HDTV Screen – High Quality and Very Low Cost - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1284 Old 03-09-2002, 08:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by johnjacob
Just wanted to know if anyone had a Barco 801 with the Parkland screen setup. Not sure what side of material to use.

THX

John,
I am running a BG-800. The older brother to your projector and I used the dull or non-label side. I feel it gives very pleasing results with no waves or hot spots.

Good Luck
Mike
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post #362 of 1284 Old 03-10-2002, 04:31 PM
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I am using the shiny side with a Ampro (7inch)
No hotspots and a little more gain than the matte side.
I do think I am the exception however. Most are using the
Matte side. I could not tell a dimes worth of difference between the
matte side and white blackout material. And the fabric is so much easier to use. Staple it on a simple frame and its done.. And it
comes 54wide to start with. No gluing, no trouble and its EVEN.
But if you want a little more gain.. go with the plastic.
wingryder
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post #363 of 1284 Old 03-11-2002, 08:12 PM
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I purchased a 4x8 sheet of parkland plastic a few weeks ago with the intent of making a free hanging parkland plastic screen. I put off actual construction because I could not find a lightweight, flat, non-warping sheet to glue the plastic to. Every backing weighed a ton or bowed considerably.

I then read about the Home Depot drop cloth screen post and I immediately went out to construct the perfect free-hanging screen.

To make a long story short, I was not satisfied with the drop cloth due to some permanent smudges right in the center of the cloth (after I had cut and stapled half of the screen to the frame).

So rather than start over again, I stapled the parkland plastic sheet to the frame and "stretched" it taught. The resulting screen is lightweight, perfectly flat and free of any warping.

The great thing is I did not have to use any glue. The whole project, including the first attempt with the drop cloth took less than an hour.

spkeasy
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post #364 of 1284 Old 03-12-2002, 01:08 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by duell
Swinfen,

The stuff's pretty durable. I would guess that if you're willing to pay for the shipping, they'd ship to anywhere. Hopefully you'll get that answer via email.

Short of a heavy object crushing the shipping box in half, I can't believe that it would be damaged by normal shipping.

Well, I ordered a 5 x 10 sheet. I received mine yesterday, but it was damaged along the bottom in two places. I'm on the West coast, so perhaps special packaging would be in order for overseas.
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post #365 of 1284 Old 03-12-2002, 07:34 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by wingryder
I am using the shiny side with a Ampro (7inch)
No hotspots and a little more gain than the matte side

I have placed pieces of both the matte and smooth
sides up against a 1.0 screen and compared the
images simultaneously. The smooth side may have
a tiny bit more gain, but I estimate the difference to
be less than .1. My estimate is that the smooth side
is pretty much exactly 1.0 and the matte side is between
0.95 and 0.98 . It was really hard to see a difference
on anything but a test pattern image. Comparisons
were done with a 1200 lumen projector.

Tom
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post #366 of 1284 Old 03-13-2002, 02:45 PM
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I'm happy to see that this thread has moved to this area... last night I JUST put a piece of Parkland Plastic against my Blackout material... I was reading that the smoother side was a higher gain with no hotspotting, and since I use an Electrohome ECP4501, I could use every bit of added light... so smooth side out I went.

Hotspotting he!!. It ain't good at all with my projector. I'm going to take the rough side out next, and see if it will take care of the hotspotting.

The blackout material has NO hotspotting at all, so if I go from NO hotspotting to bad hotspotting, I'd see a significant increase in the screens gain!

I'm hoping that the rough side of the Parkland will be in-between the blackout material and the smooth side of the Parkland. That would be ideal.

BTW - I'm VERY picky about video quality, so I suppose that when I say the hotspotting makes my screen unwatchable, maybe it's not unwatchable for someone else... I dunno. BTW - The hotspotting is most visible when looking at solid colors such as test patterns, or a solid PC desktop.

It's all about your perspective.

Oz
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post #367 of 1284 Old 03-13-2002, 04:24 PM
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Duell:
I'm using a ECP3000 with the matte (rough) side out, with no Hotspotting at all. Nice black levels, color seems really accurate too. I never did try the smooth side, so I don't know what the outcome of that would be.

Good luck.

Juno =0)

For I AM PERSUADED...Rom. 8:38-39
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post #368 of 1284 Old 03-13-2002, 05:06 PM
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What is everyone using to adhere the Parkland Plastics material to a surface? I tried attaching a piece to a sheet of styrofoam sheeting with liquid nails (in a caulking-gun tube) but after it dried it "puckered" where the liquid nails touched the plastic. The result was a useless wavy piece of plastic. I'm going to try again, but need suggestions on the glue...

