I painted my wall with Ben Moore flat white.... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 02-11-2007, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Ceiling paint, 2 coats
The rest of that wall is flat black.

Would any of these mixes/Neutral greys make the picture any better, I have read ALOT of these threads, but I don't know of anyone that has gone from Ben Moore flat white ceiling paint....

I have a Sharp DT-500 ( 170 hrs), app. 115", viewing in a completely light controlled room, where most of the time all the lights are off.
Viewing angles are pretty straight, no real side view area used, except when I'm on the computer(like now heheheh).

The picture looks really good right now, but if going to one of these other mixes/paints ( and/or Behr Matte poly) would make a BIG difference in quality, I am willing to paint it again, but if it won't make a big difference, I won't bother wasting time on it.

I have no clue what the color coordinates are for this paint, but it looks pretty white to me.

Thanks in advance

m

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post #2 of 42 Old 02-11-2007, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The blacks do look black.

The screen wall(well, whats left of it heheh) is painted Flat black, the adjoining wall on the right sticks IN about 4' (Toward viewer-think alcove),is painted flat black, and I have TBV on that wall(these adjoining walls are about 8" from the edge of the screen- reflections were really bad- almost dead now), the left wall sticks IN(toward me) about 1', is painted flat black as well, and will also most likely be covered in TBV as well.

The other walls in the room are brownish grey, actually a custom color I mixed from all kinds of old paint we had laying around. This MAY get a darker color makeover as well, due to reflections around the room.

I have a 2x2 drop ceiling(white of course), which I am considering painting black(along with the grids) as well, this of course has met some resistance, but I may just paint the tiles in the 1st 2 rows, as I have spare tiles from when I changed out the old tiles 2 yrs ago.

Everything looks great to me, I didn't actually figure that another color, or mix would do much for me, considering I have plenty of lumens and contrast already, and as stated, I control the lights, this is a finished basement, with just 1 small window, which I covered up.

I am considering doing either 1 or 2 coats of that Poly(I've read many of your posts- " NO MORE THAN 2 COATS!! heheh), but I am a little concerned it will dull the picture some, even though it looks from photo's that it won't.

Thanks t

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post #3 of 42 Old 02-12-2007, 03:47 PM
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Tiddler,

I read the entire FnEasy thread last evening. Very interesting, and very helpful. When I built my HT about 3 years ago, I painted a screen using MM's Mississippi Mud - White primer, Silver Metallic, topcoat a mix of UPW, Clear Base, White Opalescent, whatever else. I did it as well as I could, but never had anyone who had done a screen in a similar fashion look at it to compare.

My panasonic L200u was not really a light canon (still isn't for that matter) and the blacks weren't/aren't particularly black, especially in the upper and lower bars when watching DVD's. I now have a AE900, which even on low power is noticeably brighter than the old panny. It would be a stretch to call the blacks black, but they are darker. I also now want to grow the screen a bit as well. I still have half a gallon of the Mud mix and about a pint of the Silver Metallic. Since I am only going to need to 'add' 5" to the left and right side and about the same to the top, I probably have enough paint to do the job without leaving the house. Well, maybe some primer.

In Post 2 above you ask muzz if the blacks are black and the walls are dark, with the assumption that if both were true, he would not benefit from gray paint. In my case, my walls are dark, but my blacks are not so dark. I have a completely controlled enviornment as you can see here. I am intrigued by the idea of gray + poly. In the FnEasy thread, the screen shots of the poly treated surfaces all seemed to enhance the picture in the presence of ambient light. Not sure what I am asking other than, what do you think? The obvious solution is to paint some panels and see how they look, I guess.

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post #4 of 42 Old 02-12-2007, 10:40 PM
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Tiddler,

That was way more of an answer than I expected. Given that I paid for the MMud three years ago, it is of no consequence to me to start over with new colors, just a thought that it would be 'frugal' to make use of that which I already have. My ceiling is acutally a very dark grey. The carpet is indeed sort of an oatmeal color. I had some samples of darker carpet but just couldn't pull the trigger on going too dark. Somehow, the aesthetic balance seemed too out of wack, which is funny considering it is a room that is dim at best!

The Mud drill was to prep the wall with good primer as with FnEasy. The second step is to go with a couple of coats of Silver Metallic to create a refelective base. The tricky part (in hindsight) was to get the topcoat mix with all the crazy ingredients on, but in a way that was just barely non-translucent, so as to let the SM help reflect back the light. Lots of wet sanding in between coats. Again, not having done it before, who knows if what I did was even close to what MMan had in mind when he wrote out his instructions. It is a flat finish.

It is funny to have people over who look at the screen and ask where I bought it, only to tell them it is just paint. They don't believe me, usually. Then I suggest they rap their knuckles against it!

I will have to say it is pretty white. My thought was to expand the screen the desired amount, sanding away the red wall paint texture, at least, and then going over it and the rest of the screen with some sort of primer followed by a gray mix and then the poly. Or just prime the perimeter, paint SM on the new part and then use the technique you describe doing a veritcal strip in a non-contiguous way and then work the new into the old paint from the edges. Do a sand in between and repeat. As it is out near the edge, you would have to be pretty anal to notice any difference in the finish, and if it were, you could just go over the whole screen

I think some sample boards of FnEasy are in order before I get too carried away!

