CMRA's S-I-L-V-E-R solution starts here: - Page 21 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #601 of 763 Old 05-01-2013, 07:30 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I made a couple of videos of the straining through the sock strainer and of me spraying. I don't know if its right or not to be honest. You'll want to turn the volume down a bit for the first video and yes, you have my permission to laugh frantically( as if you needed it, lol) in watching me trying to hold the camera with one hand, the gallon paint can with the other one and holding the paint cup with my feet. Once i saw it it made me laugh to, lol. Was hard getting a good view of the paint straining into the paint cup.

http://s591.photobucket.com/user/newdude19781/media/DSCF3960.mp4.html

http://s591.photobucket.com/user/newdude19781/media/DSCF3961.mp4.html

I'm concerned about the crater looking part in the paint pattern which you will see in the video. The pattern at 14 inches away is a little over 10 inches long so that meets the requirements. Here is a pic of a quick sweep over my plexiglass.

the paint doesn't gather well on the plexiglass it seemed to shrink into a bunch of dots. When doing S-I-L-V-E-R is the paint supposed to be a even thickness through the whole screen after making all your swipes from left to right using the paint gun. Like if you where trying to do a ligth fusion using Silver Fire and the whole layer has to be even and same thickness throughout?? I'm not familiar with this paint mixture and not sure how it's supposed to act but I'm not going any further until i get your opinion and approval. I'll make some more videos if you need.

narhic_fd is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #602 of 763 Old 05-01-2013, 08:23 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
No!

Gosh....I'm not laughing.

I know you already know that dusters are sparse....and that translates to being dots until the following coats fills in the spaces.

When applied to Plastic, the look of "speckling" is enhanced with the first sparse coats. And the shrinkage....that's what paint does when it dries. There is not enough put up for it to "cover" so the big dots become smaller dots, the space between them get bigger, and the next coat shoots paint spots into the vacant areas. They (dots) also shrink....but now there are smaller spaces waiting for the next round of "Dots" Etc. Etc. Etc.

Man...if they did not shrink, and instead flowed together, they would gather weight, reach a shearing point, and start a cascading motion.

AKA: RUNS !!!!

Example to compare? Think Rain Drops on a vertical window pane running together. After 3-4 collect, down they go, collecting more and more....going faster.........OMG.

I'm scaring myself! Really...because I've seen paint do essentially the exact same thing. So let those droplets DRY ! Never try to rush the "Fill In" time table. Be patient and careful, and everything will do just fine.


OH yeah....paint straining looks just about perfect. cool.gif But now I know you realize that spending for a extra New Gallon Can to strain the mix into would eliminate having to strain each and every Cupful. And should you need to restir after 2-3 hours, you can do so and just keep on pouring.

Gotta love those Prehensile Footsies though...... biggrin.gif

So now you've seen just how wet S-I-L-V-E-R is.....adhere rigidly to the advised technique...and if anything, err on caution's side and go faster from a further distance and maintain the needed overlap....rather than EVER do rows from a closer distance and slower speed.

And OMG...never stop in one place...or start up the Gun while within the paint-able Screen area..

No paint mix is more apt to run than S-I-L-V-E-R

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #603 of 763 Old 05-01-2013, 09:04 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks MississippiMan. That info relieves my fears. I guess I'll go ahead start spraying my TWH tomorrow and will keep you on how it's going.
narhic_fd is offline  
post #604 of 763 Old 05-02-2013, 07:50 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!So, I did my first layer and I think something big is wrong. I fear i might have to much water in the mixture. The mixtures acts as if there is to much water and not enough paint. And the solution is separating to much instead of putting a layer down like if you spray with paint. I made another video, a better one LOL, that shows the dilution straining rate through the filter and of my screen. Whats your take on it:

http://s591.photobucket.com/user/newdude19781/media/DSCF3970.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0

here's also some more pics of the screen:





Maybe something with gun, I'm not sure. Your advise?? what could be causing this??
narhic_fd is offline  
post #605 of 763 Old 05-02-2013, 08:11 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
If it doesn't run...run with it. Give it at least 4 Dusters then inspect.

Or leave it (the Can) open overnight, and stir.

Sheesh...how many times does it have to be said that a true Duster does not put a "layer" down....just a dusting of "spots" ? I see spots.

