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post #1 of 143 Old 01-20-2011, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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This post by a Mr_Wicked suggests it's possible -- on SACD-compatible PS3s -- and he's actually nearly there:

http://www.ps3sacd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=341
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post #2 of 143 Old 01-20-2011, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T7T
This post by a Mr_Wicked suggests it's possible -- on SACD-compatible PS3s -- and he's actually nearly there:

http://www.ps3sacd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=341
Too bad Sony does not make this vesrsion of Ps3 anymore.

Grabbing in PCM was possible for a while with modified players. Now we have software based solution. I expect increased number of Sacd copies available in torrent networks.
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post #3 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 03:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Grabbing in PCM was possible for a while with modified players.

How was that done? What happened that it's no longer possible?
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post #4 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by T7T View Post

How was that done? What happened that it's no longer possible?

By 'was' he means it was the best method for a while.

Recently even mod boards for grabbing the raw DSD stream from players have surfaced.

But this new files method is obviously the one that we've all wanted for years.

I don't know how to link to the PCM guides (that I've seen) without linking it to a pirate-related site.

But for DSD, one of the methods is a card done by this russian guy, here: http://dom.hi-fi.ru/forum/messages/f...message1304912

Also a guy at hydrogenaudio sent me a DSD sample from his own I2S->USB mod board.

It's gone a long way, sacd ripping.
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post #5 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Too bad Sony does not make this vesrsion of Ps3 anymore.

Grabbing in PCM was possible for a while with modified players. Now we have software based solution. I expect increased number of Sacd copies available in torrent networks.

This is all news to me; I mean, recording the analog-out...and switching out boards and such, I get (but am really not interested in). But a "software"-based solution? Do tell?

CD

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post #6 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

This is all news to me; I mean, recording the analog-out...and switching out boards and such, I get (but am really not interested in). But a "software"-based solution? Do tell?

CD

not entirely software - i.e., the only currently fully working method involves using the ps3 in linux - it's a bit of software that harnesses PS3's SACD decypting chip to extract the files from the SACD disc. see the link in OP.

We're trying to develop a method to do it all with simply computer DVD drives. Half of the step is done (we can etract the files off any SACD disc) but the second half (decrypting the extracted MCH/2CH files without needing the PS3 hardware SACD chip) has not yet been achieved.

It takes a lot of time (and motivation), and it might not even happen, unless help from others can arrive.

If anyone has audio encryption cracking/hacking knowledge and is interested it would be appreciated to be contacted. I guess this is not best board to ask this on though.
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post #7 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vfalks View Post

We're trying to develop a method to do it all with simply computer DVD drives. Half of the step is done (we can etract the files off any SACD disc) but the second half (decrypting the extracted MCH/2CH files without needing the PS3 hardware SACD chip) has not yet been achieved.

It's very simple: If it were possible to do the decryption without the dedicated hardware in the drive and purely in software, then Sony would have done so on PS3 from the 3rd generation onwards, rather than remove SACD functionality -- if not from the 1st generation. Fact is that the extra circuitry is needed to obtain the key from the disc.
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post #8 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T7T View Post

It's very simple: If it were possible to do the decryption without the dedicated hardware in the drive and purely in software, then Sony would have done so on PS3 from the 3rd generation onwards, rather than remove SACD functionality -- if not from the 1st generation. Fact is that the extra circuitry is needed to obtain the key from the disc.

Hmm, I don't think so. I think Sony has it such that all legal licenced sacd players can only have it in the hardware chip, making it much harder (or impossible) to extract a ready-made official decryption library from such a legal source. (so it has to be defeated by pure old cracking and reverse-engineering - we make our own decryption library from scratch, that does the same job.)

If it were in software on the PS3, Sony knows that it could be easily extracted, and the copy protection system would possibly be defeated pretty easily due to it being in the software realm.

This is how DVD-A's CPPM(/CPRM) system was completely defeated in 2007. A nice convenient decryption library, all laid out for the taking, called libdvdcpxm, was found in the firmware of a regular old DVD-A player. Before that was discovered, we were all using the decryption provided for us by WinDVD, which although it's in software, I think it was too legally-troublesome (and/or just too annoying) to reverse-engineer its protected CPPM decrpyter DLL in order to rip DVD-As without the need for it.

So no, I think it's just that Sony were uber careful when designing the SACD copy protection system, and stipulated that the scheme would be as hardware-based as possible, so as to make it harder to break.

but:

Quote:


Fact is that the extra circuitry is needed to obtain the key from the disc.

