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post #1 of 1231 Old 02-15-2008, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Black Widow PFG

What is Black Widow 'PFG'? It is a revolutionary way of making a screen the 'DIY' way.

First a very brief history of DIY painted screens and some of the more popular methods and mindsets:
For years the debate was White vs Gray. White is easy and the most forgiving. Of course the better balanced a white screen is the more accurate it will be, but unlike a gray screen White is more forgiving and can be off more and not be as noticeable as a gray screen that isn't a well balanced color. Still even with a white screen, the closer to D65 it is the more accurate it will be.

The same goes with gray screens, the closer they are to neutral the better and more accurate they are.
But what exactly constitutes a 'neutral'?

Good Question. There are many parameters but the main ones are the color balance (L*ab and xyY values), spectral curve, and color temperature.

For years many have tried to make the 'perfect' DIY screen. One that would perform with ambient lighting but also perform equally as well in a dark and dedicated environment.

One of the biggest problems and debates has been what exactly is gray? This has literally been debated for years and rather than explain it all over again the best thing is to refer to the neutral gray thread.

As good as a simple neutral gray is, there has always been a desire to improve upon things. The most popular way up until now has been by the use of mica (pearlescent) and poly coatings. The problem is mica by nature causes a color shift.

So how can we improve on a well balanced neutral gray without introducing color shifting that mica's and interference pigments are known to cause? By using non-interference pigments instead...

PFG stands for 'Pigment Free Gray'. Granted anything added to a white based paint to change the color is technically a pigment, this is a gray that is not created by use of the standard pigments used in paint shops or by other DIY methods. Hence the original name 'PFG', or Pigment Free Gray.

It was found that by adding aluminum based paint (which is a water based paint comprised primarily of aluminum and no other colorants) a gray was created. Aluminum is a very bright and universal element. It has been used over the years as a 'silver' substitute, and has even been used for making mirrors. Needless to say it is very bright and reflective.

That and the fact that it is a non-interference substance it was a very interesting element. The results were astounding.

First let's look at one of the most neutral Off The Self neutral grays made the conventional way with various colorant pigments.



Winter Mist

This is about as neutral as it gets with pigment based colorants. Look at the values highlighted in green. The color balance, temperature, and spectral curve all are well within our desired specifications.

Now let's look at what happens to that same ideal neutral when an interference material such as mica is added.



Winter Mist with Pearl Topcoat

Quite a change from the neutral balance seen before, and this was with just one coating.

Next up is a couple of the most well known and popular DIY advanced screen methods.



Silver Fire



S-I-L-V-E-R

Again a major change from our well balanced neutral reference.


Next is a 5:1 ratio mix using True Value's Winter Mist, the same as the very first data graphic shown...



You can find the curve for Black Widow Auto Air Aluminum fine here.


So what exactly is Black Widow? It is a gray made using Henry Aluminum roof paint added in the proper ratio to a common base paint. You can't just use anything, it has to be a water based aluminum paint so we went with Henry 558. The original material was a plain water based aluminum paint, but unfortunately it was discontinued.

What are the benefits? Well as the Spider says-
  • Better Blacks
  • Bolder Colors
  • Whiter Whites
  • Excellent performance with both ambient light and lights out dedicated setups
  • A brighter and more vibrant image without the color shifting problems caused by iridescence.
  • Sharper image quality and shadow detail

[center]That's some pretty bold claims... seeing is believing though.

The center of the screen are the two original PFG test panels in a 3:1 and 4:1 ratio. To the left is a known performer, Sherwin Williams Gray Screen, and to the right is a generic general run of the mill N8.5 shade of gray.

SW Gray Screen was one of the Kings of Off The Shelf (OTS) grays that provided deep blacks, excellent color reproduction and very white whites. It's no contest between the two.

So PFG wins with blacks but what about color? Another good question...
Color reproduction is just as accurate but has a more vivid look to them. Here we can see that there is no discernible difference in color reproduction between PFG and a known performer. What the camera can't show is the depth and detail is much greater in the PFG screen.