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post #5 of 42 Old 02-13-2007, 04:03 AM
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Muzz

A good way to get a feel for black level is to get a image on the screen with some good black white contrast and then cast a shadow on the screen. The black of the shadow will be blacker than the darkest black you have but will give you a point of reference. If you are anywhere close to that black and if when you view you are not feeling overpowered by the whites and seeing the black as realistic black why go much more. Now if you get into ambient light viewing you will quickly see the shadow making the blacks look not so black.


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post #6 of 42 Old 02-13-2007, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, when I say they "Look" black, I am NOT referring to CRT blacks.
I've been watching a Hitachi 57S700(CRT RPTV) for the last 2 years, and I can say without a doubt, that while the DT-500 looks black, there really isn't a comparison between these 2 rigs.
The Hitachi smokes the PJ in black levels, and contrast.....
But the Hitachi is only 57", where as the DT-500 is 115" !!

I JUST bought the Behr-780 Poly tonight, but I am still pondering making my screen just a TAD grey, for when other folks come over(AL)- and it never hurts to get a bit deeper blacks(although as I stated, they look black- average folks won't notice- I do from watching blacks the last 2 years).

I will NOT sacrifice flesh tones to get better AL performance though, that I won't do, and I've seen alot of the greys seem to do that.
If I had a choice between flesh tones, and a bit better AL performance?

AL performance be damned!!! My folks can deal with a darker room!!

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post #7 of 42 Old 02-14-2007, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post

Well, when I say they "Look" black, I am NOT referring to CRT blacks.
I've been watching a Hitachi 57S700(CRT RPTV) for the last 2 years, and I can say without a doubt, that while the DT-500 looks black, there really isn't a comparison between these 2 rigs.
The Hitachi smokes the PJ in black levels, and contrast.....
But the Hitachi is only 57", where as the DT-500 is 115" !!

I JUST bought the Behr-780 Poly tonight, but I am still pondering making my screen just a TAD grey, for when other folks come over(AL)- and it never hurts to get a bit deeper blacks(although as I stated, they look black- average folks won't notice- I do from watching blacks the last 2 years).

I will NOT sacrifice flesh tones to get better AL performance though, that I won't do, and I've seen alot of the greys seem to do that.
If I had a choice between flesh tones, and a bit better AL performance?

AL performance be damned!!! My folks can deal with a darker room!!

Flesh tones or any color need not be diminished by a gray screen as long as you have lumens and the gray is neutral.

There is a link in my signature below titled (Fun Read) its about a test I did on a pitch black screen and the projection of whites and flesh tones off that screen.

Selection of gray level has to factor in screen size, lumens and bulb dimming, those three will tell you what ambient light level you will be able to stand.


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post #8 of 42 Old 02-14-2007, 11:21 AM
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There are several new varients of MMud w/Gray hues.

The most renowned is RS-MaxxMudd

That's MMud with Silver Metallic and Polyurethane added, as well as a small amount of Pale Gold

It can go fairly dark before skewing Flesh tones. It can also"get Grayer" by adding the original Behr SM instead of the lighter "Delta" version.

I'd like to see you try to keep within the MMud family, but the most important thing you can do is get satisfied.

I do feel that you can add just a few teaks to your current MMud mix and get "Happy" very easily.

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post #9 of 42 Old 02-14-2007, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

Flesh tones or any color need not be diminished by a gray screen as long as you have lumens and the gray is neutral.

There is a link in my signature below titled (Fun Read) its about a test I did on a pitch black screen and the projection of whites and flesh tones off that screen.

Selection of gray level has to factor in screen size, lumens and bulb dimming, those three will tell you what ambient light level you will be able to stand.

I've read that, and ALOT more in the last month or so, I don't post on this particular forum much, but I do spend a pretty fair amount of time here reading(actually, I've spent a fair amount for over the last yr, but more recently, because I finally purchased a PJ).

I just put on ALL the lights in my room, and while it IS washed out(in comparison to when dark), it IS able to be watched.

I have attached 2 Identical freeze frames, 14' away, app. 25 degrees OFF axis.
Lights on- 6 recessed cans(2 within 3.5' of screen top- 35 watts each I THINK), 2 table lamps 12' away(seating area)- 1- 60W and 1- 75W.
I didn't go crazy with the camera, sitting on a 39" speaker- Canon A85- manual, 1/8- 2.8, no flash.

115"- DT500, 200hrs, eco mode(high contrast).

Please disregard the mess(can you say BOMB dropped?), I just started with PJ's, and I had to move the whole room around to facilitate usage.
I'll be happy when I decide whats best for me, finish it, and re-arrange everything once and for all....
As you can see, I DO have alot of light spill on the ceiling, the wall to the right of the screen has TBV, and reflections there don't exist.
Ceiling treatment will be next....

I'd really like to be done with it, so I can actually make my room presentable again!!

