Silver Fire mix - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1426 Old 06-24-2009, 01:55 PM
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how 'bout some ambient light shots?

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post #542 of 1426 Old 06-24-2009, 06:33 PM
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That WAS an ambient light shot, (just zoomed in) Here are 2 others enjoy!http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/30552
http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/30551
Don't know if they'll show up, but I'm working on a photo bucket account (gotta give-em your cell # dunno?
Thanks, Steve

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post #543 of 1426 Old 07-12-2009, 04:59 PM
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Hi Guys,

Great thread! I have a few questions. My HT is currently under construction, scheduled to be done in a couple of weeks. See my sig for details.

I have a Epson 6500UB projector, it going to be mounted about 15.5 ft away, throwing a 115" diagonal 16/9. So which SilverFire recipe is best for me?

I plan to paint my screen directly on the primed drywall. Does the standard recipe handle this well? Also, I can't find the Wagner Control Spray in Canada anywhere, so spraying is not an option (plus, I am leery of spraying right on the wall in my basement), thus I plan to roll. Much of the thread talks about spraying which requires a more watery paint, so I assume it would need to be thicker if I am rolling. Am I right? How do you modify the recipe for this?

I went to Michaels today (I'm in Canada). I was excited to see that they had almost everything I'd need for Silver Fire. However, they did not have (and do not carry) Liquitex Basics Cadmium Yellow Deep Hue. They have medium hue and light hue, as well as "Yellow Oxide" but not Deep Hue. I assume there is no effective substitution? I am guessing not, but thought I'd ask.

They did have Liquitex Heavy Body in Cadmium Yellow Deep Hue, but its in the small metal toothpaste style tube. Is there a measurement substitution if I use this instead? I assume this is the thicker "nightmare to mix" stuff like from the old recipe. Can it be used?

In total, the recipe makes 3.25 quarts, correct? I zipped through the thread fairly fast, so at risk of asking a question that's already answered, how many coats can you get out of that volume on a 115" diagonal screen? Could I, for example, cut the recipe down by one third? Some of these paints are getting expensive in the volumes needed, turning SF into an expensive experiment for me (I am up to CAN $150 just in the paints, not including primer).

Until this thread, my plan was to go with Kilz2 and Behr Silverscreen, but I am excited about the custom formula discussed here (and appreciative of the exhaustive efforts).

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post #544 of 1426 Old 07-12-2009, 07:05 PM
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Cadium Yellow Medium Hue is fine.

Use 2 oz of colorant for your SF mix. The 6500 can handle that shade with ease.

Don't try to reduce the Mix. Always better to have more left than come up short, and besides it's easier to measure things in a larger sized mix.

It's daytime here now, so I'll post up more for you later.

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post #545 of 1426 Old 07-12-2009, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Cadium Yellow Medium Hue is fine.

So whats the trade off between the Med and Deep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Use 2 oz of colorant for your SF mix. The 6500 can handle that shade with ease.

So that would be a Silver Fire Lite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Don't try to reduce the Mix. Always better to have more left than come up short, and besides it's easier to measure things in a larger sized mix.

It's daytime here now, so I'll post up more for you later.

Okay, thanks for the input so far. I appreciate it.

Are there any "one stop shopping" US Internet sources for this stuff? I have a US address I could possibly ship to. Mostly its the Delta, Folk Art, and Liquitex stuff that seems pricey (for the volumes), so if I could order them online from one place, that would be an option. The Behr and Minwax I can get from a local no problem. I've emailed a few Canadian Etailers, but looking at their online catalogs, there wasn't one that carried all of it.

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post #546 of 1426 Old 07-12-2009, 09:50 PM
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I don't have access to the info myself where I am, but a PM to pb_maxxx can get you taken care of in no time.

GO GET 'EM!

ps........, You might try Dick Blick Art Supplies online.

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post #547 of 1426 Old 07-12-2009, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1canuck2 View Post

So whats the trade off between the Med and Deep?

You have to use a bit more of the Medium to effect the same results as the Deep, that's about it. PB can fill you in on exactly how much more to add.

Quote:


So that would be a Silver Fire Lite?

2 oz is SF-Lite. The 6500 has great Dynamic Contrast, and a really good Native Contrast Ratio as well, so you don't have to utilize as dark a shade as other less well versed in Contrast PJs would have to have to obtain deeper Black levels.


Quote:


Okay, thanks for the input so far. I appreciate it.

Saw right.

Get onto contacting PB_ Maxxx asap.

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post #548 of 1426 Old 07-12-2009, 10:09 PM
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FYI, I have been reading further and am now also considering this formula:
Quote:


MMud SE

UPW (1 Quart)
Delta White Pearlescent 16 Oz
Delta Silver Metallic 4 oz.
16 oz Poly may be matte poly.

Delta at Michaels and Behr UPW at Sherman Williams.

OR

RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light)
16 oz. Delta Pearl Metallic #02601
14 oz. Delta Silver Metallic #02603
7 oz. UPW
3 oz. Delta Pale Metallic Gold #02624
14 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin finish
10 oz. distilled/tap water

Since either will be well cheaper, easier to roll since I have no sprayer, and all available locally. Either of these would still be a big step up from just Behr Silverscreen, right?

BTW, why get the Behr formula from SW? Is the Behr UPW itself not as good? I am a Benjamin Moore paint fan myself (for regular house painting). Do you have them in the US? I have used their "ulti-matte" paint throughout my house. Its a matte paint that is formulated to be as hard as an eggshell, but still be matte finish. I had actually considered having the Behr Silverscreen made up by them in ulti-matte base, but then I am off on my own path...
Here's the info on it:
http://www.benjaminmoore.ca/products/ulti.aspx
Here's the marketing spiel:
Quote:


"From its luxuriously smooth texture to its pure, deep rich colour, free from reflection and glare, the new Benjamin Moore Collection Ulti-Matte Enamel makes any room look flat-out spectacular! Ulti-Matte Enamel paint gives you:

A finish that actually enhances colour—true colour rendering in the beauty of a matte (flat) finish

The exceptional performance your want—durability, wahsability and burnish resistance

A smoothness you can feel—a finish that not only feels as smooth as silk but looks just as rich"

Opinions?

