Silver Fire mix - AVS Forum
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Materials available at Michaels, Hobby Lobby, Dick Blicks, Home Depot, Menards, or most any Artist Supply or Hobby Stores.

*Last and Final update/revision - 11/11/2011

SILVER FIRE V2.5

(Color Components)
100ml - filtered/distilled water for rinsing color components from utensils
50ml - Liquitex Basics - Napthol Crimson Red
25ml - Liquitex Basics - Phthalocyanine Green
16ml - Liquitex Basics - UltraMarine Blue
9ml - Liquitex Basics - Cadmium Yellow - Deep Hue

(Viscosity Components)
16 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin Finish
24 - 36 oz. Distilled or Filtered water*

(Reflective Base Components)*
Silver Fire v2.5 hue (in ounces – oz) 1.0 2.0 3.0 4.0 5.0
Rustoleum Metallic Accents – White Pearl* 20 21 22 23 24
Liquitex Basics Silver 20 21 22 23 24
Behr 1850 UPW Flat 10 10 10 10 10
Liquitex Basics Gold 1.50 1.75 2.00 2.25 2.50

* Rustoleum Metallic Accents - White Pearl is currently found only at Menards or online.

*the 'base' & 'viscosity' components are to mixed separately from the 'colorant' components.

*Graco electric sprayer starts with 24oz. of water mininum. Wagner DD - 24oz minimum. Wagner CS - 36oz minimum.



-------------------------


For historical records..
The following is the last and final update of the original Silver Fire.
As of 2/1/2011 it has been replaced in it's entirety by Silver Fire V2 above.

"SILVER FIRE"

(base components)
30 oz. Delta Ceramcoat Pearl #02601
15 oz. Delta Ceramcoat Silver Metallic #02603
10 oz. Behr Interior UPW Flat #1850 (or Exterior #4050)
6 oz. Folk Art - Champagne Metallic

(viscosity components)
24 oz. Minwax Polycrylic - Satin Finish @Michaels & Home Depot
18 - 24 oz. Distilled or Filtered water**

(color components)
50 ml water to rinse the color pigments from the measuring utensils.
20 ml - Liquitex 'Matt' Basics - Naphthol Crimson - (PR170)
8 ml - Liquitex 'Matt' Basics - Phthalocyanine Green - (PG7)
5 ml - Liquitex 'Matt' Basics - Phthalocyanine Blue
5 ml - Liquitex 'Matt' Basics - Cadmium Yellow Deep Hue (PY 83)


--------------

measurement utensils....
they are from kitchen aid... the measurements are 15ml, 7.4ml, 5ml, 2.5ml, and 1.25ml.
using a straight edge to level of the top... it's very easy to get precisely the exact measurement every time...



-------------

here's any example of how the color components and completed mix should look.



on the left is the 'color components' before it's added.
on the right is a completed silver fire sl mix.

-------------

directly before using this application... always strain the completed mix.
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:28 PM
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Looks great, PB. I'm looking forward to seeing the latest developments in this mix!

Garry
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:40 PM
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Thank you PB for making the change and in disgiuishing the DIY from commerical mixes now more clearly. Much appreciated.
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:29 PM
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Thanks PB.

Looks like there were a few changes to the mix too
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Old 11-20-2006, 03:14 PM
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PB_Maxxx

Could you give the amount of color components to use,
for regular Silver Fire, is that 3 oz of each of those,
or is it broken down in ml, sorry I am slightly confused.
I am using RS-Maxxmudd, and could stand it to be
a little darker. screen shot you posted of the comparison
looks good.
Thanks for the help

Scott E
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Old 11-20-2006, 08:39 PM
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PB_Maxxx

Thanks I will give it a try this weekend.
Where can I find Windsor & Newton green.

thanks for sharing

Scott E
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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micheals, hobby lobby, dick blick, or any college art supply store.
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:09 AM
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How does this mix compare with the RSM mix under dark, controlled lighting?

