SACD Decoder plugin for foobar2000 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 07-07-2011, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Based on sacd-ripper code the new http://sacddecoder.sourceforge.net project is started.

Max.
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post #2 of 34 Old 07-07-2011, 10:01 AM
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Apparently, the previous DSD plugin is not adequate?
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post #3 of 34 Old 07-07-2011, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Apparently, the previous DSD plugin is not adequate?

Sort of... It doesn't decode DST streams and SACD ISO images.
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post #4 of 34 Old 07-07-2011, 10:45 AM
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All that's left to create then is a PC drive that can read SACD. Presumably then Foobar could open a SACD directly like it does CDs now. Wouldn't that be cool?
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post #5 of 34 Old 07-07-2011, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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The only drives that can do SACD reading are inside PS3. And they are OOP now.
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post #6 of 34 Old 11-10-2011, 05:53 PM
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As you alluded to in your initial post, there is now SACD ripper software available which works only on very specific models and specific firmware versions of the PS3 from which one can make an ISO of the SACD, transfer to PC, and be read by Foobar2000.

I have just purchased one of those ps3 players and will be giving this thing a whirl in the coming weeks. My goal is to get my SACD collection on my NAS to be streamed from my Oppo BDP93.
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post #7 of 34 Old 11-11-2011, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

As you alluded to in your initial post, there is now SACD ripper software available which works only on very specific models and specific firmware versions of the PS3 from which one can make an ISO of the SACD, transfer to PC, and be read by Foobar2000.

I have just purchased one of those ps3 players and will be giving this thing a whirl in the coming weeks. My goal is to get my SACD collection on my NAS to be streamed from my Oppo BDP93.

Let us know how it goes. I have been looking at doing the same thing
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post #8 of 34 Old 07-21-2012, 07:57 AM
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On a related note, has anyone figured out how to use an older transport with i.Link (IEEE1394 aka Firewire), such as a Pioneer Elite DV-79avi, to stream DSD in realtime to foobar2000, or to capture the stream (solely for fair-use purposes) so it can be replayed later via software like foobar2000?

Or is the DSD still encrypted and therefore useless to the current foobar2000 plugin?

-jer
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post #9 of 34 Old 07-21-2012, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremya View Post

On a related note, has anyone figured out how to use an older transport with i.Link (IEEE1394 aka Firewire), such as a Pioneer Elite DV-79avi, to stream DSD in realtime to foobar2000, or to capture the stream (solely for fair-use purposes) so it can be replayed later via software like foobar2000?
Or is the DSD still encrypted and therefore useless to the current foobar2000 plugin?

Not sure, but I think you would have to rip the DSD using SACD ripper and then play it back using the foobar SACD/DSD plugin. Be aware that most streaming of DSD normally involves some type of DSD to PCM conversion so the quality of the conversion is important to the results you hear.

BTW, I was successful ripping my SACD's to ISO and then to FLAC but it is a huge undertaking of time for the entire process and quite an undertaking just to get the hardware and ripper software to work. I got a decent FLAC copy but it doesn't match the quality of the DSD shiny disc. Better than CD though. And when I say undertaking, you are looking at 1 hour + for each rip and huge hard drives for storage and manipulation.
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post #10 of 34 Old 07-22-2012, 11:46 AM
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Thanks, Willy. I'm sure that would work, but as you point out, isn't what I want. The whole point of getting the bits off the disc is to play them in places where I don't have DSD hardware, such as on my laptop, etc., through a nice pair of headphones (like Sennheiser HD-650s) without compromising quality if at all possible. =)

-jer
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post #11 of 34 Old 07-22-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

BTW, I was successful ripping my SACD's to ISO and then to FLAC but it is a huge undertaking of time for the entire process and quite an undertaking just to get the hardware and ripper software to work. I got a decent FLAC copy but it doesn't match the quality of the DSD shiny disc. Better than CD though. And when I say undertaking, you are looking at 1 hour + for each rip and huge hard drives for storage and manipulation.

Thanks for the report. I wasn't going to ask, but I was indeed curious how it went. =)

I'm well aware that any such endeavor ("ripping" SACD) is going to happen in realtime, especially if i'm doing playback from a transport like the DV-79avi that can't be controlled by a PC. At this point I need to do some more looking into programmatically capturing Firewire data (even code that captures DV/MPEG2 transport streams should get me enough traction to just speak to the port). If i can sniff anything over the wire with an SACD spinning, it'll be a start.