[center]The secret is the aluminum, but the key is not only the lack of color shifting that iridescence cause, but how uniform the aluminum is.
[
To the left is a PFG sample, to the right is a mica based application. The aluminum has a much denser and more uniform coverage as compared to the larger mica flakes. It's also very easy to see reds, blues, yellows, orange and other colors throughout the mica. That is a perfect example of uniformity and lack of color shifting.

What is really amazing is this is a darker screen but doesn't look dull or muddy like most dark grays look. The aluminum is the performance difference.
Lights out...

Lights on...

It was these tests that led to the current application that we are now ready to present... Black Widow PFG!

The next logical question is how do you make it and how do you apply it.

Making it is very simple. For a 4:1 ratio that's mixed with Luminous White take 8 ounces of Henry 558 and add it to a quart of Sherwin Williams Luminous White, stir and apply. That will make 40 ounces of Black Widow PFG LW4:1. For the 5:1 ratio we used Winter Mist for the base. Add 4 ounces of Henry 558 to 20 ounces of Winter Mist. That's less than a quart but enough to paint the average size screen. The reason I went less was because for a 5:1 made using 8 ounces of HE558 you'd need more than a quart of paint (40 ounces to be exact) and a quart is only 32 ounces... make sense?

For a little more though you can get a full gallon of Winter Mist, so making the 5:1 ratio would be like this, add 8 ounces of HE558 to 40 ounces of Winter Mist... guaranteed to be more than enough to paint just about any size screen.

Note: There is no different in the above two Winter Mist HE558 5:1 methods, the ratio is still the same so performance is the same... You only have 32 ounces in a quart to work with and we're trying to keep this as easy as possible. You 'could' use the full 32 ounces and add 6.4 ounces of HE558, but I personally don't have a 6.4 ounce measuring cup and I really doubt most people do either.

The same ratios apply to Auto Air Aluminum.

Right now Sherwin Williams Luminous White and True Value Winter Mist are the only recommended base paints for HE558. We have tested a wide variety of paints to use as a base and none of them come close to meeting our specs as these two do. When we identify more they will be listed but that will not be a 'change' to the way to make Black Widow, just open up more options for people to use to get the same performance but with other paint brands.

The recommended base for Auto Air Aluminum Fine is either Bermuda Beige (427-2) or Bare Beige (327-2). Those are PPG colors. They can be color matched at Lowe's, Ace Hardware (Benjamin Moore paint) or Home Depot.

How is Black Widow PFG applied? It's just like painting a wall. No special rollers or rolling techniques are needed. Just a good quality low nap roller. Prime the surface with a good primer, my primer of choice is Kilz2, but any good quality white primer will work. Mix up your Black Widow, and roll it on... it really is that easy. Stay away from foam rollers though. They sometimes cause bubbles to form and when the bubbles pop a bright spot is formed. If you see a bubble, don't panic, just roll it out and move on. When finished applying, go back over the area rolling from the top to the bottom, overlapping a couple inches. This helps the aluminum flakes lay flat and eliminates roller marks. If you have a large screen you may want a helper following behind you doing this. It helps greatly to have a work light on a tripod shining at the screen off to the side 30 or so degrees.

It is highly recommended to strain the HE558 before mixing. Use an ordinary straining bag that can be found at any paint store. I like the bags over the cones, they are easier to use and less mess. The Auto Air needs no straining.

Coming up next are some actual Black Widow shots and even a first hand account of making a full size screen and how it performs.

We are also working on making this even easier, but the concept and performance won't be changed at all. The only down side is HE558 may not be in your local store but ask the stores that carry Henry products, ACE said they could get it and other stores may be willing to order it as well.

Where to purchase

HE558

The place where muzz and I purchased our gallons was here.

Ace Hardware is supposed to be able to order it as well.

Auto Air Aluminum Fine

Can be purchased at Dick Blick online or locally. Call around.

The mixes (subject to additions as they come along):

Black Widow with HE558

Winter Mist - 5:1 meaning 5 parts True Value Winter Mist to one part HE558. Read the can for coverage and calculate then how much you'll need for your screen.