Maybe, maybe...there's still a lot we don't even know...there's many claims (and bogus claims based on ignorance, and we're all a little ignorant at this point) about how the system works, and if that claim is from a reliable source, it could still mean that 'you need the special circuitry (in the form of a licenced legal SACD chip) in order to decrypt SACD because there aint any software solutions available - cause sony won't "allow" it'.

I definitely think _PSP_ "needs" the circuitry in order to recognise and read the content from the SACD disc...(but anything can be emulated in software anyway, right? aaaanyway.), but with simple disc hot swapping in a dvd drive and possibly simple modification of dvd drive firmware, we don't need this extra circuitry for even PSP...

So it's possible....it just requires some hard work and time and motivation. (to crack the 80-bit encryption)
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post #9 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 11:23 AM
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Having said that (ecuse the double post) - I reckon that an app for PS3 could be made (probably it would be illegal, in that it's against sony's licence terms for SACD - but then again this whole thing is illegal, breaking the DMCA law, right?), such that non-SACD playing PS3s can actually play SACD.

MAYBE. I'm just thinking out loud.....hmmmmmm...PSP might not be possible - unless the firmware in PS3 can be modified in the same way that we might be able to modify dvd drive firmware so that SACDs can be 'seen' on the computer.

but real-time reading and processing of the SACD data and feeding it to the sound device like the chip would all normally do, might be hard or impossible. BUT...maybe it can be done. how awesome would that be.

and btw, this goes the same for the pc too. once a dvd drive is modified, to recognised SACDs, and maybe you write little software for reading the TOCs on the disc to interpret it into the correct files for the PC, maybe an SACD-playing program can be written. A software SACD player.

And then, maybe someone can write a DSD driver for HDMI sound cards so that you can have DVD->DAC pure decoding too. ooh ooh..exciting :P

but the encryption system is still the main thing holding it all back right now. that's hard work.
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post #10 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Interesting thinking. I'm afraid trying to modify a plain DVD-ROM drive to decode PSP is like trying to modify a CD-ROM drive to read DVDs but perhaps there's another way to obtain the keys such that you don't need to deal with PSP at all. A lot of security systems have been compromised of late. Either way, good luck.
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post #11 of 143 Old 01-21-2011, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T7T View Post

Interesting thinking. I'm afraid trying to modify a plain DVD-ROM drive to decode PSP is like trying to modify a CD-ROM drive to read DVDs but perhaps there's another way to obtain the keys such that you don't need to deal with PSP at all. A lot of security systems have been compromised of late. Either way, good luck.

no time to explain now, you'll see it if it eventuates.

thanks!
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post #12 of 143 Old 01-23-2011, 05:06 PM
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Just to show a little proof that I'm truly bypassing PSP (making it a useless protection system): here's the TOC files from the Dark Side of the Moon SACD. http://www.sendspace.com/file/fbkbqw Open them with notepad to see the info inside. (The SACD format has album and artist and track info included - aka 'SACD Text').

And here are screenshots of the file extracting process and the extracted files (including the glorious 2CH and MCH DSD files): 1, 2, 3, 4

This is from the current working DVD drive method, not the PS3 method.

And two more, to cement the proof: TOCs and screenshots for Marvin Gaye Let's Get It On. And Getz/Gilberto.
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post #13 of 143 Old 01-23-2011, 09:54 PM
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In a situation where the encryption is broken, the ideal solution for me is to have a program that does a good DSD-to-88.2kHz (or 176.4) PCM conversion. Pure DSD is lost, but you gain the multitude of playback options and file tagging while preserving the good mastering jobs that we get with so many SACDs.
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post #14 of 143 Old 01-24-2011, 12:49 AM
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I must admit I am very impressed with the progress so far in the ripping of SACD's. And I agree, if it can be done, then the output ideally should be in some sort of PCM format (not DSD decrypted) which means it can be played on a variety of players with no additional software.
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post #15 of 143 Old 01-24-2011, 02:56 AM
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there will be an option for everybody's tastes and preferences. the breakthrough is that we can grab and decrypt the original files off the disc. the rest is child's play...so there will be dst, uncompressed dsd, pcm/wav/flac output options...reccomended to output in dsd so that you can convert to pcm with a better conversion program like the commercial apps such as the now-free korg audiogate (or if you're lucky, weiss saracon, philips protech audio format converter).
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post #16 of 143 Old 01-24-2011, 07:20 AM
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http://www.stereophile.com/content/blue-smoke-black-box-music-server

Blue Smoke Black Box Music Server
By Jon Iverson Posted: Jan 11, 2010
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Music server manufacturer Blue Smoke returned to CES this year as part of the Rockport Technologies suite in the upper echelons of the Mirage. The company's product is the $6,995 Black Box music server where they focus on creating an optimal environment for digital music on the hardware side and assume the customer will choose a Windows compatible music player and interface. For their demo, Windows Media Center was used with a Dell touchscreen (seen on the right) and keyboard/mouse combo for the control functions. A MSB DAC, located under the Black Box in the photo above, converts the data to analog.

