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post #1 of 81 Old 04-15-2008, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html
This is interesting. 2L records are readying a high-resolution music download service, and have a page where you can download test samples of their recordings in PCM WAV, FLAC, WMA Pro, DTS, but get this - DSD and DXD!

As for what consumer hardware and software on this planet can even play it back, well it's interesting...all Sony Vaio desktops and laptops as from 2005 come with Sony's "Sound Reality" chip which supports multichannel DSD and DXD. They come with Sony's "DSD Direct" player which I have not been able to get my hands on. Although I don't think it can play DXD WAVs. Also, newer versions of Sony's Sonic Stage Mastering Studio, which also comes with the Vaios I believe, can record, edit and playback DSD. Wish I had this software...and then of course all those uber-expensive SACD authoring and pre-authoring apps like nexStage SACD creator.

The most common file extension used for DSD64, which is the common 1-bit 2.8MHz format used on SACD discs, is .dff. DXD is mainly used for editing by the studio engineer, but DSD64 is the one of interest here. 2L do not have DSD128 on offer (5.6MHz standard), but they record in DXD so there's no point.

So that's all very fine, but what about everyone else who doesn't have a Sony Vaio? Well you need a sound card with a DAC that supports DSD input. For those of you with the Auzentech X-fi Prelude, it supports stereo DSD! (but not multichannel, and not DXD). Also, the Realtek ALC889 integrated audio chipset (used on boards like Gigabyte GA-X38T-DQ6) does, but probably not DXD.

At the moment, the only way I can play back the DFF files from 2L, is with a DSD plugin for WMP (again by Sony), which I HAVE gotten a hold of. It's a DSD->PCM plugin. Obviously, it sounds quite nice! But pure actual DSD playback is what we're after, and I wanted to ask anyone, do you think the upcoming HDMI 1.3 cards by Asus and Auzentech are going to support DSD (i.e. bitstreaming DSD through HDMI on to a receiver)? Could it, hypothetically, with a driver hack? Any hardware device with HDMI 1.2 onwards has capability to pass DSD, encrypted or unencrypted. But I wonder if Asus and Auzentech will not supported it in the drivers.

I wonder if there are any other sound cards that support DSD? Given no SACD-capable drives have been allowed or intended by Sony, DSD support has been pointless. But with these downloads, we may not even need SACD for PC playback!
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post #2 of 81 Old 04-16-2008, 08:21 PM
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Wow. I'm supprised someone else hasn't commented yet.

Direct download DSD?

if that's so, and the hardware isn't initially priced high like the SACD players were when they first came out, include multi-channel, then that would potentially obsolete SACD disks.


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post #3 of 81 Old 04-19-2008, 10:42 AM
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I wonder if we'll ever be able to burn discs and play them in our SACD players?

This is good news though, and step in the right direction.
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post #4 of 81 Old 04-19-2008, 12:02 PM
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The only problems I can see with a download without physical media future are...

1) People will have to start thinking like backup administrators. You are essentially risking many thousands of dollars worth of music (assuming people even pay for it...) to hard disk or computer failures. Typically, consumers suck at backing up computer data.

2) I still think there is something to be said for that feeling of ownership and the experience of discovering and purchasing a new cd or album. I get all antsy when I know a new vinyl LP is heading my way in the mail. Grabbing something off of a torrent when you just read a review of it 15 minutes ago cheapens something you might otherwise really enjoy.
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post #5 of 81 Old 04-19-2008, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illy View Post

The only problems I can see with a download without physical media future are...

1) People will have to start thinking like backup administrators....

2) I still think there is something to be said for that feeling of ownership and the experience of discovering and purchasing a new cd or album....

I'm with you. on #1 and #2. In addition, how would you run a used record store with downloads? There's something fun about browsing the titles and finding a rare surprises.


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post #6 of 81 Old 04-19-2008, 03:08 PM
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The acquisitive nature of humanity will always allow for physical media (for music, movies, books, etc.) to always be around, though its relevance and popularity will wax and wane.
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post #7 of 81 Old 05-01-2008, 08:30 PM
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I wonder if any Oppo players with DSD and USB 2.0 will be able to play these downloads?

Oppo 980H?

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post #8 of 81 Old 06-14-2008, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illy View Post

The only problems I can see with a download without physical media future are...

1) People will have to start thinking like backup administrators. You are essentially risking many thousands of dollars worth of music (assuming people even pay for it...) to hard disk or computer failures. Typically, consumers suck at backing up computer data.

2) I still think there is something to be said for that feeling of ownership and the experience of discovering and purchasing a new cd or album. I get all antsy when I know a new vinyl LP is heading my way in the mail. Grabbing something off of a torrent when you just read a review of it 15 minutes ago cheapens something you might otherwise really enjoy.


100% agree, people do suck at backing up their stuff, this includes myself and I am a Database administrator.

The physicial media allows us to keep the music without having to manage it and managing your music library can be fun to do from time to time, not likely to become a daily excercise for most people. I could download something but would hate having manage my files.
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post #9 of 81 Old 06-21-2008, 04:35 PM
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Downloaded the 257 MB Surroiund 5.1 DFF file. This extracts to about 376 MB and seems to be one track only.