RGB 188 190 188
L*ab 76.8 -0.96 1.00
xyY 0.313 0.332 51.2
color temp 6491

Luminous White - 5:1 and 6:1 These don't come in true neutral but they are close. Read the can for coverage and calculate then how much you'll need for your screen.

5:1

197 199 195
80.0 -1.25 1.89
0.315 0.334 56.7
6398

6:1

213 215 214
85.9 -1.21 0.31
0.312 0.331 67.8
6537

Black Widow the Auto Air Aluminum Fine

The base color is Bermuda Beige. This is a Pittsburgh Paint and Glass tint. Lowe's, Ace, and Home Depot all are reported to be able to have this tint in their computers. The number for this color is 427-2. As for which base to put it in, many things have been tried and reported to work great. As long as it's the same Bermuda Beige it will work. Ask them what options you have for a base. The latest fad here is apparently exterior latex. And I think it holds merit as if it has to last on the exterior of a house, it should last for a screen. My panels were done in Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Flat Enamel. I bought the enamel as I figured some folks would want a bit more durability. All of the actual number crunching was done using Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Ultra White. Because that's what I had. I've seen no difference, number-wise between the two different paints.



4:1 BB:AAA Four parts Bermuda Beige to one part Auto Air Aluminum (8oz of AAA to a quart of BB) Read the can for coverage and calculate then how much you'll need for your screen.

Measured right here, right now, off of my panel.

186 186 186
75.5 -0.05 -0.08
0.312 0.329 49.1
6503.0

Application

Paint it like you'd paint your wall, but avoid roller marks and back roll as you go (HE558 is a leafing aluminum and requires this).

I painted all of my panels with a 6 inch roller and had no trouble with roller marks (outside of early tests with a 3:1 HE558 mix). Today I painted another Black Widow (WM - HE558) panel using a 9 inch Purdy 1/4" nap roller. muzz said something once about roller marks and I think it's a great idea - scrape the paint off the edges of the roller. I used a rag and wiped the excess off. It works!

It will be to your benefit to have a light shining on the screen off to the side so that you can see any roller marks. When I rolled poly on my Fashion Grey Screen I used a halogen tripod light.

If you're planning on painting a large screen, have a helper do the back rolling.

Spraying is not an option for HE558 as it is a leafing aluminum and requires back rolling.

Spraying is more than likely an option for the Auto Air as I haven't seen it labeled as a leafing aluminum.

Spraying will be researched further when it warms up and I'm able to do it.

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post #2 of 1231 Old 02-15-2008, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Again bear with me as the format's a bit off some images have to be re-done due to water marks. As I am cut and pasting from the Shack.

The current mix compilation

Henry HE558 and either True Value Winter Mist

For Henry 558 the only base paint that passed the testing and is recommended is True Value Winter Mist. Note on Winter Mist, get Lowes to use their Matchrite software to look it up and have them make it. They have a computerized system that more accurately matches the intended color value from the company fandeck. True Value often uses older mechanical dispensers and they don't typically have a dedicated paint staff, rather employees quickly trained and work various departments throughout the store. You will get a better quality paint with Valspar and a more accurate color match.

Sherwin Williams Luminous White has been used in the past as a close neutral but in light of current compilations, why settle for something that's further away from the target.

Black Widow PFG made with Henry 558 5:1

HE558/Winter Mist 5:1- Use one part Henry 558 to five parts Winter Mist

Black Widow PFG made with Auto Air Aluminum 4:1

Use one part Createx Auto Air Aluminum Fine to four parts of either Bermuda Beige or Bare Beige

That would be 8oz of Auto Air Aluminum Fine to one quart of paint. Make sure you pick up a bucket or have one handy to mix this in!

Bermuda and Bare Beige are colors in the PPG line of paints and can be matched at any Lowe's, Ace Hardware (Benjamin Moore paint) or Home Depot store. Their computer matching software at my particular Lowe's store had only one entry for either name and it was the correct entry.

