New Laminate Test: Pearl Silver - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, before anyone gets started on the "Pearl Silver LS is too glossy / we've tried it / do a search in the forums / this won't work" posts, listen to my story.

I called Wilsonart to find out if they produced (or could produce) a matte version of the Pearl Silver (D487-7). The rep told me he'd send me a nice, big sample of the most matte surface they made in that color.

Yesterday I received a large sample of sample D487-90 (along with a 8x11 of D487-7 for reference).

I will post screenshots soon. Here's an initial comparison (the D487-90 is the unmarked, larger sample):



It certainly doesn't hotspot nearly as bad as the gloss surface (no real surprise) and I like the color.

Another flash test:



You might see that the large sample arrived slightly bent / cracked (upper left corner in this picture). I'm somewhat annoyed, but it will not prevent this test from happening.

I'm hoping to do some screenshots of this color in action sometime this week.


What are your impressions?
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post #2 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 12:11 PM
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Anybody that tries a different material or approach gets a big thumbs up from me. Good luck and can't wait to see some screen shots.
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post #3 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 12:29 PM
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Great work, looking forward to your screenshots!

Garry
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post #4 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 01:06 PM
 
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How did this one slip under the radar? Great work pjohnston! I look forward to the testing as well! Anyone have the RGB data on it?

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post #5 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 01:15 PM
 
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pjohnston,

Couple questions...

It looks darker than CgS, is it? How does it rate, colorwise, with the rest of your samples? Maybe a pic with the other samples as well? Do they charge for samples that size? I may have to pick one up.


I think this looks seriously promising! It's very encouraging that it doesn't hotspot! Or at least appear to via the camera flash.

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post #6 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 01:39 PM
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Hmmmmm,

pjohnston007, could send me the WilsonArt contact info so I could ask for some of the larger variety samples of the Silver pearl AND the DG?

How long did it take you to get 'em after your request?

To quote James T. Kirk;
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post #7 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 02:11 PM
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If the silver element is dispersed in the manner shown (...or appears to be shown....) then I see immediate issues arising in respect to visible differences being seen as a moving image runs across the surface. You would see subtle and not so subtle shifting of contrast and colors. To avoid seeing such, it would then require a seating distance far enough back that it would effectively negate the advantage and desirability of having a Big Screen in the first place.

That's a shame if true. But a speckly silver finish carries such disadvantages.

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post #8 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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WOW! I had no idea this would generate this amount of interest!

I know that, during my initial testing, people expressed interested in the Pearl Silver, but specifically pointed out that it was too glossy and reflective.

That's why I wanted to hunt down a less reflective version of this color.

I ordered the sample by calling the hotline number on the back of a Pearl Silver LS sample (800-433-3222). I didn't record the date of the call, but the samples arrived with a sheet showing the request was created 15 January 2007 and as I stated, I received the samples yesterday (Monday, 22 January 2007). I guess that's one week, flat! Not too shabby...

All my samples are downstairs, and I am seriously knee-deep in graduate studies (semester #2), so any off-the-cuff comparisons to FG and DW will have to wait, as will any photos. Spare time for me now is a premium.

One more thing: Does anyone mind if I use my existing CgS as a backdrop for this testing? I am considering mounting the samples with masking tape (it shouldn't harm the surface of the CgS, should it?).

Oh--and something interesting: The "matte Pearl Silver" (which I hereby christen mPS) appears to be vertical grade (which perhaps explains why / how it cracked during shipment).

-p
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post #9 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

pjohnston,

Were the samples free or did you have to pay shipping or something like that? Keep up with your studies as far as I'm concerned, that's a heckuva lot more important than this.

As far as using CgS as a backdrop, it really doesn't matter at all as far as I'm concerned. It appears quite a bit darker than FG from wbassett's post. Can you verify that? If it is, it might be alot of work for your lower lumen pj. Don't take my word for it though, I'm not that knowledgeable. I'm just guessin.

I may have to sneek a peek through all their samples one of these days...

mech

Samples were completely free. The mPS is 14x18" and the PS reference is 8x11".

I'll see if I can do a good grab from my flatbed scanner for color/lightness/hue.

-p
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post #10 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 08:33 PM
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I found a small sample at Home Depot, so I tested it for color. Here's the results:

Pearl Silver LS D487-07
XYZ: 46.59 47.65 54.56
Yxy: 47.65 0.3130 0.3202
RGB: 188 182 188

Very neutral, and about the same lightness as Grayhawk. I'm including a pic of the sample to make sure I've got the right stuff. Tried to take an accurate pic of the surface, but it is very difficult to photograph - the pics consistently make it look like it has more texture and color variation than it does live. This is going to be a very interesting thread!

Garry
LL
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post #11 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Same lightness as Grayhawk? Rock on!

Here are some flatbed scanner grabs. I have some vertical banding going on with my scanner, so all grabs here best reflect what I see with my two, blue, 20/15 eyes.

Edit: Scanned to .tif (no compression), converted to .jpg (absolute minimum compression), imported to photobucket using Flock / photobucket uploader tool.