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post #549 of 1426 Old 07-13-2009, 08:17 AM
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And now I am looking at Black Widow...

I see what people mean when they say their eyes bleed when looking into DIY screens...

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post #550 of 1426 Old 07-13-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1canuck2 View Post

And now I am looking at Black Widow...

I see what people mean when they say their eyes bleed when looking into DIY screens...

Yeah....indecisiveness can be a virtue when exploring options on this Forum, as long as it is tempered with the knowledge one obtains with examinimg both the availability of options and the performance parameters they provide...and how they relate to one's specefic needs and expectations.

But don't quote me on that...............

We all have our preferences, and some have them for the right....and the wrong reasons. But in the end, unless one makes a horrible choice, if they are happy with what they wind up, it's all good and there is no wrong choice.

But the latter is a "Perfect World" kinda thing and people often do make a wrong choice because they "jerk a knee" and go with something that seems so right, but do so for all the wrong reasons. Examining things a bit, then following the advice of those who have been "there...done that" can go a long way toward avoiding such dissappoinment, but you can't do that without developing a case of eyestrain.

Black Widow is one of the easier applications as far as compiling the ingrediants together...no arguement there. But as far as performance goes, it originally was introduced as a solution for viewing in Ambient light while maintaining decent image qualities. However it was, in it's original formula, a app that did crush Whites, and being under 1.0 gain, something that performed best with brighter PJs. So by introducing lighter Bases, and dropping the much vaunted AAA Aluminum in favor of another item, by lightening it considerably it was re-made into something that could service a broader base of DIY'ers, but that whose performance became more akin to many other previously featured applications, such as the RS-MaxxxMudd you have considered. Actually, the old standby MMUd-SE is easily as good as or better than the latest Bug (Scorpion) which is simply a very light version of BW but that uses "as yet unknown" Silver Metallic ingrediant instead.

But nothing has shown the considerable promise as consistantly as long as Silver Fire. (...a upgrade from RS-MaxxxMudd...). Silver Fire is...and has remained true to it's original formulation for over 4 years on....(...excepting component changes meant to improve quality...) only it's become even more infinately adjustable from it's darkest manifestations down to shades that appear almost Silver-White. The biggest difference between SF and the rest of the Ambient Light crowd is that when it is lightened in shade, it ALWAYS retains a higher degree of Ambient light performance potential than any similarly shaded Neutral Gray, or a Black Widow that has had it's reflective properties compromised by reducing the AAA content. Scorpion? Not even in the same league...but then again it doesn't aspire to be all that much a ambient light performer. It's a application well suited for, and developed for Light Controlled inviroments. Many other apps do that job just as well...some do so without even needing paint.


In considering the differences, you have to make practical decicions as to what fits your needs and expectations.
  • Do you want / need any REAL degree of ambient light viewing potential?
  • Do you want / expect maximum Color and Contrast with virtually no loss of Whites?
  • Do you simply want something so easy to assemble / mix that you can do so with your eyes closed?
  • Do you feel / appreciate that spraying will provide the best Surface possible?
  • Do you want to / or are you limited to Rolling?
  • Is Cost of the components so big a factor that performance must take a back seat?

Other than the above....and the retoric we all sometimes present about our favorite choices, the real choice should ideally fall to the app that can provide the widest range of performance over the largest span of potential inviroments. Basically, and without my making any suggestions as to what that choice may / should be, a perusement through the various Threads, and a examination of the posted results by those who have accomplished successful examples should allow you to make a decisive choice based on your own education.....painful and as drwn out as that might be.

After all of that if your still confused and indecisive....PM the Folks you most think have something akin to what you want / can manage and ask them for their opinions. That's better than getting pitched battles over claims of superiority started. We "Developers" are all passionate about what we create, and even more so about bringing them to bear for those in need, so balance the Hue & Cry with what you yourself can see as being valid and make a choice you can stick with and "Getter Dun"

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post #551 of 1426 Old 07-13-2009, 03:52 PM
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Wow! Thanks for the detailed reply. I have spent a few hours trolling threads here and on a couple of other forums, and I must admit I have no idea what to go with...

How about, I start by addressing your list:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

  • Do you want / need any REAL degree of ambient light viewing potential?
  • Do you want / expect maximum Color and Contrast with virtually no loss of Whites?
  • Do you simply want something so easy to assemble / mix that you can do so with your eyes closed?
  • Do you feel / appreciate that spraying will provide the best Surface possible?
  • Do you want to / or are you limited to Rolling?
  • Is Cost of the components so big a factor that performance must take a back seat?

I don't need ambient light potential, but it would be nice. My room has no windows. But "socially" it might be nice to have something on the screen without it having to be pitch dark (playing Wii/PS3 for example).

Yes I want minimal loss of whites and maximal colour/contrast!
But, I'll address the cost one next, the cost is a factor. I am way over budget on this project as is. I am looking for an "impressively good" DIY solution (for the time being). I read one thread where someone attributed percentages to screens. Assuming straight white paint is 90%,
I am prepared to spend ~$100 to get to the 97%, but not $200 to get to 98%. Does that make sense? The ROI starts to diminish at the upper end... (i.e. you can doulble the investment for a 1% improvement).

Easy to assemble would be nice, but I am not a totally hamfisted bonehead, so I can handle a recipe. My bigger challenge has been finding the ingredients at affordable prices in Canada!

Spraying v Rolling: Right now it looks like rolling is my only option as I can't find the Wagner Control Spray locally. Owning one of these would be nice for other purposes, so I can easily amortize its cost over multiple projects, but I would like to get locally/affordably. I have emailed Wagner to see if they can give me some local resellers...

