Silver Fire mix - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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WereWolf84;

the latest version is on the first page, first post of this thread.
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Old 10-31-2011, 09:35 AM
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Thanks pb!

ya, I know, because of the words "Light Fusion", so I thought there is another version of SF V2.5
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Old 10-31-2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

If your room is 17' than allowing for the Mounting and required spacing between the Wall and the Pj your throw sould be on the order of 15.5'




Yes it will, to some extent. It's a game of balance. Brook no mistake however...the image will be bright in the dark... on Normal lamp mode. You can always drop into Econo under no-light circumstances, but you cannot magically grow more Fls if the Screen cannot deliver such.



You seem to realize the importance of Light Control, and when your up and running with the PJ/Screen, you'll know immediately what must be done if anything with your current situation.



Actually, that was LF with Paint that had significantly less reflective components...almost a true Flat Paint in nature. With a coating of 1.3 gain or less you'd not ever see any significant difference between dead straight on viewing and 70 degrees "off axis".

Where's that leave me on my choice.... Confused lol.



It's all about the gain...and the gain is there to help maintain Whites as they would look with a far lighter mix.



Because at that level of colorant producing such a dark shade of gray, the end result of using that much reflectivity produces the approx 1.7 gain but you still get the end effects of having so much reflectivity inherent in the "surface" of the coating.



Yes...viewing Cone is measured in increments that start at "dead center"(ie: "on axis") on the screen' and then go off to one side. A 30 degree "off axis" point equals a total 60 degrees of viewing area without undue light drop off.

I guess this leaves with only a few more ?s to figure out before I decide. And I really appreciate all the info!

1. Considering my ceiling light issues, can that handle SF 6.0 with that 1.7 gain? Recall it's only contenders are ambient wall paint reflections and a small kitchen fluorescent 15' or so away(which is on maybe 30% of the time I watch movies inclusive of time there's also window ambient light spill). Or do I need to pick a lower SF 4.0 solution.

2. How rapid and steep is the drop off when you fall out of your "cone". If I was 40 degrees off axis with a 30 degree cone. Or if I pushed it further like 60+ with a 30 degree cone. These examples are me thinking about how it would look when I'm not directly watching something but have movies on while I'm bouncing around the house or doing school work at a dining table ect.

3. What is the effect of sitting in a position where from the center of the screen your in your cone, but perhaps the furthest edge of the screen you don't land in your cone. Creating a position where you hit different gains depending where you look on the screen?

4. With the exception of needing serious pj lumens horsepower and higher gain, what if any tradeoffs can I be looking at by going dark dark SF. Because I just don't see many people going beyond a 3.0 mix. Can it degrade my whites and shift my colors? It seems the norm is if you don't need it for ambient light don't use it, while my impression from you is darker is better (to enhance contrast beyond pj stock capabilities) if u can dish out the lumens.

And I'll look into that pt ar 100. Looks like a new release so no good reviews out yet. Could be a contender for me to the benqw6000
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:48 AM
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OK. I noted a few weeks ago about the hot spot and grainy look in light colored scenes (hockey game, light blue sky, someone with a white or very light colored shirt on, etc.). PB and MM indicated it would get better over time and to calibrate my projector. I did the calibration and it has been three weeks or so since I completed the second go around of the screen. The hotspot is there and so blatant. Maybe I did something wrong but I don't think so. However, I can't understand why no one else seems to have this issue or maybe they are just OK with it. Any thoughts. Should I flip the sintra board over and go with something else like this Sherman Williams white tinted gray?
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken2011;

i think the liquitex titanium white bug might have bit us here.
since the change from behr 1850 flat upw to liquitex titanium white change over... it's clear to me that without a TRUE flat upw in the mix... an issue with too much sheen may result with higher lumen pjs... in your case creating a hotspot.
then to compound the issue less of the liquitex white was used as well.

i've been doing SF for a long time... so i well aware of what my limits are with respect to application... but i have to try and make an effort to keep SF within the limits of DIY.