EDIT: BTW, thats 2.35:1, so light spill onto the ceiling isn't as bad as when it is 1.78:1, the top of the screen here is 8" from the ceiling, I think it's like 1" or so in 16:9
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post #10 of 42 Old 02-14-2007, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

MississippiMan, would adding a small amount of the Behr Silver Metallic to the MMud be a reasonable way to darken the mix?

Absewlootely.
It was for a time the most preferred paint, and the best way to introduce SM into a White base. It's Gray base is quite dark, so it takes very little %-wise to darken a white to a basically neutral Gray. It has Mica flakes in abundance......very fine ones.....and at the small amounts introuduced via the small amounts of SM utilized, everything was as balanced as could be.

Butcha know, that was exactly what MMud-SE was all about, and why it worked so well. That led to PB taking interest in MMud-SE, and between us, the creation of RS-MaxxxMud, with it's use of the lighter hued Delta along with the Polyurethane. The addition of Pale Metallic Gold didn't happen until such was noted as being advantageous as a "corrective item" in BF aka Silver Fire.

Some few people were inclined to, and DID go beyond my recomendations (2-3 Oz. per 1/2 Gallon (Dark) or 2-3 Oz. per Gallon (lite).


Such a richer(Behr) SM adultrated mix would, and does push Blue, more than MMud-SE would-did because it has a preponerance of Lamp Black for "tint", but in MMud-SE, the other components mitigated that tendency to almout zilch.

It always depended on the proportions used. A little goes a long way, and too much requires a doubling of Mix volume to compensate back to square one. That then is what many both lamented their mistake of "pushing it" and gave up in despair.

And let's NOT discuss the torment and tribulations of those who tried and died at spreading pure Behr SM around as a base. Even I gave that up in favor of mixing in the Silver metallic instead. Well, that did come after Light Fusion was born, but the addition of the behr SM.....that too was an advancement because the white MMud coated LF screens were getting dissed for not working to increase contrast. With a MMud-SE coating on a Mirror, or even over a Base White, that changed dramatically. After that came ......................RS-MaxxxMud. After that came BF...................., and well (BF) became................SF.

Quote:


Also what would you suggest for priming the screen to get the larger size?

Start by "lightly" Feathering (via sanding) out the very leading edges of the original perimeter. Applying via Roller a "mid-viscosity" Primer.....at least as many layers as the original screen....perhaps one more. Then feathering in reverse, binging the new paint down to level with the old. Then...Prime the whole screen again at least twice, and there should be no trace of "linage"

Don't tint the Primer....rather depend upon the hue of the Top Coat, and it's being just thin enough to allow a "white Boost" on the brightest content from the outward light reflection.

For this sort of thing, a White Base is quite sufficent, but a Mirror..........divine.

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post #11 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

If you pickup the Silverscreen 770E and Sterling 780E color cards when at Home Depot getting some primer, then you can use them as a guide. Don't go any darker than the Silverscreen and I would aim for the Sterling.

Silver Screen? Why is this still being used as a 'staple' and being recommended to new people? Even as a reference... I understand letting people know about the poly coating if they already have a screen made with SS (but if they are going to take their border down and dismantle their screen to put up a coat of poly, why not just repaint at that point? I mean all that work to put the poly on, might as well revamp the whole screen if a person is upgrading or improving things...) ... but for new people that don't have a screen already I really don't know why SS is thrown around.

The family line is the 'Blue Neutral Family Range', same with Sterling.

Sterling is also in the same family line and on the same screen as Silver screen, go down one and to the right...


They don't look that bad on the color swatch or the online Color Smart program, but when compared to a real gray reference it is very noticeable that there is a dominate lean towards blue, which the testing showed and the Family line even confirms.

I personally take a couple of color swatches that have some nice grays that are close to N8 and N9 and compare other brands to them, but we all have our own methods...


Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz View Post

The picture looks really good right now, but if going to one of these other mixes/paints ( and/or Behr Matte poly) would make a BIG difference in quality, I am willing to paint it again, but if it won't make a big difference, I won't bother wasting time on it.

muzz if you like Benjamin Moore, they have some very nice looking OTS grays with a good looking V curve right there OTS. Sherwin Williams also has some excellent quality paints and OTS options (although that is pretty much a dead thread and topic now). To answer your question though, yes you can get a noticable improvement in quality with a good gray that is neutral or well balanced, or an advanced mix that uses a layered method.

Also, neither LCD or DLP projectors project a true black. White is a very good screen color for total light control, but even with room settings that don't have lighting issues, gray is still a viable option and will punch up the black levels even with the lights out. The older Mudd mix spectro'd at a nice N9.5 shade with a good V balance and falls right in the 'target area' for V curves, which is midway between D65 and C and slightly to the right. Any projector should be able to be calibrated to any color in this area very easily, and there are several that fall in this area.

