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Old 03-12-2012, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevepow View Post

Thanks for the heads up on SACD...

I'm thinking of just recording the DAC outs from the SACD to hi-res WAV - maybe 24/96 as a single mch wav and see how that does. For general non-critical listening, I'm betting it will be fine and let me keep my SACDs put away for special occasions or until a more reasonable conversion process comes along.

And yes, this will be time consuming as well - like putting LPs on cassette/DAT/etc in the old days.

For general DVDA rip playback, what are you guys finding to work best? I'm looking at one of the Oppo universal players - are there other alternatives to consider? Sonos and XBox don't work, so....? Testing on my PC is fine, but that is not my end goal.

My workflow at this point is:

1) DVDFab in Clone mode to rip an ISO to hard disk.
2) Foobar2000/DVD decoder to open the ISO and convert the 5.1 tracks to Flac. (sometimes the metadata database fills in the info, most times I have to do in manually before converting)

I tried out DVDA Explorer and it worked, but just didn't seem as featured as using the above (didn't see a way to edit the metadata before ripping).

Not fast by any means but working...5 discs so far - a stack more waiting and more coming from Amazon...yikes...

There is another called DVD - A Extractor which you have to pay for. I used both DVD-A Explorer and DVD-A Extractor on mine. I ripped to WAV and then used Foobar to convert the WAV to FLAC. I had problems with speed and got a lot of errors when trying to use those programs to FLAC directly. It could have just been me though.

I use an Oppo BDP- 93 to stream my FLAC files from an NAS hard drive (using Twonky). I also have a USB connected hard drive to the Oppo for ISO rips (only way it will play ISO rips).

24 bit/192 multichannel from a stand alone player......choices are limited. I like the Oppo but I am stuck with the December firmware forever because Oppo removed ISO functionality with the latest firmware.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The average Joe pops the SACD/DVD-A into their player. If you're streaming from a server, then you are probably an above average Joe and have some computer skills. But your points are on the mark. Still, I consider the most difficult part of ripping SACD to be finding a proper PS3. Once you have that, modifying it takes mere minutes. The processes are a bit time consuming, but one doesn't have to sit and watch while ripping, file transfer from USB stick to computer and extraction/conversion are taking place.

Jeff

OK, so maybe I keep an eye on ebay then for a PS3...

I have not played a CD disc in ages - maybe 10 years or more. Started out with a Turtle Beach Audiotron Network Audio player and rode it into the ground - tried XBox (pretty terrible that it was worse - slow - glitchy -than the 10 yr old Audiotron ) for a bit and then moved to Sonos which is nearly heaven, especially as far as the wife see it. So I'd like to now get similar accessibility for my DVDAs at least if not SACD too.

@ WillieJ - fellow ATL man! - you said "I've ripped all my DVD-A's and stream them via ethernet via my Oppo BDP-93 and a Western Digital MyBookLive NAS..." - so just to verify, you can play 5.1 Flac rips this way on that newer Oppo? Or is it only stereo? And how about the playback of DVDA ISOs from an attached hard drive? Does that really work - although I'd rather stream the flacs? Thanks.

Stephen Powell
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by stevepow View Post

OK, so maybe I keep an eye on ebay then for a PS3...

I already started "screening" in case I encountered someone who wanted one. The last time I did it was 2-3 weeks ago. I ended up emailing 40 sellers or so for info on firmware version. It took a week.
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevepow View Post

... you said "I've ripped all my DVD-A's and stream them via ethernet via my Oppo BDP-93 and a Western Digital MyBookLive NAS..." - so just to verify, you can play 5.1 Flac rips this way on that newer Oppo? Or is it only stereo? And how about the playback of DVDA ISOs from an attached hard drive? Does that really work - although I'd rather stream the flacs? Thanks.

The -93 will play up to 24bit/196 multichannel FLAC and WAV via ethernet or USB connected drive (and firewire although I haven't used firewire). It was one of the reasons I bought the player a year ago when it came out. Works flawlessly although the Twonky interface and the Oppo interface leave a little to be desired in terms of useability, they get the job done. You can create playlists and play them using Twonky.