Burnt to DVD as data dvd using nero smart start essentials. Wouldn't accept .dff file type for music CD/DVD.

Tried in Oppo 980 and orignal PS3 and Oppo says unknown disc and PS3 recognises data disc but says no tracks when you try to play it.

Obvious question is what am I doing wrong?

cheers blairy
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post #10 of 81 Old 06-22-2008, 02:29 AM
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I sent a mail to them about this, no one has replied so far hahahaa.

so much for DSD and SACD for replacing CDs

Boo!
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post #11 of 81 Old 06-24-2008, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blairy View Post

Downloaded the 257 MB Surroiund 5.1 DFF file. This extracts to about 376 MB and seems to be one track only.

Burnt to DVD as data dvd using nero smart start essentials. Wouldn't accept .dff file type for music CD/DVD.

Tried in Oppo 980 and orignal PS3 and Oppo says unknown disc and PS3 recognises data disc but says no tracks when you try to play it.

Obvious question is what am I doing wrong?

cheers blairy

You are not doing anything wrong as files provided are master material. They are DFF (DSDIFF) which is a 1-bit profesional audio file format used for SACD production. The name stands for Direct Stream Digital Interchange File Format (file extension .dff). You could transform it to DSF with some highly priced editing software.

Note that PS3 can play DSF (Direct Stream File and extension is .dsf) which is a 1-bit audio file format developed and used by Sony. They work in some VAIO personal and laptop computers equiped with Sound Reality Sigma-Delta DAC and also on before mentioned PS3.

You can play stereo version of both types with DSD WMP plugin. http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/files/14...ackPlug-in.zip
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post #12 of 81 Old 07-13-2008, 04:20 AM
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There's a guide on 'How to make DSD Discs' at http://www.ps3sacd.com/dsddiscguide.html including the plug-in for DSD playback with Windows Media Player 10/11.

For the reason Raveer explains directly above (the different DSD flavours of DSF and DFF) the procedure will not work (in this form) for the 2L downloads, sadly.
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post #13 of 81 Old 09-13-2008, 08:08 PM
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I have a Creative X-Fi Elite Pro sound card which has a Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC. It supports direct DSD input and will filter and decode straight to analog (no DSD -> PCM). However, I don't know if there is software support in Windows for direct DSD decoding. I'd love to get my hands on that Sony DSD Direct Player.
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post #14 of 81 Old 09-14-2008, 01:48 PM
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It might be of interest to the list that Morten from 2L is making his HD library available to iTrax.com...stay tuned.

I realize there has always been two camps on the DSD (DXD) vs. HD PCM debate. I'm a staunch believer that the noise shaping of DSD is untenable and requires bandwidth filtering to master onto the discs. PCM on the other hand is wonderful if done right.

And HD downloads are happening NOW! There are many customers that purchase gigabytes from iTrax.com...they are all over the world. They have the hardware and want instant (or near instant) gratification...rather than waiting for a box. As for backups, I have a record of their purchases and if their hard drive goes down...I let them download them again.

This is the future and the future is now. For less than $2500, you can acquire a truly state-of-the-art 2-channel HD Audio playback system that will beat the very best CD player on the planet! Imagine spending $65,000 for the Burmester to spin standard resolution CDs?!? I can't.
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post #15 of 81 Old 09-18-2008, 12:29 PM
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The WMP11 plugin will not allow me to play the DSD sample files, I just get an error from WMP11.

Not good. I'll try the WAVE at 96 next.
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post #16 of 81 Old 10-28-2008, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. AIX View Post

It might be of interest to the list that Morten from 2L is making his HD library available to iTrax.com...stay tuned.

I realize there has always been two camps on the DSD (DXD) vs. HD PCM debate. I'm a staunch believer that the noise shaping of DSD is untenable and requires bandwidth filtering to master onto the discs. PCM on the other hand is wonderful if done right.

And HD downloads are happening NOW! There are many customers that purchase gigabytes from iTrax.com...they are all over the world. They have the hardware and want instant (or near instant) gratification...rather than waiting for a box. As for backups, I have a record of their purchases and if their hard drive goes down...I let them download them again.

This is the future and the future is now. For less than $2500, you can acquire a truly state-of-the-art 2-channel HD Audio playback system that will beat the very best CD player on the planet! Imagine spending $65,000 for the Burmester to spin standard resolution CDs?!? I can't.

Mark, you have piqued my curiosity with your mention of a $2,500 SOTA HD audio playback system. Can you tell me the specific components for the front end? I want to start downloading your recordings but have not yet taken the hard drive plunge!
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post #17 of 81 Old 11-01-2008, 01:03 PM
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I'm sorry to have been away so long but life has been quite busy. The system I'm referring to when I say a great system can be acquired for less than $2500 is a Mac Mini with a Benchmark DAC-1 USB attached. You can playback a downloaded AIX Records track (try Mosaic from Laurence Juber's Guitar Noir for the ultimate in high frequency content) through iTrax.com. Try and you'll see what I mean.
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post #18 of 81 Old 04-18-2009, 11:38 AM
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sorry to dig up an old thread, but do you know of any way of sending these dsd recordings through hdmi to a DSD capible reciever?