Right now, I am somewhat leaning towards RS-MaxxxMudd for the following reasons:
  • I would say it is halfway between the complexity of a Silver Fire and simply buying Behr Silverscreen.
  • It can be rolled, whereas Silver Fire is tougher to roll
  • I can get all the ingredients locally.
  • It has a shorter list of ingredients and is thus a little cheaper

Would it be a 97% to Behr Silverscreen's 90%, with Silver Fire as a 98%? Or am I off there...

I received a pm earlier from someone who conveniently lives locally to me! He has a test board of Black Widow that he made up and is willing to loan it to me! He said BW was not for him and was not what he expected. He has a previous iteration Epson projector, so its not an apples to apples compared with mine (and obviously his room is different too) but it was one of a few comments and threads that have put me off BW now... I keep coming back to RS-MaxxxMudd (which I assume you had a hand in developing...)

My basement is two Fridays away from completion. I am going to have my builder just prime the screen wall. I then plan on getting Kilz2 and doing two coats of my own primer (and some light sanding). Then I'll calibrate my projector against that and go from there. I'll hopefully be able to borrow the BW board for some testing to at least put my mind to rest about whether or not BW is for me. But as I say, I am leaning towards RS-MM.

Thanks for your input so far. I guess I am kind of cluttering the SF thread with non-SF chatter, should I delete/move my posts to a new thread?

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post #552 of 1426 Old 07-13-2009, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1canuck2 View Post

Thanks for your input so far. I guess I am kind of cluttering the SF thread with non-SF chatter, should I delete/move my posts to a new thread?

No...your not, and no, don't move it. Most everything asked has some degree of relevance if the questions have merit and are asked with the idea of getting effective replies. If you could not ask something about another application on a thread were you are considering the exiting app, then that should pretty much tell you you should look elsewere in any case.

As I said, the preferences we all posses do make us to some degree biased, but if we/any of us have the best interest of the Poster in mind, then the answers we give should reflect that clearly enough for one to tell.

Myself...I don't advocate the "%" levels some have posted. To me they only represent a way to narrow the differences between applications...but they do to a point where they serve to discount the "Real World" difference people do in fact experience. And most all of it is speculative because the "one on one" comparisions needed to qualify such percentages have not been made.

To this effect, the difference between a UPW wall and Silver Fire in ambient light is about 100% because the UPW has nothing remotely like the potential of SF...or a Neutral Gray for that matter. Nor can it do anything to improve Color in such situations as varied as a Dark room on up. White is what it is and White can only be as good as the PJs output, and the effect the environment has on the reflected image. It's that simple.

The results shown and advocated by those who have tried or supported the use of Reflective Mixes are really what that all got started about, and by those who decried the value and necessity of utilizing such. (...the Neutral Gray Crowd...) So naturally, speculative figures that supported their opinions were offered up. It's not really true, at least in the majority of cases and situations. And really any sensible amount of reasoning shows that because without the qualities that advanced applications bring to the table....they would not be considered advanced at all, and very quickly would have been discounted by most if not all those who have gave them a go.

That hasn't happened...merely that those who have NOT tried them have waxed forth as their being not necessary if one doesn't want to, or cannot attempt them. Not that isn't actually true...but the end results will reflect (...or fail to...) the differences. The truest statement of all is the one that states that what you don't have to compare against cannot leave you wanting as much as seeing the real difference.

To that point, if one posseses a PJ w/2500 lumens and 2500:1 CR, most assuredly a Neutral Gray will perform splendidly...up to a point that virtually anybody who sees the image will be greatly impressed. That's all most aspire to have happen anyway.

But take away that perponderance of Lumens and all bets are off the table. It's as simple as that. But all the statements to the contrary about Neutral Grays being such a effective all-around application tend to lead too many down the thorny path of disgruntlement. That's sad...and a primary reason people such as I strive to show others the flip side of the equation.

Yes...we have to battle the caveats of additional costs, or somewhat more complex application methods, but as for myself, if I could get the results from something done easier that what I do out of hand, Brother...I'd do it . You can beleive it. That some do not see / realize that is a mystery to me. It does tend to make me wonder if they think I actually continue on beating my Drum, and banging my head against the wall simply because I want to run contrary to popular opinion. I don't like pain...and I certainly DO NOT want to work harder, or make things more difficult for myself or others just to prove a point...that I do not want to nor will accept a varying opinion or end result.

Consider this point. A few of those who originally discounted the need for the use of Metallic content in a mix now strongly advocate it's use as being a superior advantage over non metallic applications, and over the widest range of needs and situations.

Go figure.

So by reason, if a application can improve the perception of contrast....while ramping up color saturation without blooming, and can also offer "Lights Up" viewing as well, what's not to like about it? Very little in my book. Only the need for or the neccessity of more costly ingrediants or specilized application methods are to be considered as being issues, not the "over the Top" performance one can acheive.

Now as for rolling, consider that even with a simple paint, if the job is fudged, you'll not be happy with the result. And lots of people make fudge when rolling even simple paints. Metallic Mixes can be even more challenging....to roll, but not if one does them accoring to known techniques. But very few ever fail to produce a Filet Mignon when they spray ANY type of DIY Paint application according to the Master receipe and written directions.

I'm just a Kitchen Helper in that regard....but one who does all the Prep work while the Chef does all the cookin'.

So start cookin' already !

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post #553 of 1426 Old 07-13-2009, 05:30 PM
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Hi 1canuck2,

Don't make the mistake of comparing a BW panel directly against a white wall. No N7.5 mix would fair well in that type of comparison, not even SF. Gray screens, all of them, depend on a type of optical illusion that fools the brain into thinking grays are really whites. This only works if a much lighter gray or white screen/wall isn't in the same field of view.

Also, maximum screen gain only tells part of the story; of the DIY mixes that were actually measured for gain, those with maximum gain values of 1.0 or higher didn't keep that value long when moving away from the center theater seat position of 0 degrees. The SF that was tested lost all of it's gain advantage over BW when it got past the 15 degree angle mark, from there on out BW actually has the higher gain.

