Silver Fire mix - Page 48 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:53 AM
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Start this out with i am total noob and doing research into building my HT. As many members i have some what of a budget/what wife will let me get away with. My viewing room is 21'x14', i will be using 1/2 the room as the HT. so roughly 13' and some change to throw. The wall in question is 8' heigh and about 147" wide. The projector i am liking to most as of now is the panny ae-7000

Is there any reason everyone is masking out screens opposed to painting the entire wall? I will be watching a mixture of HD tv and bluray movies. i like the wide 2.35:1 look when its avaiable, but not really feeling the empty space on a masked screen when in 16:9.

so what im getting at is would painting the entire wall give me what im after?
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:57 AM
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Hey! Hello redstopgreengo12 ! Welcome to AVS's DIY Screen Forum!

First off, the answer to your question. While painting the entire Wall can be attractive while no image is being shown, when/if any degree of Ambient Light is washed against the Screen wall, non-PJ illuminated areas will pick up and reflect such other light, brightening the screen wall, and lessening the quality of the perceived Contrast on the Screen. The reflective effect of the Screen's output itself is usually limited to the actual screen area, but should the Screen's output go on to reflect off an adjoining surface, and then be returned to the Screen and/or the screen wall, both will react. The Screen's Contrast will nose dive, and the Screen Wall will light up...something you just don't want to have happen.

A defining Black Screen Boarder always helps, but...if dealing with a truly light controlled area... the adjoining, properly painted wall / ceiling areas do not reflect much if any light from whatever source is present, they will show up as being Black. Therein...so will the screen wall area outside the actual illuminated Image area. But......all that HAS to happen as stated. Omit one aspect, and none of the others can really manage to compensate. Something will change...and usually it's a loss of perceived Contrast on the Screen.

That then is why most opt to either have the wall behind a Screen be dark...or Black, or in the least utilize a Black Surrounding Border. "Floating Screens" that have no Boarders almost always have a totally Black, or very dark colored wall behind them. In a worst case example, where the wall is "NOT" dark, the presence of the defining Black Boarder around the Screen acts as a reference for the Brain to compare the Blackest Black in the image against the obviously Black Black of the Border. That will make the Brain "think" the Blacks within the projected image are blacker than they actually are.

One of the compelling reasons Silver Fire Exists is to help mitigate the loss of perceived Contrast on-screen by offering a infinitely variable degree of resistance to the washing out of black levels when ambient light butts in on the Show.

So onward into the Breach of your situation.

Your limiting your size options by designating 13'-6" as a maximum Throw distance. can you not still focus the Seating / decor within the 14' x 14' area but place the PJ back just a tad bit to 16'-2" ?

Reason?

With the Panny and it's lens memory, you could paint a 143" x 60" area, the 60" height being centered on the wall between the Floor and Ceiling. That would be a 152" diagonal 2.35:1 image area.

In 16:9 you'd achieve 60" x 107" (122" Diagonal) requiring only two simple 60" x 22.5" Velvet or ProtoStar covered Panels for Side Masking. These can be very simple affairs, that are very easy to snap into place when needed, and look very good doing it.

Curtains at each side that pull inward to mask off the unused 2.35:1 areas would also usually work, but you have so little width to work with, your available working Screen area would plummet

I really can not advise the "Paint your Whole Wall" thingee because simply put, you don't have enough Room width or depth to do much of anything big enough to utilize.

With what I describe, and using the Panny, your Image height will never change, and the Side masking is a snap to accommodate. Just be certain to use a non-reflective dark Color for the Side Walls close to the Screen edges, and you'll have something many desire and long for, but that few can ideally accomplish.

You'll need to consider SF v2.5 1.0 as your Paint mix, and be certain the pre-finish on the wall is as absolutely as smooth as you can get it.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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Old 02-22-2012, 01:32 PM
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Thanks for the quick reply. i kind of thought that was the reason people where not painting entire walls.

unfortunatly the room i am setting up (my room) is limited to the 14' width of the room. on either of the longer ends there is a fireplace and a window(which will be shaded) so i have to set up viewing on the shorter length of the room. but it is what it is, and im happy just to have a room. obviously i can not produce the largest image,not really sure what my limit will be at that distance.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:02 PM
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UPDATE:
I first made and painted my SILVER FIRE 2.0 screen 3 years ago. I have don 4 or 5 touch ups with the prevail sprayers. (works great). And now I have decided to do a whole freshen up. My wife and I both smoke and used to smoke in the room with the screen. We had tried cleaning it with a magic eraser. That works well, but leaves some streaks which drove me nuts. We are no longer smoking in the room at new house. So I figured its time.
I still have 1/2 a gallon of screen paint left from original mix. Grabbed the squirle cage mixer and all is great. Storage can now has a pin hole at bottom will need to get new can.
Wagner fired right up. (only used it one other time to paint some shelves white).
Did a full scrub down 3 times then sanded over the touched up spots. Washed one more time. And now have applied about 6 duster coats.
Looking like the screen I made 3 years ago.