____________________________________________________________ __________
It seems there are some questions/concerns/comments about the availability of the aluminum portion of Black Widow. We want to stress you can't grab anything, we spent time to test and check color balance before presenting BW.

Henry 555 is solvent based, not water based. It is not recommended to use it with water based latex paints.

Behr Silver Metallic is definitely not the same thing. It is mica based and defeats the whole purpose of using a non-interference such as aluminum. It may look good to some people, but aluminum performs better than the pearls and mica and looks nicer. As good as the pearls look, this really is better.

As I mentioned, we are currently testing some other sources for aluminum, but they will not be a replacement, rather a suppliment and people can then go with what is easiest to obtain. The color balance (if used with the recommended base paints) will be the same and the performance will be the same. We are just looking for ways to make this easier and more attainable.

And as always, we are still working on other solutions!
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post #3 of 1231 Old 02-15-2008, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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From Shackster and AVS member muzz

Quote:


Well......

I have this screen in action, have been for that last few days.

I think it's fabulous myself.

I could NOT find the Henry 558 locally, even though I went to their website and found local distributors, maybe you guys will have better luck, but I ordered it online after MANY hours of frustration....

It was pathetic.....


I have personally taken more pics than I care to mention, getting a really good screen shot(REAL, LIKE WHAT YOU REALLY SEE), is a nightmare in itself, ESPECIALLY on LIGHT backgrounds.....
Reason?

White Balance

White balance can take up a whole LARGE thread in itself, and be MANY pages in itself..

Alot of views will be LESS affected by this than others, but some shots are SEVERELY affected,I'm trying, and I have 2 cameras here......
Facts are this,
LARGE white areas look a bit bluish, I MUST get a Whibal, and even then it'll change per shot.
Like I said, WB is a big deal in regards to NON DOCTORED SHOTS.
ALL of the shots you see, are NOT doctored AT ALL, not touch-ups, etc.... is what it is (hopefuly!!).

There IS software available to correct WB on shots.... I think thats a VERY debateable subject,, but I know that it's WIDELY accepted for corporate,and sometimes HT shots..
I have NOT retouched any of my pics, although I could for the WB issue....
I just feel it's a bit weak, and REFUSE to do that. hence the problems I have stated..

Whatever.....

My Projector is a Panasonic AX100U, with over 1900 hours on it, so I USUALLY use he "NORMAL" setting, I think it's the 3rd from brightest, the pics shown are using that setting.

I don't lie, what you see is a FAIR, but NOT perfect rendition of what I see here, any questions LMK.

Some pics....

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/muzz1/

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I'd like to start out this post by saying that I've looked at and reviewed a lot of panels and paint mixes since starting over at the Shack, and this one is the best diy screen paint for ambient light viewing that I know of! There is another that I know of but benven hasn't released his formula yet for comparisons. Actually Ben has released it at the Shack now!

A shot of all the panels:




And that's not even everything!!

Shopping

What you're looking for is this:



And this is what it looks like when opened:



Application Notes

Some application notes that I'd like to add are that spraying will be tested when the weather warms here and I can do it in my garage. I may get around to testing it with a Preval sprayer sooner though.

As for the nap of the roller I'd keep it 1/4" or less. I used foam rollers on my original test panels and had bubbles form to which Bill has alluded to the problems this can create. So stick with the 1/4" or less nap roller. I haven't had any trouble with panels created with these. Nor has our other beta tester, muzz, who has already replaced his screen with Black Widow! ***Foam rollers were not tested with the Auto Air Black Widow - they may or may not work with that rendition.***

Thickness of the mix should be soupy, for lack of a better term. I use a plastic fork and stir that around some. If the paint doesn't roll off between the tines, it's too thick!

Watch for roller marks! Make sure you go over the screen when your done once more with the roller. Roll from top to bottom overlapping an inch or two each time. This helps to lay the aluminum flakes properly. Do not apply pressure when doing this! It helps to have a halogen work light, or some other bright light, at a 30 degree angle from the screen shining onto it. This also helps to find any errors in your rolling.