Thanks,
Steve
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post #369 of 1284 Old 03-13-2002, 07:41 PM
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Steve,
I just bought my sheet of Parkland Plastic today, and glued it to a sheet of 5/8 OSB. I bought a gallon of that Liquid Nail glue that is recommended on the sticker (I forget the exact number right now) and applied it with a 5/16 notched trowel

Everything worked out great. I mounted it to the wall and trimmed it out with 1 x 4's (Painted black, but will cover them with blackout cloth). Now all I need is my projector, which is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow (Sanyo PLV-60)
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post #370 of 1284 Old 03-17-2002, 05:27 PM
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After a few days, I notice my screen is now starting to get bumps all through it. I'm thinking maybe I applied the FRP adhesive to heavy. I have a second sheet, and I think this time I will try to glue it to a different surface, maybe particle board will work better

Bill
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post #371 of 1284 Old 03-17-2002, 10:02 PM
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I'd use the adhesives that people use to apply laminates since this stuff is so thin that it acts like a laminate. Ask your local hardware store for the glue of the laminates and I'd bet it'll work great. I'd also use MDF for the smoooth surface as a backing for this material.

Seems like it'll be easier to paint a sheet of MDF or sheetrock

Huey ;-]
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post #372 of 1284 Old 03-18-2002, 03:36 AM
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Huey,
I thought about using contact cement, but for some reasom didn't. Now that you bring it up, I think I will try that this next time. I also may just try painting my wall first, and see how that turns out

Bill
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post #373 of 1284 Old 03-18-2002, 08:21 PM
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Are there any special qualities about the Parkland material that make it better than other products with a similar finish?

The guy that mentioned using Formica sounded like he was on to something.

1) It's cheap

2) You can have it custom cut to any size

3) You can get it in all kinds of different colors - hopefully being able to get close to the grayhawk color, and

4) It's tough, and its a laminant, so easy to get it to perfectly adhere to partical board or other backings.

What about it? Does anyone have any insight on why the Parkland would work better than formica?
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post #374 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 07:36 AM
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Sorry to bump into this thread like this, but has anyone tried the ScreenGo with this prodcut yet, and reported back? It looks like an ideal substrate for ScreenGoo apps. People with the Parklands Plastic sheets DO have, and HAVE ordered, and are using ScreeGoo, so, what's the prognosis, doctors?

Ken Hotte

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post #375 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 07:39 AM
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Parkland is much cheaper than formica. Relatively speaking, both are substantially cheaper than the crazy prices these screen guys charge
IMO.

Aceman
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post #376 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 07:54 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Tom Carey
The projector is a Piano. Ken knew this and gave me a grey formulation intended to have characteristics similar to the Firehawk. We'll see. The paint goes on this week. I probably won't have time to get the Piano properly set up until the end of the week.
Ken says that his goo take 30 days to cure. Of course I can't wait that long to write about it, but will follow up a month later if any important changes takes place.

Hello Tom!

The gain curve of the paint you where sent will have a similar characteristic to the Firehawk, and quite likely lower than it. It is not enacted in the same way as Firehawk, or Greyhawk.. just similar. Being totally different product, this is the truth of the matter. It can't be the same. I'm just clarifying (a ScreenGoo Pun) the matter as much as possible. Most of the dryiing should take place in the first two weeks,and really inthe first week it is thuroughly watchable. Heck, it's great on the first day. It's just that FULL drying takes a bit of time.

The grey characteristic you will get will be very similar in tonality to a greyhawk, but with a gain curve that is slightly hotter than the Greyhawk, I suspect. It's hard to say,as each application of the product will differ, very slightly. The manufacturing is being done by you, not in a factory. Nevertheless, the gain curve from one home application of a rolled ScreenGoo screen, to the next should differ very little. Reflectivity curves (mirror characteristic) are INDEPENDENT of the greying, or darkness of the screen. The gain curve is a combination of the grey level (absorption characteristic. Any color absorbs light) and the reflectivity curve. So, a white CRT version of the ScreenGoo paint would have a gain of about 1.6.

The same version as a GREY, which is what you have, will have a gain in the 1.0 to possibly the 1.15 range..strictly due to the losses associated with greying something. The losses occur with ANY Grey system of any kind. The trick being, is the image punch still there? The proper grey design will keep as much punch and contrast fidelity as possible.

