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post #181 of 763 Old 09-12-2007, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

Naw. MM and I have been AVS sparing partners since 2003. You newbies have some AVS history to catch up on.

Cool. Glad I had the wrong impression; I'm a bit gun-shy of late - long story having nothing to do with AVS.

Your statement above is very correct, the problem is there is SO MUCH history to get caught up on!

If I understand things correctly, you are the primary inventor of the S-I-L-V-E-R mix. In your opinion, would it be the wrong choice for a 45x60 screen with a 1500 lumen PJ?
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post #182 of 763 Old 09-13-2007, 04:09 AM
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Thanks Bud. Could you please point me in the "ambient light control" paint direction? I guess I made the mistake of thinking that because my PJ is an entry-level unit it would be a bit under-powered; it seems that's not one of it's short-comings.

Given a small screen or a bright projector or both you have the potential for to much light. Most people have the opposite problem and try and stretch the lumens they have. In the case of too many one method to use is a neutral density filter at the projector and we call them ND filters a ND2 for example will cut the lumens in half without any loss in the image info. Another method and the method I prefer would be a screen that absorbs some of the extra lumens, reason being it will also help at the same time with ambient light issues.

Below in my signature I have a few threads I started with my thoughts on this and there are many more refined threads on the subject of Low Gain Gray Screens.

This idea of getting the Foot Lamberts right based around the lighting level you expect the room to have while viewing is important. In a total black room a big image with 60FL would cause a lot of eye strain. In a more well lit room our eyes adjust and 60FL might not seem like to much. the problem is in a well lit room with front projection we loose the ability to see blacks on the screen. because black is the projector projecting no light or little light, so you see black as what the screen is. That's where a darker shaded screen helps trick our eyes but that can only work if we have lots of lumens to start.

In your case that seems to be the case.


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post #183 of 763 Old 09-13-2007, 08:33 AM
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Hi all, this has been a great series of threads, thanks to everyone for their input and advice. After reading through this for the past two nights I'm going to redo my screen with the S-I-L-V-E-R method. I noticed in the recent posts the original "Behr SM" has been replaced with "Delta Ceramcoat SM". Does it really matter which one is used? I'm heading to HD and want to pick it all up in one spot if possible. TIA
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post #184 of 763 Old 09-13-2007, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrassat1.8t View Post

Hi all, this has been a great series of threads, thanks to everyone for their input and advice. After reading through this for the past two nights I'm going to redo my screen with the S-I-L-V-E-R method. I noticed in the recent posts the original "Behr SM" has been replaced with "Delta Ceramcoat SM". Does it really matter which one is used? I'm heading to HD and want to pick it all up in one spot if possible. TIA

Good Q. MM is heading this way and we are going to have a 'silver' shootout.
So, you may want to delay that trip for a bit.
On the other hand, you can go for it. Both are obviously up to task. I suspect the real benefit would be ease of application, which has yet to be determined.
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post #185 of 763 Old 09-13-2007, 10:10 AM
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well, I think I found a source locally that sells the Ceramcoat so I may get both. Maybe even mix the two when I add it to the glaze and experiment with a 50/50 silver mix (meaning, leaving the 95% - 5% ratio alone and using equal parts of the two SM's to make up the 5% ratio) for the dust coats?? Thoughts on that?
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post #186 of 763 Old 09-13-2007, 01:39 PM
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I'm definitely a new kid on the block, so maybe I have this wrong, but I think it was said that the Delta Ceramcoat Silver is brighter than the Behr Silver; something about the Behr having some black flakes in it to make it darker.

Looking forward to the "shoot-out"!

BTW, depending on the amount of silver metallic needed in a mix, the Delta can be cheaper. It comes in 4 and 8 ounce bottles ($1.99 and $3.99 respectively at Michael's), while the Behr costs $19.99 for a 32 ounce jar at HD. Also, I've seen the Delta paints on sale at Michael's for 25% off.
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post #187 of 763 Old 09-13-2007, 08:30 PM
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UPDATE!! Ok, so I headed out to HD and the craft section of the local Walmart. Walmart did in fact carry the Ceramcoat, however, not in MS.......bummer......so I looked around and stumbled upon another brand called "folkArt, 873 Silver Sterling Metallic" It is made by a company called "Plaid" It was $2.49 for an 8 oz bottle so I grabbed one and then headed to HD. I pick out everything I needed except.............they DO NOT carry the Behr MS. All they had was gold and pearlescent. So, now my question is do I take a chance with this folkart stuff and see how it looks or try and source the Behr or Ceramcoat from another source? I have the feeling I may be splitting hairs here. In reality do you think this folkart SM is THAT much different from the Ceramcoat stuff??? All the experts please chime in!! Here is a link to their site: http://www.plaidonline.com/productDetail.asp?itemID=873
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post #188 of 763 Old 09-14-2007, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Anthrassat1.8t View Post

UPDATE!! In reality do you think this folkart SM is THAT much different from the Ceramcoat stuff???