Silver Screen plots outside of C, going towards D75. Sure there are projectors that can calibrate to it with acceptable results, but all the newer HT projectors are manufactured to be as close to D65 as their neutral reference point as possible. Some will be able to still compensate for SS, but I think it is safe to say it is on the outer fringe and there are people that will have some trouble getting all their colors to look right. Adding poly does help, but IMHO that's a corrective measure so why not go with a better balanced color in the first place? It doesn't matter if it's OTS or a mix, what matters is the balance and where it falls in reference to D65 and C... but that is one man's opinion...

christer W-- If you still have some Mudd mix left, and you like the original, I'd say talk to MM about how to get it to the shade you want and stick with what you like and are familiar with and know works for you.

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post #12 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 05:02 AM
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I hope you come up with the perfect paint for your DT-500 because that is most likely the next projector for me when the 10X gives up. That may be a while off.

A few questions? In the pictures what iris setting are you using? And what size is your screen?

What I'm trying to get a feel for is where you are in terms of foot lamberts right now and what mode you have the projector running in. at 200 hours you are still going to looses more lumens with time and IMO anyone selecting a Neutral gray should think about that also.

You said you normally view lights out and I'm sure you never view in the full on setting as shown in the one picture. But I can see where under certain circumstances you could have some ambient. Your image is tight to the ceiling as mine is and you have to take care of that first. I would suggest you do what I did and I wrote about in the (black ceiling) thread. The light bounce off the white ceiling is a big form of ambient in your case right now. You have the advantage of a drop ceiling so you can paint the tiles and if you ever have to go back to white just buy some new ones. If you don't want to paint the hanger trim strips you could try covering them with a black tape. I would go at least 2 rows of tiles out and 3 would be better. The tiles could be taken down and wrapped in black cloth also. That could be an interesting look.

Next if you haven't put as many of the lights as you can on dimmers. And hopefully they are on separate switches if not with a dropped ceiling that wouldn't be that hard to do.

I personally think you have enough lumens or that at least is my gut feeling about the DT-500 to get some improved PQ from a neutral gray enhanced with poly. I detailed my approach in the thread (screen paint) listed below where I mixed the poly with the neutral gray paint as a gain improver. As of late many are advocating using a straight poly mix over the painted surface with a poly of extremely low luster. I haven't tried that approach but I know the mixing method works and allows one the opportunity to tune the mixture for maximum results.

Lately neutral gray mixes have been following two trains of thought. One is to find a mixture off the shelf (a factory mix or store mix) but one that has a fan card assigned to its color. The other method is to make a neutral gray (doing so at a paint store) by going in with a formula and having them mix it. These Grays are basically flat white base with lamp black added and then some other pigment or pigments to correct for slight color pushes caused by the base and the lamp black not being perfect. The most common being yellow oxide in a very small amount to counteract a blue push.

I have been 100% happy for a year now with a gray I made in the most simplistic of methods. White base and lamp black and then blended with poly and applied as a top coating.

All the fervor here is always about getting the exact perfect neutral gray mix. That being a mix that when measured produces a RGB reading where all 3 numbers are equal or very close to equal. IMO that is very important but equally important is getting the level of gray correct matched to your projector, your room and your screen size. That should be your first concern after correcting your room issues.

The addition of poly should go hand in hand with the level of gray. It will boost brightness and narrow viewing cone. It has its limitations though. And it's limited by very gradually increasing the brightness from the center of the image out. A slight amount of sheen isn't noticeable and is considered a PQ improvement, more will make a warm spot too much a hot spot. This was the reason I liked the blended approach to doing this a person could thru experimentation tune this screen quality just like tuning the gray level. (in hopes that one mans experiments would benefit the next guy with the same projector in a similar room)

In my personal case I made a major improvement to my room when I painted the ceiling out black. And IMO this change constitutes a reason to change my screen color. Conventional wisdom says less ambient, less ambient reflected go lighter towards white. But I'm actually viewing this as an opportunity to go darker. Still better blacks and possibly even then being able to tolerate more task lighting at the seating end of the room with no adverse PQ. Will I do the change right away? I doubt it. (laziness factor) but my point being I should have taken care of ever lighting issue prior to optimizing my screen paint.

I know this post is getting long, but I don't want to weigh in on the next level of screen paint that will be suggested to you. And that is the advanced mixes these could produce wonderful images for you. I wont go into detail on how they work but totally dependent on the 3 factors I outlined above the benefits of them will run between mild to wild. They are balanced neutrals that work in an even more advanced way concerning gain and viewing angle than sheen alone. They contain highly reflective pigments and they increase overall efficiency of the screen along with the sheen improvements. They are also commonly known as the spray only paints, as its been documented quite a few times as to the difficulty in rolling these on. Not that it can't be done but it's a art to do well.


PS on edit:

Skip to post 27


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post #13 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I do not recommend either Silverscreen or Sterling as the best grays to use. Only as a last resort for those intent on using Behr and one of the proprietary tints do I suggest Sterling as a better choice than Silverscreen. If we could pickup Munsell Gray color cards at Home Depot or even send away for them without spending $60 I would suggest them as a visual reference. Unfortunately that is not an option. The color cards that Silverscreen and Sterling are on are fairly large and as a visual reference for shade that's the best we have.

Of course I agree with wbassett that the best enhancement for a Silverscreen user is to repaint it using the FnEasy-06 solution.