MM's info on the Scorpion mixes is wrong, but since this is the SF thread I won't elaborate.
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post #554 of 1426 Old 07-13-2009, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post

MM's info on the Scorpion mixes is wrong, but since this is the SF thread I won't elaborate.

Oh no...by all and every means feel free to do so. Enquiring minds want to know! I'm only stating what has been posted by you BW/folks yourself. If you now know what the true composition of the Silver Metallic used is, then please, educate us. Up till now...it's been an unknown and somewhat speculative thing, has it not? And through it all there have been continued statements alluding as to the adverse nature of Mica Based Metallics, yet all the while the performance of both Silver Fire and S-I-L-V-E-R examples continue to exhibit "overall" superior levels of performance compared to any Aluminum or "unknown" reflective element.

This despite the horrid effect of Mica.

....which has always been a convienent subject of conjecture by those who do not use it, and must strive to come up with something else to use lest they be guilty of embracing that whih others have already shown to be quite good at what it does.

I still chuckle at how so many who had for so long discounted Reflective mixes as being even worth the trouble to pursue have now embraced them so wholeheartedly. Obviously they only do so now because they say they have come up with something "reflective" that does it all better...but the results don't really jibe with that line of reasoning. And from the start...it's been a battle to try to correct the caveats that the use of Aluminum brought to the Table.

No matter what else is said, every test done was done by those who have every reason to be biased against, and offer up figures that will effectively discount the qualities that the use if Mica Based metallics can offer.

And more so, I feel your figures on SF's gain at 15 degrees are also completely wrong, and in the case of SF, I have no doubt that the SF application tested was NOT a properly mixed or properly applied example. Even the Base was not done as it was supposed to have been done, and that alone is enough to discount the results. I recall that some things were mixed...and the paint applied in a manner not in keeping with the norm, yet the testing was done and then presented as if it the representitive example was one that could be construed as being a prime example of SF.

The testing was not one of a consistantly produced Mfg Screen sample, nor one of a completely and correctly done DIY SF screen, so it really isn't a excercise in obtaining any degree of a correct idea of what SF is, or is not capable of. It was only "conviently" done and the posted end results "convienent" to the resons it was tested at all.

I've seen and compared virtually identical shades of SF over BW in a very controled testing situation and the differences were 180 degrees the opposite of what you just related. And I used a formula that was given to me as being correct, and sprayed it on to the best of my ability. Later, it was determined that it might have been less than it could be (the BW) because the Base was not as effective as in might otherwise could have been. So in that regard I suppose we're even on that score.

SF has always had a much wider viewing cone than BW, and maintains it's brightness off axis better. Considering it starts out brighter to begin with is only part of the story. The way it can more effectively scatter light in a wider pattern completely refutes your prior statement.

If you want to dispute these points, then please, Post up a new thread to do so. This Thread is not such a location. But if you want to correct something perviously stated as being a unkown fact that is now a known "fact", then please feel free to do so. I'm always ready to learn of something new that is better. Share away!

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post #555 of 1426 Old 07-14-2009, 06:54 AM
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Zoinks!

Thanks for the input guys. I see I may have open some old war wounds... This was not my intention. It also unfortunately serves to add to my confusion, since there's clearly (at least) two camps here with wildly different opinions.

My criteria for something that is:
1. Rollable
2. A step up from simple Behr Silverscreen
3. Not overly expensive/complicated

Is there something "simple" that can be done with only a couple of extra (inexpensive) additives to a standard can of paint that will give me a step up from a Behr Silverscreen?

I may bust this out to a new thread anyway, since I am not so much debating Silver Fire as I am debating which DIY paint to pick and I think SF is beyond my budget/ability to purchase locally.

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post #556 of 1426 Old 07-14-2009, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1canuck2 View Post

Zoinks!

Thanks for the input guys. I see I may have open some old war wounds... This was not my intention. It also unfortunately serves to add to my confusion, since there's clearly (at least) two camps here with wildly different opinions.

Not your fault, nor is it a bad thing to be overly anxious about choosing something for a project that is so "visually" important, and whose overall quality and end results will most definately depend upon one's own involvement and skills, not to mention wallet.

Two Camps? Guess again ! More like a half dozen. What says a lot is how some Camps need to pack up and change locations because the Tent they pitch seems to flood when the weather is not perfect. Or they have to go looking around for a better Tent, or continuiosly expand the choices of Tents that can accomodate more Happy Campers, because the one they have currently doesn't serve the needs of the many various Campers.

That's all a bit oblique, I know. But the truth is this;

If you spend a bit more, and go to a bit more effort, you can have an application that can serve you in good stead across several different fronts, and do so with above average results in each category. Although you might not need the all offerings independently, together they amount to a Screen that comes as close as one can to being all things at once.

Much is often said about how there is no single Screen application that can serve the needs of all People, but in truth, a well rounded application, one that by itself has done so for a great many different individuals for so long , and continues to do so without drastically re-inventing itself shows that such an application can indeed come close to that ideal.

This seems to irritate a few people, that such a galling statement can and is made. Nonetheless it sometimes does need to be stated. DIY Screens is about experimentation and bringing forth new...or improved ideas and applications to the Forum Membership. That some can, and have done so to a greater extent than others is only natural. That some must defend their own work & efforts...also natural. But that some feel the need to discount one over another to the point of trying to exclude one choice over another is not so much natural as it is human nature. Only some revert to the Nethanderal level when doing so. I'm not excluded from donning a Bear Skin jacket myself every so often...so I cannot chuck a Rock in any real direction as much as scatter them about when I see the need to do so.

So don't fret. We Members who have worked hard to present our efforts to others are always going to differ on select points of order and what we think is important. That's natural, because if every application was the same.....how boring that would be?

I advocate Silver Fire because I know it is something very special, and well worth the effort, and many who have followed suit can attest to that.