Yes and no. Whenever you change ingredients, your result varies. Then again, a good substitute could potentially produce even better results. Only one way to know for sure.
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post #189 of 763 Old 09-14-2007, 11:43 AM
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How did I know you were going to answer it that way!! lol..........well, guess I'll have to give it a shot and see what kind of results I end up with. I'm going to try and get the screen painted this weekend so I'll post up some results when I'm finished.
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post #190 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 08:39 AM
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I have a question. I am working on a S-I-L-V-E-R (Delta not Behr)application right now (check out my HT build link below.)

What I have realized is that it is very hard to see the duster coats going on. I don't know exactly how much overlap I am getting with each row. I have also noticed that after my first S-I-L-V-E-R coat over the base, I have a lot of heterogeneity of the droplet sizes, making a salt-and-pepper type texture (not salt-and-pepper color like the Behr has been reported by MM to make.) This will probably go away with more coats, but my question is

How many turns out from seated are you guys putting the +/- control knob on the Wagner CS for each duster coat?

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post #191 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcritch View Post

I have a question. I am working on a S-I-L-V-E-R (Delta not Behr)application right now (check out my HT build link below.)

What I have realized is that it is very hard to see the duster coats going on. I don't know exactly how much overlap I am getting with each row. I have also noticed that after my first S-I-L-V-E-R coat over the base, I have a lot of heterogeneity of the droplet sizes, making a salt-and-pepper type texture (not salt-and-pepper color like the Behr has been reported by MM to make.) This will probably go away with more coats, but my question is

How many turns out from seated are you guys putting the +/- control knob on the Wagner CS for each duster coat?

I do not have any experience with the wagner but typically if you can increase the amount of air pressure and decrease the amount of paint going into the gun you can remedy this. On a standard HPLV gun (compressor driven) there are adjustments for both. I fine tuned mine on a board before I started to dial it in.

An update to my progress:

I just completed my screen this weekend and it turned out great. I'll snap some shots once I get it all assembled as I'm still putting my theater back together recovering from the flood. Carpet will be in next Monday so I should then be able to provide the group with some pics.

Per my earlier post, I actually found the Ceramcoat at Jo-Ann fabric. Picked it up and went with it instead of the Plaid brand. I will say after looking at the two colors side by side there was little difference. I'm sure it would work just as well. At any rate, I sprayed 3 coats of thinned Kilz and then 6 duster coats of silver. It was a snap. I think the main reason why some individuals ended up with "stripes" is they were moving the gun too slow and too close to the screen. I kept a good 15" away from the surface and moved in smooth quick motions across and then back and forth on the board. It came out smooth as a baby's bottom. Upon finishing each duster coat I also held the gun about 24" off the surface and basically allowed the paint mixture to "rain down" on the surface. This is where you definitely want to ensure you have higher pressure and the paint droplets are very small and dust like. It worked great to really even out the surface. Hope this helps and I can't wait to test it out!!!

Again, my hats off to the pioneers of this process, looks like a winner!!!
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post #192 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrassat1.8t View Post

I do not have any experience with the wagner but typically if you can increase the amount of air pressure and decrease the amount of paint going into the gun you can remedy this. On a standard HPLV gun (compressor driven) there are adjustments for both. I fine tuned mine on a board before I started to dial it in.


Again, my hats off to the pioneers of this process, looks like a winner!!!

I have to agree. My screen is comming out great.

MM or anybody else; do you have experience with the Wagner CS. How many turns?

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post #193 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 01:39 PM
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I plan on re-doing my paint job since I ended up with stripes. MM was going to help me fix it (if I ever got some pics to him.... sorry), but I was thinking I may just repaint the whole thing from square one. I've got a wee bit of texture because I rolled two coats of primer before spraying, so I'll be sanding the whole thing and will spray the entire solution.

Do any of you 'success story' types have tips and hints for getting that magical 12" spray fan out of the Wagner and how to SEE where you're spraying to get the 50%+ overlap? These two issues led to my tiger screen.

Did anyone state the elapsed time on the viscosity cup for the final mix? Ours seemed to take forever, which may be half the problem.

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post #194 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jjcritch View Post

MM or anybody else; do you have experience with the Wagner CS. How many turns?