therefore when it comes to the UPW... i'm going to revert back to what i know works well... and that's the behr upw 1850 flat.

ok, so where does that leave you? well, first i should ask to see how much of the mix you've got left. then i'd advise you to do what we did for dave1969 in the RS-MM thread... and that's to add 3oz to 4oz of behr 1850 upw flat per quart of your remaining mix. 3 dusters.
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:19 PM
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I have to say that I am a bit dissappointed if this is causing the issue. I spent a lot of time on this (partly because of my own mistake originally). However, I almost bought the Behr to begin with when I started because I had the old formula. I then trusted that the change was vetted for issues so I went ahead with the new formula.

At this point, I only have a small amount of mix. Not enough to really do anything with. Further, I am out of paper and plastic to tape the walls, ceiling, etc. I am not sure at this point I am going to go through this process again. As noted, I may be willing to roll that mix of Sherman Williams tinted gray (if you all think that will be OK). Otherwise, I might close up this project and buy a screen and move on. Let me know your thoughts.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken2011;

shoot me a pm... i'll see what i can do get you some mix... provided you're in the lower 48.

it's not really an issue of whether the new mix is an improvement in performance and gain... however when you push the limits... which is what SF does... then the application is critical and without some of the intimate knowledge of having done this many times... it's easy to lose site that the upgrades may go beyond the limits of most DIY'ers tackling this for the first time.

beyond that... there will be times i believe when the lumens of some pj's will exceed the gain.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:25 PM
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IMO....the primary issue here is not any fallacy inherent in the SF application, but rather the application of the SF. As PB noted, the appli,ation must be precise. Applying a too heavy coat too closely is the chief reason a undue amount of surface sheen can develop.

Sheen of any degree on a "white" screen can create a hot spot, let alone a Silver "mica infused" surface. Also, such a semi-glossy surface will tend to highlight the grain the darker Silver Metallic adds.

I'd take PB up on his offer.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 11-12-2011, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

I . Applying a too heavy coat too closely is the chief reason a undue amount of surface sheen can develop.

Sheen of any degree on a "white" screen can create a hot spot, let alone a Silver "mica infused" surface. Also, such a semi-glossy surface will tend to highlight the grain the darker Silver Metallic adds.

I'd take PB up on his offer.

i disagree. I did 6 very light dusters with the rs maxx mix. There was never a heavy coat applied and i had unwanted sheen also. I then took PB's advice and added flat upw to the mix and it resolved the issue. I have the epson 3010 which is a light cannon. So i agree with PB's assessment that these new PJ's with the high lumens is the cause. I think you guys should rethink the liquidtex titanium white and substitute it with the original UPW flat.
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:26 AM
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I was about to try an SF application, but now I'm not sure what to mix. The recipe I was going by was from 9/28. The amount of Minwax Polycrylic was 20 oz., and the Liquitex Basics Titanium White was 8 oz.

On 10/23, the Polycrylic was down to 16 oz, and the Titanium White was up to 10 oz.
Now, on 11/11 the Polycrylic is down to 12 oz. and the Titanium White has been replaced with the flat UPW.

So, I'm wondering why the amount of polycrylic keeps going down?

And, if I would be all right going with the 8oz of Titanium white?
If so, what should the amount of polycrylic be?

Sounds like I'd be safer with the flat upw, but, I've already got the titanium white.

