How you see the future of BD-Audio? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 100 Old 04-07-2008, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thirst Audio Only Blu-ray Music Title just announced!

"Grieg Music-Only Blu-ray Coming in April"

Surround Records has announced that they will release 'Grieg: Piano Concerto / Symphonic Dances / In Autumn' for Blu-ray on April 25th. The audio was recorded at 24-bit at Henry Wood Hall, Glasgow, from 13th to 15th May 2003 and will be presented using 7.1 DTS Master Audio for a prefect reproduction of the source material.

While there will be a limited visual experience, this release should be considered music-only. No audio only Blu-ray devices have been released thus far, but there is a Blu-ray Profile v3.0 that was developed and approved to provide an audio only experience. Without a doubt, if more companies release high definition audio on Blu-ray, you will likely see these audio only Blu-ray players hit the market soon. Until then, any Blu-ray player will be able to play this disc on your home theater set-up."


HOW YOU SEE THE FUTURE?
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post #2 of 100 Old 04-07-2008, 07:34 PM
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I'm not sure any of the major labels would release an audio only Blu-ray simply because there is a limited market for that in the minds of the average consumer. But I do think some of the more audiophile niche labels will eventually migrate to this format. Unfortunately DVD-Audio is dead and SACD is hanging on by a thread so if we are ever to see more high resolution music releases this is it.
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post #3 of 100 Old 04-07-2008, 07:50 PM
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I really hope BLU RAY does what DVD-Audio and SACD could not.... I hope Blu Ray becomes the media thru which 24/96+ mutichannel audio becomes successful. Let's hope that happens... for all of the people who really love music, I hope for the success of Blu Ray audio.

I look forward to buying every music title that comes out on Blu Ray, and I hope we get tons of good remasters as well....
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post #4 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 01:35 AM
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Nine Inch Nails: Ghosts I-IV is being released on an audio only BD in 96/24 stereo. Its part of a package though with 2 cds as well.
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post #5 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 05:30 AM
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I wish the BDA would publish the specs for Profile 3.0 so we could see exactly how the audio only software/hardware work.
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post #6 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 06:04 AM
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If we're getting the audio might as well have video as well when it's available. If a display isn't detected, it should play in audio only mode. If a display is detected it should play in concert mode.
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post #7 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 07:07 AM
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I hope that Blu Ray audio becomes a big success.
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post #8 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

I wish the BDA would publish the specs for Profile 3.0 so we could see exactly how the audio only software/hardware work.

In another thread, it seemed that the poster said it was something where the audio could play without a menu, but the discs could still play on any player. If they start making discs that only play on a new (optional) profile player, they'll fail. Part of the problem with DVD-Audio and SACD is that they were essentially tacked-on formats that depended on optional support in DVD players, unlike movies that had to be playable on any DVD player. Sure enough, they got limited support and eventually were dropped, especially from the cheap players that became so popular.

While they had to do it because DVD-Video didn't support good enough audio, that's not the case with BD. You should be able to play them on any BD player, without having to check the specs to see if the player supports an optional feature.

I think they're making a mistake by using DTS-HD MA, at least for now. Why limit your potential customers to maybe 10% of the players out there? This isn't like Fox movies where people will still buy them to get HD video. While I can see the benefit of using TrueHD or DTS-HD MA for movies to save space for video and extras, PCM should be just fine for mostly audio-only discs. Maybe in a year or two when most players (especially the PS3) support DTS-HD MA, things will be different.
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post #9 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 08:57 AM
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Blu Ray audio is the first format that would be unified for music. The nice part is that Sony is behind Blu Ray, so they can give up on pushing SACD, and push Blu Ray audio instead.

That being said, I'd prefer DD True HD for music in 24/96, up to 8 channels... The nice part about the Blu Ray spec is that it can provide 8 channels of uncompressed 24/96 PCM. One advantage of that is that for independant and small studios: they don't have to pay royalties to Dolby or DTS... They can just do 24/96 LPCM up to 8 channels if they wanted...

I like lossless compression as well since it doesn't affect quality. Either way, Blu Ray Audio is a great thing!!!
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post #10 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 09:01 AM
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Does the profile include 192khz/24bit?
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post #11 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Blu Ray audio is the first format that would be unified for music. The nice part is that Sony is behind Blu Ray, so they can give up on pushing SACD, and push Blu Ray audio instead.

That being said, I'd prefer DD True HD for music in 24/96, up to 8 channels... The nice part about the Blu Ray spec is that it can provide 8 channels of uncompressed 24/96 PCM. One advantage of that is that for independant and small studios: they don't have to pay royalties to Dolby or DTS... They can just do 24/96 LPCM up to 8 channels if they wanted...