SO I DO HAVE A QUESTION: WITH THE MULTIPLE COATS FROM START 3 YEARS AGO AS WELL AS WHAT WAS ADDED TODAY, AM I LOOSING THE LIGHT FUSION EFFECT?
I did think about replacing the white board with new, but decided against it only because of the weather.

And as always I would like to give special thanks to Mississippi Man and PB for all of their work and time that they give us for free. All of the work, money and effort I spent 3 years ago is still giving.
I will post some Superbowl pics later when screen is dry and up.
Thanks,
Pictures Links: (Hope this helps someone else make their decision)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2015.40.06.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2015.40.31.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2016.42.29.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2016.43.18.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2016.43.09.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2017.21.39.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2017.21.26.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/34810261/2013-02-03%2017.21.56.jpg
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:43 AM
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Noob with questions. Have perused these forums for quite some time here. Bought an 8350 for a room approx 16' wide by 30' long. Room has a pool table in the rear half so 15'+/- for HT. Have already made a screen with Menards melamine coated hardboard using MM for ambient light. I'm a weekend wood worker with an hvlp sprayer and pretty good spraying technique. For polyurethane only it seems. My screen is plagued with spray pattern where it didn't even out. That said, I think that maybe I selected the wrong mix. I'm pleased with the image, but think maybe the SF would be better suited. To the details, my screen is in a "cove" under a soffit. It's about a 98" diag. Walls are flat darkish blue gray color. There is some ambient light if I want it and 3 windows with blackout shades. PJ is mounted about 15.5 feet back. Question time. What mix of SF would be recommended with my very vague and somewhat poor description of my room? And also, if I'm wrong I apologize, is SF rollable? I ask simply put because with paint my technics and results are far better this way as opposed to spraying.

Thank you guys so much for the time and effort you put into helping us non professionals out.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malsip72 View Post

UPDATE:
I first made and painted my SILVER FIRE 2.0 screen 3 years ago. I have don 4 or 5 touch ups with the prevail sprayers. (works great). And now I have decided to do a whole freshen up. My wife and I both smoke and used to smoke in the room with the screen. We had tried cleaning it with a magic eraser. That works well, but leaves some streaks which drove me nuts. We are no longer smoking in the room at new house. So I figured its time.
I still have 1/2 a gallon of screen paint left from original mix. Grabbed the squirrel cage mixer and all is great. Storage can now has a pin hole at bottom will need to get new can.
Wagner fired right up. (only used it one other time to paint some shelves white).
Did a full scrub down 3 times then sanded over the touched up spots. Washed one more time. And now have applied about 6 duster coats.
Looking like the screen I made 3 years ago.

SO I DO HAVE A QUESTION: WITH THE MULTIPLE COATS FROM START 3 YEARS AGO AS WELL AS WHAT WAS ADDED TODAY, AM I LOOSING THE LIGHT FUSION EFFECT?
I did think about replacing the white board with new, but decided against it only because of the weather.

And as always I would like to give special thanks to Mississippi Man and PB for all of their work and time that they give us for free. All of the work, money and effort I spent 3 years ago is still giving.
I will post some Superbowl pics later when screen is dry and up.
Thanks,

malsip72


Thanks for sharing, and especially thanks for showing that Silver Fire paint can be stored (properly) and re-used after extended periods of time. (3 years! ;eek: ) The fact is, the preponderance of Polyurethane and the quality of Acrylic Paints used are what contributes to this.

As for the "Fusion" effect, since you are using a "White" board, the only real additional effect you get aside from the rearward "White" surface stopping absorption comes from the translucency and specific thickness of the SF paint itself. You have what is commonly known these days as "1st Surface White Fusion"...which is in every since the retention of as much light as possible that passes through the darker SF paint. The Painted surface will still slightly "glow" because it is after all slightly translucent, although not nearly as much as the original "Mirrored Light Fusion" screens.

Because you sprayed, and especially since you used the "Duster" technique, I am certain you have not applied so much paint as to create a diffusion and overt absorption of the incoming light. In any case, as the new paint cures, it hardens and becomes slightly less abortive.

