was sound and true.


haha none taken. I actually didn't take the picture I posted but rather just attempted a quick removal of the green tint from his screenshot

I don't have a PJ yet so I dont have first hand experience of how it should really be done, just a best guess on how I would do it.

Great information in your post though
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post #114 of 602 Old 11-26-2006, 06:54 AM
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Yes, and all I was relating was that if one HAS to alter the camera's setting to obtain such detail when a grey surface is employed, then the problem lies with the amount of light coming off the screen in the first place. Too much....washout. Too little, loss of detail. Loss of detail also happens with washing out to

That and how Grey will/must be a factor in such representations.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #115 of 602 Old 11-26-2006, 08:50 AM
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Bill:

I just caught up on all the pics.

Excellent work, and we all appreciate the efforts you are putting forth.
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post #116 of 602 Old 11-26-2006, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay here are some more pictures now that the screen has had a solid week to dry. I made a quick border for it as well (my DW screen was just tacked up, I am working on a frame where I can load test panels and am still designing that one)

First let me start with a request for help. If anyone has a FinePix S3100 that can help me with my manual settings (or anyone that knows digital cams) PM me please, or better yet post any setup in the standards thread-- That will keep this thread from getting way off topic. I bought a tripod and that fixed my blurry images. I have tried every setting I can think of, but obviously there is a certain combination of settings I need and I still don't have the camera portion down yet.

That isn't a copout or making excuses. I am getting nice camera images, but they aren't anywhere near as good as the screen looks in person. I just want to get the best pictures that I can get. (In bright white scenes, they are white on the screen, but my camera is adding either a blue or green tint depending on what settings I pick)

To start here are a couple of shots with the screen now 'dressed' with a temp. border. I started taking pictures today around 2:30PM. I took this from the doorway to my second living room looking in from the hallway, that way I could include a window to give an idea of what time of day it is and the brightness in the room.


The first set of pictures are some colorbars and gradient bars. It is still the same time of day, but the camera is making it look darker in the room, and that is where I need assistance. These pictures were taken within minutes of the first one, so there has been no change in the light from outside coming into the room. In fact I actually opened the blinds to try and make it brighter in the room.


Same color bar, but from the doorway leading to the second living room. I intentionally included the window to show how much light is coming in.


This is from the second living room at approximately a 45 degree angle and around 22 feet away.


Here is a gradient scale, same time of day.


From the doorway with showing the window.


...and from the second living room... in this shot you can see one of the far right windows of the bay window. This is really the angle that kills my screen. The light coming in is very close to the screen and 'glances' off the screen at a 50-70 degree angle. As it can be seen from this picture, there is no problems with brightness from this screen at this time of day.


The good ole Dolby Digital logo (it's off center because I didn't wait and paused too soon). I actually turned on my 36" CRT set for this picture to try to give an idea of brightness as compared to a normal TV.


Before taking any movie shots, this time I am going to change my gama setting ON THE PROJECTOR. I do not see in anyway how that can be manipulating the screen image since it falls more in line with projector calibration. I will then list all settings and the exact chapter and frame the image was from.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #117 of 602 Old 11-26-2006, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I am going to reshoot the live action screens after going through a full gama setting. I did notice a huge difference in detail level between settings. Some movies actually look better on one setting than another. To me that is more of how the movie was filmed (some use very different film stocks) as well as some DVDs are not mastered as good as others. If I see that with a particular DVD, I will mention there was a gama change, but that will be the only setting I will 'alter'. If at all possible I would prefer two gama settings and that's it: 1 for daytime viewing, and one for night time viewing. The screen definitely was not 'green' when viewed in person.

One point to mention, even a couple of frames differnce can really change the look of a scene. I have seen scenes where the shadows change in as few as a few frames. So as pointed out there is another variable added in. Screen shots to me are eye candy. They can't be used as a sole reason for picking one screen over another, but they can at least give a ball park idea how a screen performs. For instance the shots I did repost are from around 3:00 3:30PM and my room is completely flooded with light. I think the image is amazingly bright and vivid under those conditions. You can actually read the THX text from the hallway and that is clearly shown in the pictures.

Without screen shots, that only leaves data. That can be pretty boring though. So screen shots at least give a general idea of what is being presented. Together they make for a much more rounded review. I really wish I knew someone that lived close that has a completely different projector. I would love to test different projectors out on the same screen and have a comparison like that.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #118 of 602 Old 11-27-2006, 07:03 AM
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wbassett,

First let me say bravo. I have been following the work that you and Tiddler have been doing. It looks like you are both finding solutions that the average Joe can put up with limited muss or fuss. I like it. I have been meaning to paint a board or two for comparison for about 9 months now, and haven't. I can't justify the time it would take when I consider I could be sitting on my duff enjoying me theater instead. With these solutions, that excuse is starting to wear a bit thin. Also, my nieghbor has decided to paint a Goo/Digital Grey screen. Once he has his completed I'll paint some test panels and do some comparisons of the various mixes. That is worth spending a bit of time on.

Secondly, in the Dolby Digital picture with the CRT below ... are the colors between the two that stark (Yellow vs. gold) or are you seeing something different?

GL


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post #119 of 602 Old 11-27-2006, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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There is a slight difference but not as much as in the picture. Both look gold, but the CRT leans more towards a copper/brass tone. They are being fed by the same DVD player, but they projector is using component and the TV only has SVideo connected right now.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #120 of 602 Old 11-28-2006, 04:56 PM
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Hi folks, back from the wilderness......to go forward I had to step back. I was getting lost in thoughts about grey screens and which would be better, noone was coming up with positive proof apart from conjecture. A few where posting screenies, which help, but still prove very little.

So I knew my grey screen(lamp black in white) was causing me problems.
I have DVE, and dispite retuning over and over the same issues arise.
A green bluish haze in some dark scenes.

So before I could paint a new screen I needed to know what is causing the issues.

So I needed a measurement device...better than my dodgy eyes. I needed a calibration tool.

So I built one....in the true sense of DIY, a DIY calibration tool. WIfey disaproval on 100 and climbing.....

anywhoo, what you see here is the proof that a grey screen with a slight blue edge caused by the basic white and lamp black can cause a blue shift in the resulting reflection.
RBG balance has a blue shift.
Although I set this with the DVE, color adjustment sets the Blue point saturation in the CIE chart, then tint adjustment swings Green and red into balance.
But because blue is pushed color setpoint of saturation is skewed leaving green oversaturated and overall color balance out.
In the CIE chart you see the grey scale dots all push up towards higher k values because the RBG balance is in the blue.



Using DVE now with a blue pushed screen I would push the color to slightly over saturated so as to balance green blue, swing the tint, red green the best one can do and then drop the Blue and Green individual brightness.

Basically what this is telling me is the screen needs to be very balanced and not too skewed, unless I was developing a screen to absolutely match a projector which itself was deficient in one color, ie red.

btw for those interested to make a DIY calibration probe and matching software is linked in the calibration part of the forums, under Free software.

Quite frankly, those who have test equipment here have an advantage in truely finding out how good the total result turns out.

I have now proved to myself that mixing too many paints, ie RBG or adding colors to push can lead to all sorts of problems.

Colors have to be balanced throughout the grey scale, they must return a normalized saturation, ie the CIE triangle.

Conclusion. You must have a balanced screen.

Masterpiece Calibration Ltd
Christchurch NZ
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