Breakthrough in ambient light rejecting screen - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movielvr2006 View Post

i believe Bud has demonstrated a few points:
  1. people get pretty crazy when someone posts something controversial. everyone needs to settle down in that respect. have some fun!
  2. people aren't always asking the right questions when they analyze or give advice, screen size should have been the first question asked.
  3. a dark screen may be the perfect fit for some situations.
  4. Bud has a good sense of humor, perhaps a bit twisted, but good .
  5. Bud may deny it, but he has tricked us on the fine Halloween Day!

now to continue with item 3, i have been using this very concept for about 2 months now. I have a neutral gray screen with gain in the area of 0.47 to 0.50. However I only run a 55"-60" screen with about 500 available lumens. Whites are not crushed, black levels are of course excellent. My screen is a painted screen using flat latex only. that's it, simple. just taking advantage of the simplicity of the science and i'm happy with what i have for now.

i'll admit however, this is not the solution for someone who doesn't have a high output projector, or who wants a large screen.

oh, and Bud, i'm glad you all let us have some fun today. good job.


Well maybe there was a 10% effort at having a Trick or Treat.

And perhaps as the thread evolved maybe another 10% psychologically experiment.

I do want to wish everyone a Happy Halloween and be careful with the little ones running about tonight when driving.

As to item 4 on your list I resemble that remark.

I do have to give Movielvr2006 some credit for me trying this. Something he posted in a thread the other day got me thinking.

If I needed a projector for a high ambient light environment and say I bought 3 Sharp XR10X projectors at $800 per I would have $2400 invested in a system that could put out 6000 lumens. And I'm willing to bet I could fill a 150 inch screen that has been grayed down to a very ambient tolerant level. Something like a .4 gain dark neutral gray.

It would be interesting to see how such a setup would compare with a $2400 high CR projector on the best high gain ambient screen.
But that's the topic for another thread. And I'll let someone else try that.


Bud

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post #62 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 01:35 PM
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I knew I was close.

Had I read into your posts a little better, I.E. realized that you said Michael's and not JoAnn's, I would have guessed a different material. But same concept though.....

I think I need to stay away from JoAnn's for a while and decompress...

Rob

ÂThe sheriff and his buddies with their samurai swords.....Â
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post #63 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 01:37 PM
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I enjoyed the puzzle, bud

Brian W
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post #64 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 02:02 PM
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Nice demonstration.

So one could conclude that if you have a perfectly neutral surface as a shade of grey, even neutral black, when the ratio of lumens gets high enough above the absorbsion value(with black generally being between 10~20% reflectivity) we would see a bright picture without color distortion because the reflected colors are coming off a neutral.

I suspect though, because it is very hard to get absolutely neutral, as some have already proved there is a color shift towards the offending color. The higher the lumens ratio though the less the noticeable effect, until the neutral becomes a color. But the color shift will always be there by the same amount as the color is off the central balance.

There must be a shift of contrast ratio though, otherwise you would not see better blacks. If it didn't grey or dark screens wouldn't work at all.
The question is, how far can one go. I suspect we could place a lux value on this so each person could measure and have some values to work with as a starting point.

That is, given lux value at the screen surface(direct from PJ)( which contains any ambient light lux) + shade of grey and reflectiveness of the screen surface = reflective lux - ambient light lux.

Something like that anyway.

It will all depend on lux ratio's.

I'm going to attempt to prove some of this to myself with a DIY HCFR colormeter I'm in the process of building.

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post #65 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 02:05 PM
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Now try and figure out how many lumens you would need for this to work with a 100 inch screen and a 12 foot throw?

This just doesnt appear to be doable in a real world environment, not now or in the near future.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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post #66 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biglyle View Post

Now try and figure out how many lumens you would need for this to work with a 100 inch screen and a 12 foot throw?

This just doesnt appear to be doable in a real world environment, not now or in the near future.

about 2500 lumens assuming the following:
  1. a very dark gray screen with gain around 0.25 to 0.28
  2. 16:9 screen at 100" diagonal
  3. a matte surface with 180 deg viewing cone, no metallics needed
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post #67 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 03:20 PM
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A Christie 20K will do 500fL on an 87" diagonal 16:9 screen, so this would be an excellent choice for your new creation.