I also have an epson 3010.
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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first let me say this... Silver Fire, since it's inception was to be a living breathing screen coating that grew, changed, and was updated by the avs diy community as the components got better or no longer existed, and just as important... as the technology of pj's moved forward.

so to be honest, it moves with the trials and tribulations and vetting of the avs diy community. i look and listen intently and make the changes that the community is asking for that are reasonable within my intimate experience of SF. what that means is that i'm well aware of the components being used even though i don't necessarily use all, some, and/or ANY of the components myself. and since i'm sharing a concept and not selling a product, i don't have time and money to perfect each change for the masses on my dime... especially since i personally don't use the diy formula.

that doesn't mean though that i don't take any issues lightly or personally. and both mm and i go WAY out of our way to help everyone regardless of how small an issue may arise.
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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mmoore2;

i got a chance to see the 3010 and 6010 at several shows at CEDIA... and every big name manufactured screen from the BD to the Severtson showed considerable graininess partly due the increased lumens. it was quite annoying.

so gain as a result of too much sheen, is not what you need... along with it's caveats.

it's quite simple, go with the 11/11/11 update.

the move back to behr upw flat and a reduction of poly are compounded to remove sheen from occurring during the application process and therefore reduce the caveats of sheen... especially when using today's higher lumen, higher contrast pjs... especially the 3010 and 6010.
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:01 PM
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Thanks for that explanation, PB! I figured it was your continued R&D leading to the changes, but it's nice to know the reasons for the changes - what they accomplish, too.

I've already picked up the behr UPW flat and will go with the 11/11/11 version.

Now my question is, which "level" - I've been going back and forth between 4.0 and 5.0, and recently thought I'd go with 4.0, because the projector central lumens value (26ftL) fit one of your recommendations I saw earlier.

I'm shooting a 106" screen from 12', and have ambient light. Not so much now, during these darkening days, but it' definitely not light-controlled.

I'm wary of going with 5.0, in case it's too dark. I really like using eco mode, because the projector is right above where I'm sitting, and that keeps it quieter.
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:49 PM
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Thanks to PB-Maxxx and MM for all your help. I've finished my first pass (I will reshoot it at some point due to some less than perferct drywall muddin...ugh)

Love my new screen, not seeing any hotspotting, but my projector (Optoma HD65) isn't super bright fwiw.

At first I was disturbed with the picture, mostly with PC screen....then I realized, I was seeing the pixels. My old BOC screen blurred enough that they didn't show, now HD images are great, but standard def look blurry to us. Overall, very happy.

Once I redo my muddin, do you two recommend I go with the new mix? I probably have enough of the old mix to do a full application, but I have no problem going with the new mix. Particularly as I do expect to upgrade the PJ next year probably.

Your thoughts and thanks again!
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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jjcirafesi;

your new sceen is just showing the limitations of your pj and content media... as a good screen should. the HD media is giving a hint of what how good it can be if you upgrade your pj and/or media content.

for now i'd correct the drywall. repaint with what you have. get your new pj. and then make your decision from there.
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Old 11-15-2011, 10:18 AM
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Is there an explanation on which level of Silverfire to go with based on different circumstances?

I have picked up my 60"x107" 6mm Sintra today ($77 plus tax if anyone needs a reference of cost). I plan on mounting in to a frame of poplar that I am using pocket hole screws to attach together and then french cleat onto the wall. My projector is the Benq W6000 that will initially be mounted on a shelf for a 19.5' throw which ProjectorCentral shows 23fl at a screen gain of 1.0. (eventually it will be mounted at its shortest throw of 14.5' which is 28fl at 1.0, but no sooner then next summer)

The 12' x 20' room is completely light controlled as the screen will actually cover the only window in the room. But I like to game and watch movies with a bit of ambient light, like a small table lamp or something, nothing overhead.

Which Silverfire mix should I go with? And is there a thread that shows step by step how to mix it and spray it down?

Thanks,
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Miataguy,

personally... i split the difference of your current pj mounted distance and your future distance... and go with SF v2.5 2.5. That give plenty of ambient performance and extra muscle as your bulb dims.
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Old 11-19-2011, 11:04 AM
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Hi PB,

I'd also like to get a recommendation on which Silver Fire version/level to use. I have a Mits HC4000 and will be going to a CIH setup. For 2.35:1 mode the screen size will be 96x41 in a darkened room. In 16:9 mode the display will be reduced to 73x41 but will also be used at times during daytime hours with only average light control (leaky wood shutters, etc).