I don't discount more simpler applications, only state from experience that they do in fact come up short in one manner or another simply by virtue of their not being so broadly based in performance criteria as to be able to effectively handle a wider range of viewing situation. Consider Silver Fire as being a SUV-like Screen application, only it's not a Ford Explorer, but rather a cross between the original Humvee, a Range Rover, with a Bently tossed in for good measure. The Wagner is your Trusty Mechanic that makes it Purr, and the PJ is your Fuel. In the end, the Gas you put into the equation will dictate how fast and far you go. The Epson 6500 UB is most definately High Test Aviation fuel.

Quote:


My criteria for something that is:
1. Rollable
2. A step up from simple Behr Silverscreen
3. Not overly expensive/complicated

Is there something "simple" that can be done with only a couple of extra (inexpensive) additives to a standard can of paint that will give me a step up from a Behr Silverscreen?

If you want that sort of thing using immediately available ingrediants, go for MMud-SE or the next up from that, RS-MaxMudd. Rolled, the MMud-SE is perfectly able to give the 6500 a pallet on which to show both it's muscle and finesse, and because it uses less Silver Metallic than the other offerings, your all the more assured of getting a screen surface that is invisible....that is does not offer up any granularity. Ditto with RS-MaxxxMudd, and it rolls well too, but from 2' to 3' you will see a little Screen composition.

If your lucky, and you can find Auto Air Aluminum Fine locally, (...most must order it...and many must wait a bit accordingly for it to arrive....) then Black Widow can also be considered.But it has a reputation of having more "specularity" (...you can sometimes see the Aluminum content from a normal veiwing distance), and White Crush, and if you reduce the Aluminum content to offset that, you must also alter the Base to compensate accordingly.

The Scorpion mix might also be very satisfactory, as it fairly easy to assemble, but it was created to be a much lighter mix, and therefore won't provide as much Ambient light performance as it will Dark room viewability without crushing whites at all.

Really...and with your given situation and desire to make something up that is above par and do so with some degree of extra effort, MMud-SE using the following would seem best.;

Valspar Flat Interior Enamel (White)
Delta Silver Metallic
Minwax Water Based Poly
Thin with 20% Filtered Water to existing mix volume

....and have a little bottle of Folk Art Champagne Metallic Gold on hand to correct any visual push toward Blue. Most likjely there will be none, but adding 2 onces of FACMG will do nothing to hurt, but rather assure that Flesh tomes remain "Fleshy" and Reds do not in any way have a shift to the Violet range.

To that effect is why some advocate simpler Neutral mixes. Rs-MaxxMudd is very neutral, as is MMud-SE, with the former having a gain of over 1.2, but depending upon the Metallic Content and the sensitivity of one's vision and the PJ itself, a few do/have stated a slight oush into blue on a very few aspects can be seen if one concentrates on noticing such.

Quote:


I may bust this out to a new thread anyway, since I am not so much debating Silver Fire as I am debating which DIY paint to pick and I think SF is beyond my budget/ability to purchase locally.


Good luck...and no matter what application you choose, authoring a new thread to illustrate your efforts for others to benifit is exactly what DIY is, and should be all about.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #557 of 1426 Old 07-14-2009, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Oh no...by all and every means feel free to do so. Enquiring minds want to know! I'm only stating what has been posted by you BW/folks yourself.

Uhh, not quite. You said:
Quote:


So by introducing lighter Bases, and dropping the much vaunted AAA Aluminum in favor of another item, by lightening it considerably it was re-made into something that could service a broader base of DIY'ers, but that whose performance became more akin to many other previously featured applications, such as the RS-MaxxxMudd you have considered. Actually, the old standby MMUd-SE is easily as good as or better than the latest Bug (Scorpion) which is simply a very light version of BW but that uses "as yet unknown" Silver Metallic ingrediant instead.

You indicate that the Scorpion mixes have dropped "the much vaunted AAA Aluminum in favor of another item", this is incorrect and what I was referring to in my last post. Scorpion is simply a mixture of two existing mixes (Black Widow and Cream&Sugar). This is explained in detail on the home forum of those two mixes. You say that Scorpion's performance is similar to RS-MaxxxMudd, but less than MMUd-SE. That is your opinion, which is fine; I simply disagree.

Quote:


If you now know what the true composition of the Silver Metallic used is, then please, educate us. Up till now...it's been an unknown and somewhat speculative thing, has it not?

We've been down this road before and I won't travel it again since it leads nowhere. I will just say that we have had recent proof on this very forum that the metallic flakes in C&S are indeed NOT mica. Also, I have said before that I am not against the use of mica-based paints in screen mixes. I truly don't know why you want to insist that I am. ??? Can it be over-done? Yes, and the resulting effects are well known.

Quote:


And through it all there have been continued statements alluding as to the adverse nature of Mica Based Metallics, yet all the while the performance of both Silver Fire and S-I-L-V-E-R examples continue to exhibit "overall" superior levels of performance compared to any Aluminum or "unknown" reflective element.

I guess that depends on one's definition of performance.

Quote:


And more so, I feel your figures on SF's gain at 15 degrees are also completely wrong, and in the case of SF, I have no doubt that the SF application tested was NOT a properly mixed or properly applied example. Even the Base was not done as it was supposed to have been done, and that alone is enough to discount the results. I recall that some things were mixed...and the paint applied in a manner not in keeping with the norm, yet the testing was done and then presented as if it the representitive example was one that could be construed as being a prime example of SF.

The testing was not one of a consistantly produced Mfg Screen sample, nor one of a completely and correctly done DIY SF screen, so it really isn't a excercise in obtaining any degree of a correct idea of what SF is, or is not capable of. It was only "conviently" done and the posted end results "convienent" to the resons it was tested at all.

Mech made that SF screen before I came into the picture, you'll have to take that up with him. I do, however; remember him stating that he asked you to provide a sample of SF to test and nothing was received. He has stated that he made the SF panel explicitly to the instructions of the formula at the time.