Moe
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:08 AM
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PB

Do you really find that the Windsor & Newton green actually works any better than the Delta pthalo green?

I have found no differance at all when trying indentical mixes with this being the only change.

"The only reason you're still conscious is because I don't want to carry you" - Jack Bauer
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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biglyle,

everywhere i looked here in the states... the delta phthalo green was extremely hard to find. 1 out about 10 stores in my area had it. so in some ways... it was lack of delta thalo green that kept me from keeping everything uniform. as you know, getting this diy mix to it's simplest form was part of the goal.

now in terms of performance... yes i do think the w&n thalo green does a better job than the delta thalo green.
i guess the best way to describe it would be... i found more of a slight green deciency when using the delta thalo green.

one of the simplier tests i do with a color is to see what it looks like when you run a little water to it. the delta thalo green remained fairly dark and the range of the diluted color was fairly limited. the w&n had a much broader range of greens. obviously that's not scientific in any way, shape, or form... and it points more to transparency and color purity than anything else.

but if you take a look at the dnp thread on the screens forum when some of our (and i include you in this with your biylyle mix) original rgb formulas were compared to the dnp... the first things that jumps out at me is the lack of our mix's ability to produce green when the lights go on.

obviously, i don't have any science to prove it one way or another... just what is visually to me, screenshots, and an overall gut feeling on it.
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:21 PM
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Does this have to be painted over a mirror or can it be applied to a white substrate like Sintra?

Moe
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:23 PM
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With the formula listed above. Is it viscious enough to be sprayed as is, or do I need to add more water? I plan on spraying and am wondering if this formula is spayable, or if this is the roller formula.
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Old 11-21-2006, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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zip,

the sintra works great. i personally use it all the time. i also do not personally feel this mix requires a mirror. every single screenshot i have ever shown here on avsforum is without the use of a mirror.

blanco,

you may or may not need to add water for right viscosity for your particular sprayer. it is all dependent on your sprayer, spray pressure, nozzle size, and spray fan. always test on a sample before starting in on your screen.
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

if you take a look at the original post, you can see that in ambient conditions silver fire has a greater amount of contrast and holds it's image better than rsm.

and in controlled conditions the two virtually dissappear with the except of better black levels going silver fire.

So, the Silver mix has the same white level performance once the lights go out but deeper blacks than RSM? Are they both about the same gain?

Moe
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:03 PM
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I've been lurking here for a *long* time, and it seems (intuitively) that pb is onto something exciting. The physics of it just feel right.

I'll be trying the SF mix on my new dedicated theatres' screenwall. Finished size will be 10-12 feet wide. The final skimcoat of finishing mud was floated on the wall this morning for that smoooooooth substrate. 2 coats primer (200 grit finish), 2 or 3 coats SF (rolled, sorry). and a week or 2 cure time, then I'll post some shots... (note to self - must start construction thread)

It is worth noting that the clerk at Michaels looked at me like I was about to mix explosives (Yes, I'm mixing them all together. No, I'm not telling you why muahahaha...)

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Old 11-25-2006, 09:59 PM
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bittrix,

If your "Rollin", be sure to study up on the 'Rolling Tutorial' in Tiddler's thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=708009

Post *8

"SF" is a mix that is very thin in consistancy when mixed correctly, and your attempting a very large surface. The use of 3/16" Nap 9" Finish rollers is highly advisable. You'll need to have a plan of application that lets you produce sweeping strokes that thin out at appogee, but still carry enough paint to allow for a returning overlapping stroke. Working the edges with a light but increased pressure to flatten out and spread out any build up. Several light coats....no different than any correct "Finish painting" directions.

Just ask for advice if uncertain about anything. Ask not, and your end result can be judged only on the merits of your own abilities and intuition. Ask first...., and you can blame someone else.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 11-26-2006, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Ask first...., and you can blame someone else.

All advice gratefully accepted. I understand you've done one or two of these before

I gotta say... the whole AVS Forum has been like a masterclass to me in theatre design and construction. Every part of the project has it's own little world of expertise and experience; with acknowledged masters, old hands and "adventurers" selflessly sharing their secrets.