We just let 'er rip at full volume, though as you can see from my last post it was less than a success.

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post #195 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 01:48 PM
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I haven't actually sprayed, but i thought of a method to ensure 50% overlap. First, determine the vertical spray height of the stream at 12". With this number, you can tape markers for where your nozzle should be held after every row of spray. First row of spray should be aligned with the top of the substrate. Second row should be 1/2 of the height of the spray below the top of the substrate. Just make marks for every row. Does that make sense?
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post #196 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 02:01 PM
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Makes sense. But, the first row should overspray the top by 50% to ensure even coverage. That is a good suggestion for start and finish of a row... now cross your fingers that you don't deviate from the course in the middle of the screen

Maybe I could mount some lazers to the sprayer!

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post #197 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 03:10 PM
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Makes sense. But, the first row should overspray the top by 50% to ensure even coverage. That is a good suggestion for start and finish of a row... now cross your fingers that you don't deviate from the course in the middle of the screen

Maybe I could mount some lazers to the sprayer!

If you align the nozzle with the top of the sheet, you should get even overlap by moving the nozzle down to the next row by half the spray height.
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post #198 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthrassat1.8t View Post

At any rate, I sprayed 3 coats of thinned Kilz and then 6 duster coats of silver. It was a snap. I think the main reason why some individuals ended up with "stripes" is they were moving the gun too slow and too close to the screen. I kept a good 15" away from the surface and moved in smooth quick motions across and then back and forth on the board. It came out smooth as a baby's bottom. Upon finishing each duster coat I also held the gun about 24" off the surface and basically allowed the paint mixture to "rain down" on the surface. This is where you definitely want to ensure you have higher pressure and the paint droplets are very small and dust like. It worked great to really even out the surface.

And now...
Quote:


The Poster above's adaptation of technique was based on how he observed the character of the Paint as it is atomized and distributed. He opted to go with a slightly greater distance while maintaining a minimum of 50% overlap, and to "feather" a layer (...REALLY Dust it....) over the surface at the end of each go so as to add even more "evenness". All good as long as the surface does not get anything more than a light sheen. A "Slippery Wet" surface will either sag or run, or develop the dreaded "Orange Peel". Anyone / everyone should use a little subjective reasoning and experimentation when evaluating the performance of the Wagner's Mix/Gun relationship.

That means PRACTICE FIRST.......squirt last.

If the Paint is properly thinned, and you use full pressure / Trigger deployment (WCS), then all that remains to do is to increase / decrease your distance from the surface to achieve the desired 12" Tall vertical pattern. The example above was most likely closer to being 14" vertical, but at 50% overlap he was running 7" into the pre-existing paint lay down, so although that is the minimum amount of suggested overlap, it will do if your distance assures that you do not "stripe". You can always fill in a sparse area next to a "perfect area" with "sweeping feather strokes" but it's not nearly as easy to even out semi-glossy, heavily laden areas into "perfect areas. Once you go past "Flat" into Gloss" you gotta sand.........and S-I-L-V-E-R doesn't cotton up to surface irregularities of any type. Nope, Devon has it right....starting over and learning from one's mistakes is sometime the way to the highest level of satisfaction.


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post #199 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 03:55 PM
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More ghostly wisdom...
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Measuring your drop is easy. You look at your hand, and visually drop the width of your fist. This small adjustment is easily repeated each time, and will approximate the required and suggested 60% Overlap. If your to err, your doing so in the Overlap Department is the place you want to do it. Just balance speed, distance, to the overlap and you'll get excellent results.


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post #200 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 11:15 PM
 
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Hmmmm... someone is banned and yet still posts? I guess someone couldn't

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I'll be starting a dedicated DIY Theater Forum almost immediately that will pull in traffic from across the Globe, and every known Forum with such a section. I can do it, and gain instant response.

But wait he has a forum and there's a lot of spammers there... spammers from across the globe no less!

I bought the S-I-L-V-E-R stuff to include in my comparison. I notice the first post where one would normally keep info regarding their mix is devoid of the latest application technique. Can anyone clue me in? I believe it's two coats of Kilz2 (done already) and then 2 coats of the SM? Are they to be 'duster' coats? And then how many 5% SM 95% glaze duster coats? Thanks for the help!

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post #201 of 763 Old 09-17-2007, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmmmm... someone is banned and yet still posts? I guess someone couldn't



But wait he has a forum and there's a lot of spammers there... spammers from across the globe no less!