-jer
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post #12 of 34 Old 07-22-2012, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremya View Post

Thanks for the report. I wasn't going to ask, but I was indeed curious how it went. =)
I'm well aware that any such endeavor ("ripping" SACD) is going to happen in realtime, especially if i'm doing playback from a transport like the DV-79avi that can't be controlled by a PC. At this point I need to do some more looking into programmatically capturing Firewire data (even code that captures DV/MPEG2 transport streams should get me enough traction to just speak to the port). If i can sniff anything over the wire with an SACD spinning, it'll be a start.

Good luck with that. You will have to overcome the DTCP (5C Encryption) protection on the iLink connection.
In order to get the player to start streaming you will have to successfully perform a DTCP handshake-look at the AVC SECURITY function.
You will also need to look at the Audio & Music transport protocol, not necessarily MPEG2 TS.
You will also need to implement an 1394TA Disc controller, which is no trivial task.
Enjoy subunit identifiers, subunit status descriptors, list descriptors, entry descriptors, and more.

The good news is that devices like the pioneer implement a pretty dumbed down disc implementation.
You will need:
1394TA Specifications
AVC Disc Subunit General Specification 1.2 2002001
AVC Disc Media Specification - DVD 2000001
AVC Digital Interface Command Set General Specification Version 4.2 2004006
AVC Descriptor Mechanism 1.2 2002013
Audio and Music Data Transmission Protocol 2.1 2001024
DVDForum Specifications
guideline1394V09R0_20011009c.pdf
DTCP Specifications
http://www.dtcp.com/documents/dtcp/info-20111214-dtcp-v1-rev-1-p-7.pdf

Good luck
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post #13 of 34 Old 07-22-2012, 01:25 PM
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The Pioneer 79 can be controlled by a computer once you implement a 1394TA Disc Subunit Controller.
Hint:
Step 1: Open and read the subuit identifier to get the sizeOfListID, sizeOfObjectID, sizeOfObjectPosition, the number of root lists and their ID's
Step 2: Open and read the root contents list (list ID 0x3000 I think) list descriptor, read the number of object entries.
Step 3: Read each object entry to get its object ID, name, title, duration, etc.....
Step 4: Loop through each object entry
Issue Configure, Set Plug Association, Security, Search, Play
Capture and decrypt the A&M packets in real time

Have fun. smile.gif
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post #14 of 34 Old 07-22-2012, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremya View Post

On a related note, has anyone figured out how to use an older transport with i.Link (IEEE1394 aka Firewire), such as a Pioneer Elite DV-79avi, to stream DSD in realtime to foobar2000, or to capture the stream (solely for fair-use purposes) so it can be replayed later via software like foobar2000?

Or is the DSD still encrypted and therefore useless to the current foobar2000 plugin?
Realtime streaming of DSD from a transport to a software player seems way too difficult to even comprehend.
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post #15 of 34 Old 07-23-2012, 08:44 AM
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Ii do have an extra ps3 that I use for SACD ripping that I would like to sell. Please pm me if interested.
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post #16 of 34 Old 07-23-2012, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Good luck with that. You will have to overcome the DTCP (5C Encryption) protection on the iLink connection.
In order to get the player to start streaming you will have to successfully perform a DTCP handshake-look at the AVC SECURITY function.
You will also need to look at the Audio & Music transport protocol, not necessarily MPEG2 TS.
You will also need to implement an 1394TA Disc controller, which is no trivial task.
Enjoy subunit identifiers, subunit status descriptors, list descriptors, entry descriptors, and more.
The good news is that devices like the pioneer implement a pretty dumbed down disc implementation.
You will need:
1394TA Specifications
AVC Disc Subunit General Specification 1.2 2002001
AVC Disc Media Specification - DVD 2000001
AVC Digital Interface Command Set General Specification Version 4.2 2004006
AVC Descriptor Mechanism 1.2 2002013
Audio and Music Data Transmission Protocol 2.1 2001024
DVDForum Specifications
guideline1394V09R0_20011009c.pdf
DTCP Specifications
http://www.dtcp.com/documents/dtcp/info-20111214-dtcp-v1-rev-1-p-7.pdf
Good luck