I don't want to stray from the topic at hand, but... I've watched the ongoing (and sometimes nasty) debate over commercial vs DIY... and have come to the conclusion that people like mm and pb should be thanked publicly for sharing their hard-earned knowledge and experience. Knowledge is a fluid that is hard to flask. Sure, some DIY stuff has made it into commercial products, but commercial products have always inspired DIY'ers as well. I cheerfully benefit from that arrangement.

(can you tell that drywall dust makes me wax poetic)

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Old 11-26-2006, 07:03 AM
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Good stuff pb_m!

Any chance you could take some more pics under different light conditions and viewing angles? Also, do you have a feel for what the gain might be on the L or SL? Which of the three versions is shown above? Any sparkles or other negative attributes with this formulation?

I thought I had my mind made up to go with the DW Wilsonart laminate, but since I do have times where ambient lighting will be an issue, I'm starting to think something like your silver might be the best all around solution.

Thanks for all of your efforts!!!
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Old 11-26-2006, 08:19 AM
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If ambient light is an issue, then by all means consider a true AL DIY application that addresses such. The DG laminate would offer up a little assistance in that respect, but would be more dependent of the amount of available PJ lumens to compenstate, whereas a AL Screen will optimize the use of such projected light while effectively rejecting (or muting) the effect of incoming sideways ambient light.

The DW or Sintra both would serve as good substrates. So would a nice smooth wall.

To quote James T. Kirk;
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

If ambient light is an issue, then by all means consider a true AL DIY application that addresses such. The DG laminate would offer up a little assistance in that respect, but would be more dependent of the amount of available PJ lumens to compenstate, whereas a AL Screen will optimize the use of such projected light while effectively rejecting (or muting) the effect of incoming sideways ambient light.

The DW or Sintra both would serve as good substrates. So would a nice smooth wall.

I jumped on the JVC RS1 pre-buy and am looking forward to getting my new PJ in Feb. It's advertised lumens are ~700 @ D65 (maybe 450 or so at low bulb setting), and 15,000:1 CR (no DI). I'm going to be using this in a medium colored room, fair light control, 96" screen, seating at about 10' with the PJ mounted about the same. I'll also have some extra seating off to the side @ ~40* to the screen. I really don't want to see screen texture, this drives me nuts as an image is panned across the screen. At times I may have a little light spilling into the room from an adjoining room while entertaining. During the day there will certainly be some ambient light in the room (although I don't plan on using the PJ during the day very often).

I think my PJ will have good enough CR to pull off the white laminate, but since I will have a little light spilling in at times, I'm starting to think a silver such as this Silver Fire might be a better fit. How much will I gain and lose with the SF over the white laminate?

What do you think based on the info?



BTW, What is "AL" and "Sintra"?
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Old 11-26-2006, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
BTW, What is "AL" and "Sintra"?

AL = Ambient Light
Sintra = foamboard = closed-cell plastic foam sheet. Comes in different thicknesses. Usually used for mounting posters or photos, but is also a good substrate for cut vinyl in outdoor applications. It is very lightweight, has a very nice matte surface, is easy to cut, and is fairly dent resistant.

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Old 11-26-2006, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bittrix View Post

AL = Ambient Light
Sintra = foamboard = closed-cell plastic foam sheet. Comes in different thicknesses. Usually used for mounting posters or photos, but is also a good substrate for cut vinyl in outdoor applications. It is very lightweight, has a very nice matte surface, is easy to cut, and is fairly dent resistant.

Excellent, thank you!
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Old 11-27-2006, 05:36 AM
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Would it be possible for you to post a couple of pics comparing the SF to a matte white screen under dark and light conditions as well as straight on and at an angle? A shot of the two without an image under bright light to show the shade of the SF would be very beneficial as well.

Also, which of the three SF formulations is being pictured?