The ISO playback of DVD, DVDA and BluRay via attached USB hard drive was a firmware upgrade for the -93 and -95 that Oppo did last spring but they just removed it in the latest firmware update. If you are quick (and I mean quick) you might be able to pick one up with the old firmware still installed because you cannot rollback firmware on the Oppos. I plan to keep mine on the December firmware forever. Will be picking up a Sony 3D BluRay player to use for those movie discs that won't play in the Oppo (bound to happen eventually) and I'll also use the Sony for Amazon Prime On Demand which is something missing from the Oppo and my Tivo and my Samsung plasma which should keep the wife happy.
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:59 PM
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Did Oppo say why they removed that ability?
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ovation View Post

Did Oppo say why they removed that ability?

I don't know if they said why, but the best bet is that it was a requirement to continue to license Blu-ray. I will be interested in seeing what Dune does as they have a model or two with the BD license. For licensees going forward, Cinevia must be enforced. And that won't just be for content popped into the optical drive. So they either drop licensing BD or they stop streaming ripped Blu-ray movies.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovation View Post

Did Oppo say why they removed that ability?

Quoting from Oppo's website:

"Per request from the studios, the ISO file playback function has been removed in this firmware version. The previous firmware had the ability to play ISO files, but it was an undocumented function and was never officially announced or supported. Future firmware revisions will no longer support ISO playback."
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:27 PM
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It's nice that they addressed it and it is as suspected.

The pendulum is swinging against people that purchased movies and want to be able to watch them across multiple platforms (or without all the previews!) in favor of the content owners who want additional monies every time something is watched on a platform different than the one that was purchased. That *is* what this is all about. Piracy hurts the content owners, but the big revenue to be gained lies in rigidly controlling our ability to watch across platform .. and then charging us some small fee to unlock our lawful purchases to watch on another platform. Google ultraviolet; that is the future as seen by the studios.
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Old 03-13-2012, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

There is another called DVD - A Extractor which you have to pay for. I used both DVD-A Explorer and DVD-A Extractor on mine. I ripped to WAV and then used Foobar to convert the WAV to FLAC. I had problems with speed and got a lot of errors when trying to use those programs to FLAC directly. It could have just been me though.

I use an Oppo BDP- 93 to stream my FLAC files from an NAS hard drive (using Twonky). I also have a USB connected hard drive to the Oppo for ISO rips (only way it will play ISO rips).

24 bit/192 multichannel from a stand alone player......choices are limited. I like the Oppo but I am stuck with the December firmware forever because Oppo removed ISO functionality with the latest firmware.

A Dune Player will do what you need and give you a customizable user interface in the process as well as allow network access.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:38 AM
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A Popcorn Hour player will as well.
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:18 AM
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seems like 26/96 streaming players are becomming more common - Linn, Nad, Cambridge - some pricey and then the Bluray players...

So will the Dune or Popcorn play the ISOs? That seems less common.

Stephen Powell
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:36 AM
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Dune/PCH have a very wide variety of file format compatibility. Yes, they read DVD/BD ISO's but not DVD-A or SACD ISO's.

Jeff
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

A Popcorn Hour player will as well.

...what he said...
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by stevepow View Post

seems like 26/96 streaming players are becomming more common - Linn, Nad, Cambridge - some pricey and then the Bluray players...

So will the Dune or Popcorn play the ISOs? That seems less common.

The Dune will open any ISO file. If it looks inside and sees a format that it cannot natively play such as MLP or DSD, then it will say nothing to play and return.

Most people who stream, will rip all of their music to a universal, lossless format for consistancy and metadata search/navigation capability, SACD and DVD-Audio included.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:17 AM
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

The Dune will open any ISO file. If it looks inside and sees a format that it cannot natively play such as MLP or DSD, then it will say nothing to play and return.

Most people who stream, will rip all of their music to a universal, lossless format for consistancy and metadata search/navigation capability, SACD and DVD-Audio included.

Are there any media streamers that plays DVD-A ISO's? I am looking for alternatives to my Oppo 93, but none that I have seen have MLP codec support. Ripping to FLAC or some other format isn't a total replacement for DVD-A ISO playback.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Are there any media streamers that plays DVD-A ISO's? I am looking for alternatives to my Oppo 93, but none that I have seen have MLP codec support. Ripping to FLAC or some other format isn't a total replacement for DVD-A ISO playback.

It should be. MLP and FLAC are containers. (So is an ISO.) Inside a DVD-A ISO is MLP and inside that is PCM. If you set the FLAC output to match the bitrate and sampling rate of the MLP, you will then have PCM in a FLAC container and no conversion will have taken place, i.e. it is a bit-for-bit copy of what was in the MLP.