Quote:
Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

The Pioneer 79 can be controlled by a computer once you implement a 1394TA Disc Subunit Controller.
Hint:
Step 1: Open and read the subuit identifier to get the sizeOfListID, sizeOfObjectID, sizeOfObjectPosition, the number of root lists and their ID's
Step 2: Open and read the root contents list (list ID 0x3000 I think) list descriptor, read the number of object entries.
Step 3: Read each object entry to get its object ID, name, title, duration, etc.....
Step 4: Loop through each object entry
Issue Configure, Set Plug Association, Security, Search, Play
Capture and decrypt the A&M packets in real time
Have fun. smile.gif

Thanks, qz3fwd. Sounds like good reading for a rainy day. =^) I really appreciate the leg up. Of course, given your apparent domain knowledge, if you can point to someone who has already implemented the hard bits, I'm all ears. No point in re-inventing the wheel apart from a learning exercise. =)

-jer
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post #17 of 34 Old 07-24-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremya View Post

Thanks, qz3fwd. Sounds like good reading for a rainy day. =^) I really appreciate the leg up. Of course, given your apparent domain knowledge, if you can point to someone who has already implemented the hard bits, I'm all ears. No point in re-inventing the wheel apart from a learning exercise. =)

There are no publicly avaliable implementations which I am aware of in source form.
This is due to the substantial specifications mentioned above.

However you could take a lot of shortcuts and focus on:
1. Isochronous streaming.
2. Implement AVC SECURITY opcode
3. Implement AVC CONFIGURE, SET PLUG ASSOCIATION, PLAY opcodes
using the info from AVC Disc Media Type Specification - SACD 1.2 2001016
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post #18 of 34 Old 02-02-2013, 06:15 PM
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I have a oppo bdp-95, and I'm streaming sacd ISO files with foobar2000. The problem I am having is that I am having is stereo plays fine, but multichannel is static sounding for the first 5 seconds or so, but corrects quickly! Could this be a problem with my router, or my computer speed? Are there any suggestions out there? Please help...
(I haved tried streaming wireless, powerline adapter, and connected with LAN)
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post #19 of 34 Old 02-03-2013, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojos95159 View Post

I have a oppo bdp-95, and I'm streaming sacd ISO files with foobar2000

Curious to know how you are doing this.
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post #20 of 34 Old 02-20-2013, 03:19 PM
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I read that some guys have been successful streaming DSD native using foobar and/or jRiver and an htpc. I was under the assumption that foobar converted to pcm but the article I read stated that foobar now will play dsd native.

Is anyone hear doing this or can anyone shed some light on this? I am not averse to building my own HTPC just for this purpose but would like to know for sure if this is actually working.

Also, any issues with mch DSD?
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post #21 of 34 Old 02-27-2013, 03:00 AM
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I was also wondering the same thing. I want to install Foobar on my HTPC so I can play SACD ISO. Instead of having to burn them to dvd and play on my blu-ray player.

Audio output will be via HDMI using GT520 video card. Connected to my AV receiver that is capable of decoding DSD.

Just wanted to know if foobar2000 will output uncompressed lossless DSD from the SACD via HDMI which will be decoded by my AV receiver.
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post #22 of 34 Old 04-08-2013, 05:39 AM
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Oppo has recently released a beta firmware for the 103/105 players that allows DSF/DFF playback from an attached drive. My understanding is that the signal is not converted to PCM by the Oppo, but is passed on in native format. I don't yet own one of these players but giving very strong consideration to upgrading from my -93 for this feature alone.
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post #23 of 34 Old 04-08-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

Oppo has recently released a beta firmware for the 103/105 players that allows DSF/DFF playback from an attached drive. My understanding is that the signal is not converted to PCM by the Oppo, but is passed on in native format. I don't yet own one of these players but giving very strong consideration to upgrading from my -93 for this feature alone.

You can set the player to pass DSD or PCM with files, the same as setting it for SACD. SMB access to DSD files is also available.
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post #24 of 34 Old 04-08-2013, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

Oppo has recently released a beta firmware for the 103/105 players that allows DSF/DFF playback from an attached drive. My understanding is that the signal is not converted to PCM by the Oppo, but is passed on in native format. I don't yet own one of these players but giving very strong consideration to upgrading from my -93 for this feature alone.


So are these SACD-R ( ISO) files the Oppo 103/105 is reading off the attached drive???
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post #25 of 34 Old 04-08-2013, 06:00 PM
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^^
The dsf/dff files would be those ripped archive files from your personal SACD collection wink.gif or those few commercially available online.