PS (D487-07)


PS, 600dpi


mPS swatch (D487-90), 75dpi


FG, mPS grab (D487-90), 300dpi


FG, mPS grab (D487-90), 75dpi
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post #12 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 09:11 PM
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having looked closely at a stewart firehawk... i'd say that pjohnston007 pics of the wilson art silver samples have the same type of texture.
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post #13 of 251 Old 01-23-2007, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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mPS swatch (D487-90), 600dpi

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post #14 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 12:14 AM
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when i saw your initial gray color tests I really hoped you'd try it out with the mPS ... The fact that the light from the scanner doesn't make it sparkle is very encouraging.

I wish i had the money to throw at testing some of these alternative gray laminates, however I can only sustain one test at a time and I'm working on black laminates with color specific reflective Gels atm.

Hope this turns out to be an awesome option ... 188, 182, 188 is about as neutral as we've seen. Keep it up PJ!
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post #15 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 06:37 AM
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Nice find PJ. This material has really good gain and appears to be very netural as well... looks like it could be a winner.
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post #16 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 06:46 AM
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Wet1... just curious, but how can you tell the gain from just the pictures?

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #17 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 06:49 AM
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So glad I just ordered Fashion Gray...



Prof, Do you just take the sample tile to the paint mixers for a read out? Do they find it odd that you want the break down but not the paint?
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post #18 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

Wet1... just curious, but how can you tell the gain from just the pictures?

The high metallic content and the pics provided earlier.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=772920
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post #19 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 08:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadci View Post

So glad I just ordered Fashion Gray...



Prof, Do you just take the sample tile to the paint mixers for a read out? Do they find it odd that you want the break down but not the paint?

If you don't take a dive sooner or later, all you're left doing is sitting around waiting for the next great thing to come out. I know, I did it for like 5 monthes.

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post #20 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 08:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prof55 View Post

I found a small sample at Home Depot, so I tested it for color. Here's the results:

Pearl Silver LS D487-07
XYZ: 46.59 47.65 54.56
Yxy: 47.65 0.3130 0.3202
RGB: 188 182 188

Very neutral, and about the same lightness as Grayhawk. I'm including a pic of the sample to make sure I've got the right stuff. Tried to take an accurate pic of the surface, but it is very difficult to photograph - the pics consistently make it look like it has more texture and color variation than it does live. This is going to be a very interesting thread!

Garry

For comparison FG's RGB is 195 188 194. How did this one slip through the cracks originally? Me thinks I'm going to have to order a sample.

pjohnston, I will not like you if I have to change laminates!! It looks much better now that we have the color data and a better picture/scan. You original pic made it look much darker than it is.

mech
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post #21 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

Wet1... just curious, but how can you tell the gain from just the pictures?

Especially this pic...



Left center is Pearl Silver. That's a pretty good indication of gain. But that small sample is the "-7 textured gloss" finish. A matte finish should really help reduce the glare. The color scan (and the measured 188/182/188 RGB values) in comparison to DG seems nice... the earlier pic looked waaaaay too dark.

I won't switch because CRT doesn't need gray to help with contrast, but I hope this matte finish has less hotspotting and less glare and better ambient light performance than DG.
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post #22 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

For comparison FG's RGB is 195 188 194. How did this one slip through the cracks originally? Me thinks I'm going to have to order a sample.

pjohnston, I will not like you if I have to change laminates!! It looks much better now that we have the color data and a better picture/scan. You original pic made it look much darker than it is.

mech

Heh...I would hate it (but not as much as the wife!) if I convince myself to change laminates, too! Building my first screen was a PITA, though I have enough lessons learned to do a second one faster, easier and cheaper.

The initial pictures did look dark; I snapped them with the lights off to show ONLY the difference in base reflectivity. Since I had initial test pictures that somewhat shows the performance of standard PS, I wanted to initially show only that I had found a not-so-reflective version of PS.

I wouldn't claim that this one "slipped through the cracks." It's just that I am a have-to-think-outside-the-box-every-day-of-my-life type of guy. It sometimes leads me to new and interesting things, while almost never failing to piss off the wife!

Back to my grad school world, for now...as always, more to follow.

-p
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post #23 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 09:33 AM
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mech it didn't totally slip, I stayed with the matte finishes is all and did see and have a sample of this, but in the -7 finish.

Here are the code definitions and glossometer readings.

#7 Textured Gloss
A textured finish which reproduces the high sheen of waxed wood furniture. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Available only on those designs for which it is the standard finish. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 36 +/- 3.

#60 Matte
Textured finish with a moderate reflective quality. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 10 +/- 2.

#90 Crystal
A very finely beaded texture that minimizes smudges and finger marks and improves scratch resistance. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 13 +/- 3.

NOTE: Glossometer readings are made at a 60 degree angle of incidence. MD refers to the machine direction of a laminate sheet, and CD refers to the cross direction.