You really should take my advice and strain the entire mix at once.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #606 of 763 Old 05-02-2013, 08:36 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
okay. I just wasn't sure if those spots were to big or not?? Won/t that show up as big dots(or big to me) in the final outcome??I would think that those Dot's would be very evident once the last layer is put on and the screen is done? I took your advise and strained the entire mix as well.
narhic_fd is offline  
post #607 of 763 Old 05-05-2013, 08:00 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I was wondering. I'll have a bunch of the mix left over and was wondering how would S-I-L-V-E-R do on black out cloth, that you buy at a fabric store. The catch is though, that I want to be able roll it up so i can take it from one place to another to use with my projector?? I would like to paint a big 4 ft by 7ft black out cloth to bring with me when i go to my friends house that i can hang up and take down when i get ready to leave. Would this be possible. don't need to super roll it up just enough rolls to put in vehicle.
narhic_fd is offline  
post #608 of 763 Old 05-06-2013, 06:48 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Due to the need for S-I-L-V-E-R to have a blemish free surface, and the fact that spraying onto BOC usually requires that it receive Primer and sanding, I'd advise against it. Of course you could try a direct application.....without the primer coats...and you would have to sand the surface after the 3rd / 4th coats to remove the infamous "Fuzzies" (...another reason for priming....) and while I'm certain the coating would retain flexibility, repeated moving and rolling / folding / accidental creasing would undoubtedly take a toll.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #609 of 763 Old 05-06-2013, 08:32 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
guess it would be better to find another paint mixture then. I guess i search the forums and see if i can find a simple paint mixture to do the tast and still hold up to the rolling and unrolling.
narhic_fd is offline  
post #610 of 763 Old 05-07-2013, 05:28 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Search here.....S-I-L-V-E-R isn't the only choice, and you'll need a paint that is flexible....not much else anywhere else will be.

RS-MaxxMudd is you best choice IMO.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #611 of 763 Old 05-13-2013, 05:33 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Change of plans. I was going to do S-I-L-V-E-R on a sheet of TWH but found out my screen size will be way to big for the TWH. I was really wanting to avoid spraying on my wall itself so I don't have to repaint if I ever move out. Since, I can't find anything bigger then 4ft x 8ft that is as cheap as the TWH, I'm going to just spray on the wall. I know I need to make the wall surface "Baby Butt Smooth" as it's called, so should I just begin sanding the wall first then spray on 2 coats of Killz Primer or spray the primer on first then sand the primer to baby butt smooth?? Second, If I sand the wall first, What grit sand paper should I begin with for the serious sanding? What finer grit sand paper should I end with to smooth it all out??
narhic_fd is offline  
post #612 of 763 Old 05-18-2013, 08:03 AM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
want to sand today so Which would be the right grit sandpaper to use for??
narhic_fd is offline  
post #613 of 763 Old 05-18-2013, 09:36 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post

want to sand today so Which would be the right grit sandpaper to use for??

Get two 3" x 7" x 1" Sanding Sponges. One from the HD Paint Department...a Medium / Coarse combo and using the Coarse side first, sweep sand the surface to be painted with light but even strokes. Do a "once over" with every area receiving 8-10 swipes...the move over slightly and continue.

Now without wiping, take the Medium side and repeat, using slightly more pressure.

Lastly, wipe off the dust...then use the same size Fine Grit Sponge found in the "Drywall" section, and do very tall, vertical strokes with a light touch, taking pains to keep you palm flat on as much surface area of the Sponge as possible while applying just light pressure. Be sure to slightly overlap each vertical sanded row with the ensuing row.

Now you prime...two coats....then using the Fine Sponge again in the same manner as previously described. Then apply a final coat of Primer. You should have that "Baby But" smooth surface in front of you.

But even so...shine a bright light across the surface of the screen from one side then the other, and carefully inspect the surface for any blemishes. (...mostly cracks - pin holes - varying texture...)

Then you start spraying S-I-L-V-E-R. Expect the first coat to look like a Polka-Dot kinda splatter...but with very small "dots. Those "dots" are your friends...after they dry they act like little pinions to help subsequent layers to "tooth" and hold on (...not run or slide...) You already know it takes 8 coats...and every coat goes up in the same manner. Very light....very quickly....70% overlap....14" distance....about 3 seconds transit time across a 9' wide surface, Be sure you run off (past) the screen's desired surface area, drop the 30% of Row height, then head back the other direction.