Why would that be a last resort? There are a lot of brands of paint out there. Where I live (out in the sticks) there is a True Value right in town, and 9 miles away there is both a Home Depot and a Sherwin Williams. If I make the drive to civilization (Saratoga or Clifton Park) where there is a Home Depot there is always a Lowes close by (usually across the street), and within a shopping radius of a couple of miles there is also Sherwin Williams and Benjamin Moore paint shops. Behr is an 'okay' paint, not the worse brand, but there are better quality paints out there than Behr. Many people prefer Valspar to Behr. I don't know what it's like in Canada, but it is very easy to find paints over here. (For instance Dutch Boys is sold in Walmart as well as Kilz brand of colors... Dutch Boys and Sherwin Williams are the same company, like Glidden and Behr)

I think I understand your mindset, I think you're trying to keep it to one store shopping, I'm just suggesting that there is more out there than just Home Depot and Behr products.

Quote:


The color cards that Silverscreen and Sterling are on are fairly large and as a visual reference for shade that's the best we have.

Not really, I have color cards from True Value and Sherwin Williams that I use for close matches for N8 and N9 shades.

Quote:


Of course I agree with wbassett that the best enhancement for a Silverscreen user is to repaint it using the FnEasy-06 solution.

That's not exactly what I was saying. I think the FnEasy methods are very good, but not the only options. AVS has a lot of excellent methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

All the fervor here is always about getting the exact perfect neutral gray mix. That being a mix that when measured produces a RGB reading where all 3 numbers are equal or very close to equal. IMO that is very important but equally important is getting the level of gray correct matched to your projector, your room and your screen size. That should be your first concern after correcting your room issues.

I agree 1000% that the balance is what matters but also people have to take their setting and projector specs into account too.

Personally it doesn't matter to me if a person uses a method I researched or one of the other methods that have been proven to be excellent performers, the key is the balance of the color and the right shade for a person's particular projector and room setting.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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post #14 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wbassett View Post

I agree 1000% that the balance is what matters but also people have to take their setting and projector specs into account too.

the key is the balance of the color and the right shade for a person's particular projector and room setting.

Don't forget screen size





A 1000% agreement now I'm getting worried.


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post #15 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by wbassett View Post


Personally it doesn't matter to me if a person uses a method I researched or one of the other methods that have been proven to be excellent performers, the key is the balance of the color and the right shade for a person's particular projector and room setting.

I agree 1000% that the balance is what matters but also people have to take their setting and projector specs into account too.

Both statements are so very true. Once factored into the equation, the choice of how far down the road to "advanced" is the next selection to be made if one wants to take performance to a higher level. Some mixes can & will allow a far darker neutral Gray without crushing across the spectrum. Those mixes deliver the overall CR boosting that provides both the desired "inky blacks", yet keep whites bright (....and white....) as well as colors vibrant, showing off the CR boost that reflects in depth and "PoP"

In my way of thinking, the push toward establishing Gray Neutrals as a starting point has validated the entire concept of using Gray ....especially through the introduction of Silver Metallic in appropriate amounts. Going that route assures one of the most spectacular results, and the Grim Reaper of Failure is turned away as far as the need to spray such a mix being offset by cost/inconvenience/lack of skill with the use of the Wagner Control Spray Gun.

If you can roll, and you can put down a Drop Cloth, then Spraying, and covering up a little more area to each side of the Screen area, as well as ventilating the "dust" that does occur, means that no matter what Paint you 'fall into', your going to get the absolute best finish, and the best end results possible. That means the sharpest possible image, as well as the advantage of getting the most out of any paint selection as far as it's reflective properties are concerned.

The easy "Rolling" solutions are great for those who have sprung for "Costco Special" PJs, and have virtually no budget remaining, but if you spend more than a Grand for a PJ that has up-to-date specs, but fudge on going for the best, most well suited and produced application you possibly can, then you will have lost the chance to become fabulously happy right out of the starting gate.

Oh....if you have nothing previous by which to compare to, those "easy" solutions will look great with the latest crop of PJs, but since the "advanced" applications were originally developed to compensate for less that stellar performing PJs, then it stands to reason they have even greater results lying in store for better PJs.

IMO

Which is also 1000% mine.

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post #16 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 06:29 AM
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As to the issues with Silver Screen AKA SS

I also wouldn't recommend this mix as testing data has shown it to fall pretty far into the blue push range. Just for the record for Muzz's reference SS is a white base tinted per gallon with 20/48oz lamp black 20/48oz raw umber and 2/48oz exterior red. I have no idea how those pigments work together to cause a blue push but many have reported it and many have shown it in pictures.

I know Wbassett had a truly horrible experience with it. But on the other hand there were many supporters of this paint for a long time claiming great results.

I don't think it was ever proven one way or another if the supporters were getting a different version of the color somehow or if they had projectors or some other factor that made two wrongs equal a right. I know many that liked it were using LCD projectors at that time. We may never know the whole SS saga.

The biggest reason I didn't like the mix was I felt it was to dark of a gray regardless of the color push. I have an extremely bright projector and I'm currently using a 22/48oz lamp black mix. I have often felt and never been able to prove that being underpowered on any gray screen gives the perception of bluishness and also muddied skin tones.