Quote:


SF has always had a much wider viewing cone than BW, and maintains it's brightness off axis better. Considering it starts out brighter to begin with is only part of the story. The way it can more effectively scatter light in a wider pattern completely refutes your prior statement.

Anyone who has seen BW and SF screens side-by-side would know that SF has much more sheen than BW. There is no way BW would have a narrower viewing cone than SF, and TESTS prove that. I realize you will disavow any tests that compromise what you have said about the gain or viewing cone of your mixes, but that doesn't alter the truth of objective tests using known and accepted industry standards.

Just one more thing... you said:
Quote:


If your lucky, and you can find Auto Air Aluminum Fine locally, (...most must order it...and many must wait a bit accordingly for it to arrive....) then Black Widow can also be considered.But it has a reputation of having more "specularity" (...you can sometimes see the Aluminum content from a normal veiwing distance), and White Crush, and if you reduce the Aluminum content to offset that, you must also alter the Base to compensate accordingly.

Black Widow using AAA-F has NEVER had a "specularity" problem and no one has ever complained about seeing the aluminum particles at normal viewing distance. I believe that Tiddler mentioned something about being able to see something of the kind, but he did NOT use AAA-F to make that BW screen.
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post #558 of 1426 Old 07-14-2009, 07:09 PM
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You GO Bros!

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post #559 of 1426 Old 07-14-2009, 08:32 PM
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Just a note, anyone looking for a Battle Royal between me and MM here can forget it. I have made my response to certain stated inaccuracies and as far as I am concerned y'all can get back to talking about SF (which was my first screen BTW).
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post #560 of 1426 Old 07-14-2009, 09:34 PM
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I just ask that the faithful readers get a little gun play now and then...

...or how about some 007 vixens?

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post #561 of 1426 Old 07-15-2009, 07:03 PM
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Harpmaker,

The test/s done only prove what can be proved by the use of the sample (not a actual screen) that was made. I don't / won't dispute that they were made with honest intentions, but honesty doesn't always relate to "accuracy" when someone else is resonsible for doing the job of making something via DIY methods. Tests results must depend upon the condition of the tested subject, so any deviation in performance could easily be construed as a error in presenting a accurate example to be tested. In reality, it isn't accurate or even fair to publish such figures made under such circumstances, and make such definative evaluations under those circumstances. As I said, you were not using a Mfg Sample...just a hand made one. Those figures should not even have been published...and having been done so, they are in fact open to dispute...if not indeed dismissal. As it stands, they can only be seen as something convienently posted to illustrate a point in favor against the application.

As for my not providing a sample...the original request was NOT made in a manner that suited me, nor with any real effort at courtesy, more like a gauntlet slapped in a face. That doesn't preclude one going to the expense and bother of shipping at least a 4' x 4' sample off to someone with a history of abusive comments and agressive attitude.

You know...it's always been you other folks that had something to prove over applications that already had long estabilished both effective results and a diverse following, and the manner in which that has been done started out as being very abusive, and overly hyped to the extreme. When called out for such actions and behavior...the parties up and deserted AVS so they could publish and present their views with impunity, under their own terms and dictates. Let's not forget to educate everyone about that, eh? So things did get out of sorts, and that also could not work very well to help make any further cooperation bloom effectively when ther underlying reason was simply one of a group of individuals trying to knock another application down a peg....or out the door completely, all the while furthering the idea that what they have presented is so vastly superior to everything else as to make everythingb else seem like a wasted effort. . And that was what was happening...there can be no denying it. So that little bit of past history cannot be overlooked simply because it is....history. Yes, later that tone was mollified somewhat....but the dismissal of relevance and effectiveness of other Applications and their components continued unabated, and unlike this Forum, where you can still pop in and elaborate on your own opinion, no such leeway is EVER granted elsewhere on a site Moderated by biased individuals who can decide who they want to post, and what they can even post about.

I make ALL my evaluations from actual full sized examples, and basically I'm just a wee bit more assured that the examples I make are ALWAYS done correctly. And let's face it...even if I myself possesed all the Test equipment...and made every tested example myself....it would almost certainly be viewed as being a biased test if and when any figures I published seemed to dispute what was /has been stated or tested as being different elsewhere. I simply do not feel DIY has anything that needs to be proven beyond being basically what a DIY'er can accomplish and be satisfied with. And if I did deign to elaborate on the qualities of my applications via such posted test results, I'm absloutely certain I'd be quickly adjuded as being guilty of promoting them over all else...which certainly seems to be the case coming from the other direction. Instead I relay primarily on the results posted by those who have actually "Been there...done that" themselves. Those are the People I'm here to help. Those who simply want proof I should even bother to do so are not in my reasoning nearly as important.

To Harpmaker and everyone else,

There is no battle here....only my elaborating on my experiences based on practical applications in real world situations, at full sized applications, on a Thread dedicated to those applications. My exhultations are bound to run contrary to some opinions, be they based on reputed factual testing or simply "opinions".

Harpmaker, your responses are in keeping with what would be expected, and also perhaps even justified in some ways, only they overlook(...or ignore) so much "past history" and the root causes behind the ensuing descripencies behind statements I might make based on the confusing and incomplete information posted elsewhere.

And as I said early...you should dispute anything you don't agree with in a seperate Thread entitiled such....not continue to rebut a few points on this important thread. For my part, I'll try harder at my "Fact Checking" so as to not create the need for your intervention under such circumstances.

So let's wrap it up and get on with helping people...each on our own threads and in our own respective ways.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #562 of 1426 Old 07-15-2009, 11:06 PM
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I agree, let this thread get back on track, but one last post to hopefully clarify a few things that were brought up and put them to bed.

Screen gain measurements are not taken using a full size screen. The protocol in question calls for the use of a 1 degree spot meter to measure a very small area of the screen. This is the way the commercial screen manufacturers do it and this is the way that we are doing it.