Another item I'd like to caution folks about is handling the screen after it has dried. ***This is only with the Henry HE558 screens!*** Care should be taken as we have seen some smudging. At this time it appears to be worse on screens that are sprayed. I had to create quite a bit of friction with my finger to create a smudge on my rolled screens. We're currently investigating a good topcoat that won't yellow over time and won't decrease the performance of the screen. I'm hoping to continue work on it this week. As of right now the Behr 780 matte polyurethane seems to work fine. However it has been known to yellow over time. I'm currently investigating proportions of Valspar Clear Coat Protectors in the flat and satin finishes to figure out which will work best. They introduce virtually no color shifting. ***Topcoats have been abandoned as they neutralize the effects of the aluminum - which is the reason for this screen!***

Musings

So I'm sure folks will wonder why 4:1 and 5:1? Why not 3:1? Well the 3:1's produced a very grainy picture and what appeared to be roller marks on the panel. While I'm not a painter by trade, I can assure you there aren't any roller marks. I believe it's just from higher concentration of aluminum. I've done some work on these and have gotten them straightened out. When it's finalized I'll add it to the top post and to the thread. I've abandoned this for the time being as well but may try it out with the Auto Air when I get more.



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post #5 of 1231 Old 02-15-2008, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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more from muzz..

Quote:


I think this screen does a good job with ambient lighting, here are a couple of shots..

Without light:
http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=IMG_1516.jpg


With 75 watt table lamp to the left of the camera- easy reading light:

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=IMG_1517.jpg

This pic isn't too bad for a 1900 hr bulb:



This screen smokes my old Pebble Beach/2 x PTC

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u...t=IMG_1331.jpg :T

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And a few blurbs on what's going on now. We've (wbassett, cynical2, and myself - with the help of others benven, SmokeyJoe, harpmaker and more) created a simpler solution using Createx Auto Air Aluminum. You can find that at Dick Blick's. It's not, however, 100% done. But should be soon. We've already done HE558/poly, AAA/poly, and straight aluminum with poly and it doesn't work. At least not with anything we (wbassett, cynical2 and myself) have tried. We have also tested numerous existing 'mixes' as well and maybe we'll share some of our insight into those as well.

The whole key to all of this though is neutral. Search this forum for a thread title with it started by wbassett and you can learn a bit about it there. But the gist of it is this. A neutral screen will reflect the colors being projected onto it equally. No shifts, no pushes... equally. If you want more information you can research color science. All of our research and development has revolved around developing a D65 neutral screen. Why D65? Because it is the standard in the video industry. Go ask someone in the calibration forum what they calibrate to and their answer will be "D65".

We have it it's done and the Black Widow with Auto Air won't be far behind. If you're thinking of making this screen, I'd say it's safe to say you can order your Auto Air Aluminum fine now. Or if you'd prefer the HE558 route which is a proven mix you can order that up and mix it now.

As for the bases used, they work. If you'd like to try something different feel free, but what we're posting is tested to be neutral. How? With an i1pro spectrophotometer.

I will go back and sort through some of the investigations and post anything pertinent here. It was a very painstaking process and it took a long time to get to where we're at. I'd like to say I see the light at the end of the tunnel but I'm already starting work on the 'white killer project'.
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The spectral response curve for the Auto Air Aluminum Black Widow:



The nice thing about this mix is I've come up with a way to possibly bring this up to a N9!

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And the actual data numbers for those interested:

184 185 185
0.311 0.329 48.3
75.0 -0.40 -0.31

That was last night after about ten hours drying/curing time. Next I'll get a color match of the base at Lowe's and mix that up, get readings and if it turns out good paint a panel.

Again these are spectrophotometer readings of a potential screen paint that are coming in neutral. We (wbassett, cynical2, and myself) put a lot of effort into making sure everything turns out within our guidelines! The guidelines are pretty straightforward. It's got to be simple to mix and apply. And it has to be neutral.