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post #19 of 81 Old 04-18-2009, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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sorry to dig up an old thread, but do you know of any way of sending these dsd recordings through hdmi to a DSD capible reciever?

Do you have a PS3? That's the only way I know, that you can currently do it. You can burn DSD files (in DSF form) to a "DSD Disc" with Sony's DSD Direct 2.0, which actually can run on a non-Sony computer, I have burned off DSD Discs on my Dell computer myself. These DSD Discs play on the PS3....I dont have a PS3 though so have tested it...

OH....just realised. These 2L recordings are in the form of DFF, not DSF...not much software, or anything I have ever used, will convert between DFF and DSF - two types of DSD audio containers. The downloads are mainly for audio engineers to test out on their DAWs.

DSD in general has really not been opened up to consumers, I hope it will one day. It's mostly in the hands on Sony....grr
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post #20 of 81 Old 04-19-2009, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zryder View Post

sorry to dig up an old thread, but do you know of any way of sending these DSD recordings through HDMI to a DSD-capable reciever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchglen View Post

Do you have a PS3? That's the only way I know, that you can currently do it. [...] I dont have a PS3 though so have tested it...

Sorry but PS3 will not output DSD via HDMI, only (high-resolution) PCM. See the PS3 SACD FAQ.

The best way I know to play DSD to HDMI is to record it on a blank DVD (see DSD Disc Guide referenced above) and play that on an SACD player with DSD output via HDMI such as the Sony SCD-XA5400ES, or some Oppo models.

Quote:


OH....just realised. These 2L recordings are in the form of DFF, not DSF...not much software, or anything I have ever used, will convert between DFF and DSF - two types of DSD audio containers.

Correct. Some of the professional stuff (hardware) from Korg and such may do it. The players I mentioned above will not help here until it's converted.

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I realize there has always been two camps on the DSD (DXD) vs. HD PCM debate.

There has been the DSD vs HD PCM debate but DXD = HD PCM so I think the debate will end.
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post #21 of 81 Old 07-15-2009, 02:25 PM
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Firstly I am sorry to ressurect the old thread, but I think this is the right place to post it.

Wheatus have released their latest EP as a DSD and FLAC 24/88.2 download. With first you can create a DSD disc which is playable on Vaio computers, Playstation 3, XA-5400ES and Korg Mr-1/Mr-1000 portable recorders. The later can be used to create a DVD-Video/Audio hybrid disc playable on DVD-Video/Audio players.

Stuff is available from their site at www.wheatus.com.
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post #22 of 81 Old 07-16-2009, 10:07 AM
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Wheatus have released their latest EP as a DSD and FLAC 24/88.2 download... available from their site at www.wheatus.com.

Is this available in surround? I didn't see a multichannel reference on the website.

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post #23 of 81 Old 07-16-2009, 10:45 AM
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No, it is not available in surround, as DSF spec is stereo only. They could release DFF (master format) in surround but nobody could play it. You need a Sonoma or Pyramix station to do that and AFAIK it was recorded in stereo.
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post #24 of 81 Old 07-16-2009, 11:37 AM
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A Surround Music forum is probably not the best place to post about stereo only music. You might want to try the Two-Channel Audio forum. There might be more people there interested in two channel music.
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post #25 of 81 Old 07-16-2009, 04:26 PM
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Well yeah, I am sorry for that. I prefer MCH myself, but still how many times have you seen a band releasing DSD material to the public for free. And the stereo guys are too narrow minded about MCH music and any alternative to vinyl, so I tend to stay away, so I do not catch anything.
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post #26 of 81 Old 07-16-2009, 05:30 PM
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Please feel free to post anything you like here. Just suggested that stereo topics may be better received on a stereo form. Good point you have, though. If its not vinyl it may not be received on a stereo forum.

We should rename these forums to open minded forum and narrow minded forum. LOL.
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post #27 of 81 Old 08-07-2009, 10:33 AM
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Most of the tracks i've downloaded and converted to .wav are around 500mb.

Is there a way to burn a dvd with music only ?
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post #28 of 81 Old 08-07-2009, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiman View Post

Is there a way to burn a dvd with music only ?


http://www.audio-dvd-creator.com/

Boo!
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post #29 of 81 Old 08-07-2009, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
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Most of the tracks i've downloaded and converted to .wav are around 500mb.

Is there a way to burn a dvd with music only ?

Sure, but what do you want to play it in? DVD-Video supports up to 2-ch PCM at 24/96. 5.1 will have to be compressed with lossy DD or DTS.

Audio files can be burned on DVD as a DVD-ROM and played on select players. Compatibility depends on the player and the file format.
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post #30 of 81 Old 08-07-2009, 11:50 AM
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I'll re-phrase : what's the best way to play these files on a regular HT system.

I would prefer to burn a disc and play it on my universal player (dvd or dvd-a)

2nd option would be to stream the music to my PS3.

Any options would have to be with the highest sound quality.
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