Never stop in the middle of a row...never slow down....never "go back" to fill in an area you think you did too sparsely....let the next coat fill in. Don't rush the drying time required after you have 4-5 coats up because drying time WILL increase.from just under 30 minutes to up to a full hour under even good drying conditions. The only reason the Faux Glaze will dry in a hour is because it's applied so thinly.

If there is one thing I should stress the most, it's "Be Consistent". Second most important....let the screen dry adequately between coats.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #614 of 763 Old 05-19-2013, 03:23 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Get two 3" x 7" x 1" Sanding Sponges. One from the HD Paint Department...a Medium / Coarse combo and using the Coarse side first, sweep sand the surface to be painted with light but even strokes. Do a "once over" with every area receiving 8-10 swipes...the move over slightly and continue.

When you say "sweep sand" MississippiMan, what do you mean exactly. Should i be starting from the top and sanding down or from the right or left and move left and right. Should i do overlap sanding like if was spraying a screen and overlapping each row by the 60% to 70%?? How much pressure should i be placing on the sanding sponge when using the coarse side?
narhic_fd is offline  
post #615 of 763 Old 05-19-2013, 05:47 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
....read my last post again.....3rd paragraph...it's all there..that's the paragraph you should have quoted.

Up & Down. Long, Tall Light Strokes. Overlap the next preceding row.

Paragraphs 1 &3 describe the same method....just differ in the use of various Grit Sanding Sponges.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #616 of 763 Old 05-19-2013, 08:03 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

....read my last post again.....3rd paragraph...it's all there..that's the paragraph you should have quoted.

Up & Down. Long, Tall Light Strokes. Overlap the next preceding row.

Paragraphs 1 &3 describe the same method....just differ in the use of various Grit Sanding Sponges.

Thats what i was thinking but i just wanted to be sure about it. Thanks Mississippiman.
narhic_fd is offline  
post #617 of 763 Old 05-20-2013, 08:33 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Think i put WAY to much water in my S-I-L-V-E-R mix. It's straining to quickly. Left the lid of and set the gallon container in the sun to evaporate some of the water. Problem i see with it though, is that as some of the water does evaporate some of the mix also drys. Might need to leave it off couple of days. Whats the best rout when it comes to getting some of the water out of the mix without causing the paint to dry up to??
narhic_fd is offline  
post #618 of 763 Old 05-21-2013, 01:21 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Well you don't put it in the sun! Just leave the lid off for a few hours, and go back every 2 hours to stir. 6 hours out to do it. Stir, restrain, and try again.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #619 of 763 Old 06-14-2013, 09:00 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
So, I'm finally getting around to getting my wall prepared to paint on. I'm going about filling the screws holes in with spackle paste. Few questions before I paint though.
I know the wall surface I'm painting the S-I-L-V-E-R on has to be near perfect. One problem I have is that on certain parts of the wall there are little raised spots from the screws that where screwed in to attach the drywall to the boards behind them. I'm guessing I'm going to have to try to pull the paint and spackle off the original painters job that was used to hide the screw heads but How do I go about getting rid of those raised parts due to the screw head??? I just can't take the screws out because then the Drywall would loose support that the screws add. What do I do abut this. Second, my wall has little dents here and there from stuff hitting the wall so do I need to make sure to fill in every little hole and what not with spackle to get the whole surface to be even in all respects??
narhic_fd is offline  
post #620 of 763 Old 06-15-2013, 01:35 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Do not use Spackle. It does not dry with the same texture as Dry Wall Compound. If a hole is deep, Spackle can be used to fill it up to a point where a final application of Dry Wall Compound fills / covers the small remaining depression.

The Screws need to be reset. Carefully scrape away / cut away the top of each Screw bump, and using a Hand held Phillips, twist the screws in just enough more to set the Bugle head slightly below the surface of the paper.

Then fill with Compound, let dry, sand, then skin once again. There is ONE correct way to fill / cover Screw heads. It starts with the Screws being sunk correctly.