Ken Hotte

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post #377 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 08:06 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Aceman
Parkland is much cheaper than formica. Relatively speaking, both are substantially cheaper than the crazy prices these screen guys charge
IMO.

Aceman

50% or more of the people who try making their own screen..eventually end up buying, or making a REAL one. once they get used to seening a 'big picture' and the facination with such wears off.... they finally reach the understanding that the image they get with the homebrew stuff, is.. SUBSTANDARD..and is limiting the fidelity of their HT system. It all depends on the PJ too. These modern Digital PJ's are so grossly bad in fidelity compared to CRT units, it's really hard to realize that the screen is substandard, because the viewing device, the PJ, is so poor in showing the advantages of better screens.

Sorry, but that's the real 'skinny' (three-four years, since the introduction of cheaper digital PJ's) on this recent facination with cheap screens.

You may not want to hear it, but... it IS the truth.

I'm about to change this digital PJ thing, and turn it on it's ear. Let's get back to REAL fidelity.

For example: I re-built a digital PJ for a friend who owns both the ISCOII and PANAMORPH anamorphic lenses. Once his image fidelity coming out of the digital PJ was so freakin' high... that it practically scared him.. he realized that the two anamorphic enses where actually ruining the image fidelity. The PJ was exceeding the quality of those two lenses, putting their benifits be in doubt. 3-d punch was being ruind by the addition of the lenses. he now prefers the image without them in front of the PJ. This is a totally differnt thing that no-one has seen before. This changes everything.

When you finally get your hands on better quality PJ's.. cheap screens will be seen for what they really are. Cheap screens.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
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post #378 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 08:15 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by KBK
Sorry to bump into this thread like this, but has anyone tried the ScreenGo with this prodcut yet, and reported back? It looks like an ideal substrate for ScreenGoo apps. People with the Parklands Plastic sheets DO have, and HAVE ordered, and are using ScreeGoo, so, what's the prognosis, doctors?


Ken,
I have wanted very much to try it, just finding the time to do so has been difficult. I have been working on the Hipix software project and it may begin to slow down because we released the beta last night or it could be worse if there is a ton of bugs. I might get some time to change projector and build a new, larger screen with the Parkland material. I will be projecting with a NEC XG135LC what gain would you recommend for CRT ScreenGoo? I am going to shoot for 100 wide 16:9 screen and I have total light control.

Mike
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post #379 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 08:15 AM
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Easy does it Ken,

Not looking to start a flame war here - I did end the
post with

IMO = in MY opinion

From what I've seen with my PJ, side by side comparisons of
screen materials vs. my wall & formica did not substantiate me paying
appx $ 1K for a screen as I couldn't see that BIG a difference. Hopefully your new product will.

Until then, cheaper is better in my book!

Aceman
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post #380 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 08:33 AM
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I wasn't picking a particular person, per se. No such desire to pick on anyone. If it seemed this way, I heartily apologize. No such intent. It is just That this is a regular occurance. It seems everyone has to go through this leaning curve. For real screen companies, they just have to look at the huge thread here, in the right light. Eventually, almost everyone in this thread will be one of their customers. It's like peeking ahead, at future business and customers.

But as with most semi-out-of-control things.. there certianly is a 'lemming' type edge to things, going on here. The forum tends to inspire such behavior.

Ken Hotte

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post #381 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 10:04 AM
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I have applied Ken's goo to Parkland plastic. I would never have heard of either had it not been for AVS, so I owe a report. The report is preliminary, however, because I have not had the time to properly calibrate the PJ. I had problems using the CE DVD, and have ordered AVIA. To put this matter in perspective, I have only had the time to watch one movie since the installation was completed. My time for calibration is therefore even more limited.

Here is what I know.

First, the setup involves a piece of plastic 49" x 87 1/2 "; a Plus Piano, Ken's digital goo, and a Sony NS700P DVD player.

The goo applies to the plastic very well. I had my contractors spray it on, not roll it. The finished product looks very even and very professional. I can see no evidence of hot spotting. My only regret is not having applied the plastic to a more substantial backing. I used thin MDF (1/4"), which introduced a very slight waviness to the finished screen. I don't think it affects the image, but when you look at the screen from the side (as you do when you enter the room, because of my layout), you can see that it is not perfectly flat. I would consider applying it to a sheet of glass to obtain perfect flatness. Next best bet: apply it right to the wallboard.


I used a DYI technique learned here to attach the Piano to the ceiling without a mount. I am thrilled with the result. The 16:9 image hits the screen perfectly. The NTSC 4:3 image fills the height exactly, leaving unilliuminated bars left and right. I will make masks someday to fill those bars, but right now they do not bother me.