But your own eyes are the final judge, and if you yourself are seeing no lessening of image quality, well there is the answer you seek. Enjoy! And thanks again for sharing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by thahorrah View Post

Noob with questions. Have perused these forums for quite some time here. Bought an 8350 for a room approx 16' wide by 30' long. Room has a pool table in the rear half so 15'+/- for HT. Have already made a screen with Menards melamine coated hardboard using MM for ambient light. I'm a weekend wood worker with an hvlp sprayer and pretty good spraying technique. For polyurethane only it seems. My screen is plagued with spray pattern where it didn't even out. That said, I think that maybe I selected the wrong mix. I'm pleased with the image, but think maybe the SF would be better suited. To the details, my screen is in a "cove" under a soffit. It's about a 98" diag. Walls are flat darkish blue gray color. There is some ambient light if I want it and 3 windows with blackout shades. PJ is mounted about 15.5 feet back. Question time. What mix of SF would be recommended with my very vague and somewhat poor description of my room? And also, if I'm wrong I apologize, is SF rollable? I ask simply put because with paint my technics and results are far better this way as opposed to spraying.

Thank you guys so much for the time and effort you put into helping us non professionals out.

Hello thahorrah!

Welcome aboard AVS and the DIY Screen Forum in particular.

I have a mixed bag of impressions / feelings going on here. First,I applaud your choice of MM (MississippiMud or RS-MaxxMudd?) as a viable Screen choice. But at the same time I'm concerned about your stated issues as far as having an observable spray pattern. A sprayed MM mix should be among the easiest of applications to avoid such "patterning" issues. So that would point to both spray technique and specific HVLP Gun settings as well as the consistency and viscosity of the "MM" mix itself.

Also, any "MM" mix that would have ambient light properties would involve the use of small amounts of Silver Metallic, or in the very least the introduction of a small amount of neutral Gray additive. To go further with is, I'd need to know exactly what your "MM" mix contains and in what proportions. And also what type of HVLP Gun you are using and at what settings, if such are indeed adjustable.

I'm fairly certain your issues can be easily corrected, and unless the "MM"mix you used is under performing in the ambient light department, some simple adjustments in content and spraying technique should resolve any / all issues without your resulting to any wholesale changes.

So ante up some more details and we'll get you formily back on tract toward having a great screen!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 06-04-2013, 11:33 AM
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MississippiMan, wow you're quick on the reply.

I used the RS-MaxxMudd (for moderate ambient light) in the exact mix detailed. I confess that I was using a generic hvlp sprayer that I use for finishing wood projects with the only "setting", if you will, is the screw adjustment for flow of liquid. Admittedly I SHOULD have taken more care and gone with a recommended spray gun, but it was what I had already on hand and also was my first attempt. My thought was to give it a try and see what happened/how I liked it, and figured that I had only used one side, leaving another for future trials should I want that.

My issue with the patterning is that you can see where the spray was applied. Seemingly that when moving to the next row, you could see a discernible line between where the "center" of the spray is on each row. It's not necessarily apparent all the time, but the white ice of a hockey game really states this in a glaring fashion. I sprayed it with the panel lying down thinking that should my mix be too thin, runs wouldn't run down and rather even out.

My question as to going to SF leans toward getting more black out of the blacks. I thought I understood that the SF also handled ambient light while adding to the blacks and colors in general. If I'm wrong I take being told so pretty well. I guess my next question goes to what would the pros recommend? I really do not use any lights while watching, but do get some light during the daytime via not completely blacked out windows.

Im not against wholesale changes as i like to tinker. I really should have bothered to ask before jumping in head first, but i AM a school of hard knocks kind of guy. Ask my wife. ;-) I mentioned rolling because I am pretty adept at that. That said I'm not averse to spraying again. Especially under the fine toutelage of one like yourself!

Really to the point, are there any inherent andvantages of RS-MM over SF of vise versa?

Thanks again!
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:59 AM
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thahorrah!,

SF will give the 8350 significant Black level boosting, even at the lighter 2.0 / 3.0 levels

However spraying remains a must.

Your described patterning issue speaks of a too narrow fan pattern, and one whose center is measurably heavier than the edges. With such equipment, more distance from the surface, combined with more ovlerlap is the obvious solution. (...well, obvious to me, but wadda I know from nuthin' .... wink.gif )

In a perfect world, you'd use SF 2.0 ap0plied with a Gracco 2900 (No Name) and a 1.5 mm accessory Needle. You would use the oft prescribed "Duster Technique" and you would spray the coats with the Screen in the Vertical position. Horizontal is a "Roll on" method designed to do exactly what you were wanting to avoid. When you spray, any technique (...or lack thereof...) that would cause such issues as you related would mean things were not being done correctly. So the answer in that regard is to "do it right", not try to make exception for doing it "wrong"..