Blue Smoke's Peter Sills explains that inside the box one half is devoted to the PC and the other to their proprietary sound system. The company has adopted some of MSB's technology that makes use of ethernet-type RJ-45 connectors and CAT-6 cables to facilitate high rez audio data and networking via MSB's version of I2S in addition to all the usual input/output suspects. Blue Smoke has also spent time coming up with some software apps to handle audio files at all resolutions in as clean a method as possible.

What really caught our attention was the company's claim that they had a way to allow SACD's DSD data to be captured as PCM and played back with their system. Due to Sony's draconian implementation of SACD copy management, Blue Smoke has adopted support of MSB's I2S network link which provides the ability to capture the files that started life as an SACD disc and then play them from your hard drive. Sills explained that you first start with an SACD player that has been modified with MSB's XPort DSP upgrade to convert the data to PCM before sending it out of the machine. After capturing the data and doing some editing with an application like Sony's Sound Forge Pro to chop up the stream into FLAC format and adding metadata, you ultimately end up with 32 bit/176kHz PCM files.

Sills assures us that sound quality is maintained through this process, but let's hope Sony finally sees the error of their ways and allows DSD the freedom it deserves.
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post #17 of 143 Old 01-24-2011, 09:02 AM
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like the other mod boards mentioned above, that doesn't capture the 'files', it captures an output stream, an output stream that entirely depends on the quality of the components of the SACD transport it's ripping from.

That close to the source, it might not make much difference, but it's not the same as copying the files authored on the disc.

cool though. but expensive and uncessary. wonder how they'll react when they hear this...['doh'...]
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post #18 of 143 Old 01-24-2011, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vfalks View Post


cool though. but expensive and uncessary. wonder how they'll react when they hear this...['doh'...]

Guess it depends on how long it will take for your "team"to decrypt the DSD files

Anyway, even when (if) you managed to do that, I doubt if they could use your IP in a commercial product.
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post #19 of 143 Old 02-04-2011, 10:30 AM
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AFAIK, the encryption key for SACDs are read by reading the PSP watermark. Although the PS3 SACD drive can read the encrypted contents of a commercial SACD, in linux, the disc cannot be duplicated because the encryption key is necessary to decrypt the DSD audio data (also compressed via DST).

For example, if one were to dump out the contents of the commercial SACD and then burn that image to a DVD-R, it cannot be played in any SACD player, because it lacks the PSP watermark AND is still encrypted.

Of course, 80 bit encryption is not all that robust...

Under the DMCA, consumers are allowed to make a personal backup of their digital collection of copyrighted works. So, the work being done to provide a legal playable backup copy of a consumer's SACD collection is permitted under the DMCA.

The best ways of combating piracy continues to be having resort to the court system and having a closed network of authorized replicators who utilize digital watermarking schemes to frustrate the efforts of pirates...but it won't stop them...because sufficient back doors have always existed...the analog hole...mods to SACD players...or more expensive professional solutions.

IMHO, it is not possible to protect an optical disc product fully, and the failure of SACD and DVD-A protection schemes is evidence that supports this opinion.

Perhaps the best way to frustrate pirates is to serialize copies of discs that can be traced to individual owners. This protection scheme is already implemented in SACD replication.

On the consumer side, the right to make a backup copy of their collection is fair and just. Otherwise, consumers would have to repurchase discs they bought before just because they became unplayable through the aging process.
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post #20 of 143 Old 02-04-2011, 03:36 PM
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yeah i think that since we have the equipment in our hands to DEcrypt the encrypted content, we always find ways to hack into that equipment of ours to access or otherwise achieve our own replication of that decrpytion (via studying it) to then use it for more than it was intended for: copying, and backing it up (as opposed to just playing it). Case in point with PS3 for SACD. And with DVD-A the decryption library was found in the firmware of a DVD-A player. Which then enabled DVDFab DVD-A copying.

So i think that the very way the system is designed, it's by nature feasible for us to break. only way for us not to break it would be for us to have no players.
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post #21 of 143 Old 02-04-2011, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vfalks View Post
yeah i think that since we have the equipment in our hands to DEcrypt the encrypted content, we always find ways to hack into that equipment of ours to access or otherwise achieve our own replication of that decrpytion (via studying it) to then use it for more than it was intended for: copying, and backing it up (as opposed to just playing it). Case in point with PS3 for SACD. And with DVD-A the decryption library was found in the firmware of a DVD-A player. Which then enabled DVDFab DVD-A copying.