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post #9 of 1231 Old 02-16-2008, 04:37 PM
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Found it! Original Canadian Gray using AAA.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...=canadian+gray

Meow.
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post #10 of 1231 Old 02-16-2008, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It's too bad you didn't have a spectro back then Ben! And thanks again for all the help! Without you, SmokeyJoe, etc., we wouldn't be where we're at today!

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"LARGE white areas look a bit bluish"
is this true?

and how does the Black Widow screens compare to the Black Flame screens?
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Would you tell us a little more on the smudging? I have kids and they will touch...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post

Would you tell us a little more on the smudging? I have kids and they will touch...

Smudging is mostly a problem for the sprayed screens and the Henry 558 mixes, it has something to do with the way the paint goes on with this method. Mech's rolled screens would also smudge, but it took a deliberate effort to do so as I recall.

For those needing surface protection, mech did some testing of various clear topcoats. I believe the most promising was a combination of Valspar clear protector flat and satin. More info here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...html#post80643

Those wanting a Black Widow screen and needing a more durable surface without topcoating might opt for the Auto-Air Aluminum mixes. Mech should have formulas out this week.
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I wanted to throw in some major kudos to the guys over at the shack for putting this truly impressive mix together. This has beat any expectations I had. The picture is stunning. I'm using an Infocus SP-7210 for a source as well. Here are some pics from this morning with some ambient light in the room. These were taken with my tripod. I had the F-Stop around 22 with the shutter staying open for 10 secs. I still need to tweak the camera settings a little more. The ISO may have been set too high. Can't wait to take some nice pics in the dark tonight.















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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

"LARGE white areas look a bit bluish"
is this true?

and how does the Black Widow screens compare to the Black Flame screens?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte View Post

Would you tell us a little more on the smudging? I have kids and they will touch...

I wonder where all this has come from...

"Bluish"? I don't think this warrants a response. It sounds like a claim of desperation from someone?

There is no black flame anymore is there? I did a silver fire panel and had two samples from other users that made up silver fire panels.

Smudging is not a problem. I really had to rub hard to get any of my panels to smudge. Harp had a lot of issues. No one else has.

And now that my Auto Air beta tester has shown some shots - bidzer - it's gotten even simpler. Auto Air is not complete yet though. I need to do some final tests before I let you know the base. Unlike all of the previous things tried in the past, we (wbassett, cynical2, and myself) decided that everything had to pass muster with regards to neutrality. Look up D65 neutral and you can find the numbers.

Spectral response curves always received a lot of air time here. I personally didn't care for them as I could look at the numbers and the CIE plot and see how a paint mix was faring. I always knew how to do them but didn't have a need to do it. Regardless of this one thing that it does help in is that it shows very easily to the folks not in tune with neutrality how something will perform. It's very easy to say "you want a flat spectral response curve". That's pretty simple for someone to understand who could care less about L*ab, xyY, XYZ, etc. values. So here's some spectral response curves.

Someone asked about Black Flame - I don't have a sample of it and I even talked to Maurice about getting a sample of Silver Fire from him directly (you'll see why in the graph) but I never received anything. I beleive I still have that pm... regardless here are the 3 separate Silver Fire Spectral Response Curves:





I had to crop those images as I'm a moderator elsewhere and had links to that site there. You'll notice though that all three have the same wavy pattern. Not flat!

Here's the spectral response for HE558 alone:



That would be the definition of flat!

Mixed with True Value's Winter Mist:



While it still has a bit of a dip on both the red and blue sides it's a very good graph.

And you can look above for the graph of the Auto Air mix. I've changed the way I do spectral curves since talking to my friend Smokey Joe. They're a bit easier to read!
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post #16 of 1231 Old 02-17-2008, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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PS. At this point in time I do not recommend a topcoat for any of the Black Widow mixes! It counter acts the purpose of aluminum! I have to go back and read again what the purpose of a topcoat really was. Originally I thought it was for protection but they seem to have become exotic and I can't quite remember why...