So overall, I see no roadblocks up ahead on your route to DIY Screen Nirvana. You can try to use the Gun you used last, after we/ you try adjusting it as well as your technique out on something disposable. If it falls short, there is a easy to use $60.00 solution waiting in the wings. But most importantly, I expect this time you'll abandon the "School of Hard Knocks" approach and instead aspire to absorb the benefits of applied studies that come from the Institutions of Higher Learning. cool.gif

tongue.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif

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Old 06-04-2013, 12:20 PM
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MississippiMan

Absolutely. A single failure usually is enough for me, even if said failure is really only obvious to me. I'm one who takes pride in my work and was only mildly pleased with my initial result. Rest assured, that advice is taken whole heartedly.

Am I correct in inferring a recommendation of SF2.0 over the RS-MM? This isn't an issue for me, just want to start getting needed materials before this weekend. All paints have been readily available where I am.

Update.

After looking at the 2900 on my phone, I'd say my hvlp is very similar, ill stop in at lowes and compare for certain. Mine is from Rocker, a woodworkers supply company.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:43 PM
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SF 2.0

Verify all ingredients are available. All components too (Nylon Filters - extra Gallon Can - etc.)

List the mfg / Model of your HVLP...and if it's compressor powered, type hose . Filter, Needle size.

Above all else, don't be tempted to rush into starting until all is settled.

Let's get everything in order, down pat, and thoroughly understood. Far better to work yer arse off ahead of time and simply coast through the actual Screen build.

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Old 06-04-2013, 12:55 PM
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Ok, after comparing my sprayer to my dad's graco 2900, I have come to the conclusion that they are the same thing, without mine having a name brand. Same adjustments, same hose, same bottle and sprayer, same-ish blower (same air flow), same spray pattern adjustment, same 1.5mm tip.

I didn't mean to convey that I was rushing into this. Only saying that my weekend is busy and that I'd like to check on availability of supplies before then.

After watching the straying demonstration again, I can safely conclude that I was spraying much too closely and at much too slow of a pace. Before I spray on my screen again, I WILL be spending time with some scrap, honing my technique!

Next, here is my space, shot with my iphone, so image quality is of course not what it could be.

The lighting of course is tinting it yellow, but you can see the cove that I'm working with, and the blue walls. The final mount of the screen will be centered on the wall.

Finally, here is what I was using to temporarily hold the screen.

My plan was to use a similar build, rabbeted wood covered in velvet, mitered or butt jointed together. As my wall is not perfectly straight, I was thinking about not mounting the screen to the frame, but securing the frame to the wall and having the screen "float" in the rabbeted area. My reasoning is that i like the ideal of the 1/4" melamine coated hardboard being "directly" on the wall, not spaced out like it would be if it was mounted on rear frame. Any thoughts/concerns on this?
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:22 AM
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A Floating screen will present a drop off at the edge that can prevent paint from applying evenly along that edge. If your going to place trim on top of the edge of the screen however, at least 2.5" wide, then that presents no issue.

Apply your paint coats as Dusters and you'll be OK.

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Old 06-06-2013, 08:31 AM
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My plan was to take screen to my spray area and apply all duster coats. My frame would be 2.5" wide with rabbets 1/2" in and that would be the overlap on the screen, with 2" of the frame going directly to the wall. That's why I was calling it floating, as the screen would only be "anchored" in the 1/2" rabbets surrounding it.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:49 AM
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Hey, the Behr 1850 is no longer available in Canada. Is there a good alternative I can use for the SF mix? Thanks
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:04 PM
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MississippiMan

Thanks for the wisdom! Just applied my last coat. It's amazing the results you can achieve when you actually listen to those with far more experience. I'll be looking forward to final results and will pass sling photos when I get them and have a chance to.
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thahorrah View Post

MississippiMan

Thanks for the wisdom! Just applied my last coat. It's amazing the results you can achieve when you actually listen to those with far more experience. I'll be looking forward to final results and will pass sling photos when I get them and have a chance to.


What he said. And well said, although he can say it, and those of us who it is referring to cannot..... lest we be considered too overt in our promoting such advice.

It's a quandary fer shur. How far down the path can you lead someone without others feeling you are either dragging them, kidnapping them, or having them submit to your will, Sometimes, they even call the Cops!

And, as they lead you away...the "Victim" is protesting; " No Foul! I was happy to be led!".

That's depressing. frown.gif I'm going to get a Guinness Black Lager. biggrin.gif

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