To help brightness in 16:9 mode I will be using the zoom CIH method as opposed to the HC4000's digital AR resizing feature. I plan on getting past the HC4000's fixed lens shift by using two levels of french cleats to change the screen height.

Thanks,
Darrell
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Old 11-19-2011, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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dheflin83;

hey now! don't throw ME under the bus!

you're gonna have to help me with this one. what percentage of loss have researched when going with CIH setup such as this.

that give a ballpark fL figure to work from and based on that... i may be able to give a better recommendation.

of course, i'm sure that MM will likely read me the riot act... so you're answer is coming.
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Old 11-19-2011, 11:04 PM
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PB,

Sorry, I didn't mean to pressure anyone.

For 2.35:1 mode the zoom setting will be equivalent to a throwing a native 96x54 (110") diagonal image, but the projector only uses 822 lines to make the display come out to 96x41 (2.35:1). So in this case I'm not sure how to count the percentage of loss other than losing ~260 of the total 1080 lines.

When zooming out for a 16:9 display, the image will be 73x41 (84" diagonal) and all 1920x1080 pixels will be used. I guess in this case there is no loss from a CIH perspective.

Not sure what else you need, but here's a couple of HC4000 specs measured by Projector Central.

Lumen Output:
Sports High Brightness: 1212
Sports Normal: 705
Cinema: 560

Contrast: 4000:1 (no auto-iris)

Thanks again,
Darrell
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Old 11-20-2011, 02:16 PM
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Hi, I have finished building my screen 106" 1.78 out of 3/8 mdf board and will prime it today, I have access to the ingredients for either maxxmudd or silverfire, Is there any benefit to silverfire over maxxmudd in a completely light controlled theater room with dark walls, ceiling and carpet? Sometimes when we entertain we play pool and watch music video's in the backround but even my z2000 was okay besides the blacks on my 1.0 matt white pulldown. I am waiting for the new rs45 (hopefully in the next few weeks)
I want the best black levels without sacrificing whites or brightness, I'm tempted to go with the maxxmud LL, I'm looking for any other suggestions or recommendations by an experienced screen DIY'er that would work well. Thanks for now
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Old 11-21-2011, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnifehr View Post

Hi, I have finished building my screen 106" 1.78 out of 3/8 mdf board and will prime it today, I have access to the ingredients for either maxxmudd or silverfire, Is there any benefit to silverfire over maxxmudd in a completely light controlled theater room with dark walls, ceiling and carpet? Sometimes when we entertain we play pool and watch music video's in the backround but even my z2000 was okay besides the blacks on my 1.0 matt white pulldown. I am waiting for the new rs45 (hopefully in the next few weeks)
I want the best black levels without sacrificing whites or brightness, I'm tempted to go with the maxxmud LL, I'm looking for any other suggestions or recommendations by an experienced screen DIY'er that would work well. Thanks for now

With a RS-45, and a ideally suited Room, Black levels with RS-MMud won't be any issue. If 3D viewing is on the agenda, RS-MM LL is advised, as is placing your JVC within the 11.5' range.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:15 PM
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Thanks for the reply, would you recommend any of the silverfire mixes over the RS-MM LL or will the MM LL perform just as well in my enviroment?
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnifehr View Post

Thanks for the reply, would you recommend any of the silverfire mixes over the RS-MM LL or will the MM LL perform just as well in my enviroment?


No.

Yes.

That's why you need it. Already have great contrast...simply need a higher gain (3D), very light gray to round things out optimally.

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Old 11-21-2011, 10:32 PM
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Well I finished spraying 5 lighter coats of the RS-MM LL with a automotive type HVLP gun with a 1.7mm tip at 60 psi in my shop, seemed to go okay, no runs and no dust in it. Now the challenge will be bringing into the basement and hanging it. Is it normal to have a orange peel look? I tryed spraying at different pressures and different thickneses but it just don't go on like an automotive base coat clear coat system. Hopefully in the morning it will have settled, other wise a roller would have worked just as well.
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:32 AM
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As the screen cures, "light" orange peel effect does tighten up to the degree of how profound it is....or is not actually.