I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far... keep up the great work!!!
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet1 View Post

Would it be possible for you to post a couple of pics comparing the SF to a matte white screen under dark and light conditions as well as straight on and at an angle? A shot of the two without an image under bright light to show the shade of the SF would be very beneficial as well.

Also, which of the three SF formulations is being pictured?



I'm very impressed with what I've seen so far... keep up the great work!!!

MM
It's been a couple weeks and I'm just wondering if there has been any time to get the side by side shots of the BFLFDIY or Delta Moon AKA Silver Fire.

The reason I ask is I have read a couple other similar requests made over the weekend this morning and I thought well maybe I should bring this request back up to the front. It seemed to be an ideal screen to compare on as it was made from the older style DIY mix and in a friends house that could be accessed to do the testing.

See thread: post #73
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=743287&page=3

If I remember right I was asking to see a side by side with the mix just sprayed over a white base not a mirror and then also a close neutral gray poly blend. That would be about the same range of gray as the BFLFDIY. I was hoping for those three together in the same images straight on and off axis and with and without the modest ambient lights not the full on the screen lights shown in some of the pictures.

I also made a similar request back in a thread concerning a small loft screen for a Sharp XR10X


It's the only way I know of to even begin to understand and explain the properties of BFLFDIY. The only other way would be to make one or a test panel myself and test that in this manner. The problems being it has to be sprayed in a special manner. And I don't know if I could hit that on a first try. Its always easier to compare the simple to the more complex.


Bud

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Old 11-27-2006, 08:28 AM
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A little "Off Topic" comment. (PLEASE don't report me PB_ ! )

I gotta teach ya how to Miter or Butt joint those corners, PB.

I recently bought a simple yellow, inexpensive "Stanley" Miter Box /Hand Saw combo so as to return to doing all corners in a "Mitered" fashion. It's so much finer looking...., but oh so much more difficult to wrap Black Velvet around those 45 degree edges.

But the end results make it look as if one really made a conspicious effort toward having done a quality job. (...very important when your Peers come by your "pride & Joy" to inspect your work...) Butt Joints done perfectly with BV can be virutally invisible, but Miter Corners ARE invisible when done well.

A "More On Topic" item.

I made an effort to find both Sintra and DW Laminate this last week, and unfortunately came up with Nada but 4' x 8' material in the Sintra and nothing at 3 HDs as far as DW. They did not even have DW on their Color Chip Sheet! (...although it was in thier book.) Special orders for 5' x 10' stock are 3-4 weeks out from HD or Lowes, and a solid 4 weeks direct from the Mfgs for Sintra and other Plastic Sheeting (Mirrors included)

Being restrained to producing a Screen that measures under 100" is not my cup of Tea. It's only fortunate the last 2 screens were both out of necessity in the 92" diagonal range. But a 4 week wait? "#$%*&*$%^#$&2#^" !!! That's not condusive toward ANYBODY's desire to get something done when they want to do it.

When attempting the construction of a DIY Ambient Light capable screen with SF or any other similar application, the need to restrain the diagonal size does reap one the benefit of keeping as high a luminosity as possible on the screen's surface. Much brightness is usually lost with many AL applications due to the necessary attenuation of all light that strikes the screen's surface when it is anything less than a 1.0 - 1.4 gain surface. So as far as maximizing the light produced by a PJ, smaller is better. Usually.....unless you can find a surface that exhibits a better "reflectivity quotent" without also producing Hot Spotting or a noticable sheening effect when bright whites or colors are present.

The addition of a Poly-Based Top Coat furthers the advantage SF offers, and works to allow the use of a lower Lumen PJ than many owners would normally be able to avail themselves. Loss of viewing cone is not an issue if the right balance between reflectivity and the type of Room application is reached.

I'll be pursuing the creation of several "Non-Mirror" applications soon, wth the use of at least 4 different substrates, including both of the aforementioned materials as well as Sheetrock surfaces. Hopefully the presenting of such on this thread will help others see a wide selection of both applications and the end results.