No media streamers read DVD-A ISOs thought you could do it with an HTPC.

Jeff
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Are there any media streamers that plays DVD-A ISO's? I am looking for alternatives to my Oppo 93, but none that I have seen have MLP codec support. Ripping to FLAC or some other format isn't a total replacement for DVD-A ISO playback.

Why not keep your -93 with the December firmware on it indefinitely and buy either a 2nd -93 to keep up to date with the latest firmware or buy an inexpensive blu ray player for those occasional discs that the Oppo won't play in the future. I am in the same boat as you with the ISO support on the -93 and I think I am going to just pickup a Sony BDP-S580/S480 ($115/$91 at Amazon) for those blu ray discs the Oppo won't play in the future. My understanding is that Blu Ray players pretty much all do the same job on hi def material unless you want to tweak the video. The Sonys also have some pretty good video streaming options (Amazon on demand, netflix, hulu, etc.) that will probably be better supported than the Oppo too.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post


It should be. MLP and FLAC are containers. (So is an ISO.) Inside a DVD-A ISO is MLP and inside that is PCM. If you set the FLAC output to match the bitrate and sampling rate of the MLP, you will then have PCM in a FLAC container and no conversion will have taken place, i.e. it is a bit-for-bit copy of what was in the MLP.

No media streamers read DVD-A ISOs thought you could do it with an HTPC.

Jeff

I've ripped flacs for some of my DVD-A's but I like the ability to access videos, hi-rez stereo content, etc. on the DVD-A without also ripping those. It's just a convenience that the Oppo 93 with ISO playback gives me that I'd like to find in a media streamer in case I lose the ISO functionality.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post


Why not keep your -93 with the December firmware on it indefinitely and buy either a 2nd -93 to keep up to date with the latest firmware or buy an inexpensive blu ray player for those occasional discs that the Oppo won't play in the future. I am in the same boat as you with the ISO support on the -93 and I think I am going to just pickup a Sony BDP-S580/S480 ($115/$91 at Amazon) for those blu ray discs the Oppo won't play in the future. My understanding is that Blu Ray players pretty much all do the same job on hi def material unless you want to tweak the video. The Sonys also have some pretty good video streaming options (Amazon on demand, netflix, hulu, etc.) that will probably be better supported than the Oppo too.

WillyJ,
That's currently my plan also. I have a PS3 for those Blu-rays that won't play without a firmware update on the Oppo.

I'm still a little concerned the Oppo will need a repair that requires a firmware update at some point in the future and was hoping there would be an alternative if my Oppo lost ISO playback. However, I can't find another media streamer with MLP codec support without going the HTPC route.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:07 AM
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It is a simple matter with foobar2000 to convert MLP to FLAC with zero loss. MLP is a container with PCM inside and specifying the same bit and sampling rates for the FLAC, foobar takes the PCM and places it untouched otherwise into the FLAC container.

And all media streamers read hi rss multichannel FLAC.

Jeff
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

WillyJ,
That's currently my plan also. I have a PS3 for those Blu-rays that won't play without a firmware update on the Oppo.

I'm still a little concerned the Oppo will need a repair that requires a firmware update at some point in the future and was hoping there would be an alternative if my Oppo lost ISO playback. However, I can't find another media streamer with MLP codec support without going the HTPC route.

I think the Dune HD will play ISO but from what I read, it has some issues with 3D ISO and it also happens to be about the price of a new Oppo -93.

I've always wondered why Oppo keeps the old firmware links active on their website: We can't install an older firmware on the player so why keep the firmware pages on the website at all?

I bet some sharp fellow comes out with a hack to allow us to install an older firmware. Based on all the talk on the 93/95 thread, there certainly is enough interest. Just in case, I went ahead and saved the December firmware to my computer in case I have to reload it at some point but will not be installing any newer firmware - that is an affirmative.

EDIT: Oh and by the way, I have an older PS3 but it too has to stay on an older firmware forever since I use it for SACD ripping.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post


EDIT: Oh and by the way, I have an older PS3 but it too has to stay on an older firmware forever since I use it for SACD ripping.

As fragile and rare as they are, it will only ever be used to rip.