Use it without a screen, and the neighbors may be able to watch the show in reverse on your siding.

Better yet, try a 50" screen with a 3 foot throw - 1500fL! Might have a burn-in problem on the wall, though.

Garry
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post #68 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 04:06 PM
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Thanks for wasting 10 minutes of my life. Where do I send the bill, Bud? Not all of us have time to waste on silly games.
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post #69 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 05:19 PM
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At least it was only 10 minutes Lindahl... some threads that promise actual mixes or methods drone on for weeks like this and in the end nothing anyway! So 10 minutes wasn't too bad...

I think the whole reason behind this was Bud was trying to make a point and not say black construction paper is the way to go

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #70 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 05:39 PM
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Pretty entertaining, Bud. I've gone pretty dark gray, but wouldn't have expected total black to give any whites. Good and worthy experiment that logic would not have compelled me to try.
Since I started experimenting with mica flakes a few years ago I've found I can go much darker in the gray for ambient light absorption while letting the mica flakes help boost the light - from a normal pj distance and screen size. Would have never guessed whites would even appear close to white with a black surface. Pretty cool.
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post #71 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 05:47 PM
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If you shine enough light at anything short of a black hole, it will return "white". It's just a matter of having enough light left after absorption.
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post #72 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55 View Post

If you shine enough light at anything short of a black hole, it will return "white". It's just a matter of having enough light left after absorption.

So Prof this may not be too dark then?

What kind of lumen output would you say for a shade this dark? 2000 lumens? Any guesses as to the lower limit of CR as well?

Reason I ask is I am getting a gallon of this very soon to play with

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #73 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 06:02 PM
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At 202/202/202, that's not really very dark, Bill.

High Contrast Cinema Vision measures 201/196/205, and 11/48 lampblack in 1qt UPW is 201/198/213.
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post #74 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 06:09 PM
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I didn't think it was either, but it seems to be to a lot of people.

Sorry Bud didn't mean to hi-jack your thread!

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #75 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Highside
Thanks for sitting in and enjoying the challenge. You wouldn't believe the stores I have been in that I thought I would never hang out in. but if when you walk in JoAnn's and they look up and go Hey Highside it might be time to give it a rest.

Rabbi7
Thanks for the input. And I don't think I want to know where the nickname came from in college.

Smokey Joe
Thanks for the input. I think you are exactly on track. And you are right pure neutral anything is hard to get too. Lucky thing for us all these projectors come with some calibration. So in terms of neutral there is always going to be a plus or minus. But we do have to get in the ball park.
No one needs 180 degree viewing cone that's why in my case I did the sheen study and gained a little of the light back I lost with the addition of black on my current screen. The other proven method to date is the addition of metallic. And or a combination of both. The unplowed ground for me still is texture and its effect on all this.
If I do a texture experiment I'll remember to not be so dramatic.
Keep us posted as I know you will with whatever direction your mind takes you. Remember this is fun, that's why we do it.

Biglyle
What can I say.
I'm going to relate a true story. I graduated high school in 1972 and that year I used to play chess against my calculus teacher every day in study hall. One day I mentioned to him after seeing a demonstration at PSU where they had something called a computer. They feed a deck of IBM cards into this machine a stack about 6 inches high and the computer was able to play tic-tac-toe against you by printing out a new sheet of paper for each move you made. I told this teacher after seeing this that someday I think a computer will play chess against a human. I then got a 30 minute oration on how that could never happen and how ridicules I was to even think such a silly thing. He said my God it would have to do well over a million calculations to make a single move.
I'm glad I didn't mention someday they might make projectors that bounce light off millions of microscopic mirrors timed just right with a color wheel to produce a trillion colors on a screen.
The near future is so close to the way out future these days I would never say never.

Movielvr2006
I don't know about you but I'm going to take a few nights eat popcorn and catch up on some DVD's
Thanks for the input as always.

Proff55
That's why we need to start a stainless steel siding company and forget about all these paints.

Lindahl
Nice to meet you also. I haven't read any of your posts but I'll try and catch up on them.
I'm assuming the 10 wasted minutes was reading time. By my last calculation I think I have invested several hundred hours reading about who should be allowed to post and who shouldn't.
But send me a PM with a address or a paypal account and I'll reimburse you for the 10 minutes.