I have also never been able to prove or convince many people that the threshold where gray impacts PQ dramatically is very low on the neutral gray scale. IMO it's clearly a case where more is not better. I think it's a case of how we perceive black and our eyes interacting with our brains. Its not so much a black we can measure with a light meter as one our eyes allow our brain to see.


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post #17 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:09 AM
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My PJ is also an LCD projector. I am sure there are some people that can compensation for it, but there are also going to be a lot that won't be able to. It really is pretty far away from all the other methods that are excellent performing DIY applications. I didn't and don't have a personal vendetta against SS, it just isn't a good color balance for a screen (for a wall or trim yes) and every bit of data and testing has shown it may work, but there are far better options available. If it was a matter of SS being the only easy and inexpensive method and everything else being expensive and hard to mix and apply, then yeah it would still dominate and be the prefered OTS paint. I think things have progressed since it was first discovered, and again it broke ground and showed white wasn't the only way to go, but there has been a lot of information found since then and it really is a blue gray and not a true gray.

Agreeing 1000%... I never disagreed with the whole V curve concept and a well balanced color, hell I coined the phrase 'V Curve'. Neutrals are harder to get but do work. To me they work very well as a screen color, but are also an excellent foundation to build out the V from.

I didn't mean to sidetrack this thread....

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post #18 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post


I have also never been able to prove or convince many people that the threshold where gray impacts PQ dramatically is very low on the neutral gray scale. IMO it's clearly a case where more is not better. I think it's a case of how we perceive black and our eyes interacting with our brains. Its not so much a black we can measure with a light meter as one our eyes allow our brain to see.

First off, even BCortez has admitted that SS is not a perfect solution, just a easy one that lends itself to many potential situations, costs about nothing, and allows newbees the confidence needed to plunge into the DIY mainstream.

We all know how many "want it all but don't want to do / spend much" thinking there is in DIY. From day 1, trying to elict a greater desire to attempt 'the next level' of DIY has been my mantra.

Bud's statement allowing to the rapidity by which a Gray can start to adversely affect PG is spot on. Even an abundance of Lumens cannot effectively compensate past a certain point if the Gray is just "Gray". There has to be mitigating factors in the Mix to allow subjective improvements in CR and perceived Black Levels without producing white Crush or the skewing of colors. Otherwise, the lighter the hue, the more correct the image will be without undue compensation at the PJ's menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbassett View Post


I didn't mean to sidetrack this thread....


Oh Cripes! You don't "side track", you keep us "honest"!

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post #19 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

The easy "Rolling" solutions are great for those who have sprung for "Costco Special" PJs, and have virtually no budget remaining, but if you spend more than a Grand for a PJ that has up-to-date specs, but fudge on going for the best, most well suited and produced application you possibly can, then you will have lost the chance to become fabulously happy right out of the starting gate.

Oh....if you have nothing previous by which to compare to, those "easy" solutions will look great with the latest crop of PJs, but since the "advanced" applications were originally developed to compensate for less that stellar performing PJs, then it stands to reason they have even greater results lying in store for better PJs.


MM's last post is very true and it also includes the one point where he and I tend to disagree. That being that metallic enhanced paints can improve on perfection, as it is the case. And let me describe what perfection is to me in the case of painting a screen.

Perfection is returning an image to the eye that possesses true accurate color information along with a level of brightness that is determined proper for the ultimate viewing experience. Being able to enjoy this image over the full width of the seating area is the icing on the cake.

Once you achieve this there isn't much else to be obtained. If you have a projector with enough brightness and or a screen size small enough to make this happen then it's a case of simple being as good as complex these modern projectors with their brightness and tremendous CR's IMO are closing the gap between simple and complex as to the benefits of complex.

The metallic paints as I have posted many times are fantastic. They boast efficiency and in almost all things efficiency is good. These screens equal some of the very best commercial screen. But nonetheless the advantages of using them is proportional to the need for using them.

He did mention something in the above post that I have been wanting to hear for some time now. He mentioned that these efficiencies in these mixes could allow for darker neutral gray mixes to be made. In essence make a screen with outward appearance dark gray get tremendous black level detail and CR along with bright colors and whites. Tailor the metallic mixes to the brightest of projectors and allowing for more ambient light. The trend of late I have been seeing though is to lighten the metallic mixes. And the one screen he showcased about 6 months ago with the same projector as mine he chose to go with an outwardly lighter gray shooting to a smaller screen.

Like I posted above I have experimented very little with metallic screen paints and my opinions are based around what I have learned thru reading and observing results here.

On a side note:
I personally don't equate someone's desire to have a stellar projected image around where they bought their projector or if the cost was substantially below the $1000 mark. In fact there is something to be said for the look you get when asked how much you shelled out for that image and you can say 750 bucks with a lifetime customer service plan.


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post #20 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post


On a side note:
I personally don't equate someone's desire to have a stellar projected image around where they bought their projector or if the cost was substantially below the $1000 mark. In fact there is something to be said for the look you get when asked how much you shelled out for that image and you can say 750 bucks with a lifetime customer service plan.