I hope you noticed I said 'we'; while mech does the actual measurements, the protocols were studied by all the people on our development team and it is most definitely a group effort of all involved that lead to the establishment of an accurate gain measurement system. A number of commercial screens were measured to be sure we were getting accurate results. Gain data was not publicly posted until we all were confident in the accuracy of same. This is objective data. Personalities and personal opinions don't enter into it.

You are quite correct that one DIY painted screen may test differently than another using the same paint formula. I would further add that the more paints that are used in the mix and the more ingredients that have to be individually measured the greater chance there will be differences between screens. We must also consider how the paint is applied, the more exacting or difficult the application technique the more chance of differences between individual screens. This is not a slam at Silver Fire or S-I-L-V-E-R, it is a simple truth that I hope all can see; it applies to ALL paint formulae and application techniques.

As for me "ignoring past history", you are absolutely right. 99% of that history occurred before I got into DIY screens and it hasn't tainted my beliefs or opinions. What has formed my beliefs and opinions about DIY screens is my early experiences, and those of a few others as well, didn't match what was being reported on the forum and I wanted to find out why. I want to know how and why such-and-such works and why that-and-that doesn't. This is where so much fiction between you and me has come from; you and yours are subjective and me and mine are objective.

OK, poke me with a fork, I'm done.
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post #563 of 1426 Old 07-16-2009, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post


OK, poke me with a fork, I'm done.

Bend over please.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #564 of 1426 Old 07-16-2009, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Bend over please.

This is a family forum, Maurice - forks may not be used in that manner.

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Originally Posted by Harpmaker View Post

This is where so much fiction between you and me has come from; you and yours are subjective and me and mine are objective.

Typing too fast, or Freudian slip?

Seriously, thanks for the "agreement to disagree". It's very refreshing to see.

Garry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55 View Post

Quote:


Originally Posted by Harpmaker
This is where so much fiction between you and me has come from; you and yours are subjective and me and mine are objective.

Typing too fast, or Freudian slip?

Seriously, thanks for the "agreement to disagree". It's very refreshing to see.

Garry

Just depended too much on the spellchecker... dad gum thing doesn't help with syntax a bit! It was funny though. In case anyone is wondering, I meant to say "friction".
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post #566 of 1426 Old 07-16-2009, 11:41 AM
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OK I think I decided to try this on my new setup in the upcoming weeks but I have a question and I apologize in advance if this has been asked time and time again and I missed them.

What is best substrate to apply the SF to? Im aiming for a 120" screen with a Epson 6500ub with some ambient light.

I was thinking light fusion but finding a mirror that large might present a problem although I havent looked that hard. Im in DFW TX so Im sure there are suppliers out this way somewhere if that would be the best way to go.
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post #567 of 1426 Old 07-16-2009, 04:17 PM
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OK I think I decided to try this on my new setup in the upcoming weeks but I have a question and I apologize in advance if this has been asked time and time again and I missed them.

G'Day Mate !

And welcome to the ranks of the AVS posting Membership !

Mississippiman is greeting the Morning time in Perth, AU....and a beautiful day it is. Rain Squalls, 36 klm hr. steady winds, 8 degrees celsius. And today...we're painting 4 SF screens, of which 2 are Light Fusions, and 2 are on White Coated Hardboard (all between 85" & 98" diagonal) It was going to happen outside, inside a hastily constructed Plastic Sheet Spray tent, but that's not possible with a blow coming up from Antartica such as it is. So now, it's up into the Living Room, with the room draped in Plastic.

Crikey ! No Worries ! And no problem about asking questions so oft repeated, as long as it's your first post.

Quote:


What is best substrate to apply the SF to? Im aiming for a 120" screen with a Epson 6500ub with some ambient light.

I was thinking light fusion but finding a mirror that large might present a problem although I havent looked that hard. Im in DFW TX so Im sure there are suppliers out this way somewhere if that would be the best way to go.

Indeed a Mirror is the best possible Substrate, for several reasons. However it may not only be difficult, but impossible to find a 5' x 10' Acrylic Mirror. The only Mfg who made them out of hand, Bunker Plastics in TX. sold out (good phrase... ) to Plaskolite (OH) who now holds a monopoly on the making of Plastic Mirrors. As such, they dismantled Bunker's presses, and discontinued the ad-hoc production of all mirrors exceeding 4' x 8' excepting special "Full Pallet" orders of 15 or more.

However in a few places, Distributors have some stock in the 5' x 8' range, which can deliver 110" diagonal (...cut down to 54" x 96" from 60" x 96" stock). And it seems to me recently (several months ago actually) a Member in DFW found a source in that size range, so checking that out, if you can abide the size reduction from 120", would be something worth attempting. (..also available in San Diego, CA)

A final caveat that exists is cost. A 10' x 5' mirror cost approx $240.00 two years ago, and about $130.00 to ship via Common Carrier. Prices on material and shipping have escalated since then, so.......

.......why even bother to consider reducing size and paying more $$ to accomodate a Mirror? Because SF Light Fusion is (IMO? ) the epitome of the art of DIY Screen making. It combines just about every advanced aspect of working to improve an image that we DIY'ers have strived for, some for over a decade. To wit;
  • The additional reflection of collected light that penetrates the surface coating and strikes the Mirrored surface further enhances percieved Contrast, by allowing both a Darker shade of Gray (w/Metallics) to be used as the initial refective surface, and by delivering back to that surface attenuated light that deepens hues across the Gray scale
  • This in turn produces the appearence of enhanced depth perception. The curvature of objects show more intricate shadow detail, so 3-dimensionality is far beyond even what a good 1080p PJ can produce on a flat White/Gray surface alone.
  • The ultra smooth surface of the Mirror allows for the creation of a ultra smooth painted surface (especially when sprayed) that creates a "High Deffinition" screen whose surface allows the reproduction of the most minutest detail while not introducing any abborehent surface artifacts.

Now that your drooling, dab that mess and consider your other options.