Wbassett
I hope I didn't spoil your breakfast this morning.
Keep going with the laminate stuff you are on to some good things there.
Not that I'm into predicting things but if I had to predict something it's that someone is going to make a killer curved screen out of this stuff. And its going to be the next big I have to have one screen.
This thread is free to hijack anyway you like.

Mn3kgtvr4
I'll never forget that namelol
Good stuff keep with it.


Bud

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post #76 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 06:22 PM
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Didn't spoil my breakfast... wasn't sure if this was a launch into something commercial is all lol

Actually I found that neutral gray really isn't that hard to find, and when I say neutral I mean honest to god neutral! (as far as laminates, I love them, but shhh, I've made more painted screens than laminate screens, and I'm still playing around with both as screens )

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #77 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 07:11 PM
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I would have "thunk" this thread more suited to April Fools Day rather than Halloween...
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post #78 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 08:49 PM
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I actually think this thread has a lot of useful information:

- in the presence of ambient light, the darkness of the screen screen dictates the black level

- the brightness of the projector dictates the white level

- if there's enough light, white can be produced on a literally black screen

- 'brightness' (by that I mean FtL) can be increased by reducing screen size

- the final image quality is a series of tradeoffs of all of the above.

These may seem like obvious statements, but they tend to get lost with all the hoopla about latest and greatest paint mixes. Screenshots seem to especially stir up a lot of excitement, as they did in this thread.

For those that are starting from scratch and looking for a projector and screen combination for ambient light conditions, these things are alot easier to control from the beginning than mixing/rolling/spraying an exotic paint mixture, and will take you a long way towards something that will satisfy you.
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post #79 of 112 Old 10-31-2006, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilsiu View Post

I actually think this thread has a lot of useful information:

- in the presence of ambient light, the darkness of the screen screen dictates the black level

- the brightness of the projector dictates the white level

- if there's enough light, white can be produced on a literally black screen

- 'brightness' (by that I mean FtL) can be increased by reducing screen size

- the final image quality is a series of tradeoffs of all of the above.

These may seem like obvious statements, but they tend to get lost with all the hoopla about latest and greatest paint mixes. Screenshots seem to especially stir up a lot of excitement, as they did in this thread.

For those that are starting from scratch and looking for a projector and screen combination for ambient light conditions, these things are alot easier to control from the beginning than mixing/rolling/spraying an exotic paint mixture, and will take you a long way towards something that will satisfy you.


May be so, but what are the practical applications to what bud16415 showed us?
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post #80 of 112 Old 11-01-2006, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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FremontRich
Sure I made the thread a bit more fun than it had to be, but please try and understand I did so with the intent to illustrate a item of science that has been discussed before but I don't think has been widely understood. The proof of that is the questions people asked and what they thought was going on. And it wasn't just a bunch of first time posters new to projection but was read by a wide cross section of people here. When I first put the thread up the other night I thought by morning I would have a post from movielvr2006 or tiddler or proff55 saying nice try bud it looks like a black screen from 3 feet to me.
When I saw people getting interested (and being interested is learning) I thought let the questions go. I had about 6 PM's to answer before I ever got my coffee and they all had a positive note and seemed to like quizzing me.
When I do a April fools spoof trust me it will be much more involved..

There are many practical applications to this and it's a matter of degree. The thread I started a long time ago is linked in my signature below. It began as a study into neutral gray and what I found worked in my specific case and how others could build on that idea and methodology.
Its been my long standing belief that if a person has any extra lumens in their overall system a very real improvement can be seen by going to the slightest shades of gray. Doing that along with some of the other light boosting ideas is a strong path for people wanting to experiment with this. Its not the only path but its one that IMO still has a lot of work to be done.

That was my real intent of this thread was to build some enthusiasm in some of the new members and let them know it's ok to experiment and feel free to throw new ideas out on the table. Quite honestly I came here just looking for a paint mix or a place to buy some paint from. And I'm sure there are some that wish I would have bought some GOO and left.
But this is just too much fun to have done that.