One fortunate move: I had a 4" wide wood border attached to the wall surrounding the screen, and painted it black. The Piano shoots some light above and below the 16:9 screen. Nearly all of it is absorbed by the border.

The walls in the room are light tan, except for the wall with the screen, which is a darker brown. The ceiling is white. The room has a green rug and a green sectional sofa. I know, I know, but the room has multiple purposes. It is in the basement, so control over sunlight is total. There are several recessed lights in the ceiling.

I initially used Piano settings previously posted by Bublichki. I realize that I am pushing the Piano a little beyond its limits by using a screen that is as large as mine. Plus wants up to use a 1.3 gain screen, and would rather have us limit screen size to 80". Mine is 100", and the gain on my screen is, if Ken's recent posting on this thread is correct, somewhere in the 1 - 1.15 range. Maybe higher because I had the goo sprayed?

My initial reaction to the image was sheer joy. After I recovered from the shock of actually having a PJ and an HT for the first time, I got a bit more critical. I started to notice that the complexions of some actors seemed gray -- like they were ill. Tropical flowers seemed dingy. Then I set up a piece of unpainted Parkalnd plastic covering about 1/3 of the screen, and everything changed. The white plastic showed brighter flowers and better complexions. The dark portions of the picture were, however, relatively washed out. The unpainted screen's image lacked some body that the painted portion had, but the painted portion lacked some vivid coloration.

In this regard, I followed with great interest the thread started by Icon Master at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/membe...o&userid=25463 . His observations about the white screen next to the grey one matched my experience. The many thoughtful responses, including the especially creative one by Joe12South on 3-15, were very interesting.

Holding a white screen next to a grey one is not a fair test, for several reasons. One of which is that the eye works on the basis of relative brightness, and relative coloration. When I don't hold the white plastic next to the grey screen, I am much more satisfied with the grey screen. Portions of the image that are supposed to be brilliant look so again.

The discussion on that thread confirmed my initial belief that at least part of the problem stems from having all of my PJ and DVD settings match those of another AVS'r who is projecting his Piano onto a white wall. So I ordered AVIA, which has not yet arrived, and did a little home cooking with the settings. I found it easier to tweak the DVD player's settings than the Piano's, although I will get around to that. But I found that by greatly increasing a setting on the DVD player called "Picture" (what the heck is that?), many of the initial problems were greatly ameliorated. The tropical flowers got more brilliant. The complexions no longer looked like the actors were ill; and the extra "body" of the grey screen remained.

One surprise: I can turn the lights on in the room (unscrewing the only bulb that washes directly onto the screen) and still have a very enjoyable image. I don't mean that I turn the lights on all the way. They are on a dimmer, and I can turn the dimmer up half-way and still get a good picture. This is a very pleasant surprise, because it means that for casual viewing of a baseball or football game, people don't have to give up the sociability of being able to see each other. I am guessing that the grey screen significantly improves the performance under these lighting conditions.

I still need to adjust the Piano further, and will continue to do so. I suspect that, by pushing the limits of the screen size beyond where the Piano is supposed to go, I have introduced compromises that will not go away entirely.

At this point, I would say to you Parland enthusiasts, that Ken's goo is likely to improve your image noticeably if you have the lumens to deal with the grey color. I would not say that it is an improvement that is consistent with the extreme frugality of the Parkland plastic, since the goo costs several times what the plastic costs. I cannot imagine, however, that in the context of AVS, where people are spending thousands on their setups and lots of time thinking of the latest and greatest tweaks, that another $100 or so is a bad buy for an improved image.

To complete the story of my system, I used a Denon 2802 receiver and (horrors!) six audiosource in-wall speakers purchased on eBay, along with a Sony 12" subwoofer. (Frankly, I care much more about the picture than about the sound). This kept my all-in budget for the HT to $5k, including the cost of the goo, etc. Like many of you, I am both thrilled with what I have, and looking forward to improving it. But I will sit tight until HD-DVDs are readily available, then go for another round of blood-letting.

Any thoughts from Ken would be very wlecome.
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post #382 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 10:29 AM
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Good post Tom! I'm looking forward to your post-calibration impressions. I have a sheet of parkland in the backroom that is just screaming for some goo
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post #383 of 1284 Old 03-20-2002, 10:56 AM
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Remember, the gain creeps up as the mix cures. The water comes out, and the translucency of the topcoat increases, and the material flattens, and the particles begin to shine through. The gain you have today.. will be lower than the gain you have two weeks from now.