So avoid Spackle. It is just a rapid drying mix that has too coarse a texture, and it's also got a different absorbancy. No one ever uses it for anything other a quick "Hole Filler-upper" Use Compound, usually at least two ;light applications, to fill up slight scratches and dent. Scrape down any "bunp" the skim. After you have hit every defect and sanded them smooth (...tip: Sand the edges of any area first until "feathered" then only VERY LIGHTLY sand the center of the "blemish".)... skim the entire Screen surface with a light coat of Compound, and lightly sand. Only by creating a surface where the texture is the same all over will you really achieve a "perfect" base to apply both Primer and S-I-L-V-E-R

It seems I've related all this before. But it also always bears repeating.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #621 of 763 Old 06-18-2013, 10:12 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
is kilz or kilz2 the still recommended primer to be sprayed on before spraying the s-i-l-v-e-r on. 2 coats of primer sprayed on with the no name paint gun, right?
narhic_fd is offline  
post #622 of 763 Old 06-19-2013, 12:18 AM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Also, Im curious.about something. I know s-i-l-v-e-r is ment to be sprayed on top of a white background but has anyone tried it with the added use of a mirror. Now, first let me explain. I don't mean getting rid of the white under layer of Kilz primer and using just the mirror but what if you sprayed the Kilz primer on a mirror first then sprayed the s-i-l-v-e-r on that. Or to better explain. Put on just enough Kilz primer that it gives the needed white undercoat to make the s-i-l-v-e-r work but making the Kilz just slightly thin enough that it allows a little projector light to pass through the primer and hit the mirror to give a fusion of contrast help from the dark underlying of the mirror. Just curious if something like that would be okay to do without messing up the original formulas gain.
narhic_fd is offline  
post #623 of 763 Old 06-19-2013, 03:28 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
It's been done that way before with SF-Light Fusion. With S-I-L-V-E-R it would be speculative as to exactly how much / little Kilz-2 would be right. With S-I-L-V-E-R already possessing substantial gain, I'm certain it would take a minimum of 3-4 light coats.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #624 of 763 Old 06-21-2013, 09:23 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I've been chewing on some things in my mind lately, finally getting some dots connected on the map, or I hope so. I wanted to see if my thinking is right, Half right, or heck i would be happy with somewhat right. Been thinking a lot about Light Fusion and it's use in S-I-L-V-E-R. Heck, Ive just been thinking about light fusion in general.
I've read bunches of post on here pertaining to light fusion. Rather it be "White Fusion" or "Mirrored Light Fusion". The problem I've had is that me definition was slightly off, I think. When ever i would hear the word Light Fusion i would think that to have Light Fusion you had to have some sort of gap by the use of a plexiglass or something like, painted with a white paint for "white fusion" or painted with a silver metallic or mirror for a Dark color fusion where once done with the top coat it would only allow about 10% of the projector light through and get trapped in the mix on it's way being reflected back out by your mirror or whatever. You HAD to have that last 10% not making it out, and a gap. Then that gap and only that gap would give you the fusion and your slight glow "White Fusion" for a kick in the pants on the whites being reintroduce and a mirror or ,silver metallic backing, for a kick in the pants of better dark color, or contrast plus what ever color you are using for your top coat rather it be Silver FIre, MaxxMudd, or whatever color you want to use for your top coat.
From reading other post i see that depending on how reflective your fusion bottom coating is( rather it be mirror or whatever) you need a thicker top coat to keep Hot spotting from occurring. The less reflective the fusion coating is the fewer amount of top coats you need. That why when it comes to using mirrors you have to have more top coats. In case of Silver Fire on a mirror you need 7 or more top coat of Silver Fire to make use of the mirror but keep the projectors lens from hot spotting off the mirror.
I find it amazing how MIssissippiMan, Pbmax and others of this forum are able to come up with a mixture that gives you max result within those 7-8 coats but yet has enough translucency and just right amount opaqueness to do the job.
The problem that lead to the light bulb going off is that I remembered on another post MississippiMan said about how people on the forum would use the TWH to do "White Fusion" these days as well as a mirror. I though "Wait" the mirror is more reflective then a TWH. I said " How can you get a white fusion that equals that 10% being stuck in the gap with a TWH(thrifty white Hardwood). I thought since you needed fewer coat, Maybe 5, to negate the Hot spot from the coating on the TWH that wouldn't be enough coats to make full use of the Silver FIre since it's a 7 to 8 coat paint job. Not to mention, where is the gap!?!? Thats when i realized that though a gap is used in TRUE "Light Fusion" the term fusion is also used for a general term for when the light from the underlying surface was being reintroduced into the top coats. You didn't need a plexiglass or gap in general for "fusion" to occur you just need the gap for true " Light Fusion". Now after that ahuh moment i realized many things for light fusion. As long as you had some underlying coat reflecting a contrasting color onto a opposite top coat you had a type of fusion. If thats the case then even S-I-L-V-E-R is a type of "Fusion" (because of the white off the primer or TWH was being introduced into the top grey coating of S-I-L-V-E-R). Am I right on this??? Is that what the general turn for light fusion refers to, a setup where the color of the bottom coat is being reintroduced into your top coating?? My walls are currently a dark brown color. I guess if I decided to paint a white screen over the brown and allowed the coating just thick enough of the white to allow some light through and bounce of the brown underneath and reintroduce with my white top coat that even that would qualify for a type of fusion??
Now with all that being said i have couple questions regarding the S-I-L-V-E-R. I've noticed that with the S-I-L-V-E-R we are using a white background such as a TWH or some Kilz primer. I would think that you would want to have the brightest, most reflective and glossy's white background to make sure the most white is being reintroduced back into the S-I-L-V-E-R top coat. Now, I know i read earlier that you might not want the glossy white background because due to S-I-L-V-E-R's translucency you would probably get a hot spot from the projector but wouldn't you want something that has more reflectivity then a flat primer as Kilz or the TWH?? Possibly a white primer with a Semigloss. Something that would give the most refection of the "white" component but not to glossy to give you a hot spot??
narhic_fd is offline  
post #625 of 763 Old 06-22-2013, 05:37 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Well... you have some things right, something kinda right, a few things kind of mixed up, and a couple 2 or 3 things wrong.