Ilsiu
I couldn't have said it any better.
When I first started my experimentations into DIY I was a strong supporter of neutral gray and utmost simplicity. And that still is a very strong position I hold. But I'm a hard sell and I have found virtues in many other more complex solutions. There are some solutions I'm still out on. And others I'm leaning strongly against. But I believe in keeping a open mind until such time I find a way of convincing myself if something works or not.


Bud

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post #81 of 112 Old 11-01-2006, 06:11 AM
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Bud,

You're certainly entitled to have a little fun here and I recognized that something was up when you were so secretive with the details, especially when you were so adamant that your "breakthrough" wasn't a trick.

But I just wanted to dampen the giggles just a little and voice my concern that this DIY Screen section has been in a downward spiral for a while and finding practical information here has become more and more difficult.

The other forums have a tendency to build a larger and larger useful knowledge base as the number of posts increase, but DIY Screens seems to get more and more cluttered by endless over-hyped "breakthroughs" and DIY approaches that somehow must become too good to disclose for free so they evolve into secretive marketing schemes.

I sympathize with anyone who just bought their first projector and comes to this forum seeking a practical, affordable DIY screen. They've got a lot of chaff to sort through. Trying to filter out the hype and unbalanced comparisons is part of the fun for those of us who come here weekly for year after year, but for someone who just pops in, this type of post typifies the clutter that they have to fight against when seeking "details on how you can construct a similar screen"....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

...so superior to anything I have seen to date...

I had to take some screen shots and post them for the group to view...

First let me explain the lighting conditions in my room...

The pictures were taken hand held and with cam set to auto...

The screen was larger than the image and the black masking...

The projector is my Sharp XR10X...

I post these photos to show the deep black levels that are possible with this new DIY screen under the most severe ambient conditions...

Notice while keeping these rich dark blacks I'm able to maintain colors fairly good and even whites are not to far off....

Below are the screen shots. Please keep in mind the extreme ambient light levels when critiquing them.

I do have some pictures of the screen under room lights with projector off if anyone would like to see them, or details on how you can construct a similar screen.

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post #82 of 112 Old 11-01-2006, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Bud,

You're certainly entitled to have a little fun here and I recognized that something was up when you were so secretive with the details, especially when you were so adamant that your "breakthrough" wasn't a trick.

But I just wanted to dampen the giggles just a little and voice my concern that this DIY Screen section has been in a downward spiral for a while and finding practical information here has become more and more difficult.

The other forums have a tendency to build a larger and larger useful knowledge base as the number of posts increase, but DIY Screens seems to get more and more cluttered by endless over-hyped "breakthroughs" and DIY approaches that somehow must become too good to disclose for free so they evolve into secretive marketing schemes.

I sympathize with anyone who just bought their first projector and comes to this forum seeking a practical, affordable DIY screen. They've got a lot of chaff to sort through. Trying to filter out the hype and unbalanced comparisons is part of the fun for those of us who come here weekly for year after year, but for someone who just pops in, this type of post typifies the clutter that they have to fight against when seeking "details on how you can construct a similar screen"....


Clarence

I agree there are two distinct groups of people that come to this forum.

The Light Bending Alchemists as Tiddler coined them.
And the fellow like me that didn't have a clue surfed in here and was looking for an addy to buy some Goo. But I didn't know Goo was the name then because my sister saw it on a tv show and forgot the name. So that will give you an idea of my starting point.

I read a lot and posted a little asking questions and doing simple screen experiments. I latched on to a few things that worked out for me and I did something that maybe .001% of the people do that come here. I started 3 threads not all at once. (they are listed in my signature) the first was a thread asking advice and explaining what I learned by following that advice. It dealt with the use of poly. (no grandstanding) the second and third dealt with the screen I built from the knowledge gained here. One being the mechanical aspect of a large framed screen. (a how to thread) and the other the methodology of my screen paint and application) I titled that thread a a simple screen paint it was what I came here looking for and my thought was put it out there for someone like me coming here to at least read and maybe save them some steps and time and money. When that thread was started I actually had high hopes some moderator would go Ya know that would make a great sticky thread because that's where newbie's should be looking first. That's where I went first. Well that never happened and unlike a lot of thread authors I never felt the need to give it a gentle bump every 3 months. I did do one other thing not everyone does and that is I kept a photo essay of humble basement media room and the process I went thru building it on a shoestring. It's easy to do a photo essay on the 50k home theater with all new construction. It's a bit more humbling to show off your 1k total effort. That page has had over 80,000 views to date. I have received 100s of PMs asking advice and many wanting to relate how something they read saved them time or gave them a great looking image to watch.