Most Plastic Dist. offer 1/8" Clear Acrylic in huge sizes, as well as a translucent "Milky White" Plastic that is used extensively in the Sign Making industry. The "MW" variety needs to be primed first with a bright White Paint, as would the Clear. However by applying Aluminized Mylar to the rear of the Clear, you can effectively duplicate the Mirror effect quite handily. You would have to apply the Mylar directly to the Mirror using Clear Spray adhesive....and it is not essential that the application be absolutely perfect in the sense you would see no creases or waves when complete. The reflectivity is what is desired, not the ability to Shave yourself via the reflection.

Costs will be reduced by almost 1/2 doing it via such a method, but the complexity of the build will increase by 2x as well. But you can count on help via this venue, of course.

Ok, so all that seems a bit much? Simply prime the Clear/MW and get to spraying SF directly onto the Plastic. SFs higher gain of 1.3 will serve you good stead in that even with a darker shade of Gray, loss of whites and the reduction of color vibrancy will be held to almost negligable levels in any case.
The only other Ambient light Screen worth considering that sports such a gain is Screen Innovations newest Black Diamond version (1.4) but it's got both a narrower "1/2 gain" viewing cone, does not offer any "3-D" or "Plasma Bright" effect, and costs $2500.00 + for just a 100" diagonal screen Also, it has to be mounted on a "Leg Stand".

All the latter is why DIY can be so advantageous to the DIY'er willing to go to the "little extra effort". You can taylor make an application to your specific needs...not simply accept the dictates and limitations (...and the cost...) that Screen Mfgs offer.

The final choice is to simply smooth out a wall and paint directly to that surface after priming. And that suggestion would not leave you wanting, because using a Epson 6500UB, mounted at the close end of the needed throw distance (15') you can zoom out your screen size to 150" diagonal and still maintain a Foot lamberts measurement of 15 fl. Stick to 120" @ 14' Throw and you get a extremely bright 20 fl. 12' Throw? 24 fl

It's all good...and it can get even better if you work to optimize every aspect of your screen build, and your Room's design aspects to maximize your experience.

OK...just after 7:AM here...and still time to practice on my new 5' long Aboriginal made Didgeridoo before I depart to the location where I'll be attempting one of the more challenging efforts I've done for some time. (Pics and Videos to be made of course)

BTW, If anyone thinks mixing up Silver Fire is difficult, or learning how to spray with a Wagner is a chore, just try learning "Circular Breathing" where you have to inhale through you nose and blow out your mouth at the same time.

Cheers from Perth, AU to all....



.and yes, that's a Croc Dundee hat w/real Croc Teeth.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #568 of 1426 Old 07-16-2009, 06:25 PM
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Ah Yes' Circular Breathing! Them damn aussies are letting too much of their culture to become influenced by eastern thought/mythology
Still Readin', Steve

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post #569 of 1426 Old 07-16-2009, 06:55 PM
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Thanks MM! I knew finding a mirror that large maybe a chore and almost impossible so I was thinking last week that possibly I would be able to get a clear sheet of plexi and getting a local decal shop that specializes in doing "wraps" on vehicles print me out a huge sheet of "chrome" vinyl and basically make my own mirror. I suggested a decal shop because of their use of large printers. I wonder if seams in the mirror vinyl would project through on the picture though.

So if I were to go the light fusion route, there is no way to get mulitple sheets of mirror'd acrylic together and be able to hide the seams during the spraying process?

I may call the shop tomorrow and see if they could make me a mirror'd decals and what the price is. I dont mind paying a bit now and getting something jaw dropping if possible. Considering what a ready made screen would run me, even dropping $500 on a DIY screen isnt something Im apposed to if I can get what I want out of it. No reason to spend $3k on a PJ, $3500 on a 5.1 setup then only limit the screen to $100.


ADD - Forgot to mention, the idea of painting SF straight to the wall might be a option as well if it will give a good picture. I currently have a decorative wood paneling wall where the screen will be and the paneling will be coming down next week and I may have to re-drywall that wall anyway so getting a smooth wall with no texture isnt out of the question. I just thought a LF screen would give a better picture and honestly, the idea behind LF astounds me so I wanted to try it, lol. But Im all game if a wall painted screen will give me just as good picture. Hell it sounds alot easier lol.
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post #570 of 1426 Old 07-16-2009, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lason View Post

Thanks MM! I knew finding a mirror that large maybe a chore and almost impossible so I was thinking last week that possibly I would be able to get a clear sheet of plexi and getting a local decal shop that specializes in doing "wraps" on vehicles print me out a huge sheet of "chrome" vinyl and basically make my own mirror. I suggested a decal shop because of their use of large printers. I wonder if seams in the mirror vinyl would project through on the picture though.

No....they would / will not, as long as it's simply a vauge line and not a drastic space that doesn't have any reflectivity. That's why a wrinkle or two in Mylar won't show either.

Ya know...I never though of having a Window Tinting Shop do the job, but gosh....there ya go!

Quote:


So if I were to go the light fusion route, there is no way to get mulitple sheets of mirror'd acrylic together and be able to hide the seams during the spraying process?

I may call the shop tomorrow and see if they could make me a mirror'd decals and what the price is. I dont mind paying a bit now and getting something jaw dropping if possible. Considering what a ready made screen would run me, even dropping $500 on a DIY screen isnt something Im apposed to if I can get what I want out of it. No reason to spend $3k on a PJ, $3500 on a 5.1 setup then only limit the screen to $100.

Absolutely worth it. 'Nuff said on that subject.

Quote:


ADD - Forgot to mention, the idea of painting SF straight to the wall might be a option as well if it will give a good picture. I currently have a decorative wood paneling wall where the screen will be and the paneling will be coming down next week and I may have to re-drywall that wall anyway so getting a smooth wall with no texture isnt out of the question. I just thought a LF screen would give a better picture and honestly, the idea behind LF astounds me so I wanted to try it, lol. But Im all game if a wall painted screen will give me just as good picture. Hell it sounds alot easier lol.

Oh it is...and besides doing it in such a manner doesn't preclude moving forward later with another project...you could even make a 8=98" er and do a comparison!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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