All of which ain't bad considering the subject at hand, how much reading you have done, and therin the potential for mis understanding or misinterpretation.

I am driving along at freeway speeds tin early morning traffic, so a detailed response will have to wait for a little bit. But let me say this, out of all of the above you have more things right than you have wrong.

How'd that happened? confused.gifbiggrin.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #626 of 763 Old 06-22-2013, 03:24 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Well... you have some things right, something kinda right, a few things kind of mixed up, and a couple 2 or 3 things wrong.

All of which ain't bad considering the subject at hand, how much reading you have done, and therin the potential for mis understanding or misinterpretation.

I am driving along at freeway speeds tin early morning traffic, so a detailed response will have to wait for a little bit. But let me say this, out of all of the above you have more things right than you have wrong.

How'd that happened? confused.gifbiggrin.gif

Thanks mississippiman. Look forward to your response. Please, I hope your not typing this while your driving on the freeway!!!??? I don't want to be responsible for the death of our needed member of the AVS forum!! LOL.
narhic_fd is offline  
post #627 of 763 Old 06-23-2013, 11:08 AM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post

Thanks mississippiman. Look forward to your response. Please, I hope your not typing this while your driving on the freeway!!!??? I don't want to be responsible for the death of our needed member of the AVS forum!! LOL.

It would be my fault....no one else's. But I do use "Speak to Text " 99% of the time, and I don't try to edit out the nonsensical translations while driving. (...wait...did I just see a Pig go flying past my window? ) Really though...Boys & Girls...think of the safety of others if not your own.

It's really all just a case where I don't want to keep Posters waiting if it can be avoided, especially those on the cusp of getting started. I really hate seeing post where it's stated, "I'm getting ready to mix / paint and I thought I'd check back to ask for last minute guidance."...or worse..." I guess I should have waited for a response." Going to the trouble of responding asap is much better than having to exert damage control. So...I jump as fast as possible when someone has a plea.

So now...... here's both a lesson and explanation about the history of all things "Mudd", S-I-L-V-E-R, and "Light Fusion"...leading up to and including Silver Fire. cool.gif

White Fusion is a term I coined to describe the use of a bright White substrate / Coating that when combined with a "directly over layed" Translucent Top Coating of whatever color / shade, contributes to the brightness of the image as seen reflected off the topmost surface.