I like lossless compression as well since it doesn't affect quality. Either way, Blu Ray Audio is a great thing!!!

You dont have to pay any money to DD or DTS in order to use their codecs on your release. You just have to make sure they are spec. compatible.

BD Audio is great. Hopefully it's not dependent on turning the TV on for listening!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Does the profile include 192khz/24bit?

For two channel. For more than 2 channel, its 24/96.

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post #12 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara Fox View Post

Thirst Audio Only Blu-ray Music Title just announced!

"Grieg Music-Only Blu-ray Coming in April"

Surround Records has announced that they will release 'Grieg: Piano Concerto / Symphonic Dances / In Autumn' for Blu-ray on April 25th....

HOW YOU SEE THE FUTURE?

Surround Sound on Blu-ray

Quote:


This is very similar to the putative forthcoming Rachmaninov 2 & 3 (see the thread in Blu-ray software forum) by the same companies: just a re-release of the same in SACD and DVD-A previously released in 2004 on Naxos, now with an up-mix of 5.1 to 7.1. Not a big deal really.

If what we're getting is mere re-release of previous SACD and DVD-A tracks on BD then the future doesn't look very promising.

PS. I already pointed out in the Rachmaninov thread that there's no point using dts-HD MA.

Edit: These initial batch of Naxos re-releases are not only up-mixed but some (including the Greg, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov discs) were originally recorded and mastered in 48kHz 24-bit so they are upsampled to 96kHz for the BD. (You can go to Naxos' website and check on their DVD-A listings. There are graphics of the back of the DVD-A showing the recording info.) It doesn't exactly admit this on the BD. What a marketing scam! Caveat emptor!

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #13 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara Fox View Post

blah blah blah, meaningless drivel from original post removed...



HOW YOU SEE THE FUTURE?


The future?

I see me putting a Blu-ray disc into my Sony Playstation 5, sitting down, and having a hand pop out from underneath my couch and pinch my ass whenever there's an explosion on screen.

Yup.
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post #14 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 02:39 PM
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Well, I don't see what's wrong with re-releasing previous titles, provided we also get new ones. It's not much different from releasing HD DVD titles on BD. With support for DVD-A and SACD dwindling, there would be a need for discs that will play on more players. Most BD players don't play SACD or DVD-A, and even the PS3 dropped SACD support starting with the 40GB model.

I hope these music titles will just play immediately rather than going through copyright screens or menus first. They could just put up a message to press a button to go to the menu if desired, but they should play like a CD with nothing to wait for.
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post #15 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

The future?

I see me putting a Blu-ray disc into my Sony Playstation 5, sitting down, and having a hand pop out from underneath my couch and pinch my ass whenever there's an explosion on screen.

Yup.



As long as it is a female hand!

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post #16 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 05:40 PM
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If DVD Audio, with backwards compatible DD or DTS tracks for all the gods knows how many DVD players in this world, didn't take off. Well, then I don't think BD-Audio will either.

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post #17 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Surround Sound on Blu-ray



If what we're getting is mere re-release of previous SACD and DVD-A tracks on BD then the future doesn't look very promising.

PS. I already pointed out in the Rachmaninov thread that there's no point using dts-HD MA.


That is wrong with recording that was previously released in 5.1,
At leased we know that it was great surround sound at the first place. Now when we have all these talks about 7.1 lossless audio why lose the opportunity to enjoy this surround music with the new generation of sound on Blu-ray.
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post #18 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDrexl View Post

I think they're making a mistake by using DTS-HD MA, at least for now. Why limit your potential customers to maybe 10% of the players out there? This isn't like Fox movies where people will still buy them to get HD video. While I can see the benefit of using TrueHD or DTS-HD MA for movies to save space for video and extras, PCM should be just fine for mostly audio-only discs. Maybe in a year or two when most players (especially the PS3) support DTS-HD MA, things will be different.

That I agree with wholeheartedly. there's NO reason to use DTS MA, or TrueHD. PCM all the way! It's just a marketing technique really, making people think it's some amazing new format that improves the sound quality WAAAAAAY beyond (PCM). They're also marketing it because people are familiar with the names Dolby and DTS, so it will probably sell better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Does the profile include 192khz/24bit?

It doesn't support 7.1 192kHz, and not even 5.1, I think. But who needs it, the priority is that it's 24-bit and lossless, and surround if possible. And 96kHz if possible
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post #19 of 100 Old 04-08-2008, 09:05 PM
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8 channels of 24/96 PCM is possible with Blu Ray audio...