Anyway, Tom, its actually good to hear from a Screen Goo user. they seem to be a frightfully quiet bunch. Thanks for you effort and observations!

Ken Hotte

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post #384 of 1284 Old 03-21-2002, 06:08 AM
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For those of you who built the screen to be hung from the ceiling, can you post details on how you did it? If you have pictures of the process that would be great too.

Mine will have to be hung in front of the TV and for that reason it will have to be lightweight. Plus I have a drop down ceiling so I don't know if that's going to complicate matters.

I read the whole thread and most of you say that in order to flatten the material, it should be glued to some type of board. But that sounds like it would get a bit heavy.

I can't put mine against the wall. I need to hang it about two feet in front of the front wall. Any suggestions?

Andres
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post #385 of 1284 Old 03-21-2002, 09:51 AM
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Andres M,

I originally built a frame with black-out fabric stretched over it. I did not like the fabric so I placed a sheet of parkland plastic on the frame over the cloth.

I then stapled the plastic to the front of the frame starting at one corner and making sure the plastic did not buckle between staples. I used maple for the frame supports because it is strong, straight and generally will not warp easily. I did not use any glue on the back of the plastic. The fabric from the first screen is underneath the plastic and provides very nice support.

I am happy with the results which is a perfectly flat, lightweight screen. I am also happy that I did not have to use any glue. I just hang it on the wall like a painting.

-spkeasy
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post #386 of 1284 Old 03-21-2002, 11:16 AM
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spkeasy,
I assume any type of fabric can be used right?
How light is the screen?

Andres
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post #387 of 1284 Old 03-21-2002, 11:26 AM
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Andres,

I would think that any type of fabric would work so long as it is not elastic. A strong muslin would be my recommendation. My fabric was taught and somewhat rigid after I stretched it on the frame.

I have an 80x45 visable screen with a one inch black border to cover the staples. In all, I would estimate that the screen weighs about 25 pounds. The heaviest component is the parkland plastic itself.

-spkeasy
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post #388 of 1284 Old 03-21-2002, 11:37 AM
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May I ask what you used for the black border?

Your screen is 80x45. Do you view 4:3 material on it? How far from the screen do you sit? What's the throw distance from the projector to the screen?

Andres
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post #389 of 1284 Old 03-21-2002, 01:08 PM
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Over the years I've used a variety of DIY and commercial screens in a variety of applications (home and business.) I've projected onto a plaster wall (bumps and cracks galore) and a multi-thousand dollar electric masking behemouth.

My unbiased (as much as it can be) opinion is that expensive screens do not offer significant image improvement over a *properly* executed DIY solution. (In the interest of disclosure, I'll say that I'm currently using a Da-Lite CinemaVision, what I would consider a middle-of-the-road product.)

What you are mainly paying for is convenience and (hopefully) quality of constrution. Some of the screen makers claims border on "Monster Cable" silly, IMHO. Now, I've made some pretty bad DIY screens ... the worst offender being a beige wall ... but I've also made a very good one. (If only this forum would have been around 7 years ago.)

I'm currently using a commercial screen just because it has a vey attractive frame and with two kids I don't have the time to build its equal ... I didn't *graduate* to a commercial screen, It was a matter of convenience.

Don't let anyone look down on your DIY!
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post #390 of 1284 Old 03-21-2002, 02:04 PM
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Andres,

The edge on the screen is 1 1/8" wooden corner "|_" shaped molding from home depot, painted flat black and screwed onto the edge of the frame. The screen is mounted on two wood beams at the end of the room about 2 feet off the floor.

I have a Barco 808 Graphics (purchased from Chuckof on the forum, which I am very happy with so far. I'll post more about the projector in the CRT section once I am done tweaking the image).

The Barco is floor mounted due to a very low ceiling. I too have a drop ceiling that makes retro-fitting the ht complicated. The pj is approximately 113 inches from the screen which is based on the Barco lens program.
I sit on either side and behind the pj and the image size seems perfect. The gain on the parkland plastic is pretty good for the Barco.

I use a DVDO v2 which allows me to sqeeze 4:3 images onto the 16:9 screen with gray bars on the sides. The 4:3 image turns out to be much small on the screen but most movies I watch are 16:9 formatted. The gray bars are not too distracting on the parkland plastic screen. I may consider some black masking in the future to cover the gray areas.

Has anyone had focusing problems using the textured side of the parkland plastic? I have a crisp image, but I am wondering if it would be even more crisp with another material or the matte side of the parkland sheet.

-spkeasy
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