So i think that the very way the system is designed, it's by nature feasible for us to break. only way for us not to break it would be for us to have no players.
Yes, this is a basic tenet of cryptography. We have both the public and private keys, so it is impossible to prevent access.

They can, however, make it technically challenging and inconvenient. Too bad Fair Use does not have force of law, yet anti-piracy does.

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post #22 of 143 Old 02-05-2011, 11:41 AM
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I believe that consumer rights rule in this case because of the following situation:

1. Consumers have no way to protect their investment in their entertainment library in a high definition format: SACD or DVD-A against aging or other natural catastrophe (of whatever kind).

2. The industry has offered no solution for this problem.

3. The industry will not back up its product with any kind of a warranty/replacement service, nor is it economically feasible to do so.

4. The shelf life of SACD and DVD-A replicated media is not uniform and can, in some cases, have a limited lifespan.

So, in the case of the producer of SACD or DVD-A title, there is enough uncertainty about the lifespan of the product that a consumer can allege misrepresentation as to the life of the product only after the product deteriorates to unplayability.

But Fair use provisions of the DMCA allows the consumer to make a backup copy of their collection of copyrighted works to alleviate this uncertainty and to prevent losses.

However, the industry has not provided a way to backup its products to a condition where the copy is a playable disc, but has prevented the consumer from doing so, even potentially making it appear illegal to find a way to backup their product, when it is not (in accordance with the DMCA fair use provisions).

The industry has made no provisions for educational use of copyrighted works either, even though the DMCA provides such use is legal.

The piracy industry doesn't care about DMCA, because its operations are centered in foreign jurisdictions not subject to DMCA. But they are guilty of theft, which is prosecutable in all jurisdictions.

In view of these facts, I would say that Fair Use does have the rule of law, when put that way, framed in the interests of consumers (as a group).

The hidden motive of the industry is to force the consumer to repurchase items that are defective. Of course, that practice is not ethical, is it? Consumer rights advocates must take their stand against the law firms who represent the industry that makes a closed system that frustrates the legitimate use of the product by honest people who paid for the products they purchased from them.
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post #23 of 143 Old 02-06-2011, 10:59 AM
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Any updates?
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post #24 of 143 Old 02-06-2011, 09:10 PM
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wow this is cool!!

Matt

"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live." - George Carlin
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post #25 of 143 Old 02-07-2011, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

Any updates?

I'll enquire.

EDIT: I just received a highly detailed and encouraging update. encryption cracking is definitely happening. great, great work is being done, wow. it's just a longer process than was anticipated. other hackers are now getting involved...to finish it off.
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post #26 of 143 Old 02-07-2011, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vfalks View Post

I'll enquire.

EDIT: I just received a highly detailed and encouraging update. encryption cracking is definitely happening. great, great work is being done, wow. it's just a longer process than was anticipated. other hackers are now getting involved...to finish it off.

Thanks for the update. No piracy intentions on my part. I consider it fair use to want to load my sacds on a music server preserving the high fidelity of the recordings.
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post #27 of 143 Old 02-09-2011, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

Thanks for the update. No piracy intentions on my part. I consider it fair use to want to load my sacds on a music server preserving the high fidelity of the recordings.

I wonder what format the output will be? I presume it will be PCM so part of the library so to speak will need to decrypt the DSD stream and then convert to PCM (which is what the PS3 does now). From there I guess FLAC to save space?

Really cool would be if somebody could write an open source encoder for Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master but that's pretty unlikely.
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post #28 of 143 Old 02-10-2011, 05:48 AM
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As an aside...

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Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

Really cool would be if somebody could write an open source encoder for Dolby TrueHD

THAT was being started by a talented rookie coder at FFmpeg project. An MLP/TrueHD encoder, based off the open-source DEcoder by ian caulfield. (you can see it on google summer of code.) I was helping him for a while in the way of testing and informing how dvd-a worked but then he stopped developing .

I have an old sample of the encoder but he didn't implement 24-bit yet, so it only does 16-bit...shame as it was likely going to have even better compression than the official encoders!
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post #29 of 143 Old 02-10-2011, 02:25 PM
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I had seen that on the Google Summer of code project but it never seemed to deliver a product. I guess that's the reason why. I don't know if TrueHD (either Dolby's or the open source encoder) would deliver a better compressed stream than FLAC but at least it's more easily playable on more devices.
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post #30 of 143 Old 02-11-2011, 02:12 AM
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The biggest benefit of wrapping any mch HD track in TrueHD encoding is that it can be bitstreamed and decoded inside the processor so as to avoid any HDMI/LPCM jitter concerns between say a PC decoding mch FLAC and said processor.
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