Quote:


If DVD Audio, with backwards compatible DD or DTS tracks for all the gods knows how many DVD players in this world, didn't take off. Well, then I don't think BD-Audio will either.

SACD has a lot to do with the problem. With Sony strongly behind Blu Ray, I think we finally have one high resolution format for everything.... I am optomistic, other than the fact the music industry took a major hit from the Internet...
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post #20 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 12:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara Fox View Post

why loose the opportunity

I think you meant to say "LOSE" not "loose" (very different words with different meanings).

Personally I would love all the multichannel SACD material to be re-released as-is on BD.
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post #21 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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As a solution, until profile 3.0 is out, If we talking highest quality (8 channels 24bit/96k) the DTS-HD MA is the way to go simply because you can put 4 times more music on a single disc, plus 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio is backwards compatible with 5.1 and 2.0 matrix that makes it universal for all sound set-ups and can be played, like many mention here "like a CD with nothing to wait for"
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post #22 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara Fox View Post

As a solution, until profile 3.0 is out, If we talking highest quality (8 channels 24bit/96k) the DTS-HD MA is the way to go simply because you can put 4 times more music on a single disc, plus 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio is backwards compatible with 5.1 and 2.0 matrix that makes it universal for all sound set-ups and can be played, like many mention here "like a CD with nothing to wait for"

DTS-HD Master (or TrueHD) is not a very good solution since it can't be decoded or passed by very many players (what is the point of having HD lossless audio that is presented as standard lossy to 95% of the BD owners?) . DTS-HD Master will certainly not be used in Profile 3.0 because it is an optional format(s) and not compatible with all BD players. Storage space is not an issue so compression is not needed in profile 3.0. Profile 3.0 will likely (and should) have very limited audio options since there will be no video menu to select from. Profile 3.0 needs to work as much like a CD as possible since some players (like car or high end home audio players) won't have any video circuits. LPCM will almost certainly be the Profile 3.0 standard since it is a mandatory format for BD and 100% backwards/forwards compatible with all Profile players. There will probably be just 2 audio tracks, a multi channel and a 2 channel to select from.
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post #23 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchglen View Post

It doesn't support 7.1 192kHz, and not even 5.1, I think.

Blu-ray supports 6 channels at 192kHz/24-bit and 8 channels at 96kHz/24-bit.
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post #24 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 12:49 PM
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There's all this talk about profile 3.0. Who agrees with me in saying, stuff 3.0?! We've already got full capability, full quality and full compatibility with the current blu-ray format and players, and it's just up to the music studios if they want to start releasing high quality "Blu CDs".

It would only make things more complicated! *Even* more complicated, if we needed new special players, *again*. I doubt they're going to make some sort of blu-ray music format that doesn't have menus. They just can't resist with DVD-Audio. They like to jazz it up with as much pointless "extras" as they can, like with DVD.

The only profile 3.0 I would want, is a spec that can be played on every blu-ray player from profile 1.0 onwards, and have NO menu capability. Essentially, it would be the music disc format replacement to CD, and Sony's replacement for SACD, and I would like to see both DSD and PCM in the spec, as DSD can be in blu-ray, apparently. And, apparently both DSD and PCM have room for improvement, and will get better in the future, so I'd like to see 192kHz 7.1ch support, and dull DSD.

---
About DTS-HD MA, although it's nice that they have their "legacy" codec thing, on a 50GB disc you can still fit 3 hours of 24-bit/96kHz audio in 7.1, 5.1 and 2.0. do the maths - PCM is all you need!
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post #25 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 01:31 PM
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I don't see any reason why BD-audio can't include LPCM and also Dolby TrueHD and/or DTS-HD MA as additional optional codecs. I would like to see DSD included as well as long as I'm wishing for things. My understanding is the Profile 3.0 would only require a firmware upgrade, not a hardware upgrade for any/all existing BD players, i.e. all current and future players should be (and hopefully will be) compatible with the spec.
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post #26 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clara Fox View Post

As a solution, until profile 3.0 is out, If we talking highest quality (8 channels 24bit/96k) the DTS-HD MA is the way to go simply because you can put 4 times more music on a single disc, plus 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio is backwards compatible with 5.1 and 2.0 matrix that makes it universal for all sound set-ups and can be played, like many mention here "like a CD with nothing to wait for"

The codec doesn't have anything to do with whether we have to wait for the music to play or not. There's nothing stopping them from having copyright screens and menus load regardless of what codec they use. BTW, I don't have a problem with menus. I want menus; I just don't want them to load first like they do with many movies.