So I do know the confusion people coming here face and have tried to help make this a better place.

As for the items you copied into your post that I first stated. They are and were all true statements. In a court of law we are asked to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Those are 3 totally different things. In my case I did the first and the last. The whole truth was the tease and I think most people got that within the first few posts. You may have not noticed I changed the title of the thread yesterday to (Maybe?) and if you want I can edit the first post to warn newcomers the post may contain more carrot than stick. Or in the interest of cleaning up DIY I can remove the whole thread.

There are several threads I fear a newcomer wandering into actually. The greats thread Tiddler has going about experimentation into RGB paints with all the spectral charts and graphs. I honestly have to say if that would have been in my first days reading here I would have ran for the hills. Also the several dozen threads that always fill the top spaces on the chart that are 10% fact and 90% is someone trying to convince us that someone else is selling a commercial product subliminally to us thru something they write. That element even crept into this thread a few times.

So let me know if you want me to remove the thread. If there is no substance worth keeping in this endeavor I have no problem removing it.


Bud

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post #83 of 112 Old 11-01-2006, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Opening post edited


Bud

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post #84 of 112 Old 11-01-2006, 10:50 AM
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I will never get back the time i spent reading all 3 pages.
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post #85 of 112 Old 11-01-2006, 01:20 PM
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I wouldn't worry about the time ninok5, time is a construct so we know when something has moved. It's mostly an ilusion.

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post #86 of 112 Old 11-01-2006, 01:26 PM
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"

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post #87 of 112 Old 11-02-2006, 03:27 PM
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Nothing new with the knowledge of black screen bud. All have been trying to copy the great black screens of the past now for years.

My beliefs still hold true that I think the next "big" DIY thing will be in the use of layered films... one day maybe I will enough time and resources ($) to continue working on this theory.

Take care.
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post #88 of 112 Old 11-02-2006, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gwrieger View Post

Nothing new with the knowledge of black screen bud. All have been trying to copy the great black screens of the past now for years.

My beliefs still hold true that I think the next "big" DIY thing will be in the use of layered films... one day maybe I will enough time and resources ($) to continue working on this theory.

Take care.

Gwrieger

I hope no one thinks I'm laying claim to inventing the concept of projecting to a black screen. I personally haven't seen it done but then again I only view black as a very dark version of a neutral gray. So I guess you could say we have all seen that done.

Everyone is looking for some magic to come out of DIY and IMO and having done a lifetime of creative thinking those magic moments are few and far between.

It's interesting to note when this thread was an unknown still, how excited people were to unravel it. But once the simplicity was unveiled and it was apparent it was something that would work but did so in a different manner than what was hoped, the discussion stopped for the most part.

I wish gwrieger would tell us more about the great black screens of the past I Googled that term and didn't find a hit. Are these screens something that were made and then never to be recreated again. Is that the all that are working on this.

As to films and a break thru in DIY you could be right. It's too bad you are short on time and cash to pursue these ideas. That's pretty much my problem also on a lot of things I would like to do.


I did have a little spare time tonight and I took the mini black screen and hung it in front of my full size screen in the way of a test screen. No macro trick or treat this time. I then set my projector on full power and added in the light boost and then maxed the brightness. I was heard to say I'm givin her all I got captin and I don't know how long I can hold her together.

Any guesses on what the image looked like with the XR10X throwing to black from 14 feet this time? Oh and lights out.
My cam was in the truck or I would have posted pics. I will try and get those shots up before the weekend.

Lets just say I think BigLyle might be a bit surprised.


Bud

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post #89 of 112 Old 11-02-2006, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post

I wouldn't worry about the time ninok5, time is a construct so we know when something has moved. It's mostly an ilusion.


Not too many people know this but time travel into the future has been successfully done.


Bud

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post #90 of 112 Old 11-02-2006, 08:28 PM
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If you aren't shocked by quantum physics you don't understand it.

Light behaves differently when being watched. There are several proofs of this.

We cannot detect light or sound without a medium so we only ever see and hear the world as a reflection.

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