Based on that this is going to have a rather high specularity gain, higher than FG, so keep that in mind. Poly may knock it down to a manageable level, but at some point the specular gain is going to be more than what a poly coating will compensate for. Hopefully this isn't a problem because it is a nice looking color. At 13 +/- 3, the variances in sheets could hit as high as glossometer reading of 16 and still be within Wilsonart tolerances. That still doesn't sound too bad, I just want people to keep in mind what happened with specular gain and FG and this will definitely exhibit the same characteristics and even a little moreso.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #24 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post


. . .
#90 Crystal
A very finely beaded texture that minimizes smudges and finger marks and improves scratch resistance. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 13 +/- 3. . .

wbassett,

Thank you for this description! I am completely fascinated by the line:

Quote:


A very finely beaded texture that minimizes smudges and finger marks and improves scratch resistance.

That is EXACTLY what I need with little ones running / crawling around throwing things at the walls (and screen) and who want to go up and touch/feel Nemo swimming around!

Project proposal:
Is anyone willing to do a "Scratch/Smudge (Ruggedness) Comparison Test on the different surfaces?

-p
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post #25 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohnston007 View Post

I called Wilsonart to find out if they produced (or could produce) a matte version of the Pearl Silver (D487-7). The rep told me he'd send me a nice, big sample of the most matte surface they made in that color.

Yesterday I received a large sample of sample D487-90 (along with a 8x11 of D487-7 for reference).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohnston007 View Post

"matte Pearl Silver" (which I hereby christen mPS)

-90 is the "crystal" finish.
-60 is their "matte" finish.
-7 is wilsonart's standard "textured gloss" finish.

So to clarify, we should probably redub this as "crystal Pearl Silver" (cPS) or maybe "Wilsonart Pearl Silver 90" or "PS90" or "D487-90". I think the "-90" suffix is important because the finish seems like a bigger advance than the color code, and this will emphasize that people should not order the standard D487-7 Pearl Silver.
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post #26 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

-90 is the "crystal" finish.
-60 is their "matte" finish.
-7 is wilsonart's standard "textured gloss" finish.

So to clarify, we should probably redub this as "crystal Pearl Silver" (cPS) or maybe "Wilsonart Pearl Silver 90" or "PS90" or "D487-90". I think the "-90" suffix is important because the finish seems like a bigger advance than the color code, and this will emphasize that people should not order the standard D487-7 Pearl Silver.

Agreed. So be it.

PS90, it is.

All in favor? All opposed?
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post #27 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohnston007 View Post

wbassett,

Thank you for this description! I am completely fascinated by the line:



That is EXACTLY what I need with little ones running / crawling around throwing things at the walls (and screen) and who want to go up and touch/feel Nemo swimming around!

Project proposal:
Is anyone willing to do a "Scratch/Smudge (Ruggedness) Comparison Test on the different surfaces?

-p

Actually any of the laminates are going to be a virtually indestructible screen. The only thing that really damages them and fast is extreme heat. I did a very extensive torture test on them. I even did a marker and sharpie test. This finish isn't going to be any better or worse than matte for cleaning or smudge resistance. My concern was more with the added sheen and what it is going to do to the specular gain and I wanted to make people aware of that. Unfortunately this doesn't come in a matte finish, it would be a fantastic color in matte.

The Crystal finish is also an extra charge since it's not the standard finish, I just spoke to Wilsonart and that's what they told me, so just a few things to keep in mind... I'm not trying to be negative or anything.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #28 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohnston007 View Post

Agreed. So be it.

PS90, it is.

All in favor? All opposed?

I'd chose the matte finish since it would probably mitigate hotspotting although the crystal finish sounds intriguing. Go for it (PS90) and let us know the results!
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post #29 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 10:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohnston007 View Post

Heh...I would hate it (but not as much as the wife!) if I convince myself to change laminates, too! Building my first screen was a PITA, though I have enough lessons learned to do a second one faster, easier and cheaper.

Luckily, I think mine would come apart relatively easy if I had to take it apart. As long as I could pry the adhesive apart....

mech
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post #30 of 251 Old 01-24-2007, 10:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

mech it didn't totally slip, I stayed with the matte finishes is all and did see and have a sample of this, but in the -7 finish.

Here are the code definitions and glossometer readings.

#7 Textured Gloss
A textured finish which reproduces the high sheen of waxed wood furniture. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Available only on those designs for which it is the standard finish. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 36 +/- 3.

#60 Matte
Textured finish with a moderate reflective quality. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 10 +/- 2.

#90 Crystal
A very finely beaded texture that minimizes smudges and finger marks and improves scratch resistance. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 13 +/- 3.

NOTE: Glossometer readings are made at a 60 degree angle of incidence. MD refers to the machine direction of a laminate sheet, and CD refers to the cross direction.

Based on that this is going to have a rather high specularity gain, higher than FG, so keep that in mind. Poly may knock it down to a manageable level, but at some point the specular gain is going to be more than what a poly coating will compensate for. Hopefully this isn't a problem because it is a nice looking color. At 13 +/- 3, the variances in sheets could hit as high as glossometer reading of 16 and still be within Wilsonart tolerances. That still doesn't sound too bad, I just want people to keep in mind what happened with specular gain and FG and this will definitely exhibit the same characteristics and even a little moreso.

That's an interesting point as I would not even think about changing if it required putting on another poly topcoat. Definetly not worth doing that again. And that's not to imply that it's difficult, just another step and more $$$.

mech
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