Edit: I don't know if it will play a ripped ISO...........Perhaps someone who has the beta firmware can respond to that.
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post #26 of 34 Old 04-08-2013, 06:38 PM
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I just got the 103 for DSD file playback from local storage or via SMB network. I haven't tested either yet due to time. I tried previously streaming via foobar via DLNA and was unsuccessful on my 93. I don't know anyone who has successfully achieved streaming sacd iso wirelessly via foobar, and I am skeptical at best.

The thing I'm baffled about though is that the current beta firmware for the 103/105 allows DSD file playback, but it apparently kills sacd-r playback?!

One would have to have sacd iso's in order to rip their dsd files, so why kill the sacd-r playback feature?

My Oppo 93 and Sony 780 both play my sacd-r discs from my PS3 backup rips. Hopefully, Oppo will fix this issue in the next official fw release for the 103/105.

I use my 93 for playing DVD concert iso's, BD iso's for concerts, and DVD-audio iso's for music. The 103 will be used for dsd file playback almost exclusively.

Blu-ray movie playback on both my 93 and 103 is just an afterthought and bonus really. In short, both the Oppo 93 and 103 are really all about the music for me.
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post #27 of 34 Old 04-08-2013, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyJ View Post

^^
The dsf/dff files would be those ripped archive files from your personal SACD collection wink.gif or those few commercially available online.

Edit: I don't know if it will play a ripped ISO...........Perhaps someone who has the beta firmware can respond to that.

The Oppo doesn't play any type of ISO.

Foobar can play an SACD ISO and output 24/88 LPCM via DNLA, but there's no way to send a DSD stream via DNLA. It also supports DSF files with the latest version of the SACD plugin.

Foobar should also be capable of opening the SACD ISO and ripping the tracks to the format of your choice.
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post #28 of 34 Old 04-09-2013, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattroatl View Post

The thing I'm baffled about though is that the current beta firmware for the 103/105 allows DSD file playback, but it apparently kills sacd-r playback?! One would have to have sacd iso's in order to rip their dsd files, so why kill the sacd-r playback feature?

Just a guess but I suspect it has something to do with copyrights. Remember they made ISO playback of certain media possible with the -93/-95 but then were forced to remove the capability due to pressure from the movie studios. DSD is a generic format like PCM but the SACD media is a Sony/Philips proprietary product so an ISO of an SACD could be problematic for OPPO........
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post #29 of 34 Old 04-09-2013, 06:59 AM
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So I ripped my copy of Depeche Mode's "Black Celebration" last night and converted the sacd iso to dsf and dff files using sacd extract. The thing that struck me right away was that dsf files were more than twice the size as the same dff file, so using the dff file as the medium seemed like the logical choice to the Oppo 103. I also ripped the sacd iso to multichannel flac using foobar and flac frontend for comparison.

My results are mixed.

The dff file would not play in the Oppo. The dsf file played, but the rear channels were not playing properly. It was late, so I'll have to try another rip. The flac files played perfect for both my 93 and 103 via DLNA, and I could not tell the difference in sonic quality. I noticed a better sonic quality in the dsf file, but as I mentioned the rear channels were not playing all the sound if that makes sense.

I could not get SMB working on my 103. I'm sure it's user error. I can see the smb share through my iMac, and it prompts me for user and password. I enter my username and pw, but it says login error.


I'll be doing more tests tonight....
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post #30 of 34 Old 04-09-2013, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattroatl View Post

I just got the 103 for DSD file playback from local storage or via SMB network. I haven't tested either yet due to time. I tried previously streaming via foobar via DLNA and was unsuccessful on my 93. I don't know anyone who has successfully achieved streaming sacd iso wirelessly via foobar, and I am skeptical at best.

The thing I'm baffled about though is that the current beta firmware for the 103/105 allows DSD file playback, but it apparently kills sacd-r playback?!

One would have to have sacd iso's in order to rip their dsd files, so why kill the sacd-r playback feature?

My Oppo 93 and Sony 780 both play my sacd-r discs from my PS3 backup rips. Hopefully, Oppo will fix this issue in the next official fw release for the 103/105.

I use my 93 for playing DVD concert iso's, BD iso's for concerts, and DVD-audio iso's for music. The 103 will be used for dsd file playback almost exclusively.

Blu-ray movie playback on both my 93 and 103 is just an afterthought and bonus really. In short, both the Oppo 93 and 103 are really all about the music for me.


Streaming SACD ISO's via foobar is POSSIBLE wireless or wired.
Streaming SACD ISO's via foobar to an ISO capable Oppo 93/95 actually works very well.
This allows playback of ALL SACD-R's including those that are non ScarletBook.
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