No disputing that. Depending on the "buy in" level, it's all about "Cost to Performance"

And it is all comparative.

If I use a $4k PJ, I'm not fudging on the decision to use a Mirror and go "Fusion". That applies as well to a $1.3k PJ. But for the under $800.00 PJ crowd, being able to say, "....and the screen is the wall (or a board) and cost under $50.00 to knock out." is all part of the fun of ownership.

'Suspender Poppin' rights, we's call it.

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post #21 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Bud's statement allowing to the rapidity by which a Gray can start to adversely affect PG is spot on. Even an abundance of Lumens cannot effectively compensate past a certain point if the Gray is just "Gray". There has to be mitigating factors in the Mix to allow subjective improvements in CR and perceived Black Levels without producing white Crush or the skewing of colors. Otherwise, the lighter the hue, the more correct the image will be without undue compensation at the PJ's menu.


MM I believe slightly misquoted me in his agreement with what I posted on gray.

The point I was trying to make was an extremely low level of grayness can make a profound improvement in what we see as black in a image. What I didn't say was there is a point when gray becomes too dark or useless as a screen paint. It's my belief that given enough brightness of light a correct image can be projected to grays way down the scale without any of the crushing etc he talks about. That was explained to me in the experiment and thread I started (listed below as Fun Read) where I projected bright whites and vivid colors and true skin tones to a coal black screen. True it took mega foot lamberts but it worked. The benefit of gray is always going to be in competition with ambient light even if the only ambient light is being produced by light bounce off the screen. The spin off benefit is attenuation of light given a too bright projector for the task at hand.


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post #22 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

MM's last post is very true and it also includes the one point where he and I tend to disagree. That being that metallic enhanced paints can improve on perfection, as it is the case. And let me describe what perfection is to me in the case of painting a screen.

Perfection is returning an image to the eye that possesses true accurate color information along with a level of brightness that is determined proper for the ultimate viewing experience. Being able to enjoy this image over the full width of the seating area is the icing on the cake.

Once you achieve this there isn't much else to be obtained.

Whoa. To aspire to achieve Depth and Surface Transparency are the most desirable traits after Color accuracy. Layered Paint applications, or the same along with "Fusion" applications achieve "beyond perfection' levels that do indeed trump the best 'static surface' applications.

The smoothest surface possible is desired.

The Flattest Hue obtainable goes 'hand in hand' with the former.

The ability to absorb just the right amount of light, and reflect the rest in the best manner possible.

That leads to being able to darken the initially received light AND the re-introduced light (via Fusion) and by doing so, that takes everything up to the top rung of the AL/CR performance ladder.

What you haven't seen or personally experienced cannot be disallowed as not being worth it to aspire to/for. I know I'm to be considered biased toward LF, but also consider this. After having done so many LF Screens, and even ventured down other DIY routes as well, when it comes to recommending as well as assuring folks that "Sprayed" LF apps combined with AL paint schemes create the epitome of DIY perfection, I do so without hesitation and base those assurances by virtue of having "been there and done that" so very, very many times.

So striving for perfection is an admirable goal. And an obtainable one too. And I feel that if ANY degree of AL performance is to be contemplated, even with a 1080p PJ shooting 1080p imagery, in no way can a reference white screen compare to a well done advanced Gray application. I don't care if the PJ has 100,000:1 CR, a poorly done or mismatched DIY screen will not come off looking as good as a well done example. That is just to basic to be disputed. Would that perfection come "FinEasy". (I love that name )


Using such an adverse example, and the resulting need for Mega Lumens is not "reality based". It's interesting to note/see, and proves that Dark can be compensated for in the extreme, but in no way does it represent real world possibilities. At present that is.

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post #23 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

No disputing that. Depending on the "buy in" level, it's all about "Cost to Performance"

And it is all comparative.

If I use a $4k PJ, I'm not fudging on the decision to use a Mirror and go "Fusion". That applies as well to a $1.3k PJ. But for the under $800.00 PJ crowd, being able to say, "....and the screen is the wall (or a board) and cost under $50.00 to knock out." is all part of the fun of ownership.

'Suspender Poppin' rights, we's call it.

By all rights the guy spending 4 grand on a projector should be able to shine it on a knotty pine wall and get a flawless image.

The notion that the quality of the screen is somehow connected to the cost of a projector is ridiculous. If anything the cheaper projector should need the most help thus the state of the art screen.

The way it really works is if you can afford a $4000 projector then you should be able to afford a $4000 screen to go with it. If you need it or not.


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post #24 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

By all rights the guy spending 4 grand on a projector should be able to shine it on a knotty pine wall and get a flawless image.

The notion that the quality of the screen is somehow connected to the cost of a projector is ridiculous. If anything the cheaper projector should need the most help thus the state of the art screen.

The way it really works is if you can afford a $4000 projector then you should be able to afford a $4000 screen to go with it. If you need it or not.

That's "Elitest" thinking. I can use $70.00 33' HDMI cables whereas others' spring for $300.00 versions of the same because they "can" not because they "must", or "should".