When spraying...even light coats, orange peel usually comes from the droplets being just a wee bit larger than desired. If the paint is correctly thinned, then the only way it occurs is when the sprayer is held too close to the surface. Even when moving at "Duster Speed", that will result in a bigger "splat" .....that when combined with other subsequent "splats", builds up to present that slightly bumpy texture.

Moving too slowly AND too closely, and you'd now be complaining about runs or sagging. Since your not, distance has to be the culprit.

And BTW, rolling on a loose, wet paint under less than ideal conditions can produce "worse' orange peel, even with low nap roller covers. By spraying you only increased your potential for a much better....not a "as good as" or worse surface.

But give it as little time to dry out more. heat and good drying conditions are an important part of it all. That's one last potential factor as well. In a colder, or damper (...or both...) situation, the lack of a quicker evaporation allows paint to congeal, and dry unevenly. That's why you see instructions that limit painting to within a certain temperature range. Of course I don't know what temps/humidity conditions you maintained in your shop while painting...most probably it wasn't as big a factor in it all as that durn 'ol distance thingee.

So....getting

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Old 11-22-2011, 09:28 AM
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Went and looked this morning before going to work and yes it looked much better and uniform,almost no orange peel now only very slight, I thought with all the silver added it would have more of a grey sheen but it looks very white.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnifehr View Post

...I thought with all the silver added it would have more of a grey sheen but it looks very white.

that often the misconception. it's a mostly white dedicated screen... only betta.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dheflin83 View Post

PB,

Sorry, I didn't mean to pressure anyone.

For 2.35:1 mode the zoom setting will be equivalent to a throwing a native 96x54 (110") diagonal image, but the projector only uses 822 lines to make the display come out to 96x41 (2.35:1). So in this case I'm not sure how to count the percentage of loss other than losing ~260 of the total 1080 lines.

When zooming out for a 16:9 display, the image will be 73x41 (84" diagonal) and all 1920x1080 pixels will be used. I guess in this case there is no loss from a CIH perspective.

Not sure what else you need, but here's a couple of HC4000 specs measured by Projector Central.

Lumen Output:
Sports High Brightness: 1212
Sports Normal: 705
Cinema: 560

Contrast: 4000:1 (no auto-iris)

Thanks again,
Darrell

I did some more research using Coderguy's Projector Calculator with an HC4000. It looks like a screen with 1.6x gain will be a good compromise between my two CIH modes. Both modes assume using the HC4000's Cinema ("best") lamp modes and a 12.5' throw distance using manual zooming to resize the display.

2.35:1 Mode (start with 16:9 diag=110" then mask 34% of lines to get 2.35:1):
1.38x zoom
best low lamp: 16 fL initially, 12 fL after 500 hrs bulb wear
best high lamp: 21 fL initially, 15 fL after 500 hrs bulb wear

16:9 Mode (diag=84", uses all pixels):
1.03x zoom
best low lamp: 32 fL initially, 24 fL after 500 hrs bulb wear
best high lamp: 41 fL initially, 30 fL after 500 hrs bulb wear


I realize the 16:9 mode is pretty hot, but this is where I'll typically have moderate ambient lighting, but I'm not sure how many fLs I need to compensate.

I would appreciate anyone's feedback on the goal of 1.6x screen gain being the best compromise between the two CIH modes, and what the best paint mix to use is.

Thanks,
Darrell
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Old 11-22-2011, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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dheflin83;

the lower figures are the approx figures i got using projector central.
however, phewy on the 1.6x gain figures... i got 15 in 2.35 and 30 in 16.9 with just 1.1gain... and that was assuming a 15-20% loss in 2.35 if the pj was mounted from approx 12ft.

given those figures... you could easily do SF V2.5 2.0 in 2.35 at 110' and light up the 16.9 84" like a christmas tree.
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