Jeff
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

It is a simple matter with foobar2000 to convert MLP to FLAC with zero loss. MLP is a container with PCM inside and specifying the same bit and sampling rates for the FLAC, foobar takes the PCM and places it untouched otherwise into the FLAC container.

And all media streamers read hi rss multichannel FLAC.

Jeff

Again, the issue is not that I can't rip FLACs from DVD-As using Foobar. I prefer ripping and storing DVD-A ISOs since they represent exact images of the original DVD-A disc. The Oppo allows me to play these DVD-A ISOs. I'm just surprised that the Oppo seems to be the only game in town when it comes to playing DVD-A ISO's.

This has some significant advantages: If I'm already storing the DVD-A ISO on a HDD I don't have to also store FLACs, it allows me to easily play bonus content such as videos, and also the hi-rez stereo tracks which I typically wouldn't rip if I mainly listen to the MCH tracks, and probably most important, I can get gapless playback by playing directly from the ISO, which I can't get playing or streaming individual FLAC files on the Oppo.

Do media streamers typically have gapless playback when streaming individual FLAC files? Or will they play from a cuesheet with track points to get gapless playback? I realize this is possible with HTPC's running Foobar, but what about Dune, Popcorn Hour, etc?
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

..... I can get gapless playback by playing directly from the ISO, which I can't get playing or streaming individual FLAC files on the Oppo.

Do media streamers typically have gapless playback when streaming individual FLAC files? Or will they play from a cuesheet with track points to get gapless playback? I realize this is possible with HTPC's running Foobar, but what about Dune, Popcorn Hour, etc?

I get gapless playback from the -93 streaming FLAC via ethernet from a WDLIVE NAS - Using Twonky with playlists it works great. I have MCH 24/96 and Stereo up to 24/192 and they are fine. I listen to most of my DVD-A's in this fashion - I cannot tell the difference between my rips and my shiny discs. (Which I wish was the case with my ripped SACD's.)
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

I get gapless playback from the -93 streaming FLAC via ethernet from a WDLIVE NAS - Using Twonky with playlists it works great. I have MCH 24/96 and Stereo up to 24/192 and they are fine. I listen to most of my DVD-A's in this fashion - I cannot tell the difference between my rips and my shiny discs. (Which I wish was the case with my ripped SACD's.)

Really?!? I may have to check out a WDLive NAS then. I'm pretty sure I've used playlists through Twonky but it still gives me gaps streaming from my WD MyBook drive. Other DLNA servers such as Foobar and MediaMonkey also introduce gaps when streaming individual FLAC files, even when using playlists. The Oppo will also recognize a cuesheet with a full-disc FLAC file using Foobar as a media server but it still streams with gaps from my HDD.

I agree with you about SACD rips. The conversion to PCM for FLAC files using the Foobar SACD plug-in is not as high a quality as playing from the disc IMO. Even when the Oppo converts to PCM instead of straight DSD to analog, it is better quality than when Foobar does the conversion.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Really?!? I may have to check out a WDLive NAS then. I'm pretty sure I've used playlists through Twonky but it still gives me gaps streaming from my WD MyBook drive. Other DLNA servers such as Foobar and MediaMonkey also introduce gaps when streaming individual FLAC files, even when using playlists. The Oppo will also recognize a cuesheet with a full-disc FLAC file using Foobar as a media server but it still streams with gaps from my HDD.

I agree with you about SACD rips. The conversion to PCM for FLAC files using the Foobar SACD plug-in is not as high a quality as playing from the disc IMO. Even when the Oppo converts to PCM instead of straight DSD to analog, it is better quality than when Foobar does the conversion.

What I am calling "gapless" is clickless and no long silences - is this what you mean?

When I play back from my NAS, it sounds just like the DVD-A it was recorded from. No clicks or other issues. About the only "issue" I have is the play order that you and I discussed a few weeks ago when playing from the "folders" folder which I worked around by using playlists.

I have the WD LIVE 2TB NAS which I purchased from Amazon for less than
$150.

EDIT: Another thought: What software did you use to create the FLAC's? Could the software you have used put the clicks or long gaps in the FLAC file? I used DVD-A Extractor and DVD-A Explorer to rip to WAV and then used Foobar to get from WAV to FLAC.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

What I am calling "gapless" is clickless and no long silences - is this what you mean?