This is not an original idea. Props must go to Ken Hottie, the original creator of GOO's CRT White. In that case, a Bright White paint was applied to whatever surface was chosen, then a "very translucent" white Top Coat over that. But Goo had significant issues over roller marks being almost a certainty, and back in 2003, there were precious few DIY'ers who could / would opt to use HVLP Rigs (Tanks-Hoses-Guns- Filters...etc.) Ken tried hard to convince end users to spray was preferable, but he also sold Rolling Kits, so most everyone who bit down on the concept opted to roll.

I myself did about 4 screens....BIG screens, using GOO CRT White, and while it certainly worked, the cost and concerns just left me wondering about how the whole thing might be made simpler and more cost effective.

So instead, MississippiMudd was born...a Mix that combined both translucency and highly reflective White properties into a roll-able, one step application. And...considering it cost about 1/4 as much as Goo, it seemed to catch on fairly quickly. wink.gif

Moving ahead, MMudd was applied over pure Silver Metallic paint so as to augment contrast. Prior to that, people just used a Gray or Black undercoating, but those simple solutions usually resulted in undue attenuation, leaving one to realize they might just as well of painted the surface Gray in the first place.

But "Silver Metallic / MMudd" was a pretty difficult do....as the SM was also very difficult to apply without leaving Roller Marks / Ridges that would show through the MMudd Top Coat...which by nature had to be translucent and thin enough to allow the SM to be of any effect. Basically, the real issues revolved around the difference between Rolling & Spraying, and up to the MMudd/SM era, I was staunchly against the idea that DIY'ers had to out of hand spend $3-500.00 on complete, cumbersome HVLP Rigs.

But eventually I relented, owning to the realization that Roller marks were the leading cause many aspiring DIY'ers were choosing not to try their hand in making a DIY Screen.. I got one, and struggled for almost 2 years trying to make the darn, syrupy MMudd flow through the HVLP Guns, which used 2.2 mm Needles / Nozzles out of necessity. I resisted the idea of thinning the paint with Water, and those who tried using Flotrol had some bad experiences. And thinning Silver Metallic paint seemed to make no sense whatsoever, so the undercoats were still rolled on.

Then, a wise Auto Painter on Vancouver Island used some MMudd I had ferried over personally to make a spray coated Parkland Plastic screen. He watered down the paint, and showed me just how smooth a surface could be had.

All the above led to the eventual use of Mirrors to replace Silver Metallic paint, and avoid any Rolling issues altogether. The whole idea behind using Mirrors was to improve basic Gray Scale contrast and detail (not deep blacks) and provide a depth to the image that a flat, opaque surface simply could not. What also happened...somewhat unexpectedly, was a "Glow", and a increase in gain. For a while, that was enough, and catapulted Light Fusion to prominence.

Then, as PJ's started providing deeper contrast, the drive to present that contrast unmitigated by "brightness" became more valued, and some lamented the Light Fusion with MMudd did nothing to "drastically improve", let alone maintain contrast. Basically, people wanted / expected more.

Personally, I didn't want to do what most everyone else considered as being standard...add Lamp Black and "Gray-up" the paint. So I turned back to Silver Metallic, and mixing only a small amount into MMudd (2-4 oz per 3 quart mix) I used the Gray element within the SM to provide the darker shading, while using the Metallic Content to maintain gain. Viola'....MMud-SE (Silver Edition) came into being, and when combined with Light Fusion, created the first real examples of a screen that could both augment contrast, and maintain / increase gain. This allowed PJs like the Infocus X-1 / X2 and the Sanyo Z 2-3-4s of the world to show images that looked every bit as good as their $5000+ DLP cousins, something DIY'ers took a hold of with a strong embrace.

The entire equation then took a big step with the insertion of PB-maxx's suggestion that the Deep Base component be replaced by Polyurethane and Water. Bam. Now we had RS-MaxxMudd. And with that development, ambient light performance took a big jump. At the same time SONY came up with the early Black Screen concept called Chroma-View, a real "Light Gobbler" and smallish screen that cost a small fortune, but that also caught the attention of the growing number of individuals who wanted to watch big screen images in lighting conditions that were not ever considered possible before. Of course, unless you had a real Beamer of a PJ, (2K+ Lumen HD -PJs in 2004 were not the norm) and could accept 82" diagonal as your largest screen option, it wasn't really a viable application, and quickly fell out of favor.