I bought the S-I-L-V-E-R stuff to include in my comparison. I notice the first post where one would normally keep info regarding their mix is devoid of the latest application technique. Can anyone clue me in? I believe it's two coats of Kilz2 (done already) and then 2 coats of the SM? Are they to be 'duster' coats? And then how many 5% SM 95% glaze duster coats? Thanks for the help!

mech

The current method is simplified. Usually three sprayed primer coats on a preferred substrate followed by six to seven duster (mist) coats of S-I-L-V-E-R topcoat. Good spraying.
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post #202 of 763 Old 09-18-2007, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

The current method is simplified. Usually three sprayed primer coats on a preferred substrate followed by six to seven duster (mist) coats of S-I-L-V-E-R topcoat. Good spraying.

When did we start spraying all the primer coats? I thought we were rolling at least two then maybe spraying the third....

Anyway, I am getting a little orange pealing with the more coats of SM/Faux glaze dusters. Not much, not enough that it is even noticeable untill your only a few inches away. But, has anyone tried sanding between not just the primer coats, but also the SM/Faux coats?

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post #203 of 763 Old 09-18-2007, 05:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA View Post

The current method is simplified. Usually three sprayed primer coats on a preferred substrate followed by six to seven duster (mist) coats of S-I-L-V-E-R topcoat. Good spraying.

Thanks CMRA! Let it dry in between duster coats right?

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post #204 of 763 Old 09-18-2007, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjcritch View Post

When did we start spraying all the primer coats? I thought we were rolling at least two then maybe spraying the third....

Anyway, I am getting a little orange pealing with the more coats of SM/Faux glaze dusters. Not much, not enough that it is even noticeable untill your only a few inches away. But, has anyone tried sanding between not just the primer coats, but also the SM/Faux coats?

Nooooooooooo! This has always been a spray solution. Some of us have rolled our primer just because we don't listen, but it is recommended NOT TO ROLL.

Do not sand your screen after any duster coats. You'll only get a patchy, messed up screen with white and gray blobs. If you gotta sand, you gotta start over. Of course, this is my opinion, but we tried to fix a section where a bug got stuck in the paint. Disaster followed.

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post #205 of 763 Old 09-18-2007, 01:14 PM
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I believe the older applications i've read on this mix involved rolling 2 coats of primer, then 6-7 sprayed duster coats. eventually, it evolved into 100% spray application.
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post #206 of 763 Old 09-18-2007, 08:11 PM
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If you make note of how "Tall" your patern is, and when dropping down, only go 1/3rd that distance, even with variations, after 4-5 coats a very even appearance will develop. Less overlapping results in "Banding", and you don't want that. I always say 60% overlap at minimum. But the smaller the overlap, the faster you must move, or the slightly further from the surface you must be to avoid depositing too much wet paint at once.




I give the Gun full output....always. If the paint is thinned correctly (...but not TOO thin...) and the speed of travel and distance is adjusted accordingly, using the Gun correctly means you get through each coat on a 96" x 54" size surface in under 1min 30sec.

Thanks ghost. I have actually put my first six coats of the SM/Faux on at 50% on the Wagner CS dial and it is comming out GREAT! (and that over three rolled and wet sanded primer coats) This is really a great process.

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post #207 of 763 Old 09-18-2007, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Thanks CMRA! Let it dry in between duster coats right?

mech

RIGHT !
Make that ALL coats. (primer too)

Yes, avoid rolling. It is a spray application.
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post #208 of 763 Old 09-19-2007, 08:52 AM
 
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CMRA,

Have you ever tried a gray base coat for ambient folks? I may try it with a neutral gray as I have a lot of paint left. Just need to pick up another 2X4' test panel... And don't worry I won't call it S-I-L-V-E-R!

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post #209 of 763 Old 09-19-2007, 09:19 AM
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Or do 1 or 2 additional "duster coats" of neutral grey OVER the silver. This would still leave some of the reflective properties of the silver with a bit darker sheen. I may play with this as well. Reason being, I have a totally light controled room, however, there are times during parties where the lights from the bar area will be on (directly behind the theater) and the light spills into the room. On my initial tests last night the screen perfomed BEAUTIFULLY when it was dark BUT it did have a slight glare (hotspot) where the light from the back room was reflecting in. Overall I think this process is hard to top but there might be some nice variations using the grey/silver combo. More later.
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post #210 of 763 Old 09-19-2007, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

CMRA,

Have you ever tried a gray base coat for ambient folks? I may try it with a neutral gray as I have a lot of paint left. Just need to pick up another 2X4' test panel... And don't worry I won't call it S-I-L-V-E-R!

mech

Knock yourself out. I duster coated my ME 'grey' screen awhile back expecting similar. I was anything but pleased with the results. YMMV.
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