When I play back from my NAS, it sounds just like the DVD-A it was recorded from. No clicks or other issues. About the only "issue" I have is the play order that you and I discussed a few weeks ago when playing from the "folders" folder which I worked around by using playlists.

I have the WD LIVE 2TB NAS which I purchased from Amazon for less than
$150.

EDIT: Another thought: What software did you use to create the FLAC's? Could the software you have used put the clicks or long gaps in the FLAC file? I used DVD-A Extractor and DVD-A Explorer to rip to WAV and then used Foobar to get from WAV to FLAC.

Gapless playback means no pauses between tracks. Think of Dark Side of the Moon, Abbey Road, or other recordings where one track transitions to another without a gap, or pause. Playing from a HDD, the Oppo will introduce a pause of about a second between the tracks. I have also tried many different DLNA servers, and all have pauses between tracks when streamed to the Oppo.

It's the biggest disadvantage to playing music from a HDD or streaming music via DLNA to the Oppo, IMO. Foobar and other media players can play gapless from a pc or htpc. I'm curious if other media streamers offer gapless playback.

A workaround is to rip a single full-disc FLAC with a cuesheet but even then, the Oppo won't play gapless if played from the cuesheet. You can get gapless playback by playing the full-disc FLAC directly, but then you don't get track info, or navigation control (selecting tracks, Stop, Pause, etc.) when playing directly from the full-disc FLAC file.

If I can get true gapless playback with a WDLive NAS, then it would be time to retire my WD MyBook World Edition NAS. Can you verify that you get no gaps by playing Dark Side of the Moon, if you have that recording?

BTW, I use the same process for ripping FLACs from DVD-A discs, although I've settled on DVD Audio Extractor as my preferred ripping software vs. DVD-A Extractor.
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Old 03-20-2012, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Gapless playback means no pauses between tracks. Think of Dark Side of the Moon, Abbey Road, or other recordings where one track transitions to another without a gap, or pause. Playing from a HDD, the Oppo will introduce a pause of about a second between the tracks. I have also tried many different DLNA servers, and all have pauses between tracks when streamed to the Oppo.

It's the biggest disadvantage to playing music from a HDD or streaming music via DLNA to the Oppo, IMO. Foobar and other media players can play gapless from a pc or htpc. I'm curious if other media streamers offer gapless playback.

A workaround is to rip a single full-disc FLAC with a cuesheet but even then, the Oppo won't play gapless if played from the cuesheet. You can get gapless playback by playing the full-disc FLAC directly, but then you don't get track info, or navigation control (selecting tracks, Stop, Pause, etc.) when playing directly from the full-disc FLAC file.

If I can get true gapless playback with a WDLive NAS, then it would be time to retire my WD MyBook World Edition NAS. Can you verify that you get no gaps by playing Dark Side of the Moon, if you have that recording?

BTW, I use the same process for ripping FLACs from DVD-A discs, although I've settled on DVD Audio Extractor as my preferred ripping software vs. DVD-A Extractor.

I would try this for you but I have my listening room under some re-construction right now. I should be able to test it this weekend though.
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Gapless playback means no pauses between tracks. Think of Dark Side of the Moon, Abbey Road, or other recordings where one track transitions to another without a gap, or pause. Playing from a HDD, the Oppo will introduce a pause of about a second between the tracks. I have also tried many different DLNA servers, and all have pauses between tracks when streamed to the Oppo.

It's the biggest disadvantage to playing music from a HDD or streaming music via DLNA to the Oppo, IMO. Foobar and other media players can play gapless from a pc or htpc. I'm curious if other media streamers offer gapless playback.

A workaround is to rip a single full-disc FLAC with a cuesheet but even then, the Oppo won't play gapless if played from the cuesheet. You can get gapless playback by playing the full-disc FLAC directly, but then you don't get track info, or navigation control (selecting tracks, Stop, Pause, etc.) when playing directly from the full-disc FLAC file.

If I can get true gapless playback with a WDLive NAS, then it would be time to retire my WD MyBook World Edition NAS. Can you verify that you get no gaps by playing Dark Side of the Moon, if you have that recording?

BTW, I use the same process for ripping FLACs from DVD-A discs, although I've settled on DVD Audio Extractor as my preferred ripping software vs. DVD-A Extractor.

The Dune will play gapless if using a cue file with the flac. It can then navigate by skipping forward and back between tracks just fine.
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