But of course, the Boys over on "Screens" just had to taunt us DIY app developers, and toss down a challenge: "Can you Guys come up with a DIY version of the Chorma-View?". They said it with a snicker..... thinking "How the hell will they create a layered Film approach?" But shoot, we already had distinct "layers" with "Mirrored" Light Fusion, so instead, the focus turned to just how dark can the Top Coat go before there was a point of diminishing returns?

Here is where the story goes controversial. Yes, before that, some liked to pick apart Light Fusion (...mostly Mfg Screen advocates) but when we started messin' around trying to match up against really expensive Screens such as the Vutec Silver Star, and DNP Super Nova s of the world, we became targets for some pretty excessive efforts to destroy any validity of advanced DIY efforts.

Didn't phase us though....much. PB & I worked together to create what was known at the time as Black Flame, and alteration of RS-MaxxMudd that used a RGBY colorant mix of tints, loosely mixed within a Water / Poly base, to darken the paint mix while also maintaining a higher degree of Translucency. What we didn't know during development was just how effective it was going to be....nor did we know just how much resistance we would meet from several sides. We were concerned that someone (Goo perhaps?) would take our idea and commercialize it, so we applied for a Patent on it. Whoo Boy! Such a stink that caused! So much antagonism and accusations of profiteering, (...the latter despite our publishing the formula... rolleyes.gif) and comments about it all being "Snake Oil". Some people trolled and pursued our every postings, even followed us onto other Forums here and abroad, and waged war ceaselessly.

We didn't just touch a nerve, we almost started a near Apocalypse in the DIY world, one that threatened the entire DIY community because of the continued efforts of those who wanted to take down everything we were doing...and both PB & myself as well.

Fortunately most all of that lies in the past, although there are some elements that never have relented in their efforts. But the fact remains clear that without our holding fast to the idea that DIY Screens could advance into the upper echelons of performance, even our detractors might never have go forward to accept and embrace those ideals. So at least there was some good come out of all the torment.

Now then....for a spell, Black Flame Light Fusion held sway....but continued rebukes over that name, and it's association with the Patent, led us to change the name to Silver Fire, and withdraw from posting the original Formulas we used pertaining to such. That didn't stop DIY SF from performing better than anything else "paint-wise". And we continued to work to improve the DIY formula. Then........

................the biggest Mfg of Plastic Mirrors sold out to the sole remaining Mfg. , effectively shutting off the supply of truly Epic Sized Mirrors. (4' x 9' - 5' x 9' - 5' x 10" - 6' x 8' -and the biggun' 6' x 10' ) What to do?

Further improve the SF mix...and go Back to the Future and use the idea of a Bright White substrate to augment Whites and maintain gain, while also allowing the surface to be dark enough to improve Contrast as seem directly on-screen.

So where is "S-I-L-V-E-R" s place in this dissertation? CMRA (..also a early Light Fusion advocate, and the very first to use a Mirror with MMudd...) decided that if translucency is good, and Silver Metallic is good, the why not mix just a wee bit of SM into a Gallon of Matte Faux Glaze, thin it with water to almost a fault, then "DUST" on many multiple, ultra thin coats, until one has created a deep, Silver Metallic infused coating.........over a White substrate. It's only short coming? It's gain combined with a light gray surface sisn't work all that well as resisting ambient light.

In doing so, S-I-L-V-E-R came to life, and it provided more gain than any BF / SF / LF application to date, yet the preponderance of Silver Metallic helped Blacks and Colors jump off the screen like nothing else ever had.

But of course, S-I-L-V-E-R's very make up required Spraying...only and always. And that spraying had to be meticulous and correct, as the repeated coats had to all be done exactingly, and the underlying surface had to be pristine because the almost pure Silver Metallic coating would transfer any underlying defect of blemish to the surface. And lastly, if too much Silver Metallic was either mixed in, or too many layers applied so that the coating was too richly infused, the gain went through the roof, creating a almost Mirror-like effect with the resulting glare and hot spotting one would expect from such a overly reflective surface.

That is why S-I-L-V-E-R isn't used on a Mirror, just over a Bright Flat White substrate.White primer was preferred because it also created a surface the watery S-I-L-V-E-R would hold onto. Using a Glossy White substrate like TWH can work as well, but requires all the more care during the initial first coats, as they must absolutely be ultra thin , freckle-ly Dusters that dry to create some tack for subsequent coats to adhere to.