These will not be "tests", but rather real life examples for others to use as they wish to either suggest, a course to take, justify the selection of such, or help realize what different applications the SF can be applied to.

To Bud:

I just saw your repeated request when I posted this missive. later this week I will indeed return to the "loft" with the Sharp SR10X to effect those screenies and a simple comparison test. That "DIY" formulated BF-Lite screen is in fact painted over a White "Kilz' primed drywall substrate. I'll have to check on getting a quart of neutral Grey mixed up though. Heck, for you, since you ask so very nicely...I'll even squirt a piece of mirror with both the DIY-BF and the Grey as well.

I'm glad I kept some of that specific mix around beyond the little "Touch Up" vial I left at the location for safe keeping.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

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Old 11-27-2006, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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mm,

naw. i'm pretty much an expert at that! actually, what you see is the sort of black banding i'm currently using. the banding isn't wraped around like the wood like velvet is... rather it is stretched from one side to the other (butted up against the edge of the wood) and stapled at the corner in the back. the screen is unfinished the and there will be a black finish trim butted up against the bare wood around the entire screen. (you just don't see the unfinished bare wood on the other three sides from this extreme angle! )

---------------------------------

Wet1 & Tiddler,

i'll put up those bare screen photos of a SF Superlite and test BOC screen so you get some idea of the color difference.

i also took a couple pics of the bears game yesterday with more modest ambient light conditions from a couple of different angles so you can see this beauty with much less light present. viewing cone is definitely not an issue.
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

I just saw your repeated request when I posted this missive. later this week I will indeed return to the "loft" with the Sharp SR10X to effect those screenies and a simple comparison test. That "DIY" formulated BF-Lite screen is in fact painted over a White "Kilz' primed drywall substrate. I'll have to check on getting a quart of neutral Grey mixed up though. Heck, for you, since you ask so very nicely...I'll even squirt a piece of mirror with both the DIY-BF and the Grey as well.

I'm glad I kept some of that specific mix around beyond the little "Touch Up" vial I left at the location for safe keeping.

Would it be possible for you to throw a matte white sample in the comparison as well for reference?

I'm very much looking forward to seeing your results!
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post


Wet1 & Tiddler,

i'll put up those bare screen photos of a SF Superlite and test BOC screen so you get some idea of the color difference.

i also took a couple pics of the bears game yesterday with more modest ambient light conditions from a couple of different angles so you can see this beauty with much less light present. viewing cone is definitely not an issue.

Excellent!!! I'm excited to see how they look in low light and bright conditions!
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Old 11-27-2006, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post


up next... a 100" 1/16" acrylic mirror... it sickens me to be forced to do this?!

Has anyone definitively determined if there's any benefit to using a mirrored surface rather than a white base? With this many layers of paint over the top, I have a hard time believing much of the light can make it down to the mirror and then all the way back to the surface... I'd think the difference would be nearly unnoticeable.

What's the cost of a 4'x8' sheet of acrylic mirror anyway?
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:18 AM
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Now that's a question loaded for Bear! I've done a very many of 'em and always received good reviews. A few other AVS'er have done 'em and been less than enthusiastic, but the majority who "nailed it" through help and pro-offered advice have been quite satisfied.

Even so, although I see and note a difference....PB_ so far has not.

IMO, the darker the mix is that coats the surface, the more easier it is to cover it with "THIN" layers of the mix, and the more advantageous the presence of a Mirror returning light to the rear of that surface becomes.

Perhaps after PB_ recovers from the malaise of using a mirror, the use thereof of one only 1/16" thick (...instead of the usual 1/8") will show him a result that might change his mind.

It's more the availability and affordability of the other materials in "normal" sizes that makes them attractive, and so being, up to now all PB_ efforts have revolved around such applications. Me? I'm the "Mirror Man"

But not for long, maybe.

Cost of a 4' x 8' Acrylic Mirror ranges from $85.00 to $97.00 at most any Plastic Sheeting Supply Co.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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