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post #17 of 1231 Old 02-17-2008, 01:54 PM
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Yes... Black Flame is still around:
http://www.xtreme-fusion-screens.com/blackflame.html

how does this compare to the Black Widow?

anybody know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

I wonder where all this has come from...

There is no black flame anymore is there? I did a silver fire panel and had two samples from other users that made up silver fire panels.


Someone asked about Black Flame - I don't have a sample of it and I even talked to Maurice about getting a sample of Silver Fire from him directly (you'll see why in the graph) but I never received anything. I beleive I still have that pm... regardless here are the

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post #18 of 1231 Old 02-17-2008, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Is it?

http://www.xtreme-fusion-screens.com/

Quote:
we apologize to announce that xtreme fusion screens is closed for business

I don't know. I do know however there's quite the price difference!

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post #19 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 05:17 AM
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well after double checking... they left part of there web site open..

I am going to try out your screen then.

what is the best screen surface to paint on?

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Originally Posted by mech View Post

Is it?

http://www.xtreme-fusion-screens.com/



I don't know. I do know however there's quite the price difference!

mech

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Yep, I was in discussions with Black Flame a few months back and finally agreed on a price and ready to make the purchase when all communications suddenly died. Now I know why.

mech,
seems that one common question that keeps coming up is what is the best substrate to use. Maybe a list of some recommended ones will give most a fair amount of assurance, especially first timers.

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post #21 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 06:45 AM
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let's try it on a mirror


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post #22 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

let's try it on a mirror


Dark shades checked.....light her up!

Considering the main ingredient of BW is also used to make mirrors

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post #23 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 07:09 AM
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These were taken this morning, all on the 360. Some people were asking about skins tones so there are a few. I put in some dark scenes too. I don't have a DVR in the HT so I can't pause a cable HD feed. Might have to bring the one upstairs down here. Hope this helps everyone....

I'm posting a few but there are more in the album, don't want to clutter the thread with a ton of photos. Try to be bandwidth friendly

http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z...%20Widow/Dark/







Thanks,
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post #24 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 07:16 AM
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Here are a couple of pics to show the difference between the "Pebble Beach(grey-similar to Grey screen) with 2xPTC.
The test panels are only 2x2, hung in the middle of the screen, but all ya really have to do is look at the transition areas to see the difference.
These shots have a 75W table lamp to the right of where I took the pics, showing the typical orange glow of incandescent light on the screen...
Hows that hat look?

Another, clearly showing the superiority of the BW to the Grey+2 ptc

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post #25 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 07:19 AM
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Muzz,

All that yellow muddiness is gone :-)
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post #26 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 07:22 AM
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Another, her hair looks a bit orange outside of the test panel, and the dinosaur looks a bit washed out, but the test panel helps out there as well.
LL

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post #27 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 07:26 AM
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I'd say it cleaned things up pretty good Brian.

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post #28 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

"LARGE white areas look a bit bluish"
is this true?

I was referring to the camera white balance, I tried all the presets on my cameras, and no matter which setting, I was having issues with the pics coming out correctly.
I shot a white screen, and used the custom WB to sort that out, to give a better representation of what I am seeing.

Here is what I am referring to- first shot is with preset White Balance, 2nd shot is custom.




HTH

m

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post #29 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 08:15 AM
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Yeah, I don't let the camera preset anything, it's all manual. These aren't as bright as the actual thing. The shutter speed is only at 2-3 seconds on most, that's how much light the PJ is putting out. The room is completely dark.

F-Stop - 16
WB - 0
ISO 200
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post #30 of 1231 Old 02-18-2008, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The panels are primed with two coats of Kilz2.

I have identified 2 colors from the Pittsburgh Paint and Glass line that match my 'Mech's Headache' tint almost identically! I went to Lowe's today to get these matched, as I don't have a PPG store here. That went off without a hitch.

The mixes have been mixed and small samples drawn for spectro readings. The small samples will take a bit to dry yet. Expect readings shortly. They look identical to the other sample I made up previously.

At this point I'm waiting for the panels to completely dry and then I will apply two coats to each panel.

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