S-I-L-V-E-R is applied to the point that one cannot no longer see a mottled appearance, one where the substrate can easily be seen through the S-I-L-V-E-R Top Coats. But ONLY and just to that point.

Lastly, darkening S-I-L-V-E-R would not work because it is S-I-L-V-E-R's light coloration, and the underlying White Surface that prevents the amount of Silver Metallic suspended within the Faux Glaze from looking like millions of tiny grains of light.

PB & I have works on higher Gain versions of Silver Fire...up to 3.0 gain and beyond in fact, but always, the difference between the lightest, most reflective elements and those of the darker Gray base have created a graininess, as well as a unwanted degree of directional gain....both being things we have always tried to "design out" of any advanced DIY applications to our credit. And old habits...as well as standards die hard.

Now then...on this Thread, buried away where only those with the patience and desire to know will take note, let me state that we are so very close to achieving a solid 2.5 gain Black screen with no Graininess, and whose reflectivity is dispersed in the same manner as S-I-L-V-E-R 's is....through a translucent coating whose reflective elements are scattered and non-aligned with the PJ's beam. This will prevent the overt loss of Viewing Cone, something S-I-L-V-E-R itself does not suffer from. But it will also allow for the best ambient light performance we have ever offered.

Raising the DIY Screen performance bar has been, is...and always will be what we are all about. And we will get'ter dun too. When we roll our newest incarnation out sometime late this Summer, it will create some real excitement among those who need such performance...as well as some consternation and denial from a select few as well, of that I'm certain. That PB & I have never rested on our laurels, nor ever accepted "also-ran" status among the DIY Screen community, isn't about being "Top Dog"...it's about being responsible for providing something special and unique for DIY'ers to consider and aspire to having. That is what is of paramount importance, and what drives us to continue onward into the future.

Believe it. cool.gif

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #628 of 763 Old 06-23-2013, 08:40 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks MississippiMan. That little bit in DIY history helped me understand a few things better. It also helped me understand S-I-L-V-E-R's formula and use better. I will admit, the tidbit on the black screen your working on has me a bit excited. A screen that will give awesome ambient light performance not to mention one that will better retain projector brightness with AWESOME contrast enhancement, that is DIY....well... You deff will ruffle a few manufactures feathers when that's released. Will you be able to use this formula with a "light Fusion" set up as well?? Taking advantage of a mirror or if you wanted to, using a TWH to do a "white Fusion" to introduce some whites back into the picture?
One other quick question. What is the diff between light fusion without the gap, Like if you were spraying Silver Fire straight on to a sheet of Mylar or TWH attached to the wall vs using a mirror, or plexiglass with SM or some white painted on one side?? Diff between gap and non gap??
narhic_fd is offline  
post #629 of 763 Old 06-24-2013, 09:27 PM
DIY Grand Dad (w/help)
 
MississippiMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Byhalia, Mississippi. Waaaay down in the Bottoms
Posts: 15,281
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 305 Post(s)
Liked: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by narhic_fd View Post

Thanks MississippiMan.
One other quick question. What is the diff between light fusion without the gap, Like if you were spraying Silver Fire straight on to a sheet of Mylar or TWH attached to the wall vs using a mirror, or plexiglass with SM or some white painted on one side?? Diff between gap and non gap??

We've discussed this before...it just got lost among the months of all your other questions. tongue.gifwink.gifbiggrin.gif

Without the gap, the degree of thickness (depth) of the Top Coat must increase....but the break-even point also becomes more defined. The balance between Surface Opacity and Translucency and underlying Reflectivity becomes a VERY precise thing to achieve.....that is why it's seldom ever suggested or even discussed. That sort of "Reflective Translucent Paint directly applied onto a 1st Surface Mirrored surface" is called "First Surface Light Fusion"...because the reflective surface is at the top and is directly covered. But really, you already know that application over a "Glossy White" is White Fusion......it's only over a 1st Surface Mirror (...or Mylar...) or 2nd Surface Mirror that the application is distinctly "Light Fusion".

Keep 'em straight!

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
MississippiMan is offline  
post #630 of 763 Old 06-25-2013, 05:13 PM
Senior Member
 
narhic_fd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks MississippiMan for the repeated clarification for me.
narhic_fd is offline  
Reply DIY Screen Section

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off