I was just saying that a good DIY application has as much to offer an expensive PJ as an inexpensive one. And many times, the urge to buy "High" on a PJ is accompanied with a reality check.

Quote:
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By all rights the guy spending 4 grand on a projector should be able to shine it on a knotty pine wall and get a flawless image.

Awwww...., now that's just silly.

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post #25 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Bud:
As I stated, I have been paying pretty close attention to the various screen incarnations, the mixes, the fneasy etc.....
When I first got my PJ, I was blasting it onto the brownish gray walls that were there, and I could see that while I was amazed at what I was seeing, that the colors weren't right, so I painted it with what I had available, which just happened to be Ben Moore Flat White ceiling paint(I like Ben Moore paints, they roll VG).

It seems to me that alot of the discussions revolving around some of these "Hybrid" incarnations, were based on AL performance, especially when using low lumen PJS (Especially LCDs, like I said, I have been reading this very forum for over the past year, as I KNEW I was getting one), and obviously my DT500 is pretty bright, even at 115", hence the questioning if I were going to be wasting time, going from Flat white(which should be close to even across the 3 colors) to a mix or grey tone.

I TOTALLY agreed on the Neutral reasoning, the first time I started reading that thread, I was actually looking to see if it would make a big difference, considering that I control the lighting in this room, and most of the time, all the lights are OFF.

I also agree that that ceiling MUST be dealt with, I realised that IMMEDIATELY the first time I turned it on, I even suggested above, that I may take some spare tiles I have, and paint them black, the Black tape IS a good idea, because she is already giving resistance to the idea of me painting all the grids black, so Black Elec, tape(or that thin black hockey tape if I can find it would be better) for the gridlines-Thx, great idea.
When I painted the 8" on the sides of the screen, and covered the adjoining wall with TBV, the effect was IMMEDIATE, the reflections on the sides were gone.

I used to paint for a living, both roll and spray(new homes mostly), so painting isn't an issue, more of a PITA than anything.
I looked at that Wagner gun the other day, I was considering buying a wagner anyways because of all the trim and 6 panel doors I have in this house(which are WHITE), 6 panel doors are a real pita, so I actually have a good reason to get one.
I am considering spraying, but it's kind of tight in here, I would have to mask off a large area(adjoining wall- 8" away, ceiling- 1-2" away, horizontal tongue and groove 1-2" below, etc..), and use drops and the like as well, the real problem is ventilation, or should I say lack thereof.

I have access to SW paints(I go there quite a bit actually), Behr paints( NOT my favorite, don't smooth as well as BM), as well as BM, Glidden, PP etc, so I can basically get just about anything I need.

Thanks for the help deciding guys, and sorry for the long post.

m

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post #26 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 12:16 PM
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Muzz

Go to lowes etc and pick up a few paint cards in gray. And freeze the image on a contrast shot that has some black and some white and hold the card up to a transistion line in the contrast and see for yourself. The paint card is small but will give you a clue. I'm guessing you will be right around what I liked 20/48 LB per gallon. that will give you a starting point no matter how mild or wild you go.


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post #27 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Figures......... I JUST gave away my SW colordeck yesterday to a co-worker!!
Arrrrrrrrrrgh!!

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post #28 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 01:56 PM
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Mississippi Man:

Quote:

Absewlootely.
It was for a time the most preferred paint, and the best way to introduce SM into a White base. It's Gray base is quite dark, so it takes very little %-wise to darken a white to a basically neutral Gray. It has Mica flakes in abundance......very fine ones.....and at the small amounts introuduced via the small amounts of SM utilized, everything was as balanced as could be.

Butcha know, that was exactly what MMud-SE was all about, and why it worked so well. That led to PB taking interest in MMud-SE, and between us, the creation of RS-MaxxxMud, with it's use of the lighter hued Delta along with the Polyurethane. The addition of Pale Metallic Gold didn't happen until such was noted as being advantageous as a "corrective item" in BF aka Silver Fire.

Some few people were inclined to, and DID go beyond my recomendations (2-3 Oz. per 1/2 Gallon (Dark) or 2-3 Oz. per Gallon (lite).

Unquote:

I am sorry I haven't read this thread for a few days, so missed this very interesting post by you. I have a half gallon - about - of what I believe is the original MMud from back in 2003. Are you suggesting that I can simply add an ounce or so of my leftover Behr Silver Metallic (plastic quart container) to the Mud to take it down a little from very white to a light/neutral grey?

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post #29 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I HAD to go out anyway, and I was antsy.......
I went to the local HW store to see if the had equipment that tells ya the RGB values,but they didn't.

They sell Ben Moore paints.

I had them punch in SW7071, and the closest color they could get was "Pebble Beach"-EDIT: # 1597, so I took a look at both color cards, and they looked really really close, so I bought a QT. of it.......

Anyone here know the RGB values of this paint?

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post #30 of 42 Old 02-15-2007, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll tell ya what....

A Qt of paint doesn't go far at all!!

I'll see how she looks when it dries, and I hope it looks good, cuz I'd like to poly it and finally get my room back together!!

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