Basically what I want is a standard Blu-ray Disc just like the ones they're making now, that would be playable on all BD players. However, I want it set up for ease of use when no monitor is present. That means it starts playing right away, and you can control the disc solely using the play, stop, and chapter up/down buttons. You could also change mixes by pressing the audio button.

A menu would be provided, but it just wouldn't load automatically. Maybe you'd get an onscreen prompt to press "menu" as soon as the disc starts, so when you have a display you can navigate a real menu with track names and access to whatever extras they want to include, like videos. The menus would be pretty cool, since they can pop up on the screen without stopping playback of the music.

I just thought DTS-HD MA wasn't a good choice for now because so many players don't decode and/or pass the lossless audio. With the PS3 accountable for so much of the base out there, why alienate them? I don't think having the DTS core would suffice. Again though, when the majority of players support it, they can use DTS-HD MA.

I'm not so sure I'd want DSD, because then we're back to the issue of player/receiver support. I believe you'd be shutting out many HDMI 1.1 players and receivers.
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post #27 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchglen View Post

There's all this talk about profile 3.0. Who agrees with me in saying, stuff 3.0?! We've already got full capability, full quality and full compatibility with the current blu-ray format and players, and it's just up to the music studios if they want to start releasing high quality "Blu CDs".....
The only profile 3.0 I would want, is a spec that can be played on every blu-ray player from profile 1.0 onwards, and have NO menu capability...

Relax Profile 3.0 is about the software not having video and will be 100% compatible with all BD players. Profile 3.0 only hardware just won't have any video circuitry. So you don't need to buy a new Profile 3.0 player (unless you want one in your car) to enjoy Profile 3.0 BD's.
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post #28 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchglen View Post

---
About DTS-HD MA, although it's nice that they have their "legacy" codec thing, on a 50GB disc you can still fit 3 hours of 24-bit/96kHz audio in 7.1, 5.1 and 2.0. do the maths - PCM is all you need!

PCM is all you need but the content owners are leary of giving away their studio masters on a format that is completely open to piracy. Consumer level tools do not exist to manipulate Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA streams, but virtually anyone can handle PCM. That is the real reason why studios have been moving away from PCM. The content owners don't want consumers having access to the raw studio master. Blu-ray unfortunately has already been cracked and an enterprising person could strip the PCM audio tracks to do whatever they wanted with it. I believe PCM will become increasingly rarer as Blu-ray grows older.
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post #29 of 100 Old 04-09-2008, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Stranger View Post

PCM is all you need but the content owners are leary of giving away their studio masters on a format that is completely open to piracy. Consumer level tools do not exist to manipulate Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA streams, but virtually anyone can handle PCM. That is the real reason why studios have been moving away from PCM. The content owners don't want consumers having access to the raw studio master. Blu-ray unfortunately has already been cracked and an enterprising person could strip the PCM audio tracks to do whatever they wanted with it. I believe PCM will become increasingly rarer as Blu-ray grows older.

That's a very lame conspiracy theory.
The fact is; why use PCM when you can use advanced codecs to present the track at full quality while preserving bandwidth and space?
Example; Chris Botti 24/96 5.1 track uses a 13.9mbps constant bandwidth. Dolby TrueHD 24/96 5.1 track on Celine Dion uses about 7-8mbps of bandwidth and maximum is about 10-11mbps.
Why use doing something less efficient that what you're capable of?
I don't some folks fascination with PCM. Do you want lossless or PCM?

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post #30 of 100 Old 04-10-2008, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakashizuma View Post

That's a very lame conspiracy theory.
The fact is; why use PCM when you can use advanced codecs to present the track at full quality while preserving bandwidth and space?
Example; Chris Botti 24/96 5.1 track uses a 13.9mbps constant bandwidth. Dolby TrueHD 24/96 5.1 track on Celine Dion uses about 7-8mbps of bandwidth and maximum is about 10-11mbps.
Why use doing something less efficient that what you're capable of?
I don't some folks fascination with PCM. Do you want lossless or PCM?

2 Reasons:

1: TrueHD and DTS-HD Master are optional codecs and require a mandatory track. Profile 3.0 is about simplicity, insert the disc and play plus with no menu to select tracks.

2: Space and data rate mean noting in Profile 3.0. No one is going to market a 10 hour Profile 3.0 BD so you can use as much space as you want and BD25's. You will never need 2 BD's even on the longest operas.
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